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[IbizaPocholo]

Peter Moore on how Xbox solved the Red Ring of Death

Ex-Xbox head on $1 billion gamble to save the Xbox 360

www.gamesradar.com

In a new interview as part of the final Edge Game Changers look back at console launches of the past, ex-Xbox Head Peter Moore has spoken about how the cost of fixing the Red Ring of Death was an astronomical $1.15bn. Yes, billion.

He told Edge Game Changers: "I presented to [then Microsoft CEO] Steve Ballmer: 'This is going to cost us $1.15bn to fix this – to protect the brand, to protect our reputation, to keep this business going'."

"You know, you expect to get your head blown off, but Steve is an astute businessman who recognizes that things can go wrong. Steve saw the big picture: it's not that things go wrong, it's how you fix it. And the moment I had to present the facts and the cost, saying, 'Look, this is what we think that it looks like…' Steve didn't blink, and rightly so."

Ballmer and Moore's gamble clearly paid off, as we await the launch of the Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S. Looking back with hindsight, Moore muses: "We're going to stand up, and we've got to put up if we truly believe that this is an industry worth Microsoft being in, and being in as a leader, you know? We're building a brand from nowhere, and the potential for this brand going forward is monstrous. And is [the RROD] a blip? It's more than a blip, and it's more than a speed bump, but fortunately, a company like Microsoft has the resources to be able to absorb it. I remember wondering when I was going to crater the stock price. The next day it barely moved."

"We'd budgeted a hundred dollars per unit just for the console to go back [and be fixed and returned]. That was the plan, to deliver a world-class customer experience that made you forget. Once you got your Xbox back, y'know, you forgot what had happened."

 

[SolidSlug]

Peter Moore on how Xbox solved the Red Ring of Death

Ex-Xbox head on $1 billion gamble to save the Xbox 360

www.gamesradar.com

In a new interview as part of the final Edge Game Changers look back at console launches of the past, ex-Xbox Head Peter Moore has spoken about how the cost of fixing the Red Ring of Death was an astronomical $1.15bn. Yes, billion.

He told Edge Game Changers: "I presented to [then Microsoft CEO] Steve Ballmer: 'This is going to cost us $1.15bn to fix this – to protect the brand, to protect our reputation, to keep this business going'."

"You know, you expect to get your head blown off, but Steve is an astute businessman who recognizes that things can go wrong. Steve saw the big picture: it's not that things go wrong, it's how you fix it. And the moment I had to present the facts and the cost, saying, 'Look, this is what we think that it looks like…' Steve didn't blink, and rightly so."

Ballmer and Moore's gamble clearly paid off, as we await the launch of the Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S. Looking back with hindsight, Moore muses: "We're going to stand up, and we've got to put up if we truly believe that this is an industry worth Microsoft being in, and being in as a leader, you know? We're building a brand from nowhere, and the potential for this brand going forward is monstrous. And is [the RROD] a blip? It's more than a blip, and it's more than a speed bump, but fortunately, a company like Microsoft has the resources to be able to absorb it. I remember wondering when I was going to crater the stock price. The next day it barely moved."

"We'd budgeted a hundred dollars per unit just for the console to go back [and be fixed and returned]. That was the plan, to deliver a world-class customer experience that made you forget. Once you got your Xbox back, y'know, you forgot what had happened."

It was rather a 2-billion dollars program dedicated to replacing units affected by the RROD.

And I must say that was a very responsible act by Microsoft.

 

[Justin9mm]

The thread title is misleading and should be changed. It sounds like they explain how they actually fixed the RROD as in physically.

Even Gamesradar's article title is misleading.

 

[ToadMan]

Peter Moore on how Xbox solved the Red Ring of Death

Ex-Xbox head on $1 billion gamble to save the Xbox 360

www.gamesradar.com

In a new interview as part of the final Edge Game Changers look back at console launches of the past, ex-Xbox Head Peter Moore has spoken about how the cost of fixing the Red Ring of Death was an astronomical $1.15bn. Yes, billion.

He told Edge Game Changers: "I presented to [then Microsoft CEO] Steve Ballmer: 'This is going to cost us $1.15bn to fix this – to protect the brand, to protect our reputation, to keep this business going'."

