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Most impressive 3D-Games for the Sega Saturn

  • Thread starter SpongebobSquaredance
  • Start date
Ahhh well. This thread remind me my deception of playing Daytona on it and seeing all that draw in pop up. Na, it was not a good 3D machine. But Powerslave was really cool!
TBF, neither Saturn nor PlayStation were "real" 3D systems; Saturn in particular would distort quadrilateral sprites and map & scale them to screen space. Think of their Super Scaler technology from Outrun/Outrunners, Space Harrier etc. but on steroids. Combined with the tiling and background rotation abilities of VDP2.

PlayStation was somewhat similar, difference being it had a fixed-point math co-processor (the GTE) that could handle math calcs in one spot (within the CPU) instead of travelling over the system bus between two distinct locations (CPU & DSP in Saturn). The fact the GTE used fixed-point math is actually the reason for PS1's distinct texture shimmering; at any given moment the textures are being calculated for whole integer values with only the level of granularity integer values provide.

On Saturn you needed to shuffle math calcs between CPU and the DSP if you wanted good speed, but getting the best in that setup meant programming in assembly and learning the DSP (which could handle six instructions per cycle). Even some guys like this dude who worked on Sonic Jam for Saturn are in the dark about some of the features of the Saturn's DSP and they were among one of the best programmers in using it!

But back to neither being "real" 3D systems; well even for their time, neither had any type of depth perception whatsoever because they lacked Z-buffering in hardware, something the N64 featured. Basically, neither Saturn nor PS1 know "where" in 3D space any two objects are in relation to each other, so it's 100% up to the software programmers to keep track of this and instruct the systems where objects are and make it appear as though the objects are where they should be. However they both had DMA to their framebuffers like the Jaguar, which was very important for 5th-gen consoles.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
But blatantly lying about it was the point where i stopped reading game reviews and started disliking game journalists before it was cool.
Turok 3 actually looks worse than Turok 2 but in favor of this, it runs a lot better. The developers were aware it seems. But yeah, game journalists are wack.

When talking about Saturn (a system that especially shined with 2D games) there was often criticism that was way too harsh with very weird reasons given for it. Gamespot, in particular, seemed to hate the Saturn for some reason:




 
OT, but how would you think a natively developed port of Gradius Gaiden would look on the Saturn?

The SotN port was hot garbage coming from a straight port of polygon based assets and a slapdash resolution retrofit. (Though IIRC Esco's SotN remaster uses native sprite assets.)
 
So, we all know the deal: Sega rushed the Saturn. The Saturn can't do 3D. The Playstation has better specs.

All of this is debatable, but there was some truth to it. Dual processing was an interesting idea, but the 3rd party developers had no experience with it, which made development way more complex than it needed to be. To add to the confusion, Sega failed to give 3rd party developers a true development kit at first, and in general, the communication was bad. Tools weren't updated regularly either. Add the price tag of $400, and it is no wonder that the system failed compared to the cheaper and easy-to-develop-for Playstation.
Sonic Xtreme had the chance to turn the wheel, but it never released.

It was a complete disaster, but in hindsight, it's actually a nice system with a ton of great games and some developers actually made a great effort to show the system's capabilities.
This brings us to the topic: The most technically impressive 3D games for the Saturn.

Sega Rally


Powerslave/Exhumed


Panzer Dragoon Saga



Feel free to add!

Cheers!


Actually most games were poor compromises, because developers didn't have the funding or time to work on two different chip ecosystems (for development) at least the jaguar chips overlapped though they were capped by the Bus and what could boe processed at once.

There were issues with the video player that came with the Saturn 2, MK devs said they had to use more resources for the cutscenes and it took longer to encode.

Most games would have a look that could work with still screens in some areas but during gameplay the graphical quality was mostly inconsistent outside 2D games and shaded polygons which is what the system was immediately made for. The panic of the Jaguar and the PS1 later had really screwed up Segas already incompetent management they were already bleeding money when the Saturn came out, the 32 could have been salvaged as a bridge and a way to transfer devs from one to the other since there were similarities but Sega decided to drop that idea.

The N64 has the reputation of bad frame rates mostly because of a few games by RARE and the shitty Turok 2. Because these games were so popular, it got that rep.

Let's not revise history here the N64 was filled with low frame games or games that dropped or studdered, you could find reviews and commentary on that for multiple games. As well as commentary from third parties later.

Sure it wasn't as consistently bad as say Banjo tooie was, but it had problems.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
StateofMajora StateofMajora

I think it looks better, to be honest. Draw distance was better, but Turok 3 was also way more linear. Kinda evens it out. Turok 2 had more oomph to it.
They both got their pros and cons. Turok 3 had some scenes that were still mighty impressive for the hardware (like the scene with the train), but I think Turok 2 does a lot more given the openness of the levels.



 
StateofMajora StateofMajora

I think it looks better, to be honest. Draw distance was better, but Turok 3 was also way more linear. Kinda evens it out. Turok 2 had more oomph to it.
They both got their pros and cons. Turok 3 had some scenes that were still mighty impressive for the hardware (like the scene with the train), but I think Turok 2 does a lot more given the openness of the levels.




I mean, turok 3 has those jungle areas as well. Complete with very little fog in comparison, and just more detail.

Tbh, turok 3 is my favorite right now. I would not want to play turok 2 on actual n64 hardware again lol. Never beat that one, just kinda got fed up. Have it on switch, yet to play it.
 

SpiceRacz

Member
Home to, in my opinion, the best soccer game ever made:

220px-Sega_Worldwide_Soccer_%2797_Coverart.png
 

SpiceRacz

Member
I kind of disagree with that assessment. I can't even name 10 great games (and even the handful everybody keeps quoting are debatable imo). The system has some interesting curiosities, but killer-apps those aren't.

