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Who knew that giving a female character feminine features would be so offensive.

kanjobazooie

Mouse Ball Fetishist
I admit that I fucking rejoiced when Mortal Kombat ditched the ultra-sexy costumes and made female characters look like actual fighters, but I swear I never signed up for the lunacy displayed here.

I feel like I played a part in the evolution of this crazy shit.

EDIT: For clarification's sake, I'm talking about the change from MK9 to MKX here.
 
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SkylineRKR

Member
These days people are offended by anything really. To the point I stopped taking it seriously. It can be female characters designs, but also the way trans are being presented. Or a cover with the wrong colors. Or a cookie with a questionable shape. Just don't take it seriously. If those designs are being adjusted to appease them, they move to something else to cry about.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I honestly the think the root of this whole thing isn't about "men and women" in general, but rather more about how below average or unattractive men and women react to things.

Basically most unattractive men will see a traditionally attractive dude like Nathan Drake in a game and will either be indifferent to it or think he is "cool"
But a lot of unattractive women (specially those active on twitter) will see a traditionally attractive woman like Cammy and they'll get upset
I know girls who I'd say are plain, but they always seem to comment on attractive women on TV.
It's either they don't like them or they'd insult something about them.
Or the usual, "they've put on weight"
 

mckmas8808

Banned
Majority of female character designs that are considered sexist or portraying women as sexualised are designed by women.
Majority of clothing that would be considered sexualised or too revealing was chosen by a woman to wear.
A lot of popstar's and singers who look was managed by males was more innocent and covered up while under male management until they got freedom to control their own look.
In which they went straight to sexualisation..
Women like to look sexy, who would of thought 🤔

Guys......we gotta slow down here. I think the main issue that "SOME" of the critics have is that there at one point in time seemed to only be one way to design a woman in a game. Most just wanted more diversity in the woman character's look.
Gaming is just living in the past, out in the real world of 2021 women proudly display a nice cleavage if they can and go to the gym to train in specific ways to grow their butt.

Yeah, but not all of them need to look like that in a game.

Yes, most of them.

Gordon Freeman is above average handsomeness, certainly more attractive than all the scientists I know, but you never see his face in-game really so most people probably don't know what he looks like if they didn't see the promo art. Agent 47 looks like a bald Adonis/GQ model so thats a strange example imo. Max Payne was using photo textures and so thats just a guy on the teams literal face and he's alt-handsome in real life.

John Marston is probably pretty good looking in a world with no face cream and a hard ass gang/farm life but yeah he's not exactly a looker with that scar. Niko Bellic isn't ugly either, he's not classically handsome like Max Payne above but not an uggo either. Marcus Fenix I can't speak to because his design is so stylised its not like a real person. I'd say he looks like a worlds strongest man contestant if pressed though and they aren't very good looking guys due to their ultra-necks.

Selene is the only one who's not really good looking, shes gaunt and has bug eyes but at the same time shes meant to be an older woman and beauty fades.

If you think all those dudes look above average handsome, then maybe you'll think that these two ladies characters look average pretty too? Maybe?

Abby
abby-cosplay-870x483.jpg



and


Jesse Faden
Control_0.0.269.6751__FINAL_re_2-x675.png
 

Faithless83

Banned
I for one can't wait until we are at the point where most women dress like Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop, it'll be fun for a (good) while but I don't think its viable long term:

st,small,845x845-pad,1000x1000,f8f8f8.jpg


I prefer to see a woman's clam-mound after I've got to know them a bit, but I'm old fashioned like that. I believe Faye was overcompensating for being the galaxy's oldest woman at least.
Good thing that some people actually get context, also she uses her looks as means to get what she wants.
 

mckmas8808

Banned
I admit that I fucking rejoiced when Mortal Kombat ditched the ultra-sexy costumes and made female characters look like actual fighters, but I swear I never signed up for the lunacy displayed here.

I feel like I played a part in the evolution of this crazy shit.

You didn't play a role at all! You were reasonable and smart. There will always be crazy people on both sides that take things too far. You weren't one of them, so be proud of that.
 

recursive

Member
And see I think this is where things get "dangerous" in this conversation. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, but the bolded is kinda not fair to Abby (the character) or the artist that designed her.
How so? Artists are free to create whatever they want and consumers of the art can critique it according to their tastes and experiences. Of course if someone is being untasteful with their critiques that is a different story but it can't be ignored just because it isn't positive and accepting of some "norm" or political position.

Also, Abby isn't real and has no feelings. She doesn't get a say.
 

