• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Could the Ps5 do quick resume if Sony desired it to?

Hoddi

Member
I have an Android smart phone and an iPad. They all do "quick resume", no VM, no BS. I have not used a desktop Mac in a while, but if I remember well applications that are designed for it keep their states as well, same for applications like Notepad++ on windows, it just stores the relevant data in some temporary file.
Those aren't comparable. There's a huge difference between restoring a browser session and a full VM with every device driver and program state restored.

MacOS/iOS store the user session in the .plist format which are literally just text files. It's functionally no different from Firefox or Chrome restoring your previous session and is nothing like a VM savestate.
 
Those aren't comparable. There's a huge difference between restoring a browser session and a full VM with every device driver and program state restored.

MacOS/iOS store the user session in the .plist format which are literally just text files. It's functionally no different from Firefox or Chrome restoring your previous session and is nothing like a VM savestate.
VM save state is a way to achieve the functionality, I don't care how... This is not even the question.

The question is would it be possible to have something like quickresume, where you have the ability to restore the state of many games? The answer is yes.

Details of the implementation are not relevant to me when I press the X button on the menu to re-open a game.
 

Loxus

Member
VM save state is a way to achieve the functionality, I don't care how... This is not even the question.

The question is would it be possible to have something like quickresume, where you have the ability to restore the state of many games? The answer is yes.

Details of the implementation are not relevant to me when I press the X button on the menu to re-open a game.
Well this site seems to agree with you.

PlayStation 5's SSD may revolutionize save states with instant launch
A recently published Sony patent could hint at a new era of save states, customization, and overall user control on the PlayStation 5. The new feature is kind of like the Xbox Series X's Quick Resume functionality with a twist: Instead of the OS automatically bookmarking the segment you last played, you can actually set the save states yourself.

The patent, which is titled Dynamic Interfaces For Launching Direct Gameplay, refers to the save states as "templates" and basically outlines a new kind of save that's not just limited to gameplay. Users can set the console to boot to a multiplayer menu, for example, or directly into the last-played game segment that's been marked. Imagine being able to boot up right into a boss fight without having to run through the entire level again, or get another try at a tough puzzle.

The patent covers a lot of bases and the idea has a wide variety of potential. The most interesting one, though, is being able to automatically store a save of a specific game segment on your SSD that can be accessed for later use. The spectrum of potential use cases also includes PlayStation Network and PlayStation Now, and isn't just limited to offline play.


This might be implemented in a future update. For right now, I don't know.

People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
This reminds me, PSP Go had a savestate feature though it was limited to one game. But the hacking community created a save state plugin called PSPStates that did the same thing but for multiple games.
Worth noting hacking community didn't create save-states, they just removed the one-state limit of the existing feature, which was always just a storage/design choice. The same way you aren't allowed to have multiple save-states PER game on Series consoles (publishers would go nuts if platform holder allowed it).
Of course (and since people can't read, it's worth repeating) - with the PSP we no longer had direct access to the hw - in fact the last Sony console 'I' am aware of that did that was the PS2.

Now, admittedly I don't have any confidential details about the PS5 - so 'maybe' Sony decided to go back to the roots and did the PS1/PS2 again and the people arguing about save-states being nearly impossible are right - but it would be a weird change of direction.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why would a hypervisor be needed to load a save state of the game?
People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.

That's pretty clearly the "cards" functionality.

You guys just don't really "get" quick resume TBH. That article is just.. wrong too.. the word "save" doesn't even appear in the patent. It's a way of exposing essentially menu options from within a game to the OS. That's.. it.. and it's cool, but it has little to do with a generic "save state" functionality.

It's fine; you can do something KINDA SIMILAR in different ways, but the idea behind quick resume isn't "Microsoft's way" it's a pretty generic concept that requires the level of memory isolation a VM/hypervisor allows to work reliably (and it's far from 100% reliable, but it's far better than other attempts at anything similar from a "the software doesn't have to do anything" perspective.)
 
Last edited:

DrAspirino

Banned
You assume that the way MS did it the only way that applications can "quick resume", or that it's the best possible implementation for games.

obviously Sony won't have the MS version of the feature (if they ever do have a version of it that works on more than 1 game at a time).

Use your phone, reboot and re-open your apps... this is like magic or something, no VMs or containers.
The way MS did it is the way virtualization is done on PC and servers, with different OSs and hypervisors. In fact, the most common hypervisors are Linux KVM, and vSphere Hypervisor from VMware, both being used extensively with that formula: Hypervisor running many OSs, balancing loads and allowing them access to bare metal.

