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Fighting Games Weekly | Mar 2-8 | Capcom does the Monster Nash

GGS Karst. I feel like your a little too patient with Blanka, you've gotta go a little crazy on Sagat every once in a while. Sometimes after a jump in throw me just so its in the back of my head to tech and then you'll start hitting with the electricity to blow up my techs, since you weren't throwing I had no reason to do anything but block.

Some of your fireball reads were really impressive.
Haha, believe it or not, I did go for jump in throws quite a few times. Perhaps coincidentally, those were also the times you DPed me right after the MK. So you trained me not to go for those. :p

The first four matches I was just trying to remember my buttons. I am too patient, you are right. I always get into a situation where I am not sure if I want to move and lose my charge. Plus, I got hit by a huge number of fireballs.

Which reminds me of something. I think different games play better on different TV sizes. Smash on a big TV is perfect, but Street Fighter is harder to play in that setting. Smash on a small TV sucks.
 

Azure J

Member
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!

Again, please continue your analyses. I am taking a LOT from this, especially as I continue to tinker on design documents involving fighting game rosters and how to best communicate what characters in said roster are about in explicit and implicit manners.

Shit I would want you to extend this into other fighters just for the hell of it.
Melee/Smash in general pls
 

WarRock

Member
I am OK with the Eddie changes since I feel it's going more in a "monster/animal" direction than a "degrading human". It makes sense plot wise too.
 

Marz

Member
Haha, believe it or not, I did go for jump in throws quite a few times. Perhaps coincidentally, those were also the times you DPed me right after the MK. So you trained me not to go for those. :p

The first four matches I was just trying to remember my buttons. I am too patient, you are right. I always get into a situation where I am not sure if I want to move and lose my charge. Plus, I got hit by a huge number of fireballs.

Which reminds me of something. I think different games play better on different TV sizes. Smash on a big TV is perfect, but Street Fighter is harder to play in that setting. Smash on a small TV sucks.

Yea I know you don't play the game much, planning on getting back into it?

And yea a big TV is generally not a good idea for SF4...especially on PS3
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Take your dick out of your mouth long enough to think from a beginner's perspective. A huge number of people who start fighting games just push buttons. Teaching a basic button flow for combos is massive for getting those people into coherent gameplay practices.
LOL Every game that uses that stuff does it by default. It's nothing unique to marvel. It's literally the game at the most basic level.

Damn, Q, you eating your own dick again?

BAD, Q!

*smack*

Don't be stupid, I can't even bend down to do that!

I'm pretty sure I learned that from Sesame Street. Marvel players must've missed that class.
LOL
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!
It's not spamming, and is great to read. You can post what you want!
 

Marz

Member
Yea Marvel and Melee are very hard to even move properly in both without a large time investment and even then some people still don't have the natural ability to do it.

I don't just mean being able to plink consistently either but applying movement to actual matches with an opponent coming at you super fast and with assists and shit on the screen its pretty overwhelming at first.

SF and GG even at a low level I can at least move in general while learning the game.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
I don't just mean being able to plink consistently either but applying movement to actual matches with an opponent coming at you super fast and with assists and shit on the screen its pretty overwhelming at first.

Even at top level it can be overwhelming.
 
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!
Are you nuts? Feel free to talk about oldies who made it to Xrd and even oldies who still haven't crossed over. These posts are worth ten times the value of the average we get in here lol.
 

Exr

Member
Good posts Thomasaurus, better than reading about anime shows or what people think about animes or anything about animes really
 

bobohoro

Member
I appreciate the thought you're putting into your analyses, but I can't agree with an opinion just because it's well considered. For instance, perhaps the latest Potemkin design is intended to reflect the reality of someone who's been freed from slavery physically but not mentally/emotionally? Like an institutionalized prisoner who never really rejoins society despite being released. Also, soldiers are in the service of the government, which could be considered another form of slavery. So Potemkin still slumps. I feel like if you dissect anything for long enough you'll find inconsistencies, but what's more important in this context is the overall feel of a character as you play them.

To me, it looks more like they just wanted to keep his hurtbox and silhouette similar. Considering how drastically his design was changed, it makes sense to me that they'd want to keep the silhouette similar. If he were standing, his hurtbox would be way too tall (it's already large now lol). I can't say whether they forgot, didn't care about lore, or just made a tradeoff instead though, but that's how I see it.