Kuranghi

Member
If you think all those dudes look above average handsome, then maybe you'll think that these two ladies characters look average pretty too? Maybe?

Abby
abby-cosplay-870x483.jpg


Jesse Faden
Control_0.0.269.6751__FINAL_re_2-x675.png

Not sure what your point is but I think Abby's face model is a very good looking woman. Jesse Faden I have no issue with, didnt get the hate at all, she's a strong jawed woman and I would definitely give her a peck on the cheek given the chance. Abby's in-game model looks more like a man than a woman to me, to the point where I wouldn't be attracted to her as I prefer more feminine looking women generally.

I definitely don't think JF or Abby's face model look average. Maybe its just where I live but most women are 3-4 points lower on the beauty scale than either of them so I'm basing it on that. I wish I lived in Lithuania...
 

mckmas8808

Banned
How so? Artists are free to create whatever they want and consumers of the art can critique it according to their tastes and experiences. Of course if someone is being untasteful with their critiques that is a different story but it can't be ignored just because it isn't positive and accepting of some "norm" or political position.

Also, Abby isn't real and has no feelings. She doesn't get a say.

None of these characters are real. The point is it's dangerous to say that since Abby has the body of a "man", that means she's unattractive. You don't find that a tad bit odd? Of course everyone has a right to their opinion, but we can't just let that opinion turn into a fact.

Not sure what your point is but I think Abby's face model is a very good looking woman. Jesse Faden I have no issue with, didnt get the hate at all, she's a strong jawed woman and I would definitely give her a peck on the cheek given the chance. Abby's in-game model looks more like a man than a woman to me, to the point where I wouldn't be attracted to her as I prefer more feminine looking women generally.

I definitely don't think JF or Abby's face model look average. Maybe its just where I live but most women are 3-4 points lower on the beauty scale than either of them so I'm basing it on that. I wish I lived in Lithuania...

To be fair, on GAF the bolded hasn't been the conventional wisdom. Glad you feel otherwise.
 

rofif

Banned
Guys......we gotta slow down here. I think the main issue that "SOME" of the critics have is that there at one point in time seemed to only be one way to design a woman in a game. Most just wanted more diversity in the woman character's look.


Yeah, but not all of them need to look like that in a game.



If you think all those dudes look above average handsome, then maybe you'll think that these two ladies characters look average pretty too? Maybe?

Abby
abby-cosplay-870x483.jpg



and


Jesse Faden
Control_0.0.269.6751__FINAL_re_2-x675.png
Abby is hot af
sYUpKSp.jpg

The COntrol lady? uh terrible. true
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
Not sure what your point is but I think Abby's face model is a very good looking woman. Abby's in-game model looks more like a man than a woman to me, to the point where I wouldn't be attracted to her as I prefer more feminine looking women generally.
Thats the point. They made it a standard to turn pretty women into male lookalikes.

Jesse Faden I have no issue with, didnt get the hate at all
When comparing the face actress to the in-game model you have to wonder why they gave her a chin twice as large.
 
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ToTTenTranz

Banned
The point is it's dangerous to say that since Abby has the body of a "man", that means she's unattractive.

Why is it dangerous? Is someone's attractiveness something that is very subjective and personal or a trait that everyone absolutely needs to agree on?

I've seen my fair share of women saying bodybuilders aren't attractive, yet they were never faced with replies accusing them of saying something dangerous.
 

Kuranghi

Member
And see I think this is where things get "dangerous" in this conversation. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, but the bolded is kinda not fair to Abby (the character) or the artist that designed her.

I say why don't you try printing out that screen of in-game Abby and ask people in your life of all ages that don't game (or at least wouldn't know anything about TLOU2 game) if the person is a man or a woman and see what responses you get.

Obviously corporations shape what we like in the opposite sex so they can sell us products the sell but personal preference plays a massive role, be it from personal preference from life experiences or biological reasons like preferring symmetry and wide hips/big bum/tig ol bitties in a woman and strong jaw/lean muscled body/I cant think of a third one in a man.

None of these characters are real. The point is it's dangerous to say that since Abby has the body of a "man", that means she's unattractive. You don't find that a tad bit odd? Of course everyone has a right to their opinion, but we can't just let that opinion turn into a fact.

To be fair, on GAF the bolded hasn't been the conventional wisdom. Glad you feel otherwise.

If we are talking about straight men I don't understand why you think its "dangerous", don't you think straight men generally want a woman to have a feminine body? I'm not saying everyone but I think general societal habits of straight men tell us they prefer features that are almost always associated with the female of the species.