Let's be honest, I love the Sega and the Dreamcast, but the Saturn was crap.

That's interesting. I would argue the Saturn has a better library than Dreamcast.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
Have it on switch, yet to play it.
The remaster is the way to go. Adds consistent framerate, better controls, and some QOL changes. Would love to see a Turok 3 remaster as well, but apparently, it is not as easy to port that one over. In general, I enjoy these type of remasters that keep the original intact and build on that while improving aspects that needed to be addressed (like the framerate and draw distance of Turok 2).
 

RetroAV

Member
I didn’t even know this existed, was that just a prototype befor getting moved to the Dreamcast?
https://www.shenmuedojo.com/media/press-events-1999-2003/shin-ishikawa-interview-2003/
Shin Ishikawa

Q: Have you worked on the previous DC Shenmue games?
A: I have worked on all Shenmue versions.

Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about the unreleased Saturn version? How long had it been worked on, and did it use the experimental Saturn expansion cartridge or the 4meg RAM card?
A: Nearly two years of work was put in the Saturn version. It didn’t use a booster cartridge nor did it use the 4meg RAM card, so yes, the game was programmed for, and the footage seen as an extra on Shenmue II is from the code running on a stock Saturn.
 

SirTerry-T

Member
TBF, neither Saturn nor PlayStation were "real" 3D systems; Saturn in particular would distort quadrilateral sprites and map & scale them to screen space. Think of their Super Scaler technology from Outrun/Outrunners, Space Harrier etc. but on steroids. Combined with the tiling and background rotation abilities of VDP2.

PlayStation was somewhat similar, difference being it had a fixed-point math co-processor (the GTE) that could handle math calcs in one spot (within the CPU) instead of travelling over the system bus between two distinct locations (CPU & DSP in Saturn). The fact the GTE used fixed-point math is actually the reason for PS1's distinct texture shimmering; at any given moment the textures are being calculated for whole integer values with only the level of granularity integer values provide.

On Saturn you needed to shuffle math calcs between CPU and the DSP if you wanted good speed, but getting the best in that setup meant programming in assembly and learning the DSP (which could handle six instructions per cycle). Even some guys like this dude who worked on Sonic Jam for Saturn are in the dark about some of the features of the Saturn's DSP and they were among one of the best programmers in using it!

But back to neither being "real" 3D systems; well even for their time, neither had any type of depth perception whatsoever because they lacked Z-buffering in hardware, something the N64 featured. Basically, neither Saturn nor PS1 know "where" in 3D space any two objects are in relation to each other, so it's 100% up to the software programmers to keep track of this and instruct the systems where objects are and make it appear as though the objects are where they should be. However they both had DMA to their framebuffers like the Jaguar, which was very important for 5th-gen consoles.
Way back when when I was working on a (never released) PS1 title, we used a nice little modelling program called "GameGen" for our level creation and character exporting...after the characters had been built in Alias PowerAnimator.

The guys I worked with on the project were ex-Rare and I believe it's what they had used on some of their N64 titles.

GameGen itself was quite a simple package but it's ace in the hole was the inclusion of a graphical outliner of all the tris/polys that made up each model. We would go into each asset and sort...by hand and eye the polys so the draw order was a good as it could be... inserting BSP planes where needed. Very effective. If course it helped that everything was so simple back then in regards to poly counts etc..

Simpler times...lot of fun though :)

 
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Way back when when I was working on a (never released) PS1 title, we used a nice little modelling program called "GameGen" for our level creation and character exporting...after the characters had been built in Alias PowerAnimator.

The guys I worked with on the project were ex-Rare and I believe it's what they had used on some of their N64 titles.

GameGen itself was quite a simple package but it's ace in the hole was the inclusion of a graphical outliner of all the tris/polys that made up each model. We would go into each asset and sort...by hand and eye the polys so the draw order was a good as it could be... inserting BSP planes where needed. Very effective. If course it helped that everything was so simple back then in regards to poly counts etc..

Simpler times...lot of fun though :)

I can only imagine how challenging that may've been in hindsight, though I'm confident that at the time, folks like yourself felt you had it a lot better than people doing 3D modeling and animation in the mid '80s on Amigas and earlier Silicon Graphics workstations xD.

Have a personal fondness for the 3D of SGI workstations like the Onyn and Indigo in particular, there's a very unique way they did 3D that doesn't seem replicable with today's hardware. If the workstations didn't cost as much as a small car I'd consider picking one up on the cheap just to toy around with 3D modeling on them.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
Deep Fear, the voice acting makes the original RE looks stellar in comparison but the gameplay and graphics in Deep Fear are insanely impressive. Totally worth checking out.

I like that you included Power Slave, that game is awesome. Quake and Duke Nukem 3D are impressive too (same creators as Power Slave). Lobotomy Software were absolute wizards. Digital Foundry has done some good videos on their small but remarkable output. Digital Foundry - Saturn Quake , Digital Foundry - Power Slave

Shining the Holy Ark is probably the most underrated Saturn game that I can think of, JRPG too. The graphics are gorgeous and it's just a really cool game overall. Project COE did a good video of it. I will admit, I play it with a Map Guide and I think infinite money turned on. I don't have time to do the grinding but playing that way really allows a streamlined experience while having fun with the battle system and environments. Project COE - Shining the Holy Ark

Edit- Fighter's Megamix too, that game is so damn fun and the graphics hold up well to today's standards. Gameplay is divine.
 