I think the hurtbox/gameplay explanation is hitting closest to the truth, since Potemkin has been shown to stand upright when he is not wearing his collar, no? Of course the still slumping under military order bit is metaphoircally sound, but again, the old animation of Potemkin standing tall kinda throws it off. You could argue for a time factor, that the old animation was only shown way in the past and years of not taking off the collar made him get bent, but I'm not sure if that fits the story timeline.
 
Yea I know you don't play the game much, planning on getting back into it?

And yea a big TV is generally not a good idea for SF4...especially on PS3
Nah, I still don't like the game. I have lots of other stuff to focus on. But I don't want to completely forget it, either. My main focus is Smash, followed by Xrd.

LOL Every game that uses that stuff does it by default. It's nothing unique to marvel. It's literally the game at the most basic level.



Don't be stupid, I can't even bend down to do that!


LOL
Do you realize that you just agreed with me? The skills are transferrable and applicable.

Info is info, Thomasorus. Keep doing what you're doing.
the video 4r5 quoted is what I wanted you to see.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Thomasorus, you really insightful post/opinions. Keep it up man and why aren't you writing articles about this?!
Please don't let it be on EH...
Doesn't everyone lose to Helm Breaker tho

Even the player doing it

Be careful, Justin Wong might jizz all over you.

nah man, it was easy for justin to just pull wins straight out of the deepest, darkest regions of his ass against fchamp
especially that last game, oh boy was it ez pz

lol

You're the only person who answered my question.

jbxDLj8qgjnnyA.png

Its okay man, I'm here for you ;_;7

Marvel is the most worthy thing of being good at!

MAH MAN!
 

gutabo

Member
I'll stop the GGXrd talk for now, I feel like I'm spaming the topic and I don't like this. ;_; Feel free to ask things about design in fighting games if you want, I love this topic!

After you're done with guilty gear (all of it, yes even isuka) please do other series too :D
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Do you realize that you just agreed with me? The skills are transferrable and applicable.
Oh I was just saying it's so basic it's not even worth mentioning. Kinda like how saying SF teaches you how to do a hadoken motion.

The firebrand thing was a better example.
 

Sayad

Member
Those were some excellent reads Thomasorus, I'd just like add one thing about Pot's designs:
It's does not matter but it just emphasizes the fact that Arc designers didn't thought too much about all this while doing redesigns... Or didn't care at all.
I think this is a "lack of a single direction" problem, it's very obvious in Xrd with a lot of stuff and could very well be due to bigger project > a lot more people working on the game > less consistency in the overall design as a single guy can't get his way every single time.

For Pot's case, it's a conflict between the character design and the plot. It appear from the new design that the designer knew about the correlation between the metal collar and Pot's stance. He might have even tried to replicate it by putting a lot of metal in the new cloth collar and using a metal mask. The designer just had to work with what was forced on him, it was one of two evils:

- Create a completely new design with a proper stance(dropping the old iconic one) which could mess with character gameplay/balance(new body type and moves form, etc...).
- Create the bastardization they ended up with which is the old design with the new plot requirement painted on it.

All this because someone else(?) decided on a plot change that served absolutely no purpose in the story, he still follow orders like a slave, the change might just be because they didn't want to have a black slave character.
 
It's not spamming, and is great to read. You can post what you want!

Enzo-senpai noticed me!
As for others: thanks for the kind words, I'll try to post you a little something from time to time! And sorry Azure but I don't know Smash that much. ^^

Sayad: I agree with you!

---> Can't stop about all this so a little something before new thread. I mentioned while talking about Millia and Potemkin that you sometimes have to make choices to let your character express oneself and that sometimes, this choices will complicate your life as a designer while giving you a great character. Wrap Millia's arms around her body was a great example, Zappa doing the bridge position is the same. But all this relies on story, on clothes, on hair. How do you do this when you have nothing like this?

Well that's Twelve in Third Strike. Not a lot of people likes this character because when you look at his art, it's like someone added in a game an unfinished base character animators are using. It's like someone put the cedar doll into a game! But personal opinion again: Twelve is THE character that proves Capcom artists were maniacs in the late nineties, and it also the character that represents the dead end of the series.

First he has no voice, no hair, no clothes, no external element outside his own body to express movement. He could have details on his body like scars but they refused to compromise so he is totally white. Imagine this for a moment: give a character a personality just by animation, without relying on details. That's simply nuts and making a statement: Capcom was able to create so memorable characters and were so talented they just did it because the were able to do it. Make a character without giving him any visual characterization in the first place. That's denying everything Capcom was knowed for with his incredible character designs.