"You know, you expect to get your head blown off, but Steve is an astute businessman who recognizes that things can go wrong. Steve saw the big picture: it's not that things go wrong, it's how you fix it. And the moment I had to present the facts and the cost, saying, 'Look, this is what we think that it looks like…' Steve didn't blink, and rightly so."

Ballmer and Moore's gamble clearly paid off, as we await the launch of the Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S. Looking back with hindsight, Moore muses: "We're going to stand up, and we've got to put up if we truly believe that this is an industry worth Microsoft being in, and being in as a leader, you know? We're building a brand from nowhere, and the potential for this brand going forward is monstrous. And is [the RROD] a blip? It's more than a blip, and it's more than a speed bump, but fortunately, a company like Microsoft has the resources to be able to absorb it. I remember wondering when I was going to crater the stock price. The next day it barely moved."

"We'd budgeted a hundred dollars per unit just for the console to go back [and be fixed and returned]. That was the plan, to deliver a world-class customer experience that made you forget. Once you got your Xbox back, y'know, you forgot what had happened."

After my 360 RROD’d I never bothered to replace it - I switched to PS3 - and that meant I had no particular attachment to the Xbox brand in future gens.

$1.5bn may have been the direct cost but the intangible loss to the brand through lost good customers - like myself - is much more than that.

 

[Rodolink]

it happened to me 3 times in a row, but customer service was amazing and without hassle, just waited 1 week in between and they handled all the packing and posting, really great move.

 

[longdi]

My phat PS3 Ylod too.
That was just a bad time for chips due to some environmental saving process

Glad MS still believes in the long game under Phil.

 

[jaysius]

My phat PS3 Ylod too.
That was just a bad time for chips due to some environmental saving process

Glad MS still believes in the long game under Phil.

I had a friend whose PS3 YLOD and when he got it back backwards compatibility was dead for him, he also had to pay for the fix.

 

[HarryKS]

Not like they had much of a choice. You can't sell a defective product knowingly.

 

[FranXico]

My phat PS3 Ylod too.
That was just a bad time for chips due to some environmental saving process

Glad MS still believes in the long game under Phil.

Any attempt to compare the PS3 YLOD that some people would experience several years down the line, to the 360 RROD - that impacted a large percentage of consoles (estimates point to more than 30%) within months after launch - is incredibly dishonest.

 

[longdi]

Any attempt to compare the PS3 YLOD that some people would experience several years down the line, to the 360 RROD - that impacted a large percentage of consoles (estimates point to more than 30%) within months after launch - is incredibly dishonest.

Ps3 is the first console that died on me though.
As in the motherboard parts are dead, and you cant replace like the disc drive or power supply.

I felt the same pain as rrod'ers

 

[Gabbar Singh]

After my 360 RROD’d I never bothered to replace it - I switched to PS3 - and that meant I had no particular attachment to the Xbox brand in future gens.

$1.5bn may have been the direct cost but the intangible loss to the brand through lost good customers - like myself - is much more than that.

On one hand you got a company that owned up to mistake and forked out $1+ billion to resolve the issue. On the other hand you got a company that left you with a choice of if you want 'install other OS' feature on the PS3 then we will remove your console's access to PSN. IMO this was and still is a scummy move between the 2 companies when it came between Xbox 360 and PS3.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...linux-on-your-ps3-you-could-get-55-from-sony/

 

[ToadMan]

On one hand you got a company that owned up to mistake and forked out $1+ billion to resolve the issue. On the other hand you got a company that left you with a choice of if you want 'install other OS' feature on the PS3 then we will remove your console's access to PSN. IMO this was and still is a scummy move between the 2 companies when it came between Xbox 360 and PS3.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...linux-on-your-ps3-you-could-get-55-from-sony/

I cared not one jot and neither did the vast majority of PS3 users.

Ita laughable you even try and equate these 2 issues.

Keep digging ...

 

[Calverz]

Yea yea heard this story a million times. Lets hear what sony did about the YLOD on ps3 now shall we??

 

[Bittermich]

My phat PS3 Ylod too.
That was just a bad time for chips due to some environmental saving process

Glad MS still believes in the long game under Phil.

oh yeah, I had the same issue. No Linux, no BC anymore for me. Horrible situation

 

[cireza]

I had two 360 having problems, and two PS3 having problems. I can tell you the better experience about fixing these problems was with Microsoft. Having your console handled directly by UPS was very convenient.