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RAIDEN1

Member
The Saturn flopped for a reason, like I have said in previous threads in the past, it was 1992 tech coming out in 1995....had Sega not worried about giving an answer to Atari's Jaguar they instead could have focused on making the Saturn all the more better to develop for....what mystifies me though is that prior to the Saturn, Sega had no history of making complicated hardware. The Genesis/Megadrive you never hear of any developers complaining how hard it was to work with it...and fact is there isn't a hope in hells chance the Saturn would have been able to pull of a Wave Race, let alone a Mario 64... how could Sega go as the leading competitor to Nintendo one minute to then being a distant after-thought the minute Sony walked in the joint..no wonder Kalinske (not sure if I spelt his name right..!) left Sega when he did, even he could see that the Saturn was heading for trouble...

If it was so capable of doing transparencies was it all too rare and instead the awful mesh transparencies were used, case in point Sega Rally you can see the mesh in the vehicle. Not a great effect...

 

cireza

Banned
Some of mine which I don't think have been talked about yet












Great picks. Zero Divide is particularly awesome and unknown. Very good 3D, great backgrounds and everything in the game has a high level of polish.

There is also a game called Baroque that I never played, but looked very interesting.
 
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Turok 3 actually looks worse than Turok 2 but in favor of this, it runs a lot better. The developers were aware it seems. But yeah, game journalists are wack.

When talking about Saturn (a system that especially shined with 2D games) there was often criticism that was way too harsh with very weird reasons given for it. Gamespot, in particular, seemed to hate the Saturn for some reason:




I don't want to put my conspiracy hat on but it's not too far-fetched to believe that a company like Sony could've "influenced" (via early access and other perks) various magazine press. There's no hard evidence of it but considering there were people from EA of all companies using obviously buggy versions of Daytona USA as a basis of claiming that was the peak of Saturn's 3D capability (i.e only able to generate 60K polys per second xD), I have to wonder sometimes how that stuff would go through the pressers, even considering Sega's own fumblings at the time.

There's an interesting story surrounding Team 17 from back in the day where one of their games for the Amiga (it was one of their later releases) was intently poorly-reviewed by a prominent Amiga magazine because the studio cut off early access perks with them. There was a VERY obvious correlation, especially considering other versions of the same game were reviewed a lot better. Or maybe this was something caused through Commodore themselves as it occurred near the tailend of the Amiga's commercial lifespan.

Can't exactly recall the specifics; Kim Justice had a great video on Amiga/Team 17 that discussed it. I'll have to rewatch it again to refresh myself on the details but it vaguely went something like what I just described.

The Saturn flopped for a reason, like I have said in previous threads in the past, it was 1992 tech coming out in 1995....

Well, they did revise the specs, and some form of 3D was always planned, Model 1 with certain features of Model 2 like texture mapping.

had Sega not worried about giving an answer to Atari's Jaguar they instead could have focused on making the Saturn all the more better to develop for....

This part I agree with; Sega were horribly reactionary at the time and it's not like Atari had much cloud in console gaming by that time anymore. Microcomputers sure, but that was a very different market and one where Atari were still losing relevancy in (less so in Europe I suppose).

what mystifies me though is that prior to the Saturn, Sega had no history of making complicated hardware.

Eh, that depends. Some of their arcade boards are incredibly complex, in fact many of them already experimented with dual-processor approaches. That's part of the reason the Away Team chose that for Saturn when revamping the specs; Away Team had many engineers from Sega's arcade division, meaning they were comfortable with dual-processors as a concept and had experience with it.

It COULD'VE worked better in practice if they redesigned the system bus to accommodate it. Instead the two processors had to share resources more often than ideal, and the tools weren't the best in leveraging them even late into the gen.

The Genesis/Megadrive you never hear of any developers complaining how hard it was to work with it...and fact is there isn't a hope in hells chance the Saturn would have been able to pull of a Wave Race, let alone a Mario 64...

Again, some of this is relative. The MegaDrive had a lot of interest features, like 32-bit registers, that other consoles of the time lacked. The difference between that gen and Saturn is that dev programming culture as a whole shifted; Sony made C language extremely popular and efficient, so devs didn't need to spend as much time in assembly to get strong performance from the games anymore. Publishers wanted games finished faster, and budgets kept in line since games were getting more complex, so if they could justify weaker ports to another platform (or no ports at all, at least not internally), they'd choose to do so if circumstances permitted. Sega gave them those circumstances through the Saturn.

I think relative equivalents to a Wave Race and Mario 64 would've been capable on the system, though; no port for Wave Runner ever came but considering they were able to port games like Sega Rally (also Model 2-based), Wave Runner should've been theoretically possible. Sonic Jam's 3D hub world area is some of the best open-space 3D on Saturn and could've made for a pretty good 3D Sonic if fleshed out as a full game, giving 3D explorability comparable to a Mario 64.

how could Sega go as the leading competitor to Nintendo one minute to then being a distant after-thought the minute Sony walked in the joint..no wonder Kalinske (not sure if I spelt his name right..!) left Sega when he did, even he could see that the Saturn was heading for trouble...

Because unlike Nintendo, Sega decided to take Sony head-on, even though Sony dwarfed them in size and resources, both financial and in terms of internal production/manufacturing and distribution channels.

It was a decision that came from very poor upper management and corporate politics dividing the main branches at the time.
If it was so capable of doing transparencies was it all too rare and instead the awful mesh transparencies were used, case in point Sega Rally you can see the mesh in the vehicle. Not a great effect...



TBF many games at the time ran on CRTs which had a natural softening effect on the image and would blur the meshes to create the appearance of transparencies. MANY games on the 16-bit systems did this as well, Saturn simply continued this as CRTs were easily the dominant television models in the mid '90s.

In other words you weren't MEANT to play these games on HDTVs because they don't have the same capability of softening the image and naturally blending the meshes into a transparent-like effect. Aside from that though, there are quite a few Saturn games with "true" transparencies, there's a Saturn graphics-based video from a Japanese Youtuber (English subs are available) that goes deeper into this.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
I don't want to put my conspiracy hat on but it's not too far-fetched to believe that a company like Sony could've "influenced" (via early access and other perks) various magazine press. There's no hard evidence of it but considering there were people from EA of all companies using obviously buggy versions of Daytona USA as a basis of claiming that was the peak of Saturn's 3D capability (i.e only able to generate 60K polys per second xD), I have to wonder sometimes how that stuff would go through the pressers, even considering Sega's own fumblings at the time.