So how did they do? Twelve's moves are often a mix of human and animal, or transformation of his body into neutral objects. All his animations are then relying on a perfect respect of skeleton and muscles that will create shadows you need to give depth. All transformations from animal to object will have him coming back to his idle stance. That means you have to anticipate everything while drawing him and that's very difficult. Everything relies on the charisma, the thing that will make you think this character is interesting just because he is moving, not because he has an inspired character design and art. I mean look at him, he seems a bit dull:

twelve-ts-stance.gif


Then he starts walking and you go :mindblow:

twelve-walk.gif


In his jump, the animator must first regroup his legs. Notice that when jumping, he's crossing his arms. That means that EVERY MOVE done from this jump must start from a position with crossed arms! When jumping forward or backward, his arms are between his legs.

twelve-jump.gif
twelve-jump-hp.gif


And he's doing the same when crouching, forcing the animator to go more steps than normal:

twelve-crouching.gif
twelve-crouch-mk.gif


When you are doing a move in a fighting game, you will often have the character compressing the body and then stretch an arm or leg. Think about Ryu compressing himself while falling on the ground then stretching his leg while doing a down middle kick. Now look at this kick: it the fucking opposite.
He stretches the whole body, then compress by using the stretching.

twelve-bmk.gif



Now about the dead end thing.

You probably didn't played Twelve a lot but I think that this character is stinking ego. It's like a statement: Capcom did the best character designs but see, they could even do the best characters even if character design ceased to exist. More than that: twelve is artificial in the story of SF3.3, he's the ultimate fighter and can be cloned. In Third Strike there is this idea of characters trying to find an utility of the fighting knowledge they were teach in a period where you don't have to fight any more to live. It's the dead end for the classical fighter, the end of this mythology of people training their whole life in dojos to master something. The period is now the one where everything can be reproduced, and Twelve is the end result where fighters can be cloned, schools and fighting styles can be copied. The myth of the original fighter is dead and even if they were still original, what they dedicated their lives to is an useless dead end.

In a podcast (in french sorry) where we analysed Street Fighter 3, friends and I thought that you can't make a sequel to Third Strike, because Third Strike announced the end of the street fighter mythology in his own scenario. It's like the series fall into post-modernity with the end of major stories. The "villain" (Gill) wants to create a new world where there is not need to fight and thus fights his chaotic brother (Urien) and succeeds. This whole game is like the statement from the Street Fighter staff at this time that everything has been done, that now is the time where fighting doesn't serve any purpose any more. You can't write a sequel to this and I think Capcom knows it and that's the reason SF5 will be between SF4 and SF3.

So here you have it, my take on Twelve. He is the icon that kills everything we love in fighters, the messenger of the end of the world of Street Fighter. ^^


Edit : OVER FOR NOW I HAVE TO WORK. :p
 

LegatoB

Member
I'm not as up on my GG canon as I used to be, but I'm pretty sure Potemkin hasn't been a slave since the original Guilty Gear. By the time of GGX, Gabriel's coup had taken place and ol' Pochop was already a free man. He kept wearing the bomb collar as a sort of symbol of his devotion to the new order (which is why he could take it off in those animations). I'm guessing they dropped it for Xrd along with the other costume/character personality updates to reflect that it's been like 7 years since then.
 
I'm not as up on my GG canon as I used to be, but I'm pretty sure Potemkin hasn't been a slave since the original Guilty Gear. By the time of GGX, Gabriel's coup had taken place and ol' Pochop was already a free man. He kept wearing the bomb collar as a sort of symbol of his devotion to the new order (which is why he could take it off in those animations). I'm guessing they dropped it for Xrd along with the other costume/character personality updates to reflect that it's been like 7 years since then.

Just checked and you're right! I'm even more disappointed than before they removed the collar now that I remember this part of the story. -_-
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Just checked and you're right! I'm even more disappointed than before they removed the collar now that I remember this part of the story. -_-

Do you mind taking about animations for UMVC3 if you're up for it? I honestly have a great time reading your posts dude lol. Hell, I might even want to bounce some stuff off of you in PM if you're willing to give me some feedback on character design for a game I'm working on.
 

4r5

Member
On our way back from an Xrd tournament in a neighboring state, my friend and I were talking about how it's hard to do something new in a fighting game. Everything has already been done. We were trying to come up with something that hasn't been done yet, and he says, "What about a game where walking was really slow, but everyone had full screen attacks?" and I said, "You mean Mortal Kombat?"

