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Series x could cost $400

The point is that its as much about retaining existing customers as gaining new ones.

Hardcore fans will be the earliest adopters, and those are exactly the sort of people who already have years worth of subs stacked up and also are those most likely to happily pay a premium for the latest and greatest!

Then there's the issue that the more aggressively you price, the more pressure you put on legacy hardware in stock and the sales channels.

Its just not likely.
I red your answer a few times, I'm not sure if we agree or not...

The idea is about expanding the market, which is something they have... But they are also borderline irrelevant, so being agressive on price would be likely to speed up adoption, nobody is going to buy an Xbox one right now. However, for people to want the series x in the first place they need to deliver on the content side (not just the studios, they offer potential... But they have not delivered under Microsoft management yet).

Anyway I don't think that this is likely that they will make it 400, i even doubt it could be 500.
 
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Boss, wrong choice of words of mine. I apologize.

See a while ago, Phil Spencer said that Xbox saw Google and Amazon as their main competitors. How did the games news outlets frame it ? We all thought that he was speaking about Xcloud. There were memes on this.

We all know PS owners are spoilt by their exclusives. Why would you not put your best effort into capturing new prospective console owners ? Console gamers are deeply integrated into the ecosystem, they are difficult to get back. Entice the potential 1.3 billion PC gamers, dont slug it out with Sony. This is the market that Google and Amazon are targetting.

While I agree it's never been harder to prize people away from their ecosystems to another this gen I still believe ms main competitor is Sony I imagine they too will be trying to capture the same crowd next gen they are even releasing some of those exclusive onto pc now . I'm not really of the opinion Amazon or Google could topple ms/Sony in the gaming space console or pc they both just have too much experience from the get go.
 
Bernkastel Bernkastel Revenue is a bad parameter for judging. Profit margin and Revenue growth determine market cap or "worthness" to raise money.
(I will quote rough figures) IF Xbox is about 10% of MS revenues, it doesnt even make 1% of MS profit. In simpler words, Xbox division is not worth much on the balance sheets.
Xbox is important to MS because, it is the only non-enterprise, end-consumer business along with surface tablets they have. Its important for their brand-image in the younger public, and also they think they can make a bit of money by bringing pc gamers into console ecosystem. Then build their end-consumer ecosystem frm there (Video-Movie-Music-Game business ecosystem)
 

Bryank75

Banned
They can take the loss I believe... Remember that MS has to aquire lots of potential new customers and use their services like Gold and Gamepass to take in the $$. After all that's what makes profit.. not the console after all so $399.99 might be realistic.
Doubt its made any profit at all... at one dollar a year for most customers. The content isn't free...
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Bernkastel Bernkastel Revenue is a bad parameter for judging. Profit margin and Revenue growth determine market cap or "worthness" to raise money.
(I will quote rough figures) IF Xbox is about 10% of MS revenues, it doesnt even make 1% of MS profit. In simpler words, Xbox division is not worth much on the balance sheets.
Xbox is important to MS because, it is the only non-enterprise, end-consumer business along with surface tablets they have. Its important for their brand-image in the younger public, and also they think they can make a bit of money by bringing pc gamers into console ecosystem. Then build their end-consumer ecosystem frm there (Video-Movie-Music-Game business ecosystem)
That's not the way valuations work. Also, the Xbox division isn't split out like its own company, so trying to guess what it's worth is impossible at this point.

Never the less, company/division valuations are based on one part hype, one part long term viability, one part current assets and contribution.

Going by your opinion, a company like Tesla should be worth $0 because it's lost probably about $20 billion over the past 10+ years, yet it's the most valuable (or one of the most valuable) car companies on earth. And every tech company, bio tech company, and Sony (when they were losing money years back) should be worthless since many lose money every year.
 
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What video is this in reference to? In their dedicated Gears 5 XSX video the only Benchmark Screen they show is the 2080TI, which they say scored a bit better than the SX, and in the end compare the SX more closely to a base 2080



They Show 62 FPS here for the 2080 Ti., and in this video they say they don't have a screencap of the XS bench.

In regards to the Digital Foundry video. A user posted an analysis which compared the results of around 100fps on the series X, and then compared the Nvidia benchmarks. The conclusion was that series X was not benchmarked running at 4k resolution. It would have been benchmarked at 1080p or around that rez. The 2080 Ti, cannot touch 4k@100fps, nor can the best gpu on the market, the RTX Titan, reach near 100fps at 4k. Because of the timing of mentioning the series X reaching almost 100fps, and then talking about the game in 4k, made several people believe the game was running 4k@100fps.
 