There's an interesting story surrounding Team 17 from back in the day where one of their games for the Amiga (it was one of their later releases) was intently poorly-reviewed by a prominent Amiga magazine because the studio cut off early access perks with them. There was a VERY obvious correlation, especially considering other versions of the same game were reviewed a lot better. Or maybe this was something caused through Commodore themselves as it occurred near the tailend of the Amiga's commercial lifespan.

Can't exactly recall the specifics; Kim Justice had a great video on Amiga/Team 17 that discussed it. I'll have to rewatch it again to refresh myself on the details but it vaguely went something like what I just described.
Very possible. A game like Legend of Oasis (which I consider very good and one of the best of its kind) getting trashed for looking and playing "too similar to the first one" and not even getting a detailed explanation for that is just weird. I mean, a sequel being like the original... isn't that kinda the point?

The graphics in Legend are, for the most part, identical to the original

I think you can decide that for yourself.





Especially weird is how the review is not really saying anything but "The Legend of Oasis is a solid title and contains a lot of good gameplay", but "it's too similar to the first so 6.4/10, lol".
 

RAIDEN1

Member
The video I posted earlier, very interesting to see that the 32x had better versions of certain games than its big brother...though I expect if Daytona did come out on the 32x it would have been even more compromised than the Saturn port..I think it is fair to say that from the beginning the Saturn would have had "modest" 3d capabilities but then when Sony turned up and they saw what they were doing they ended up throwing whatever they could on the Saturn and seeing what stuck....in no way was it a well thought out system....the writing was on the wall, hence why Bernie Stolar said: The Saturn is not our future...sad state of affairs ...and really Sega should have got out of the hardware game then, it was always envisaged that Sega should have been a software provider from the beginning instead of getting into the hardware business...
 

nkarafo

Member
The Saturn flopped for a reason, like I have said in previous threads in the past, it was 1992 tech coming out in 1995....
That's not a good point. All consoles/home devices used to be based on somewhat obsolete parts. The Genesis/Mega Drive was using a CPU released almost a decade ago. The Neo-Geo became a huge success that lasted well into 00's and that also used the same CPU. The NES was released in US in 1985 and it was based on hardware that was already released 3 years ago in Japan and that was based on older hardware technology as well.

State of the art technology in videogames was only ever used in the most expensive arcade boards like the Sega "Model" series (most "regular" arcades also used old parts). And these boards would cost a fortune. Especially something like the Model 3, which was like 2 generations ahead home consoles when it was released in 1996. Consoles couldn't compete with Model 2 and the Model 3 was already out.

The Saturn flopped because it got a bad rep early on. The launch games were all rushed because of the early release and every magazine would compare them with the PS1 launch titles, which didn't look good for the Saturn. People also knew the Saturn isn't as good in 3D graphics processing as the PS1 from day 1, which also didn't help because 3D graphics were what this new gen of consoles was all about.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
That's not a good point. All consoles/home devices used to be based on somewhat obsolete parts. The Genesis/Mega Drive was using a CPU released almost a decade ago. The Neo-Geo became a huge success that lasted well into 00's and that also used the same CPU. The NES was released in US in 1985 and it was based on hardware that was already released 3 years ago in Japan and that was based on older hardware technology as well.

State of the art technology in videogames was only ever used in the most expensive arcade boards like the Sega "Model" series (most "regular" arcades also used old parts). And these boards would cost a fortune. Especially something like the Model 3, which was like 2 generations ahead home consoles when it was released in 1996. Consoles couldn't compete with Model 2 and the Model 3 was already out.

The Saturn flopped because it got a bad rep early on. The launch games were all rushed because of the early release and every magazine would compare them with the PS1 launch titles, which didn't look good for the Saturn. People also knew the Saturn isn't as good in 3D graphics processing as the PS1 from day 1, which also didn't help because 3D graphics were what this new gen of consoles was all about.
And Ironically I read somewhere when folks at Sony saw Virtua Fighter 1 that was the game-changer for them, as the PS-X may not have been as capable in the 3D department in another scenario...
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
The Saturn flopped because it got a bad rep early on. The launch games were all rushed because of the early release and every magazine would compare them with the PS1 launch titles, which didn't look good for the Saturn. People also knew the Saturn isn't as good in 3D graphics processing as the PS1 from day 1, which also didn't help because 3D graphics were what this new gen of consoles was all about.
Add to that:
  • difficult hardware to develop for most western devs
  • no dev kit at first (dev kits weren't widely available till late 96. Way too late)
  • poor documentation
  • tools weren't updated regularly
  • more expensive than the PS1 by 100 bucks
  • no Sonic or Streets of Rage
  • and the hardware itself was more expensive to produce than the PS1 and N64 as well
It's not difficult to see why it bombed in the west. It is still a great system retrospectively, lots of games got overlooked and ignored just for being on the Saturn and the library is very unique with a lot of titles still being 100% exclusive. 2D games (Guardian Heroes, Legend of Oasis, Dragon Force) of that era are very fascinating IMO and look very nice to me.
 
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Dr. Suchong

Member
Panzer Dragoon II: Zwei


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When I did a short stint at Gamestation, I used to pop this on our shops Saturn and have it playing on our big screen tv located above the shops counter.
Playstation was pretty much slaughtering the Saturn sales wise, I think me and a couple of regular customers were the only people with Saturns lol. But a lot of punters used to ask me what it (Zwei) was running on and they were quietly impressed when I told them the Saturn. Amazing game. Can't wait for the imminent remaster, which is still on as far as I'm aware.
 