DE84AB8C-F0E3-48B9-8320-12AEA5886917_zps0zaa0mr4.gif


P sure Potemkin's is hunched over to keep his silhouette inline with his old sprite. So that fighting him would feel the same as the old games. But I'm sad about Millia's new idle stance for the reasons you mentioned. They prob did it to show off her figure (bewbs) and it would be inconsequential to gameplay since no one ever idles with Millia anyways.
 
I'm not as up on my GG canon as I used to be, but I'm pretty sure Potemkin hasn't been a slave since the original Guilty Gear. By the time of GGX, Gabriel's coup had taken place and ol' Pochop was already a free man. He kept wearing the bomb collar as a sort of symbol of his devotion to the new order (which is why he could take it off in those animations). I'm guessing they dropped it for Xrd along with the other costume/character personality updates to reflect that it's been like 7 years since then.

I think they mentioned something about Potemkin not being able to control his body or being too strong or something, which is why he wears the armor. It's to control his power... Kinda like azrael in bb. I agree that I'm not a huge fan of this design though.
 

notworksafe

Member
On our way back from an Xrd tournament in a neighboring state, my friend and I were talking about how it's hard to do something new in a fighting game. Everything has already been done. We were trying to come up with something that hasn't been done yet, and he says, "What about a game where walking was really slow, but everyone had full screen attacks?" and I said, "You mean Mortal Kombat?"

DE84AB8C-F0E3-48B9-8320-12AEA5886917_zps0zaa0mr4.gif
That gif is from Injustice, dawg
 

WarRock

Member
In a podcast (in french sorry) where we analysed Street Fighter 3, friends and I thought that you can't make a sequel to Third Strike, because Third Strike announced the end of the street fighter mythology in his own scenario. It's like the series fall into post-modernity with the end of major stories. The "villain" (Gill) wants to create a new world where there is not need to fight and thus fights his chaotic brother (Urien) and succeeds. This whole game is like the statement from the Street Fighter staff at this time that everything has been done, that now is the time where fighting doesn't serve any purpose any more. You can't write a sequel to this and I think Capcom knows it and that's the reason SF5 will be between SF4 and SF3.
I can't agree completely with this when they also included Oro as the greatest master in a forgotten art (and Oro considers himself a rookie) that craps on almost everything fighting related shown in the series, made Ryu and Gouki's ending be "they'll keep improving forever" and keep giving us new faces and possibilities - Ryu motivates Alex to keep fighting while Ken has a pupil, Makoto is keeping the dream alive, Necro shows that an obsolete/old model is not trash - Twelve never kills him.

But it's a nice way to look at it.
 

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
No the magic prediction before that.

You mean the one where he predicts who wins the cointoss *after* the coin is tossed? he has another prediction in his other pocket where mike won the coin toss.

as for the matches, what a coincidence that they played the same person.

staged
 

Dahbomb

Member
You mean the one where he predicts who wins the cointoss *after* the coin is tossed? he has another prediction in his other pocket where mike won the coin toss.

as for the matches, what a coincidence that they played the same person.

staged
Of course it's staged (like all magic tricks)... it's still fun though.
 
I can't agree completely with this when they also included Oro as the greatest master in a forgotten art (and Oro considers himself a rookie) that craps on almost everything fighting related shown in the series, made Ryu and Gouki's ending be "they'll keep improving forever" and keep giving us new faces and possibilities - Ryu motivates Alex to keep fighting while Ken has a pupil, Makoto is keeping the dream alive, Necro shows that an obsolete/old model is not trash - Twelve never kills him.

But it's a nice way to look at it.

I think the conclusion I gave is the most pessimist one and is balanced with the "Fight for the future" subtitle, embodied in the stories you noted. As for Oro and "the survivors" they might work in a sequel but wouldn't that be the beginning of a whole new mythology, one that goes beyond the Street Fighter one and builds something new? (I LOVE how this game asks questions about itself, nice having a chat about this!)
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Anybody else find themselves completing inputs imprecisely? I've noticed for a long time that when I do an action like a fireball or dragon punch motion, I'll input the joystick motions but hit the attack button(s) slightly after finishing the final joystick motion rather than at the same time. Input leniency means my intended action comes out correctly, but it seems better to be as precise as possible with your inputs. I've tried to stop doing it, but it's really hard to do.
 
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