Her sex is female so I'd guess gay men wouldn't be into her even if she looked exactly like a man, as I said above these things aren't universal some straight men might prefer a woman who looks like a male in the eyes of general society but media is generally trying to appeal to the masses and women and men look like they do in media because thats what I believe most men/women find attractive.

Its the same reason you have many more straight relationships in media than gay ones, if gay was the default then it would be the other way round.

The 2nd part I think you are reading too much into submental posters, I don't believe that the majority of men on GAF think Jesse Faden actually looks like a man. In fairness though you can't really check this since any poll is going to attract fannies who want to troll. You need to be able to see when people are being disengenuous, which in fairness is really hard on t'internet.

I've had lots of problems in the EZA community recently where I'm being told I'm "Xist" because of liking a tweet by someone they think is the devil or that I'm defending/encouraging the hatred of trans people by criticising the output of a trans woman. Life is pretty nuanced, I like to listen to everyone who I think is at least trying to think critically about issues to get a balanced view and I don't suddenly endorse everything that person did/said so far in their life by engaging with them.
 

mckmas8808

Banned
Thats the point. They made it a standard to turn pretty women into male lookalikes.


When comparing the face actress to the in-game model you have to wonder why they gave her a chin twice as large.

The bolded is the only issue I have with Jesse's face in-game in Control. Not sure what the artist was thinking there. But I never had an "issue" with it either.

Why is it dangerous? Is someone's attractiveness something that is very subjective and personal or a trait that everyone absolutely needs to agree on?

I've seen my fair share of women saying bodybuilders aren't attractive, yet they were never faced with replies accusing them of saying something dangerous.

Because it shouldn't be the norm to say that a woman with a muscled build is considered "unattractive" or looks like a man. Did you see the conversations on GAF and Twitter about Abby's character model?
 

mckmas8808

Banned
If we are talking about straight men I don't understand why you think its "dangerous", don't you think straight men generally want a woman to have a feminine body? I'm not saying everyone but I think general societal habits of straight men tell us they prefer features that are almost always associated with the female of the species.

Her sex is female so I'd guess gay men wouldn't be into her even if she looked exactly like a man, as I said above these things aren't universal some straight men might prefer a woman who looks like a male in the eyes of general society but media is generally trying to appeal to the masses and women and men look like they do in media because thats what I believe most men/women find attractive.

Its the same reason you have many more straight relationships in media than gay ones, if gay was the default then it would be the other way round.

The 2nd part I think you are reading too much into submental posters, I don't believe that the majority of men on GAF think Jesse Faden actually looks like a man. In fairness though you can't really check this since any poll is going to attract fannies who want to troll. You need to be able to see when people are being disengenuous, which in fairness is really hard on t'internet.

I've had lots of problems in the EZA community recently where I'm being told I'm "Xist" because of liking a tweet by someone they think is the devil or that I'm defending/encouraging the hatred of trans people by criticising the output of a trans woman. Life is pretty nuanced, I like to listen to everyone who I think is at least trying to think critically about issues to get a balanced view and I don't suddenly endorse everything that person did/said so far in their life by engaging with them.

The bolded is why I think it's dangerous. I'm happy you posted your comment above. We shouldn't be having this conversation as "straight men". These games aren't designed for only straight men. We should be having these conversations as gamers.
 
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Kuranghi

Member
The bolded is why I think it's dangerous. I'm happy you posted your comment above. We shouldn't be having this conversation as "straight men". These games aren't designed for only straight men. We should be having these conversations as gamers.

I presume you don't mean we need to consider whether this woman would be attractive/appealing to a gay man?

You mean whether someone who identifies as trans and also gay so they are still attracted to the same sex people as before when they identified as their original sex and were straight?

Anyway I don't want to put words in your mouth I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from, so please tell me what you mean when you say we should also consider whether non-straight men are attracted to a woman if my middle paragraph above isn't what you mean.
 

Faithless83

Banned
People? Mighty presumptuous of you. How do you know they identify as people? Try being more inclusive!
My bad some identifies as things, I think the US went full retarded on this.
I miss the 90's religious zealots. At least these were a more sensible enemy of media and arts.
Religion created more art then these people would create if they had thousands of years to do so.

But saying "Prude people" are the reason for what's happening is insane. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Jesse looks fine obviously, so does the face model for abby, but that in-game picture on the right could very well be a dude.

. . .comments like this are why you have people arguing as they do.