That's not the way valuations work. Also, the Xbox division isn't split out like its own company, so trying to guess what it's worth is impossible at this point.

Never the less, company/division valuations are based on one part hype, one part long term viability, one part current assets and contribution.

Going by your opinion, a company like Tesla should be worth $0 because it's lost probably about $20 billion over the past 10+ years, yet it's the most valuable (or one of the most valuable) car companies on earth. And every tech company, bio tech company, and Sony (when they were losing money years back) should be worthless since many lose money every year.
I am pretty sure i can correctly judge why a company is valued more or valued less. Tesla is market king, because the balance sheets of other auto manufacturers like Ford looks pathetic. On the other hand, profitable company like Toyota using its cash to reinvent its productline every year to see the same figures, is an indication that change is in the air.

However if you ask me to clearly arrive at an valuation, i cant. I am not an accountant nor do i have access to balance sheets. All opinions here are based on approximations.
 
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Jayjayhd34

Member
Bruh (see the links posted above or google), Does PC count laptops ? I play Factario on my Macbook and then there is splix.io :messenger_sunglasses:. I play Nothing else. This year i am treating myself to an xbox.

There's currently 90 million steam users, theirs probably 1.3 billion windows users i suspect that where you got number from. You've also got to remember PC users have to potentially upgrade to an m.2 for next gen games for some that will mean rebuilding there whole rig, nothing is clear right now what will happen if m.2 becomes standard on PC, suppose it might be similar to the death of IDE drives.
 

Andodalf

Banned
In regards to the Digital Foundry video. A user posted an analysis which compared the results of around 100fps on the series X, and then compared the Nvidia benchmarks. The conclusion was that series X was not benchmarked running at 4k resolution. It would have been benchmarked at 1080p or around that rez. The 2080 Ti, cannot touch 4k@100fps, nor can the best gpu on the market, the RTX Titan, reach near 100fps at 4k. Because of the timing of mentioning the series X reaching almost 100fps, and then talking about the game in 4k, made several people believe the game was running 4k@100fps.

When did anyone say the Series X ran at 100fps in a benchmark? This video, which is the only one I know of directly about Gears 5 xsx, only showed the 2080 Ti bench, at 62 fps, and said the SX was worse. Either someone got confused or there is another video about this. In this video there is the benchmark, and the them talking about the 2080 comparison, new GPU features, and then how they heard the team was trying to make a 120 fps multiplayer mode, but that they had no demo. Don't really see how anyone got "near 100 fps at 4k" from it being slightly worse than 62 fps at 4k and there being a team working on a high frame rate mode. Id say the high frame rate multiplayer would not be unlike how the base Xbox one had a 30fps campaign but 60 fps multi with some sacrifices.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I am pretty sure i can correctly judge why a company is valued more or valued less. Tesla is market king, because the balance sheets of other auto manufacturers like Ford looks pathetic. On the other hand, profitable company like Toyota using its cash to reinvent its productline every year to see the same figures, is an indication that change is in the air.

However if you ask me to clearly arrive at an valuation, i cant. I am not an accountant nor do i have access to balance sheets. All opinions here are based on approximations.
If you're not an accountant then you shouldn't be claiming business expert.

As for Tesla, just to show how unpredictable valuations can be, it has around the same market cap as Toyota. A month ago, Tesla was worth way more when it was $900/share.

Toyota makes about $20 billion per year profit.
 

Jayjayhd34

Member
When did anyone say the Series X ran at 100fps in a benchmark? This video, which is the only one I know of directly about Gears 5 xsx, only showed the 2080 Ti bench, at 62 fps, and said the SX was worse. Either someone got confused or there is another video about this. In this video there is the benchmark, and the them talking about the 2080 comparison, new GPU features, and then how they heard the team was trying to make a 120 fps multiplayer mode, but that they had no demo. Don't really see how anyone got "near 100 fps at 4k" from it being slightly worse than 62 fps at 4k and there being a team working on a high frame rate mode. Id say the high frame rate multiplayer would not be unlike how the base Xbox one had a 30fps campaign but 60 fps multi with some sacrifices.