Very possible. A game like Legend of Oasis (which I consider very good and one of the best of its kind) getting trashed for looking and playing "too similar to the first one" and not even getting a detailed explanation for that is just weird. I mean, a sequel being like the original... isn't that kinda the point?



I think you can decide that for yourself.





Especially weird is how the review is not really saying anything but "The Legend of Oasis is a solid title and contains a lot of good gameplay", but "it's too similar to the first so 6.4/10, lol".


Yeah '90s gaming media has a lot of high points but one of the bad things about it, particularly mid '90s, was how 2D was practically shunned in an instant once the 3D systems came onto the scene. I get that it was revolutionary, but a lot of these 2D games were still pinnacles of sound design and many of them have aged better than their 3D counterparts from the same era.

Like was said earlier, I think Sega was running out of good will with not just gamers but also gaming press at the time, but if that led to gaming press just flippantly running with commentaries they knew were not or could not've been proven true without more time, then they should've withheld on that. TBF, not every Western gaming magazine turned on 2D games and I think most of them were still partial towards Saturn when the Sega games like VF2 (that got tons of excellent press at the time) and Sega Rally were released. Magazines like GameFan, Next Generation, etc.

But 2D games on 5th-gen system were generally shunned by Western press or just dismissed as more of the same; Sony of America had a strict policy against 2D games on PS1 and in fact several early 2D ports or games from Japan never got American releases because of it. Again I'm not saying it's a documented fact that certain parts of the gaming press may've yanked on Sega's chain at the benefit of Sony due to behind-the-scenes agreements for early access, perks etc. but it's unheard of because we've seen that happening in the film industry regularly, Rotten Tomatoes and several film reviewer-types got exposed for being a bit too partial towards Disney due to the early access and press perks they'd get.

Sony obviously had other entertainment divisions at the time like movies and music, in fact some people from those went to the PlayStation division (whatever it was called at the time), they brought their experience with them, that could've included any certain "other" things. I'd need to do more research on it though before ever suggesting this is something they definitely engaged in, there's just a lot of coincidental, circumstantial stuff if anything.

To be fair though, it was weaker than both the N64 and PS1. Especially the PS1 which had a far more powerful polygon engine that could push a lot more polys than both N64/Saturn.

Actually this isn't true; Saturn could draw more polygons than PS1, 500K vs. 360K. However, it was drawing quads whereas PS1 drew triangles, and of course other differences plus some bottlenecks in Saturn's design meant it couldn't display 500K polygons even if it could theoretically draw more.

Outside of maybe transparencies and built-in hardware support for MPEG decoding, and better features for lighting there's not much that actually separates PS1 and Saturn in terms of 3D capability, just in terms of paper specifications. In practice several things helped PS1 hold 3D better, but it also had a longer commercial life so the big-budget games got a chance to shine just about around the time the Saturn was being phased out for Dreamcast.

For example, by mid 1997 Sega were no longer funding new major AAA productions for Saturn, just finishing up ones that had already began beforehand like Panzer Dragoon Saga and Burning Rangers. Meanwhile PS1 would go on to get: RE2, Parasite Eve, FFXIII (and IX), Vagrant Story, MGS, Silent Hill, Valkyrie Profile, GT, GT2 etc. Most 1P Saturn games past mid 1997 were relatively simpler arcade ports (with not a lot of extra content) or games they had started before that inflection point, like PD Saga and Burning Rangers. 3P AAA support also dropped off massively after the mid 1997 point, but continued in earnest for PS1.

You can see that in many games having more complex 3D objects and more details. The N64 could get away with fewer polys because of the perspective correction so it draw large surfaces with only a handful. But even the N64 could match or even exceed the PS1 in polygon counts using custom microcodes that could alter other features 99% of games used as standard.

Issue with that microcode is that Nintendo banned it, and the few games that used it were lucky to get away with doing so. There were very serious bottleneck flaws in N64's design Nintendo were probably aware of before the system launched, hence why they banned the microcode. The effective bandwidth of the Rambus RAM was one of the key issues, check out Zygal Studios on Youtube for a video on N64's architecture that details it way better.

I'm not sure what exactly games you are referring to having more complex 3D objects and details on PS1 compared to Saturn, because if you're referring to games like GT2 or FF XIII, those games don't really have Saturn equivalents from the same time period making that comparison moot. If you mean ports of PS1 games like Wipeout and RE1, it's commonly agreed those ports either did not leverage the Saturn hardware specifically to its strengths, were quick rushed jobs, or done by external teams with little 3D experience on Saturn (the RE1 port is interesting because Capcom did that port themselves, but they had no prior 3D experience coding on Saturn, all of their other games were 2D and their only other 3D game on Saturn, Final Fight Revenge, was done by an external dev IIRC).

Yes, there are quite a few great looking Saturn 3D games in this topic. But if we could compare them with the finest looking PS1/N64 games, they would still pale in comparison.

No, not really. For starters, your timeline for those "finest looking PS1/N64" games are probably well after Saturn's commercial period as a serious contender, and you're probably comparing AAA PS1/N64 games to AA Saturn releases from smaller teams, let alone late 1998-onward games to 1994-1997 Saturn titles.


Sure, Saturn still has the best looking Duke Nukem 3D port but that's because it was treated by some of Saturn's best devs, while the PS1/N64 ports aren't even considered as the best looking games on the platforms, in any way.

Well FWIW DN 3D isn't considered as the Saturn's best looking game, either. I don't think it being the best-looking port of the three should bar it of what it accomplished; it's still a fine-looking port and compared to many of the PS1 and N64 shooters that released around the same time frame, is a superior-looking game.