For PS3 we had to return the consoles to the stores, and because the console had a very high failure rate as well, consoles were staking up in the stores and making management very complicated, and also the delays were pretty long. At least, that's how it was in France. Poor service from Sony.

 

[turtlepowa]

Not like they had much of a choice. You can't sell a defective product knowingly.

They could have stopped Xbox completely and refunded the buyers.

 

[The Hamburglar]

On one hand you got a company that owned up to mistake and forked out $1+ billion to resolve the issue. On the other hand you got a company that left you with a choice of if you want 'install other OS' feature on the PS3 then we will remove your console's access to PSN. IMO this was and still is a scummy move between the 2 companies when it came between Xbox 360 and PS3.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...linux-on-your-ps3-you-could-get-55-from-sony/

what a joke post . Of course sony won’t let you use psn if you want to install custom software.

 

[Burger]

Uhh yeah Peter sure. Why not explain why MS spent a VERY long time pretending there was no problem at all. Customer would call and complain, and be shipped out a replacement refurbish unit that had the same defect. All the while out right denying that there was an issue, when the Xbox community had easily proven there was issues with the BGA solder, which is why reflowing fixed the issue, temporarily.

 

[mejin]

MS is losing money with Xbox since forever, but it is what he said...MS can afford it.

 

[SoraNoKuni]

I still remember getting a second hand 360 then realizing it wasn't a jasper chip.

I limited my playtime and drilled holes on the back + replacing the tim just so it can have better thermals since I didn't have the money to waste on another console(Was like 14-15 yo)

I certainly don't miss it, I played a lot of games but always dreaded it will die on me.

Maybe the support in US
was good, but for second hand consoles or when out of warranty it was a disaster.

Then xone launched, yeah this brand is dead for me.

 

[mcz117chief]

I got both YLoD on PS3 and twice RRoD on the 360. I don't know a single person who actively used their Xbox and didn't get an RRoD, it was bound to happen to every single unit imo.

edit: oh yeah also my PS4 burned out

 

[M1chl]

My phat PS3 Ylod too.
That was just a bad time for chips due to some environmental saving process

Glad MS still believes in the long game under Phil.

Ehh it's not really fair, because with these consoles, there was this new initiative called RoHS and basically not many electronic from 2004-2008/9 lives today. It took time to perfect the lead-free solder.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

At first Microsoft denied it and they didn't want to fix them. They even went on Dutch TV trying to downplay the scandal.

But someone at Microsoft decided to do the right thing instead of going to court and tarnish the brand.

 

[Aidah]

At my house, we bought 7 Xbox 360s total. The first 3 and one of the second 3 had RROD, Microsoft didn't fix them though because they were imported.

 

[Aldynes]

Could someone elaborate on this? Wasn't it a Design flaw from conception early on? If i recall, they did work on the design first and had the shell/console figured out, but run into problems later on trying to cram all the tech in it without making it highly susceptible to heat issues, and they rushed it on top of that to make it early on the market, thermal paste was the only thing keeping it working...

Long story short I worked in retail at differents stores in France from 2005 to 2012 so I've experienced all the 7th generation in front row, and I can tell you it the ratio of faulty unit on the XBOX 360 was more than 1/2, it was truly bonkers, the best anecdote i have is one day in 2006 a customer came and bought a brand new XBOX 360 ( 20 Go PREMIUM ) came back a month later with a RROD got it replace with a brand NEW one, came back two weeks later with AGAIN the RROD, got a THIRD one BRAND NEW, the same day the guy called us on the phone to inform us he got the RROD a third time... Came back to the store and we tested the console, RROD.

The guy gave up and choose a refund to take a Wii instead in the end, Wii that was out of stock for a couple of months so he had to wait ( remember the Wii shortage??? )

And with all that mess, it was still a must own console, the 360 was awesome, 1 year of warranty was later prolonged to 3 years total for RROD, with return taking 2 to 3 weeks, so in the end it was somewhat reassuring enough as a gamer to dive in and pray your system don't die too soon neither too late before the warranty expires !