Those of you outraged at Abby's design: do you actually go out and meet people (re: women) that aren't digital versions through a computer screen? Not every female looks traditionally "feminine" (just like not every male looks traditionally "male"). This idea that unless you design a woman with huge milkers that the player will want to fuck you're somehow "woke" and "pushing an agenda" isn't just childish. . .it's tiresome.
 

yurinka

Member
What is offensive and toxic are this type of 'feminist'.

There is nothing wrong on giving a female character femenine features. And there is nothing wrong on making good looking characters, people prefer cool, good looking main characters, in the same way they prefer young and pretty woman or handsome athletic guys as main characters in movies or tv shows. And when you give them a character editor most people try to make an idealized version of themselves.

. . .comments like this are why you have people arguing as they do.

Those of you outraged at Abby's design: do you actually go out and meet people (re: women) that aren't digital versions through a computer screen? Not every female looks traditionally "feminine" (just like not every male looks traditionally "male"). This idea that unless you design a woman with huge milkers that the player will want to fuck you're somehow "woke" and "pushing an agenda" isn't just childish. . .it's tiresome.
Only a few few body builders look like Abby. And I don't mean with that that game characters must be realistic or that I want them to be realistic. I prefer them to be likable for the main type of players of that type of game (in this case mainly 25-35 years old men and women, a slightly bigger portion of them male) instead of pushing the character design to don't be liked by them and instead appeal a tiny portion of the players.

And it isn't a conspiracy theory, Druckmann said they worked the female characters to make sure they weren't attractive to heterosexual males.

And see I think this is where things get "dangerous" in this conversation. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, but the bolded is kinda not fair to Abby (the character) or the artist that designed her.
Not sure what is dangerous. The shoulders, chest, waist, hips, arms and some facial features they gave her are typical in males and not common (specially the shoulders and biceps) in females. They wanted to make her look more manly, more trans friendly, more androginous.

The artist did a great job at achieving what their creative director and their SJW comitee asked for.
 
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Saber

Gold Member
Imagine if blockbuster movies think the same way.

OP I know you don't have the control or power over the team, but that guy over there is a bad member to have around. Once someone who get social media standarts get promoted, he will downplay and remove anything they considered offensive, using being problematic as a trump card.
 
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mckmas8808

Banned
I presume you don't mean we need to consider whether this woman would be attractive/appealing to a gay man?

You mean whether someone who identifies as trans and also gay so they are still attracted to the same sex people as before when they identified as their original sex and were straight?

Anyway I don't want to put words in your mouth I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from, so please tell me what you mean when you say we should also consider whether non-straight men are attracted to a woman if my middle paragraph above isn't what you mean.

Nah, because how would we really know? I'm just saying that they'll be some characters designed by some artist in the video games space, where they aren't designing them for "straight men" per-se. Plus yeah...........there's many straight men that are also attracted to Abby's look to be honest.

It isn't hard to find guys that are attracted to that look.
 
There is a blatant hypocrisy for attractive female video game characters. People will relentlessly hunt down supermodels for commercials, TV shows, musicians, movies, news anchors, etc. Allow practically naked women for Facebook, Instagram and social media, but blow a gasket when they see attractive or curvy “fictional” female video game characters. Also, males almost always have great bodies, muscles and are usually attractive and no one bats an eyelid of course. They are trying to eradicate femininity.

If they want grounded or plain female game characters, then we should see more homely, fat, unattractive people or characters in other forms of entertainment as well. Why not get more pot-belly, average, balding male protagonists so average men feel “better” about their insecurities? How you going to demand an average looking female for a game, yet look for the hottest female cop possible for your TV crime drama or movie?
 
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ANDS

King of Gaslighting
And it isn't a conspiracy theory, Druckmann said they worked the female characters to make sure they weren't attractive to males.

I'd like to see this quote.

And why do you need to be attracted to Abby? I haven't finished TLOU2 (because it's so damn bleak and I need a little lightheartedness in my gaming these days) but with the way Abby is set up narratively at what point am I meant to go: "Well sure there's all THAT. . . but at least she's a good looker." This isn't UNCHARTED 4 with the sexy villain (where it makes more sense at least given the old school adventure vibe the game has going for it) this is a rough world where a gal who has suffered loss is probably more worried about being in peak physical condition than the male gaze.

Abby reminds me of Linda Hamilton from T2 in they the design just fits. . . just like the design of the mousey friend of Abby's fits. Two character designs that aren't trying to get your dick half full and instead help tell a good story (and it's not even like there aren't classically attractive women in the game).
 