Quick Resume is just a byproduct of using VMs as strategy. You can do that with KVM and vSphere as well on PC, so it isn't a "new" feature or a Microsoft proprietary technology.

Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
That is actually wrong on iOS like explained before.
Even filling all the RAM, shutdown, changing the battery, etc it will be back to where you left the last time.

Like I said I don't use Android so I can't tell how it works there but iOS uses a save state file on disc to archive that... of course it is a Dev choice to allow that or not.
 
Last edited:
The way MS did it is the way virtualization is done on PC and servers, with different OSs and hypervisors. In fact, the most common hypervisors are Linux KVM, and vSphere Hypervisor from VMware, both being used extensively with that formula: Hypervisor running many OSs, balancing loads and allowing them access to bare metal.

Quick Resume is just a byproduct of using VMs as strategy. You can do that with KVM and vSphere as well on PC, so it isn't a "new" feature or a Microsoft proprietary technology.

Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
Yes, I know all that I have worked with virtual machines, hypervisors, containers for .. I'm not even sure how long.

I'm not sure if you want to have a discussion or bring counter points because I think we agree. As you said, the multiple states is a byproduct of Microsoft's convoluted approach to console OS (people like to use containers/etc. for everything these days "because they can")... That made it easy for them to use this specific approach, which is good.

I know for phones too, the idea is to think of other ways to gain similar functionality because it was implied that using hypervisor, etc. was the only possible way (I don't have to do it myself, so it's very easy!)... Which I find strange, there are always multiple implementations for a given solution to a problem.
People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.
🦾

Obviously, Bill Gates invented the wheels back in the days, this is how MS made their money.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
Worth noting hacking community didn't create save-states, they just removed the one-state limit of the existing feature, which was always just a storage/design choice. The same way you aren't allowed to have multiple save-states PER game on Series consoles (publishers would go nuts if platform holder allowed it).
Of course (and since people can't read, it's worth repeating) - with the PSP we no longer had direct access to the hw - in fact the last Sony console 'I' am aware of that did that was the PS2.

Now, admittedly I don't have any confidential details about the PS5 - so 'maybe' Sony decided to go back to the roots and did the PS1/PS2 again and the people arguing about save-states being nearly impossible are right - but it would be a weird change of direction.
True. All modern consoles I would say do have some abstraction layer, seeing as almost everything is done through some API with varying degrees of low-level access given to developers. With PS3 though Sony allowed users to install another OS besides the PS3 OS and Geohot's famous PS3 hack was through the hypervisor layer. Based on information in the public from various PS4 hacks, there are essentially 2 OSes running concurrently, one in the southbridge, that controls background services and the main OS.

In terms of save state being impossible? I can't say it is impossible but will they put resources into adding it to the general OS? Lots of Sony patents on save state for cloud games enable you to resume from where you stopped without having to rely on the in-game checkpoint system.
 

vdopey

Member
True. All modern consoles I would say do have some abstraction layer, seeing as almost everything is done through some API with varying degrees of low-level access given to developers. With PS3 though Sony allowed users to install another OS besides the PS3 OS and Geohot's famous PS3 hack was through the hypervisor layer. Based on information in the public from various PS4 hacks, there are essentially 2 OSes running concurrently, one in the southbridge, that controls background services and the main OS.

In terms of save state being impossible? I can't say it is impossible but will they put resources into adding it to the general OS? Lots of Sony patents on save state for cloud games enable you to resume from where you stopped without having to rely on the in-game checkpoint system.

I think Sony may do it the other way around as in the UI OS layer the users are presented is a separate vm running on top of the main OS which the games run on, that way they give the game raw access to the hardware and the vm acts as a security / abstraction layer to stop tampering or something to this effect. (This approach at least logically makes sense to me - you want to reduce impact of too many abstractions from gpu to game engine and also limit as much as you can the ui layer so that it never consumes more than the hard limit you assign it)

The other reason I say this is because of how they approach backwards compatibility - it seems they use specific hardware states or clock speeds for backwards compatibility in fact the approaches to solutions of both companies is very telling of the thought process of the engineers. Sony being a manufacturing / hardware company first and foremost tackles the issue using custom silicon, it works out ways to cut frequencies etc to make the hardware perform the same. Microsofts approach is almost always through software.

Both have their pros and cons, but I suspect this is another reason why the PS5 performs better than expected.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games


You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.
 

Loxus

Member


You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.

No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned


You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.

IMO as a PS5 owner these loading times shows in NBA 2K22 are unacceptable… and you guys are still using it as example 😂

So if the dev messed up you can workaround with QuickResume? 🤔

Why not make the game use the loading capabilities of the machines to have sub-4s times?