I've experienced it in 2008 myself while playing Halo 3, graphics suddenly looks weird like tiny dots everywhere on the textures and when i turned off the console to reboot the game, bam! RROD !

I later traded in my (now refurbished) Premium white 20 Go for the Slim Black 250 Go when there was a pretty good offer during summer 2011 to and though it cost me something like 100~150 € it still runs fine, built in HDMI Wi Fi and a good 250 Go hard drive...

...THEN KINECT HAPPENED

 

[sublimit]

I had two 360 having problems, and two PS3 having problems. I can tell you the better experience about fixing these problems was with Microsoft. Having your console handled directly by UPS was very convenient.

For PS3 we had to return the consoles to the stores, and because the console had a very high failure rate as well, consoles were staking up in the stores and making management very complicated, and also the delays were pretty long. At least, that's how it was in France. Poor service from Sony.

My phat PS3 yellow lighted when i was in the UK. My warranty had expired. I called support and they brought me a refurbished model on the very next day and i had to pay 160 pounds if i remember correctly.

 

[T-Cake]

I had three 360s and not a single one of them had RROD. I guess I was lucky.

 

[reinking]

I am going to guess the legal team was in that decision too.

 

[ThaGuy]

I have to say that this gens hardware has been pretty good but the accessories have been shit. I've went thru 4 official microsoft headsets, 3 microsoft controllers, and 1 joycon.

Now the PS2 and 360 had some shit hardware. Everyone I know who has those went thru at least two of them.

 

[GymWolf]

I had 3 console with that fucking rrod, one time was already beyond the warranty time...

 

[ReBurn]

I had a friend whose PS3 YLOD and when he got it back backwards compatibility was dead for him, he also had to pay for the fix.

That happened to me. My 60 GB PS3 YLOD and Sony charged me to fix it. I had a choice of paying $159 to fix my phat or $119 to replace it with a slim. I chose to have it repaired but they sent me a slim in return with a note that my console couldn't be fixed. So I lost BC. Then I had to spend days trying to get my money back because they didn't at least refund me the difference. The rep said I agreed to pay $159 for the repair even though they just swapped it for a refurb off the shelf.

That's when I stopped buying launch consoles. My PlayStation had the skipping FMV video issue and I had to pay to fix that. My PS2 died a month after the original warranty expired due to the bad drive issue and I had to pay to repair it, but I got my money back after Sony was sued. My 360 got RROD, then my PS3 got YLOD. I remember the old neogaf telling me that it didn't happen to them and it was my fault because I didn't take care of my consoles when these were all well established hardware faults. Now I let other people be beta testers.

 

[mansoor1980]

really enjoyed playing games on the 360 it was amazing console with an excellent library of games but got the RROD after 3 months got it repaired but that lasted only 2 more months.......................the lesson i learned was not to buy a console near launch

 

[Burger]

Could someone elaborate on this? Wasn't it a Design flaw from conception early on? If i recall, they did work on the design first and had the shell/console figured out, but run into problems later on trying to cram all the tech in it without making it highly susceptible to heat issues, and they rushed it on top of that to make it early on the market, thermal paste was the only thing keeping it working...

Long story short I worked in retail at differents stores in France from 2005 to 2012 so I've experienced all the 7th generation in front row, and I can tell you it the ratio of faulty unit on the XBOX 360 was more than 1/2, it was truly bonkers, the best anecdote i have is one day in 2006 a customer came and bought a brand new XBOX 360 ( 20 Go PREMIUM ) came back a month later with a RROD got it replace with a brand NEW one, came back two weeks later with AGAIN the RROD, got a THIRD one BRAND NEW, the same day the guy called us on the phone to inform us he got the RROD a third time... Came back to the store and we tested the console, RROD.

The guy gave up and choose a refund to take a Wii instead in the end, Wii that was out of stock for a couple of months so he had to wait ( remember the Wii shortage??? )

And with all that mess, it was still a must own console, the 360 was awesome, 1 year of warranty was later prolonged to 3 years total for RROD, with return taking 2 to 3 weeks, so in the end it was somewhat reassuring enough as a gamer to dive in and pray your system don't die too soon neither too late before the warranty expires !