Labotomy were wizards with the Saturn but oft-times were also cash-strapped. In many ways we never got to see what they could truly do with the Saturn, if they were given a AAA-sized budget to work with. Such a shame Sega didn't consider picking them up or funding them as a second-party developer when the time was ripe.
 
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PhaseJump

Banned
The video I posted earlier, very interesting to see that the 32x had better versions of certain games than its big brother...though I expect if Daytona did come out on the 32x it would have been even more compromised than the Saturn port..I think it is fair to say that from the beginning the Saturn would have had "modest" 3d capabilities but then when Sony turned up and they saw what they were doing they ended up throwing whatever they could on the Saturn and seeing what stuck....in no way was it a well thought out system....the writing was on the wall, hence why Bernie Stolar said: The Saturn is not our future...sad state of affairs ...and really Sega should have got out of the hardware game then, it was always envisaged that Sega should have been a software provider from the beginning instead of getting into the hardware business...

Sega was an arcade game company. They were always into hardware. They were the first ones to break Nintendo's monopoly in the west and provide 3rd party software studios a good platform to do business on; one that wasn't crushed or limited by Nintendo's publishing contracts and their supply chain leverage.

Bernie Stolar's the reason Saturn died prematurely in the west, by stating the obvious when they couldn't afford to. Sega's hubris is what killed the company. Not supporting the CD & 32x, losing it's own customer base. Killing off Genesis & Game Gear revenue. Saturn needed more games and they wouldn't risk localizing anything because they were broke and developing 2 Dreamcasts.
 

nkarafo

Member
No, not really. For starters, your timeline for those "finest looking PS1/N64" games are probably well after Saturn's commercial period as a serious contender, and you're probably comparing AAA PS1/N64 games to AA Saturn releases from smaller teams, let alone late 1998-onward games to 1994-1997 Saturn titles.
I seriously doubt the Saturn would be able to handle Banjo-Kazooie with the same detail, draw distance and frame rate as the N64 version. That game was released in 1998, the same year the Saturn was discontinued. But even as a late game it wouldn't be possible i think. Even if the Saturn would last 3 more years, i still wouldn't believe it could. Not without huge sacrifices.

The closest the Saturn came to that quality was the 3D area in Sonic Jam. But that was a much smaller map that felt like a technical demo. It would have to be something like Sonic-R, with a very short draw distance. Even the venerable Nights has very low environmental detail and it still has an extremely low draw distance. There's also that Penguin platform game that looks very similar to Mario 64 (a launch title for N64) but again, it has smaller levels, shorter draw distances (but still better than Nights and Sonic-R) and a more "boxy" design.

As for Banjo-Kazooie, I'm not sure if even the PS1 would be able to handle that game, it does have some nice 3D free-roaming platformers but i don't remember anything with the same 3D detail density.

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Daniel Thomas MacInnes

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Sega was an arcade game company. They were always into hardware. They were the first ones to break Nintendo's monopoly in the west and provide 3rd party software studios a good platform to do business on; one that wasn't crushed or limited by Nintendo's publishing contracts and their supply chain leverage.

Bernie Stolar's the reason Saturn died prematurely in the west, by stating the obvious when they couldn't afford to. Sega's hubris is what killed the company. Not supporting the CD & 32x, losing it's own customer base. Killing off Genesis & Game Gear revenue. Saturn needed more games and they wouldn't risk localizing anything because they were broke and developing 2 Dreamcasts.

Bernie Stolar gets all the hate from Sega fans and almost all of it comes from that infamous EGM interview. In fact, Saturn was already desd in the US by that point. The hardware was losing money (Sony’s price drop to $199 just killed them), the software was losing money, there were no breakout hits and the gaming public had already moved on. It was a PSX-N64 world by Summer 1997. And let’s not forget about Dreamcast, whoch was already a very public issue. Saturn was dead and was definitely not Sega’s future. If reading those words offended you at the time, sorry, kids. Them’s the facts.

The real villain of the story, the man most responsible for Saturn’s early demise in the Us, was not Stolar. It was Tom Kalinske. He’s the ine who crippled the company with years of poor management, overspending on too many hardware projects, farming out critical franchises to outside developers and never bringing them in-house, and a series of terrible decisions in 94-95 that guaranteed Saturn would fail. You wanna blame someone? Kalinske’s your guy.

Bernie Stolar gave you Panzer Saga. He gave you Shining Force 3. He bought Visual Concepts and gave you 2K Sports. He gave you the 56k Dreamcast modem. He gave you the 9/9/99 launch lineup. You’re welcome.

Also, if you’re really looking for someone to blame for Saturn’s “failure,” then start pointing fingers at the gamers. What idiots would pass up Dragon Force, Guardian Heroes, Shining Force 3, the Panzer Dragoon Trilogy, the Lobotomy Trilogy, the Sega Sports 98 lineup, Nights, Burning Rangers, all those Sega arcade hits? Seriously?! The only videogame that sold over 200k copies was Madden 97. Even Virtua Fucking Fighter 2 couldn’t crack 180,000 copies.

There’s yer answer. Pure and simple.
 

celsowmbr

Banned
When I did a short stint at Gamestation, I used to pop this on our shops Saturn and have it playing on our big screen tv located above the shops counter.
Playstation was pretty much slaughtering the Saturn sales wise, I think me and a couple of regular customers were the only people with Saturns lol. But a lot of punters used to ask me what it (Zwei) was running on and they were quietly impressed when I told them the Saturn. Amazing game. Can't wait for the imminent remaster, which is still on as far as I'm aware.
I have good news for you:

 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
Could you please tell me about some of these great J-only games? I know the sequel to Dragon Force and Shining Force 3, what else?
Some were already mentioned in this thread like Radiant Silvergun for example. Other notable ones are Baroque, Saturn Bomberman Fight, Sakura Wars (with the English patch), and the definitive homeport of X-Men vs. Street Fighter.