And people says that old/lower spec hardware doesn’t hold gaming development lol
 
Last edited:

Kenneth Haight

Gold Member
I think it's a cool feature but I really only play 1 game at a time so it's really a non issue for me. I don't want to jump between a first person shooter and then a racing game, and then a 2d metroidvania all in the same session. Maybe some people do but it is just not a feature that I particularly care about. The tech behind it is undoubtedly cool however but I can't see the vast majority of people really caring about this or it being a deciding factor in their purchase over one console from another.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Yes and no. Technically it's probably feasible but it might not be able to just automatically work with all the games that are already out. Like MS QAs games to work with that feature, and Sony can't just go back and expect that to work necessarily
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
IMO as a PS5 owner these loading times shows in NBA 2K22 are unacceptable… and you guys are still using it as example 😂

So if the dev messed up you can workaround with QuickResume? 🤔

Why not make the game use the loading capabilities of the machines to have sub-4s times?

And people says that old/lower spec hardware doesn’t hold gaming development lol
Here Ps5 is around twice as fast which it should be, the video is just to show what quick resume does.
And what's with the "you guys" It's me Bogroll and I've seen no proof of sub 4 sec games loading from the start.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.
And here's another "You guys" Why would to love it as a exclusive feature ? I would love to have the feature on my PS5.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Here Ps5 is around twice as fast which it should be, the video is just to show what quick resume does.
And what's with the "you guys" It's me Bogroll and I've seen no proof of sub 4 sec games loading from the start.

The think Menu to gameplay was s ridiculous slow for a PS5 game.
The active cards parts for example is atrocious… it should be very few seconds.

I’m probably spoiled because I rarely plays multiplatforms due time constraints.
 
Last edited:

Loxus

Member
And here's another "You guys" Why would to love it as a exclusive feature ? I would love to have the feature on my PS5.
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??
vqcEe0z.jpg

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
The think Menu to gameplay was s ridiculous slow for a PS5 game.
The active cards parts for example is atrocious… it should be very few seconds.

I’m probably spoiled because I rarely plays multiplatforms due time constraints.
But where are the sub 4 sec loading. I plug in my PS5 it loads Spiderman MM in about 22 secs from dead. Impressive as loading the save game is why does it take about 20 secs to load in the to the main menu ?
 

Loxus

Member
The think Menu to gameplay was s ridiculous slow for a PS5 game.
The active cards parts for example is atrocious… it should be very few seconds.

I’m probably spoiled because I rarely plays multiplatforms due time constraints.
He's trolling at this point.
We all know how fast games can load when they take advantage of the PS5's SSD.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??
vqcEe0z.jpg

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
I said I would like it as a option on my PS5 and imagine how good it could be with the faster SSD (if that's what it uses)
 

ethomaz

Banned
But where are the sub 4 sec loading. I plug in my PS5 it loads Spiderman MM in about 22 secs from dead. Impressive as loading the save game is why does it take about 20 secs to load in the to the main menu ?
PS5 cold boot is close to 20s.
Stand By is around 12s.

MM loads in around 2s.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
PS5 cold boot is close to 20s.
Stand By is around 12s.

MM loads in around 2s.
So using your figures ( your probably closer than me as it's been a while since I booted it up) It loads in 14 seconds. 12 plus 2 equals 14. Where is sub 4 sec loading ?
 

RespawnX

Member
No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.

It is. Whole family gaming on XSX. It's nice to take over the controller and start your game in 10-15 seconds just at the point you left the console. Then hand it over to the kids, so they resume their Forza Horizon 5 save game in the same amount of time.
 

ethomaz

Banned
So using your figures ( your probably closer than me as it's been a while since I booted it up) It loads in 14 seconds. 12 plus 2 equals 14. Where is sub 4 sec loading ?
All MM loads is below 4s... actually around 2s.
From the games I played Demon's Souls is the one that takes more time... it really stay on the 4s instead of 2s.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
All MM loads is below 4s... actually around 2s.
From the games I played Demon's Souls is the one that takes more time... it really stay on the 4s instead of 2s.
Just tried mine approx 14 secs in total from dashboard or switching from another game.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
If anyone is narrow minded, it's you.
You keep posting the same NBA2k video like that's the only load times the PS5 has.
Jesus Christ that's just a example of the 2 systems loading the same game from different situations. I'm no brain surgeon but are you really that thick. And then there's ethomaz who thinks 14seconds is under 4seconds to load a game from the dashboard.
I give up trying to talk to fanboys. Bye.
 