I've experienced it in 2008 myself while playing Halo 3, graphics suddenly looks weird like tiny dots everywhere on the textures and when i turned off the console to reboot the game, bam! RROD !

I later traded in my (now refurbished) Premium white 20 Go for the Slim Black 250 Go when there was a pretty good offer during summer 2011 to and though it cost me something like 100~150 € it still runs fine, built in HDMI Wi Fi and a good 250 Go hard drive...

...THEN KINECT HAPPENED

The 360 chipset was hot, and the entire system as a whole was rather poorly designed, with poor tolerances and poor testing. It was a high end gaming pc crammed into a small form factor - remember how the original Xbox was relentleslly mocked for being a beast? Microsoft didn't want to repeat that. This hot console was then shoved into entertainment units, on the carpet and got even hotter.

Coupled with a low quality solder that was rather new at the time, the chipset would essentially become disconnected from the motherboard through hairline cracks.

Microsoft has always disputed that the solder was an issue, but the RROD was essentially "Hey, the CPU or RAM broke" - and people were able to recover their systems by wrapping them in a towel for a while, remelting the BGA and reconnecting the CPU (for a while).

 

[TwiztidElf]

Don Mattrick damaged the Xbox brand far more than RROD did.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

They "fixed" it by changing the problem to the E 74 error (which did eventually got added to the warranty). I believe the S was the first revision that actually took care of the problem.

 

[ReBurn]

The 360 chipset was hot, and the entire system as a whole was rather poorly designed, with poor tolerances and poor testing. It was a high end gaming pc crammed into a small form factor - remember how the original Xbox was relentleslly mocked for being a beast? Microsoft didn't want to repeat that. This hot console was then shoved into entertainment units, on the carpet and got even hotter.

Coupled with a low quality solder that was rather new at the time, the chipset would essentially become disconnected from the motherboard through hairline cracks.

Microsoft has always disputed that the solder was an issue, but the RROD was essentially "Hey, the CPU or RAM broke" - and people were able to recover their systems by wrapping them in a towel for a while, remelting the BGA and reconnecting the CPU (for a while).

The 360 wasn't like a gaming PC at all. The CPU architecture was RISC-based with an array processing focus that wasn't like what was in PC's at the time. More like a Mac before their move to Intel chips. It was closer to server-based systems of the time. The GPU was highly customized as well. It was pretty esoteric silicon.

The issue was heat more than overall quality of the components. You can construct a device like a tank but if you don't control heat the thing is going to fail. If it would have had better airflow and heat dissipation the solder probably would have been fine for a lot longer.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Don Mattrick damaged the Xbox brand far more than RROD did.

Don didn't seem to be in charge, I think that was all Ballmer's ideas and he was just the fall guy.

 

[Andodalf]

I got both YLoD on PS3 and twice RRoD on the 360. I don't know a single person who actively used their Xbox and didn't get an RRoD, it was bound to happen to every single unit imo.

edit: oh yeah also my PS4 burned out

I heavily used my 360 and it finally failed due to a disk drive. Got a replacement that works to this day

 

[mcz117chief]

I heavily used my 360 and it finally failed due to a disk drive. Got a replacement that works to this day

You have the original one and it still works? Crazy, I genuinely thought it would blow up for everyone sooner or later.

 

[Flintty]

I watched or read a similar interview with him before. It was the right call and yeah, it was world class customer service when mine went RRoD.

 

[Black_Stride]

You have the original one and it still works? Crazy, I genuinely thought it would blow up for everyone sooner or later.

My OG still works after sending it back to get that ghetto heatsink addition.

I opened it up again and added even more ghetto fans to and side intakes because fuck it why not.

Got this exact kit and replaced all LEDs with blue as well.

Should mention I got an Elite not long after my og RRoD'd so it became my experimental box for leaked games/demos custom firmware and all that.

 

[Trimesh]

The 360 chipset was hot, and the entire system as a whole was rather poorly designed, with poor tolerances and poor testing. It was a high end gaming pc crammed into a small form factor - remember how the original Xbox was relentleslly mocked for being a beast? Microsoft didn't want to repeat that. This hot console was then shoved into entertainment units, on the carpet and got even hotter.