We have to consider something. There are 1047 Sega Saturn games in total (which is very respectable for a system that didn't even sell 10 million units), but only about 250 were released in the west.

Check this one out:










Hope you'll find something!
 
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Bernie Stolar gets all the hate from Sega fans and almost all of it comes from that infamous EGM interview. In fact, Saturn was already desd in the US by that point. The hardware was losing money (Sony’s price drop to $199 just killed them), the software was losing money, there were no breakout hits and the gaming public had already moved on. It was a PSX-N64 world by Summer 1997. And let’s not forget about Dreamcast, whoch was already a very public issue. Saturn was dead and was definitely not Sega’s future. If reading those words offended you at the time, sorry, kids. Them’s the facts.

The real villain of the story, the man most responsible for Saturn’s early demise in the Us, was not Stolar. It was Tom Kalinske. He’s the ine who crippled the company with years of poor management, overspending on too many hardware projects, farming out critical franchises to outside developers and never bringing them in-house, and a series of terrible decisions in 94-95 that guaranteed Saturn would fail. You wanna blame someone? Kalinske’s your guy.

Bernie Stolar gave you Panzer Saga. He gave you Shining Force 3. He bought Visual Concepts and gave you 2K Sports. He gave you the 56k Dreamcast modem. He gave you the 9/9/99 launch lineup. You’re welcome.

Also, if you’re really looking for someone to blame for Saturn’s “failure,” then start pointing fingers at the gamers. What idiots would pass up Dragon Force, Guardian Heroes, Shining Force 3, the Panzer Dragoon Trilogy, the Lobotomy Trilogy, the Sega Sports 98 lineup, Nights, Burning Rangers, all those Sega arcade hits? Seriously?! The only videogame that sold over 200k copies was Madden 97. Even Virtua Fucking Fighter 2 couldn’t crack 180,000 copies.

There’s yer answer. Pure and simple.

At last, someone who gets's it. Tom Kalinske is a lying scum bag who crippled SEGA in the 32 bit gen in his belief that the mass market wouldn't be ready to pay for the 32bit systems and instead go for the 32X.
Thanks to Tom we never got a 3D Sonic for the Saturn with STI inept handling of the project a project that was given to SEGA America in 1994 and by 1996 had little to show off and example of how not to run a studio or project: Lets have 2 teams making the same game for 4 different systems at various stages.


It's such a shame people fall for Tom's lies and spin like how Sega America and Japan never got on or how he could have worked with SONY. Like a typical salesman, Tom takes all the credit for the good and blames everyone else for the bad

Bernie needs to take some blame mind with his pointless fight with Working Designs which cost Saturn users an English version of Grandia
 
Great picks. Zero Divide is particularly awesome and unknown. Very good 3D, great backgrounds and everything in the game has a high level of polish.

There is also a game called Baroque that I never played, but looked very interesting.
I have Baroque but it's low res and looks grainy in parts great sound mind. Some more nice 3D which I don't think have been brought up yet











 

UnNamed

Banned
Problem with these comparisons is most developers already halted the development of Saturn games in 1997, that's why Saturn don't have a proper Gran Turismo like game for example. PSone had it's boost in graphics beyond 1998 with Tekken 3, GT2, RRT4. But Saturn already showed some excellence in graphics in 1997 with Sonic R, Burning Ranger and Fighter Megamix which could match later PSX games quality. Just imagine a FM2 released in 2000 or a BR 2 with 2 years more on development.
 
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RetroAV

Member
Bernie Stolar gets all the hate from Sega fans and almost all of it comes from that infamous EGM interview. In fact, Saturn was already desd in the US by that point. The hardware was losing money (Sony’s price drop to $199 just killed them), the software was losing money, there were no breakout hits and the gaming public had already moved on. It was a PSX-N64 world by Summer 1997. And let’s not forget about Dreamcast, whoch was already a very public issue. Saturn was dead and was definitely not Sega’s future. If reading those words offended you at the time, sorry, kids. Them’s the facts.

The Saturn hardware wasn't ready. The software wasn't ready. The tools weren't ready, and the price would be too high. Kalinske warned Sega of Japan about all of that, and I would say he was right. Bernie coming out and saying the Saturn wasn't their future in '96 meant almost 3 years of next to no revenue coming in! Which definitely played a role in Sega not having enough money to keep the Dreamcast going past 2001.

The real villain of the story, the man most responsible for Saturn’s early demise in the Us, was not Stolar. It was Tom Kalinske. He’s the ine who crippled the company with years of poor management, overspending on too many hardware projects, farming out critical franchises to outside developers and never bringing them in-house, and a series of terrible decisions in 94-95 that guaranteed Saturn would fail. You wanna blame someone? Kalinske’s your guy.

Kalinske wasn't perfect, but he got Sega to heights no other Sega exec has since achieved! I think the Sega CD and 32X failed because they never got anywhere near the same support that Genesis did. Otherwise, they too would have been successful (especially the 32X with its capabilities and price point). Kalinske knew this and tried to remedy the problem by green-lighting and outsourcing (admittedly), some questionable games, BUT his head was in the right place. And as far as farming stuff out, everybody does it! Some hit, some miss. Streets of Rage 2 is my all-time favorite Genesis game and that was outsourced to Ancient!

Thanks to Tom we never got a 3D Sonic for the Saturn with STI inept handling of the project a project that was given to SEGA America in 1994 and by 1996 had little to show off and example of how not to run a studio or project: Lets have 2 teams making the same game for 4 different systems at various stages.