1080p 120fps target they achieved 101 fps
 

rofif

Banned
That's 90 million steam accounts. 11% on gtx 1060 is not too bad.
I am surprised only 1.7% have 2070 as I do. And only 2% use 4k monitors. Less than 2% vr headsets. Some really cool stats
Generally, PC is difficult platoform since there is huge variety os hardware, so it's easier to push hw change on console/tv crown. 4k? fuck ya all, all You can buy now are 4k tv's. That's a good and a bad thing. I've got 4k monitors myself since I like picture quality of 4k ips and I hate jaggies
 

Andodalf

Banned
1080p 120fps target they achieved 101 fps

Where is this from? DF never say anything I can find about high framerate other than MS is looking into it

The numbers certainly sound correct, I'd just love to find the source, really about anything High framerate Gears 5
 
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Jayjayhd34

Member
That's 90 million steam accounts. 11% on gtx 1060 is not too bad.
I am surprised only 1.7% have 2070 as I do. And only 2% use 4k monitors. Less than 2% vr headsets. Some really cool stats
Generally, PC is difficult platoform since there is huge variety os hardware, so it's easier to push hw change on console/tv crown. 4k? fuck ya all, all You can buy now are 4k tv's. That's a good and a bad thing. I've got 4k monitors myself since I like picture quality of 4k ips and I hate jaggies


4k monitors ? My TV feels like its being identified in the wrong way It demands recognised as what it is.
 
If you're not an accountant then you shouldn't be claiming business expert.

As for Tesla, just to show how unpredictable valuations can be, it has around the same market cap as Toyota. A month ago, Tesla was worth way more when it was $900/share.

Toyota makes about $20 billion per year profit.
Man, this is off-topic. Anyways,
See every company started as a small-enterprise(Microsoft and Apple, they all started in garages mate). They wouldn't grow into big corporations without investments frm market ! Would they ? Tesla is being hearalded as the next Toyota, that is why it commands such a price. It raises money by selling shares to fund its new factories.

Toyota and Microsoft had similar market cap in 2007, they made similar amount of profits. Where are they today ? Microsoft makes 45bn$ yearly, Toyota makes 15bn$ a year. Fast-farword few years, Microsoft will be making 100bn $ a year and with a 2 trillion dollar valuation. Toyota might have already been hurt by Tesla.
Sony has had more losses than profits for the past 15 years(if i can remember correctly, you can check google). They dont have any growth prospects, investors rightfully have downgraded it.
 

Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
I understand your point clearly, but you can't build an ecosystem by taking massive amounts of lose on the hope that people will subscribe to your gamepass system. There is no guarantee people are going to sign up at all.

Its an extremely risky venture. There is a chance people will buy into that system but what if others don't.
Your taking a full maximum loss.

Like i said before the tech in the xbox is unbelievable, i personally think its costs +600 easily to create that system, selling it for 400 is just to much of a lose, if you said 499 then i would say yes theirs a chance, thats resonable and the system you have in place can/will work.

I could even stretch to 450 but 400, No way, that tech in that box is better than most modern computers. Have you tried to assemble a component box with those specs for the pc side, your going into +1000 range..

I would want nothing better than that box to come out at 400 bucks, i am not rich, and would welcome it.
Just my common sense says no, its way to much of a lose per unit to take.
Games are a heavy risk anyway broski. Just like movies. Theres no guarantee of anything once your product goes in the wild. Doesn't stop games or movies from coming out though. But the risk never wavers. Never. In my opinion, it is risky but it would pay huge in the long run and they know it. They'll be able to put a strangle hole on the market through GP. Again, that's their end game. Subscriptions.
 

Jayjayhd34

Member
Where is this from? DF never say anything I can find about high framerate other than MS is looking into it

The numbers certainly sound correct, I'd just love to find the source, really about anything High framerate Gears 5


In just two weeks, the Coalition got Gears 5 running at Ultra-level PC settings with high-level textures and a ton of improvements. The Coalition is working closely to get UE4 running on Xbox Series X, and have produced in-game enhancements like UE4's new ray-traced global illumination lighting effects, improved contact shadows, and even 100FPS+ gaming. The studio wants to get 120FPS in multiplayer soon.