Coupled with a low quality solder that was rather new at the time, the chipset would essentially become disconnected from the motherboard through hairline cracks.

Microsoft has always disputed that the solder was an issue, but the RROD was essentially "Hey, the CPU or RAM broke" - and people were able to recover their systems by wrapping them in a towel for a while, remelting the BGA and reconnecting the CPU (for a while).

Blaming it on the solder is, at best, a gross oversimplification. First of all, thermal stress induced cracking of solder joints was a known problem for a long time - there were papers being written about it in the early '90s, but it was considered an issue that was only of concern for the most extreme sort of high-reliability applications. There were some good reasons for thinking this at the time - most chips at that point were not clock gated and were basically subjected to a single thermal cycle for each power cycle. You turn it on, it gets hot, the joints are stressed and then this condition persists until it's turned off again.
Yes, you could induce failures, but mapping them onto the expected usage suggested that they were going to take so long to occur that the product would have passed it's useful life by then anyway, so no reason to worry about it.

Then a bunch of things happened at once - device densities got much higher and the devices got faster, so they were dissipating much more heat in smaller and smaller areas. Designers started implementing extensive clock gating so you could selectively power down parts of the chip when they weren't needed - this had the potential to drastically decrease power consumption, but also resulted in the violation of the "one thermal cycle per power cycle" assumption, because with clock gating the part could be subjected to large numbers of thermal cycles in a short time - for something like a GPU, something as simple as turning around from looking at a wall to look at a complex scene instead could cause a huge increase in power consumption and hence thermal dissipation.

Then you had the RoHS solder which is significantly less ductile and hence has a greater propensity for stress cracking. This was also the point that high-power semiconductors started to be used in large quantities in domestic settings where noise control was important - if you were running a high power device in a data center you can just use lots of cooling, but this isn't really an option for a box that sits under your TV because people get pissed off if it starts making sounds like a jet engine.

Finally, in the specific case of the 360 there were also some very poor design choices like using a low-profile heatsink on the GPU and using single fan duct that cooled both the CPU and GPU with a lot more back pressure on the GPU side because of the limited clearance imposed by the DVD drive. This resulted in large heatsink temperature excursions which accelerated the stress effects on the solder.

To make it clear, MS are far from the only company that had problems with this - for example, there were a bunch of nVidia laptop GPUs from around the same time frame that suffered from high failure rates for very similar reasons (high power parts in small spaces with limited airflow and a design preference for silence over cooling).

 

[oldergamer]

MS is losing money with Xbox since forever, but it is what he said...MS can afford it.

Incorrect.

 

[Max_Po]

I cared not one jot and neither did the vast majority of PS3 users.

Ita laughable you even try and equate these 2 issues.

Keep digging ...

Agree.. no one gave a rat's ass about OtherOS. It had blocked GPU and only people who used it were non gamers for unix server clusters.

The 360 RRoD was the biggest horse shit in this industry. My console RROD on Dec 22 2005. I was out of return period of 14 days and MS had not sorted out their replacements process in Canada.

Even if you do get one replaced it would RROD again.
Once I sent in my HDD with Repair request as I had saves... they told me over the phone not to worry I will get it back as each repair request is tracked.
I had to file a request with bbb to get a filthy nasty scratched 20 gig ... hdd back.

Basically MS solved the issue by redesigning the 360...
I had all of the revisions giving problems


Falcon Zypher Jasper and what not... Thankfully my New Halo Reach ed is still mint and kicking ass.

 

[Burger]

The 360 wasn't like a gaming PC at all. The CPU architecture was RISC-based with an array processing focus that wasn't like what was in PC's at the time. More like a Mac before their move to Intel chips. It was closer to server-based systems of the time. The GPU was highly customized as well. It was pretty esoteric silicon.

The issue was heat more than overall quality of the components. You can construct a device like a tank but if you don't control heat the thing is going to fail. If it would have had better airflow and heat dissipation the solder probably would have been fine for a lot longer.

I meant in terms of it's power/thermal performance (at the time), not the architecture.