Reizo Ryuu

Gold Member
Those of you outraged at Abby's design: do you actually go out and meet people
I'm not outraged by her design, I'm telling you what she looks like in that picture.
his idea that unless you design a woman with huge milkers that the player will want to fuck you're somehow "woke" and "pushing an agenda" isn't just childish. . .it's tiresome.
These kinds of responses are what's tiresome, it's entirely disingenuous to talk in asinine extremes and assumptions like these, just because someone, you know nothing about, disagrees with you.
 

Kuranghi

Member
Nah, because how would we really know? I'm just saying that they'll be some characters designed by some artist in the video games space, where they aren't designing them for "straight men" per-se. Plus yeah...........there's many straight men that are also attracted to Abby's look to be honest.

It isn't hard to find guys that are attracted to that look.

How would we really know if gay men are attracted to women or not? I'd say for example if you had a female who looked identical to a male who almost everyone would agree is a male outwardly (George Clooney for example) and the only way to tell they were a female was to look at their genitals then I don't think gay men would be attracted to her because gay men prefer the male of the species. Otherwise they aren't gay surely?

I think ultimately brain/behavioral differences are what make a woman or a man, but outward appearance is also a generally accepted upon quicker method of identifying males from females because there are general traits that men and womens bodies have.

I can't speak to the other part, that may be your experience but 99% of the straight man I've met in my life prefer traditionally feminine looking women in their potential partner, or thats what they've expressed to me anyway.

I think I need to stop this discussion, I didn't really want to analyze this stuff to this degree. I want to let people live their own lives how they want as long as it doesn't hurt others/limit their freedom. Cheers for being civil though I hope I came across as such.
 

junguler

Banned
people who get offended by these things are ugly people on the inside who think looks are everything and want to remove every form of beauty from the world so they can look themselves in the mirror without self-hatred and disgust.
 

Flutta

Banned
I will never understand how we preach not to tell women how to dress, and they can wear as explicit as they deem fit, but that somehow changes in designs for game characters.

Like, how does that work?

Am I just crazy?

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

yes i am going crazy mike napoli GIF
Its called hypocrisy.

From what i can tell we have two groups (There's prob other dark forces at play here ) that advocate for female character design to look less feminine, btw this issue also plagues the movie and tv shows industry.
The first group is beta males these fuckers are the worst. They hate men with passion specially good looking athletic men who are straight, those beta males can't stand being on the sideline while those alphas get all the attention. The second group are insecure females, it's the same issue here as well. They feel left out, in schools, workplaces etc. Basically it comes down to jealousy and envy. This is the result from all that. Now we got female characters who dont even look female or male lead characters who behave like betas. That strong athletic man is now labeled as toxic masculinity and good looking female characters are seen as taboo because we have insecure females in our world that now have a platform to voice their opinion on.
 
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mckmas8808

Banned
How would we really know if gay men are attracted to women or not? I'd say for example if you had a female who looked identical to a male who almost everyone would agree is a male outwardly (George Clooney for example) and the only way to tell they were a female was to look at their genitals then I don't think gay men would be attracted to her because gay men prefer the male of the species. Otherwise they aren't gay surely?

I think ultimately brain/behavioral differences are what make a woman or a man, but outward appearance is also a generally accepted upon quicker method of identifying males from females because there are general traits that men and womens bodies have.

I can't speak to the other part, that may be your experience but 99% of the straight man I've met in my life prefer traditionally feminine looking women in their potential partner, or thats what they've expressed to me anyway.

I think I need to stop this discussion, I didn't really want to analyze this stuff to this degree. I want to let people live their own lives how they want as long as it doesn't hurt others/limit their freedom. Cheers for being civil though I hope I came across as such.

The secrets is in the bolded. You'd be surprised by what your friends really like behind closed doors. ;-)

And yeah, I wish more conversations that we are having could be done in GAF on the internet in general.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
These kinds of responses are what's tiresome, it's entirely disingenuous to talk in asinine extremes and assumptions like these, just because someone, you know nothing about, disagrees with you.

Look at the responses in this thread bud. . . it isn't even close to being extreme.
 

recursive

Member
None of these characters are real. The point is it's dangerous to say that since Abby has the body of a "man", that means she's unattractive. You don't find that a tad bit odd? Of course everyone has a right to their opinion, but we can't just let that opinion turn into a fact.



To be fair, on GAF the bolded hasn't been the conventional wisdom. Glad you feel otherwise.
No I don't find it odd. Would someone stating Abby's manly body is attractive be dangerous?
 
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