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71274/gears-5-runs-at-ultra-pc-settings-on-xbox-series/index.html

So if that's correct then its safe to assume 100fps figure is 1080p
 
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Andodalf

Banned
In just two weeks, the Coalition got Gears 5 running at Ultra-level PC settings with high-level textures and a ton of improvements. The Coalition is working closely to get UE4 running on Xbox Series X, and have produced in-game enhancements like UE4's new ray-traced global illumination lighting effects, improved contact shadows, and even 100FPS+ gaming. The studio wants to get 120FPS in multiplayer soon.

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71274/gears-5-runs-at-ultra-pc-settings-on-xbox-series/index.html

So if that's correct then its safe to assume 100fps figure is 1080p

looks like the original source is Xbox itself, nice.


any 120fps mode would need to be 1080 without making major concessions, like lower settings than the One version, but this article does make it pretty unclear what it was running with, base One X settings, the “new” Series X settings, or some new combination of settings to be more performant. I really hope to see this play out, even base Xbox one settings at 120 would be groundbreaking for console


But yeah all this is clearly not from DF, so whoever made that post back then was pretty off base
 
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kingpotato

Ask me about my Stream Deck
Its never worth it to buy a new console day 1. You get neutered sports games from previous years, lower budget intro games that any developer in their right mind won't sink too much into development for such a small user base and the worst build of parts in that generation.

Black Friday 2021 maybe if they prove its worth the purchase.

Watching your nephews and nieces flip when you have the latest toys for your kids is worth it IMO.
 
Xbox is important to MS because, it is the only non-enterprise, end-consumer business along with surface tablets they have. Its important for their brand-image in the younger public, and also they think they can make a bit of money by bringing pc gamers into console ecosystem. Then build their end-consumer ecosystem frm there (Video-Movie-Music-Game business ecosystem)

You forgot Windows :S

@DaGamez US is not the only market. Google being fined for monopoly, is just the begining. Big Tech is increasingly being looked at suspiciously.

thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best There is no objective yardstick to measure a predatory price. If a competitor is forced to go into losses trying to match your price ( when both of you are below manufacturing/servicing cost ) that is an unsustainable pricing. British Vodafaone was one of the recent victims of this.

Right. So by your own definition, would you or would you not say that Sony engaged in predatory pricing knowing competitors like SEGA would go into forced losses to match their price (and pricing MSRP for both being below manufacturing and servicing costs), during periods like PS1 vs Saturn? Because if you want to suggest the idea MS would be engaging in such a thing with Sony today if they priced XSX at $400, you must be willing to agree, given similar circumstances, Sony has at least already engaged in such tactics even if it was decades ago.

The point being not to use it as a means for MS to justify doing it today, but to show that if they committed such a thing as you suggest, they would not be the first platform holder to do so, as it would be a practice we can retroactively say has happened at least over two decades ago in the industry, going by your definition of what predatory pricing is.

Leveraging internal R&D to reduce prices reduces BOM or BOS itself. There is a limit to how much one can cook books. Anyways why go deep into this ?

Okay but even with that being the case, it is essentially an example of a company leveraging their financial power and money to force a competitor into losses, because said competitor would not have the financial means to leverage internal R&D. So the one being able to do so, can release for much cheaper. If that creates a reality where the competitor has to take heavy losses to stay competitive on price, again by your own definition, the former would be liable guilty of predatory pricing.

I brought up historical examples to show that there have been some potential precedents of what you suggest MS would be guilty of if they priced XSX at $399, even if in reality when said historical examples supposedly happened, the "guilty" party suffered no legal consequences. In fact regards platform holders there are only two instances of such seemingly happening that went to trail and where charges were brought up (NoA and MS) and only one of those was even in the gaming industry (NoA). Both are also over 20 years old.

There was a recent article, about the prospects of MS buying Walmart. There was a caveat that it would be best if MS bought a smaller player like Costco to avoid Anti-Trust Law. MS is projected to make 45-50bn$ PROFIT in FY20. It can raise billions by pledging its shares as collateral. Now if it uses this money to play around with prices, it is financial manipulation not investment. I am an employee at a big tech, even i would be opposed to such power being in the hands of few corporations.

Yes that would be a potential violation of anti-trust law if a company the size of MS purchased Walmart. And with today's relatively pro-corporate tendencies of the justice system in America I doubt MS would be found guilty in the way of such a monopolistic practice as they were found in the late '90s when it came to IE/Netscape.