Jaysen

Banned
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??
vqcEe0z.jpg

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
Yes, Quick Resume is better than all of those line items. Especially considering the vast majority of PS5 games still don’t utilize most of them.
 

MrFunSocks

Banned
I have nothing but trouble with Infinite QR. If I could disable the feature globally, I would
vPXCfzQ.jpg
Yeah it doesn't work on infinite, have to manually close the game every time unfortunately. Dunno how they stuffed that up so badly. It just never re-establishes a network connection. You can see up in the top right corner it stays on "Transitioning....."
 
Last edited:

-hadouken

Member
Yeah it doesn't work on infinite, have to manually close the game every time unfortunately. Dunno how they stuffed that up so badly. It just never re-establishes a network connection. You can see up in the top right corner it stays on "Transitioning....."
It's intermittent for me - sometimes if I reselect MP a few times it will work out. To save time I now disable QR before I start the game.
 

-hadouken

Member
You can put the Quick Resume "Group" on your home. I remove from there before starting the games I play that FU with QR. Faster than restarting the game. 👍🏼
 

Corndog

Banned
All MM loads is below 4s... actually around 2s.
From the games I played Demon's Souls is the one that takes more time... it really stay on the 4s instead of 2s.
No they aren’t. I showed video proof. You said all first party games under 4 and they are not.
 

Razvedka

Banned
So what’s different? Can they run Unix shells? Gcc?
I mean they're just not the same operating system. Binaries are incompatible, and so on. Linux is 'unix like' and its own thing, whereas BSD goes off in its own direction. Lots of the underpinnings of OSX are not open source but closed source, which is another huge difference. This makes sense considering its Apple's OS meant for Apple's hardware, closed chain.

I very much doubt OSX can run unix shells that haven't been explicitly ported to the system. Something similar to Gitbash for Windows. Out of the box it wouldn't work.
 
Last edited:

Corndog

Banned
I mean they're just not the same operating system. Binaries are incompatible, and so on. Linux is 'unix like' and its own thing, whereas BSD goes off in its own direction. Lots of the underpinnings of OSX are not open source but closed source, which is another huge difference. This makes sense considering its Apple's OS meant for Apple's hardware, closed chain.

I very much doubt OSX can run unix shells that haven't been explicitly ported to the system. Something similar to Gitbash for Windows. Out of the box it wouldn't work.
Again. what’s different?
 

Corndog

Banned
I gave you the answer. If it doesn't make sense to you as I've rendered it, I'd try googling until your satisfied.

Here's a more technical breakdown that's still palatable.
Read part 2. Exactly what I said. Both clones on Unix but are not licensed. Yes it does say they are different OS’s.
 

Razvedka

Banned
You said the binaries are incompatible. So is the same version of Linux on different hardware.
Alright so moving away from OSX and to 'BSD more generally being different from Linux' here's an article from Linuxhint.

What is BSD, and how is it different from Linux?​

As mentioned earlier, the different distributions of BSD are all operating systems. And that makes BSD, like Linux, a kernel.

But to make things complicated, BSD is also a standalone operating system, which Linux isn’t. Let us explain how exactly.

For BSD distributions, several programs are added to the BSD kernel. This combination is then released as a standalone, complete package that needs to be installed, and the thing’s ready to go. So, the core difference between the BSD distributions such as FreeBSD, OpenBSD, etc., is because of the programs added to the kernel operating system. To download additional software packages, BSD users use the ports system, which keeps these packages in source form. The source code is compiled by the system each time the software is launched. While this can prove to be cumbersome, especially when running longer, more intricate codes, BSD systems can skip the compilation step upon each launch entirely if the program is installed in a binary state, thus alleviating the process to a great extent.

Linux is different from BSD in the regard that each of its distributions uses completely different programs, and the distributions don’t have a centralized repository for software packages, as each distribution has its own repository.

Differences in Licensing​

One of the fundamental differences between BSD and Linux is that of the Licensing system under which their distributions are released.

When you download software from the Ports repository in BSD or install a distribution as a whole, the software or distribution is allocated to you under the BSD license, which is a custom license system employed by the BSD developers. While BSD is completely open-source and free as of now, the BSD licensing system allows the developers to declare BSD closed-source at a moment’s notice. As a FreeBSD user, you’re not legally entitled to further releases from BSD devs. However, the BSD developers have made it public that they have every intention of keeping it open-source in the future.

Linux distributions are released under the GNU General Public License (GPL). Under this licensing system, Linux developers are legally compelled to release each and every instance of changes made to the Linux kernel. The licensing system, in essence, makes sure that Linux remains open-source, no matter what changes are made to the kernel itself.
 
Top Bottom