Blaming it on the solder is, at best, a gross oversimplification. First of all, thermal stress induced cracking of solder joints was a known problem for a long time - there were papers being written about it in the early '90s, but it was considered an issue that was only of concern for the most extreme sort of high-reliability applications. There were some good reasons for thinking this at the time - most chips at that point were not clock gated and were basically subjected to a single thermal cycle for each power cycle. You turn it on, it gets hot, the joints are stressed and then this condition persists until it's turned off again.
Yes, you could induce failures, but mapping them onto the expected usage suggested that they were going to take so long to occur that the product would have passed it's useful life by then anyway, so no reason to worry about it.

Then a bunch of things happened at once - device densities got much higher and the devices got faster, so they were dissipating much more heat in smaller and smaller areas. Designers started implementing extensive clock gating so you could selectively power down parts of the chip when they weren't needed - this had the potential to drastically decrease power consumption, but also resulted in the violation of the "one thermal cycle per power cycle" assumption, because with clock gating the part could be subjected to large numbers of thermal cycles in a short time - for something like a GPU, something as simple as turning around from looking at a wall to look at a complex scene instead could cause a huge increase in power consumption and hence thermal dissipation.

Then you had the RoHS solder which is significantly less ductile and hence has a greater propensity for stress cracking. This was also the point that high-power semiconductors started to be used in large quantities in domestic settings where noise control was important - if you were running a high power device in a data center you can just use lots of cooling, but this isn't really an option for a box that sits under your TV because people get pissed off if it starts making sounds like a jet engine.

Finally, in the specific case of the 360 there were also some very poor design choices like using a low-profile heatsink on the GPU and using single fan duct that cooled both the CPU and GPU with a lot more back pressure on the GPU side because of the limited clearance imposed by the DVD drive. This resulted in large heatsink temperature excursions which accelerated the stress effects on the solder.

To make it clear, MS are far from the only company that had problems with this - for example, there were a bunch of nVidia laptop GPUs from around the same time frame that suffered from high failure rates for very similar reasons (high power parts in small spaces with limited airflow and a design preference for silence over cooling).

I'm not sure if you are disputing me or not, but in summary, poor design, too hot which lead to interface problems between chipset and mainboard - which is exactly what I described.

It wasn't just the solder, but it did play a part. Everything I ever saw written about this problem wasn't that the chipsets were failing, although they may have in a small percentage cases. It was always an interface problem with the BGA.

The 360 was a complex machine, and the failure was complex - with a combination of bad decisions causing the failure of the BGA interface.

 

[Grinchy]

My little brother's console RROD'd like a week after the one-year warranty was up. MS told him he was shit out of luck. Then, like a week later, they announced they were forced to fix everyone's pieces of shit so he was able to get a new one.

I just remember how upset he was after going through the hassle with customer service and being told to go fuck yourself because it was one week past their legal responsibility.

 

[sixamp]

My 2 launch day amazon 360's lasted over 3 yrs with hard use,Then rrod. I miss 360

 

[ReBurn]

My little brother's console RROD'd like a week after the one-year warranty was up. MS told him he was shit out of luck. Then, like a week later, they announced they were forced to fix everyone's pieces of shit so he was able to get a new one.

I just remember how upset he was after going through the hassle with customer service and being told to go fuck yourself because it was one week past their legal responsibility.

That was my experience with the PS2. One week after warranty ended it got dre and Sony was like "sucks to be you. If it helps you feel better it will only be cost half the cost of a new one to fix yours." I had too many games to not fix it. At least I ultimately got my money back.

 

[Trimesh]

I'm not sure if you are disputing me or not, but in summary, poor design, too hot which lead to interface problems between chipset and mainboard - which is exactly what I described.

It wasn't just the solder, but it did play a part. Everything I ever saw written about this problem wasn't that the chipsets were failing, although they may have in a small percentage cases. It was always an interface problem with the BGA.

The 360 was a complex machine, and the failure was complex - with a combination of bad decisions causing the failure of the BGA interface.

I think I summed it up in the first line.

"Blaming it on the solder is, at best, a gross oversimplification. "

So I'm mostly agreeing with you - but with the proviso that if all the other conditions were the same the unit would have had an excessive failure rate even if it had been constructed using SnPb solder (and, in fact, people that reballed the parts using that found that it still failed - just not as quickly).

 

[ethomaz]

So they never fixed it by the text of the OP instead they replaced the failed unit.