However, any person can write up an article speculating one company buying another, doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. If the government didn't stop Disney from buying Fox (well, almost everything Fox outside of Fox News), I doubt they would do much these days to stop MS buying Walmart. But it would probably end up far more realistic if they purchased shares into Walmart or made financial investments into that company, of which there'd be limitations anyway. There's too much to the various aspects of Walmart as a business probably unfamiliar to a company like Microsoft to fully own and manage, at the very least they'd probably allow Walmart to remain its own entity and operate mostly autonomously.

I'm just spitballing the more realistic outcome to that type of deal, not that I'd favor it. Like you I don't like the idea of a few corporations holding so much power, it's partly why I disliked Disney buying 20th Century Fox (though look how well that's working out for them now, i.e not very well at all).
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I red your answer a few times, I'm not sure if we agree or not...

The idea is about expanding the market, which is something they have... But they are also borderline irrelevant, so being agressive on price would be likely to speed up adoption, nobody is going to buy an Xbox one right now. However, for people to want the series x in the first place they need to deliver on the content side (not just the studios, they offer potential... But they have not delivered under Microsoft management yet).

Anyway I don't think that this is likely that they will make it 400, i even doubt it could be 500.

I was just trying to explain why subsidizing hardware from the outset is just not a good business move. Above all else having to eat a heavy loss to incentivize hardware sales indicates a failure of forward planning, its just not ideal.

This gen Sony's been able to sell PS4's at a solid profit for most of its life-cycle, while comfortably leading in market share. That I'm pretty sure is the sort of result MS actually want!
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best Bruh, start a new thread for this. :messenger_smiling_horns: Otherwise, enough of legal-financial jagron for this thread. :messenger_unamused: What Clear Clear has said above is logical and common sense. I couldn't have said it better.

I havent heard of SEGA story. I was born in late 90's. I got the point you made. Heard of Transfer pricing & Arm's length Transaction? this is used mainly for international taxation. It concerns how subsidiaries or sub-units should transact with each other inside a corporation.

Interesting read for you :
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1516486
The focus is on the rules governing transfer pricing within the setting of international tax policy, and on those governing the treatment of excessive as well as predatory pricing, according to competition policy.
 
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Ten_Fold

Member
If they are releasing both the lockheart and the series X I don’t see the series X being $399. I could see them doing $449 to slightly undercut the ps5. With the lockheart being either $299 or $249. I personally feel it will come down to hardware availability. Since we will most likely have a shortage of next gen consoles. I can see the Xbox selling well if they can put out more consoles than Sony.
 

Tiamat2san

Member
It would be great.
I think it will be more in the $/€ 500 range.

They need to be at the same price as PS5 to have a chance.
 

Three

Member
An pro elite controller ... a piece of niche .

Anyway like I said months ago , I think they will. Subscription has shown them such a model works .
If lockhart is true series X is a niche premium too.

They have a subscription with a price where it doesn't matter what device you're playing on. Why would they lose money during launch converting their current devoted xbox one players to series X players at a loss? It makes no sense. They will get their money.
 
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quest

Not Banned from OT
To many assume lockheart is still launching this year or at all. With covid-19 even if lockheart was a thing i don't think Microsoft would have enough parts and manufacturing capacity for 2 models this fall. Both them and Sony will have enough issues with supply of 1 console the way it is. Also if Sony comes in at 399.99 lockheart is doa. Microsoft will have no choice but price match leaving no room for lockheart. If lockheart is real I don't expect to hear about until next year and only if Sony comes in at 499.99. Price wise what Sony comes in at Microsoft will match. They want price parity this generation after what happened last generation.
 

Arkage

Banned
It's one of those things where, Microsoft could do it, but it seems unlikely they would. This line from the article is needed context:

“From what I’ve seen, Sony’s going to have to charge $500 for their PS5, and Microsoft has a big balance sheet,” Pachter said, “if they want to cut the price by $100, just price below and subsidize the first ten million, they will.”

So he's saying MS could subsidize the first ten million. Not have the price permanently be $400, but rather advertise that they're giving you a bargain. This could potentially drum up good will, and give them a significant advantage in what is likely to be a depressed economy when the consoles launch. But yes they would take a big financial hit.
 