The Saturn not getting a Sonic Team-developed Sonic title was not Kalinske's fault. He couldn't go to Japan and put a gun to Yuji Naka's head and force them to make Sonic for the Saturn. Sonic Team wanted to make NiGHTS (this is why you sometimes have to outsource). Again, Kalinske recognized that Saturn needed a Sonic title and tried to fix the problem with Sonic Xtreme, but it just didn't work out. And even when STI wanted to use the NiGHTS engine, Sonic Team said no! Not Kalinske's fault.
 
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cireza

Banned
The hardware wasn't ready. The software wasn't ready. The tools weren't ready, and the price would be too high. Kalinske warned Sega of Japan about all of that, and I would say he was right. Bernie coming out and saying the Saturn wasn't their future in '96 meant almost 3 years of next to no revenue coming in! Which definitely played a role in Sega not having enough money to keep the Dreamcast going past 2001.



Kalinske wasn't perfect, but he got Sega to heights no other Sega exec has since achieved! I think the Sega CD and 32X failed because they never got anywhere near the same support that Genesis did. Otherwise, they too would have been successful (especially the 32X with its capabilities and price point). Kalinske knew this and tried to remedy the problem by green-lighting and outsourcing (admittedly), some questionable games, BUT his head was in the right place. And as far as farming stuff out, everybody does it! Some hit, some miss. Streets of Rage 2 is my all-time favorite Genesis game and that was outsourced to Ancient!



The Saturn not getting a Sonic Team-developed Sonic title was not Kalinske's fault. He couldn't go to Japan and put a gun to Yuji Naka's head and force them to make Sonic for the Saturn. Sonic Team wanted to make NiGHTS (this is why you sometimes have to outsource). Again, Kalinske recognized that Saturn needed a Sonic title and tried to fix the problem with Sonic Xtreme, but it just didn't work out. And even when STI wanted to use the NiGHTS engine, Sonic Team said no! Not Kalinske's fault.
I agree that the USA management team had the right vision to push and sell their products in the USA (and yes, I hate the idea of not investing on games like Phantasy Star IV or Grandia), just as much as the Europe management team did a wonderful job here (best they could, I am sure of it !). Reality was that Japan, USA and Europe were in the end very different markets, not looking for the same games and console prices.

Sega Japan should have adapted to USA and Europe much more, as they were their main markets.
 
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The hardware wasn't ready. The software wasn't ready. The tools weren't ready, and the price would be too high. Kalinske warned Sega of Japan about all of that, and I would say he was right. Bernie coming out and saying the Saturn wasn't their future in '96 meant almost 3 years of next to no revenue coming in! Which definitely played a role in Sega not having enough money to keep the Dreamcast going past 2001.



Kalinske wasn't perfect, but he got Sega to heights no other Sega exec has since achieved! I think the Sega CD and 32X failed because they never got anywhere near the same support that Genesis did. Otherwise, they too would have been successful (especially the 32X with its capabilities and price point). Kalinske knew this and tried to remedy the problem by green-lighting and outsourcing (admittedly), some questionable games, BUT his head was in the right place. And as far as farming stuff out, everybody does it! Some hit, some miss. Streets of Rage 2 is my all-time favorite Genesis game and that was outsourced to Ancient!



The Saturn not getting a Sonic Team-developed Sonic title was not Kalinske's fault. He couldn't go to Japan and put a gun to Yuji Naka's head and force them to make Sonic for the Saturn. Sonic Team wanted to make NiGHTS (this is why you sometimes have to outsource). Again, Kalinske recognized that Saturn needed a Sonic title and tried to fix the problem with Sonic Xtreme, but it just didn't work out. And even when STI wanted to use the NiGHTS engine, Sonic Team said no! Not Kalinske's fault.

The Hardware was ready that's was messed SEGA America planning of the 32X and even back in 1993 Sega America had early Saturn development kits and set up the Away Team, Sure the Price was high but there was nothing SEGA America could do about that. Also, you're completely wrong about Sonic. Sega America was tasked with making Sonic for the next-gen it had nothing to do with Naka and I don't blame Naka and the team looking to make something new after 4 Sonic games in less than 4 years. STI after 3 years of work and making the same game for 4 different system with 2 different lines of the same team looking to use the NiGHTS engine wouldn't have made much difference at all, STI didn't even have a completed level in the game.

It's laughable that after nearly 3 years of work, SEGA America so-called elite team had to go looking for another's engine/debug tool. Tom mishandled the STI studio didn't make sure SEGA America pipelines were up to scratch for the 32-bit era and on his watch, STI and Multi-Media Studio did next to nothing on the 32 Bit era, total miss management of 2 studios. Mind you I blame SEGA Japan for even allowing Sega America to have so much control.
 
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RetroAV

Member
The Hardware was ready that's was messed SEGA America planning of the 32X and even back in 1993 Sega America had early Saturn development kits and set up the Away Team, Sure the Price was high but there was nothing SEGA America could do about that. Also, you're completely wrong about Sonic. Sega America was tasked with making Sonic for the next-gen it had nothing to do with Naka and I don't blame Naka and the team looking to make something new after 4 Sonic games in less than 4 years. STI after 3 years of work and making the same game for 4 different system with 2 different lines of the same team looking to use the NiGHTS engine wouldn't have made much difference at all, STI didn't even have a completed level in the game.

It's laughable that after nearly 3 years of work, SEGA America so-called elite team had to go looking for another's engine/debug tool. Tom mishandled the STI studio didn't make sure SEGA America pipelines were up to scratch for the 32-bit era and on his watch, STI and Multi-Media Studio did next to nothing on the 32 Bit era, total miss management of 2 studios. Mind you I blame SEGA Japan for even allowing Sega America to have so much control.

Could you imagine the pressure on STI of being a western team tasked to not only bring Sonic into the next generation but in 3D?! On the mess that was the Saturn?! It's been 20-something years, and many would say Sega STILL hasn't fully nailed Sonic in 3D themselves! I think I'll give STI a pass on this one.
 
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