DESTROYA

Member
So Lockhart version is going to be $400, wonder how much the full XsX is going to cost?
No way the XsX will retail for $400
 

yurinka

Member
If Patcher said that, then we can confirm what makes more sense: Series X will cost at least $499.

I'd say that if sell it at $400 then I wouldn't understand why they would release a Lockhart (if it exists, btw I think it never existed) and why they would continue selling XBO X (MS said they plan to continue to make all their games for a couple of years for it).

I bet both Series X and PS5 will be sold at $499 and that Lockhart/Series S won't exist.
 
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Relativ9

Member
If Lockhart is real it won't be 399, as many have already said. What Pachter also seems to ignore is that Microsoft have historically been much less willing to subsidize a large part of the console cost. Sure they have a big war chest due to their windows and office business's, but that also means that the higher ups at Microsoft don't view the Xbox as essential and won't be willing to spend large amounts of capital on it.

Another point is that Microsoft is heavily invested in making Cloud services happen (Azure) and likely is foreseeing and working for a console free future...why would they want to take a big hit on each console sold to pump up install numbers if their long term plans dont include a need for a large install base.
 

Ogbert

Member
People who talk about how much money Microsoft has forget how little the company of Microsoft as a whole cares about Xbox.

Sony is MUCH more invested in PlayStation, as it's a larger portion of its business. Nintendo basically IS video games and nothing else. Xbox has never been more than a minor subdivision for Microsoft.

Yes, true. Certainly is the case and could continue to be the case.

But the fact remains that if MS decided to undercut Sony it could do so with ease.

I suppose it depends how much importance they place on regaining market share.
 
“if they want to cut the price by $100, just price below and subsidize the first ten million, they will.”

If they want to price it at $400, they will. Otherwise, they won't.

Expert veteran analysis by Michael Pachter.
 

Jtibh

Banned
The one X has been discontinued. so they


The one X has been discontinued. Retailers can't get new stock. So they are only going to be selling two SKU's going forward.

1. Lockhart at $199
2. Series X at $399

Lockhart replaces the One X
And thats why i wait with xbox and get the ps5 first.

Sony is good at supporting its plattform till the end where as microsoft always drops it halfways.
Kinect got discontinued xbox one now xbox s and if lockhart takes over xbox one x then that was their shortest lifecycle for a console.
How old is one x like 3 years old?
 

Justin9mm

Member
$400 Australian would be good.

KqPLMm9.gif
I wish, When it comes to tech / consoles the currency is never relative! It wouldn't matter if the console was $400 USD or $600 USD.. It will still be something between $599 and $699 AUD.
 

Ten_Fold

Member
And thats why i wait with xbox and get the ps5 first.

Sony is good at supporting its plattform till the end where as microsoft always drops it halfways.
Kinect got discontinued xbox one now xbox s and if lockhart takes over xbox one x then that was their shortest lifecycle for a console.
How old is one x like 3 years old?
I think Microsoft should’ve repackaged the One X an keep it alive. Now Kinect needed to go that shit was trash and they started to push it around like 2010 which I believe hurt the 360 in the end. Microsoft did support the 360 from 05 till like 2010. Now the Xbox one I can see why they stopped trying, they didn’t have anything and about time they started buying studios those games wouldn’t be ready till next gen. I’m going Xbox first this time unless Sony shows Legends of dragoon, or gravity rush 3. I’m not a fan of their movie games unfortunately.
 
If Lockhart is real it won't be 399, as many have already said. What Pachter also seems to ignore is that Microsoft have historically been much less willing to subsidize a large part of the console cost. Sure they have a big war chest due to their windows and office business's, but that also means that the higher ups at Microsoft don't view the Xbox as essential and won't be willing to spend large amounts of capital on it.

Okay, we need to clear the air on this because it's a long-running notion with real-world decisions that are the complete opposite of it. As in, if Xbox as a brand was not important to the company, why would they spend multi-millions of dollars in purchasing/setting up at least 15 studios, many of them new, specifically for gaming content? Why are they spending half a billion dollars on a single game in Halo: Infinite (granted that definitely probably includes marketing costs and engine costs as well)?

That doesn't sound like a company which has almost no regard for a gaming division to me. Yes compared to their other divisions like Windows, Office and server markets the Xbox side is not worth as much, but that is all relative. If the division were not worth it t them, they would not have pursued development into XSX and (allegedly) Lockhart to the level they have, either. Simply building a mid/top-range gaming PC in a box as a next-gen Steam machine at an affordable price would've been enough, no need to custom design an APU with AMD or tailor a specific implementation of their OS for just a gaming device if that were the case.

As for their historical tendencies for hardware subsidizing, well we know that wasn't the case with 360 as they sold it for at least a $125 loss (on the Premium model). The XBO sold at-cost, and we don't know what their intentions with the XSX are in that regard. However, Seeing as how the 360 and XBO had similar BOMs ($525, $471), and that XSX is already said to have a BOM of around $460 (could be a bit higher or a bit lower), and that we know for sure XBO was the first MS console sold at-cost at launch, I think it's fair to say the OG Xbox may've had a BOM notably north of its $299 MSRP. The fact the DVD remote had to be purchased separately at $30 to enable DVD playback is somewhat indicative of this (plus MS trying to pinch pennies on costs).

We all know that MS's pricing and marketing strategy with the XBO at launch was not what it needed to be, it was not positioned as a gaming-orientated device and the MSRP (as well as the design) reflected that. We also know MS is steering away from that this time around, so they are more likely to price XSX with at least a small loss per system sold. General BOM estimates seem to have it between $460 to $480 or so, going by sources like the Bloomberg article. Keeping that in mind and the reality that they have willingly taken subsidized hardware losses on the 360 and very likely OG Xbox as well, the probability they price XSX at least as low as $449 is honestly pretty favorable right now, even with Lockhart possibly being a thing.

It's much less likely they will price it at $399 because there is the chance of Lockhart happening, plus additional software and services-based means of subsidization they can use to supplement instead like Gamepass, but there's two historical precedents of them willing to take a noticeable loss on each system sold, versus one where they didn't (that one currently being the exception, not the rule). Since I don't think the OG Xbox had a BOM in excess of $100 over the MSRP, if the XSX follows either previous system's MSRP strategy it'd likely be OG Xbox's just...without needing you to spring $30 for a feature-accessing remote this time :p

Another point is that Microsoft is heavily invested in making Cloud services happen (Azure) and likely is foreseeing and working for a console free future...why would they want to take a big hit on each console sold to pump up install numbers if their long term plans dont include a need for a large install base.

Who said they're working towards a console-free future? They are probably working towards a future where console development costs are not as pricey as they are today and have traditionally been, which would mean some sort of tech medium has to be eventually established, but the idea of a console as a device to play the games on, regardless if it's running locally or streaming? Provided production costs could get low enough and it could be sold at even a slight profit, why would MS stop manufacturing such said console with their branding on it if it could mean more revenue and profit?

It might go against the concept of a console as we currently know them but consoles today have already changed drastically from what we knew them back with PS2, Gamecube etc. which were quite different from consoles like SNES, MegaDrive etc. Especially the current consoles, which have more in common with PC architectures than any have before them. In the mass market the definition of a console is always changing, whether we like it or not. That's just bound to happen as technology continues evolving and improving.

So your idea hinges on the notion that consoles as we know them won't change as time goes on, and that the same level of production costs associated with them today doesn't change in result to shifting evolution in the tech market. But we know both of those things are bound to adapt and change over time, so 10 years..maybe even 5 years from now (slim chance but still), we can have consoles that are affordable enough to produce that it'd make bad business sense for a company like MS (or Sony) to not continue making and selling them at mass making small profits on each unit in addition to the subscriptions and services, digital software sales etc. stacking on top of that.

The more vertical integration of your ecosystem you have the better, no matter what. Just look at companies like Nintendo for proof of that; controlling both the software and hardware side of things helps with fanbase retention and coalescing the fanbase to a common platform. Even if they were to at some point start providing their games on other devices, there would be brand identity to their hardware driving the purchase.

It's like, hey I can watch a Sony Pictures film or listen to a Sony Music album on any blu-ray player or MP3 device, but they still manufacture their own branded blu-ray players and MP3 Walkmans for a reason. There's still a suitable market for their branded devices of the sort, in spite of the software itself usable with other brand devices.
 

Jayjayhd34

Member
Okay, we need to clear the air on this because it's a long-running notion with real-world decisions that are the complete opposite of it. As in, if Xbox as a brand was not important to the company, why would they spend multi-millions of dollars in purchasing/setting up at least 15 studios, many of them new, specifically for gaming content? Why are they spending half a billion dollars on a single game in Halo: Infinite (granted that definitely probably includes marketing costs and engine costs as well)?

That doesn't sound like a company which has almost no regard for a gaming division to me. Yes compared to their other divisions like Windows, Office and server markets the Xbox side is not worth as much, but that is all relative. If the division were not worth it t them, they would not have pursued development into XSX and (allegedly) Lockhart to the level they have, either. Simply building a mid/top-range gaming PC in a box as a next-gen Steam machine at an affordable price would've been enough, no need to custom design an APU with AMD or tailor a specific implementation of their OS for just a gaming device if that were the case.

As for their historical tendencies for hardware subsidizing, well we know that wasn't the case with 360 as they sold it for at least a $125 loss (on the Premium model). The XBO sold at-cost, and we don't know what their intentions with the XSX are in that regard. However, Seeing as how the 360 and XBO had similar BOMs ($525, $471), and that XSX is already said to have a BOM of around $460 (could be a bit higher or a bit lower), and that we know for sure XBO was the first MS console sold at-cost at launch, I think it's fair to say the OG Xbox may've had a BOM notably north of its $299 MSRP. The fact the DVD remote had to be purchased separately at $30 to enable DVD playback is somewhat indicative of this (plus MS trying to pinch pennies on costs).

We all know that MS's pricing and marketing strategy with the XBO at launch was not what it needed to be, it was not positioned as a gaming-orientated device and the MSRP (as well as the design) reflected that. We also know MS is steering away from that this time around, so they are more likely to price XSX with at least a small loss per system sold. General BOM estimates seem to have it between $460 to $480 or so, going by sources like the Bloomberg article. Keeping that in mind and the reality that they have willingly taken subsidized hardware losses on the 360 and very likely OG Xbox as well, the probability they price XSX at least as low as $449 is honestly pretty favorable right now, even with Lockhart possibly being a thing.

It's much less likely they will price it at $399 because there is the chance of Lockhart happening, plus additional software and services-based means of subsidization they can use to supplement instead like Gamepass, but there's two historical precedents of them willing to take a noticeable loss on each system sold, versus one where they didn't (that one currently being the exception, not the rule). Since I don't think the OG Xbox had a BOM in excess of $100 over the MSRP, if the XSX follows either previous system's MSRP strategy it'd likely be OG Xbox's just...without needing you to spring $30 for a feature-accessing remote this time :p



Who said they're working towards a console-free future? They are probably working towards a future where console development costs are not as pricey as they are today and have traditionally been, which would mean some sort of tech medium has to be eventually established, but the idea of a console as a device to play the games on, regardless if it's running locally or streaming? Provided production costs could get low enough and it could be sold at even a slight profit, why would MS stop manufacturing such said console with their branding on it if it could mean more revenue and profit?

It might go against the concept of a console as we currently know them but consoles today have already changed drastically from what we knew them back with PS2, Gamecube etc. which were quite different from consoles like SNES, MegaDrive etc. Especially the current consoles, which have more in common with PC architectures than any have before them. In the mass market the definition of a console is always changing, whether we like it or not. That's just bound to happen as technology continues evolving and improving.

So your idea hinges on the notion that consoles as we know them won't change as time goes on, and that the same level of production costs associated with them today doesn't change in result to shifting evolution in the tech market. But we know both of those things are bound to adapt and change over time, so 10 years..maybe even 5 years from now (slim chance but still), we can have consoles that are affordable enough to produce that it'd make bad business sense for a company like MS (or Sony) to not continue making and selling them at mass making small profits on each unit in addition to the subscriptions and services, digital software sales etc. stacking on top of that.

The more vertical integration of your ecosystem you have the better, no matter what. Just look at companies like Nintendo for proof of that; controlling both the software and hardware side of things helps with fanbase retention and coalescing the fanbase to a common platform. Even if they were to at some point start providing their games on other devices, there would be brand identity to their hardware driving the purchase.

It's like, hey I can watch a Sony Pictures film or listen to a Sony Music album on any blu-ray player or MP3 device, but they still manufacture their own branded blu-ray players and MP3 Walkmans for a reason. There's still a suitable market for their branded devices of the sort, in spite of the software itself usable with other brand devices.

halo rumour is false and theirs no way the bom is 460
 
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