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Former Sega Producer Details How Yuji Naka Canceled A Promising Dreamcast Game

Welllll, I know Japan team was saying that, but they had an agenda there, so hard to say. Also hard to say which OS was better at the time either, as that was argued as well. By all accounts Windows CE was the weakest of the bunch though. I'd imagine these days at least one of these devs are on Twitter by now and are probably not unwilling to explain the situation.

Windows CE was just an optional OS; if you wanted better performance out of DC you used Sega's own tools. Almost all of the Japanese teams did, to my knowledge, but there are exceptions like Sega Rally 2 (which I don't remember was handled by an internal team or outsourced to another studio).

It does matter and it wasn't like MK 3 sold millions on the PS, the move to full 3D fighters was happing and that's to overlook SEGA had far better ports of Street Fighter 2 games, KOF games, SS games, NightWarrior games Ect, not that helped. So this notion that an IP like EC was going to beat the likes of Street Fighter, never mind Tekken or VF seems very far fetched.

You still don't get it; this isn't about having EC "beat out" Tekken or VF (speaking of, at least in the West I bet a 3rd EC would've came within reach of VF's Saturn sales if not actually outsell it). It's about having a game that adds to your overall product catalogue in a more beneficial way, a more strategic way, therefore lifting up the value proposition of the console as a whole.

And for the West, a new EC made a hell of a lot more sense for Saturn than Sega pushing Virtua Fighter exclusively instead.

Project Justice, also known as Rival Schools 2, was released on the Dreamcast in the West (US and Europe).

Looks like you're right; thanks for the correction.
 
You still don't get it; this isn't about having EC "beat out" Tekken or VF (speaking of, at least in the West I bet a 3rd EC would've came within reach of VF's Saturn sales if not actually outsell it). It's about having a game that adds to your overall product catalogue in a more beneficial way, a more strategic way, therefore lifting up the value proposition of the console as a whole.
Sega could have also added to the product catalogue by actually releasing half, even maybe a third or fourth of the import-only library.

I mean, if they wouldn't localize X-men Vs. Street Fighter...

(Also, realistically, EC beating out VF? The ONLY chance, however slim, for that to happen would require EC to go be a full-3D fighter, which we already know the planned EC3 was not going to do.)
 
Sega could have also added to the product catalogue by actually releasing half, even maybe a third or fourth of the import-only library.

I mean, if they wouldn't localize X-men Vs. Street Fighter...

(Also, realistically, EC beating out VF? The ONLY chance, however slim, for that to happen would require EC to go be a full-3D fighter, which we already know the planned EC3 was not going to do.)

I agree on the import stuff, Sega left WAY too many of those games overseas and we've only been getting English fan translations recently. If they didn't royally piss off Working Designs, maybe they would've done more English ports of some of the Japan-only games, even diversified themselves out of purely JRPGs and done adventure games or fighting games (the latter of which wouldn't of required anywhere near the effort for translation).

For EC though? Yes I do think a EC3 with proper marketing and funding would've done at least about as well as Virtua Fighter did for Saturn in the West. I'm not talking Japan; VF was clearly the favored option for that market and Asia in general, it was even more popular than both Street Fighter and Tekken in those territories for a decent while up to I'd say VF5 (or maybe Tekken 5, but that's just me throwing it a bone since it (particularly Dark Resurrection) is arguably tied with Tekken 3 for best Tekken of all time).

But VF was never a big deal in the West; Tekken and even Toshinden (despite having worst gameplay) eclipsed it in popularity. Part of that was def thanks to them being on PS1 but another reason IMO is because they just had cooler character designs (well, Tekken's designs didn't get good until Tekken 2) and more personality with the characters and their stories. VF's characters were pretty simple in terms of personality, and the storyline was generally barebones too. It didn't matter so much if the gameplay was great because the characters and story was too boring for a lot of people to get far enough to enjoy that.

You have to keep in mind that American gamers had different tastes at the time, same for European ones, when it came to fighters. They really liked the flashier stuff while I'd say Japan was more balanced towards flash and substance. Virtua Fighter was competing with the latest versions of SF2, the Alpha series, Tekken and Tekken 2, Darkstalkers, Cyberbots, Fatal Fury 3, King of Fighters and plenty of other fighters with at least somewhere near similar levels of substance (some more than others) and a lot more style.
 
Also uh...hey fellas ( Team Andromeda Team Andromeda , Tschumi Tschumi )? Can we calm down on the hostility? Please don't make personal attacks at one another, we don't need a mod to come in and lock the thread :/
I'm not making it hostile. It's clear some here were just looking to hate on Naka, for no other reason than it's Naka only then to try and pretend they didn't know who Naka was or his legacy.
Btw I don't think EC would have done anything special on Saturn. It wasn't like the Saturn needed any more great 2D or 3D fighters. IMO there was plenty more IP for Sega American to have brought to the Saturn, that made more sense like Joe Montana
 
I'm not making it hostile. It's clear some here were just looking to hate on Naka, for no other reason than it's Naka only then to try and pretend they didn't know who Naka was or his legacy.
Btw I don't think EC would have done anything special on Saturn. It wasn't like the Saturn needed any more great 2D or 3D fighters. IMO there was plenty more IP for Sega American to have brought to the Saturn, that made more sense like Joe Montana

I agree that a Joe Montana at or near Saturn's American launch would've done a lot (and more than EC), but you're underestimating the benefits a 3rd EC would've had for Saturn's first year. You bring up it having a bunch of great 2D and 3D fighters, but that's looking at things after the fact. How many 2D fighters did Saturn get in its first year on the market, in America? When did those games release, and what other games were they competing against on PS1 when they released?

Because you have to put yourself in the mindset of customers at the very time going into the shops, and buying these systems and games when they were commercially relevant. Sony getting UMK3 exclusive for six months to PS1 was a big draw for that platform getting ahead in Western early adoption over Saturn, especially when the MK movie came out that same year. Sega had nothing for Saturn to combat that, so a 3rd EC, maybe even one pushed along with an animated series (if doomed toy lines got full single seasons of episodes, why could not Eternal Champions?), would've helped, especially considering that until VF2 (or arguably, VF Remix), the only fighters Saturn had were 2D multiplat ports with very little if any differences to the PS1 versions, or 3D multiplat fighters that were worst on Saturn.

And as I said before, Virtua Fighter didn't have a big appeal to Western console gamers, compared to games like Toshinden and Tekken (which were both PS1 exclusive for that first year or so). So you basically had on Saturn, mostly 2D multiplat fighters, the limited-appeal (in the West) Virtua Fighter, Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix. Meanwhile, PS1 had those same 2D multiplat fighters, and exclusive 3D fighters like Toshinden, Tekken and Tekken 2, Tobal, Zero Divide, and for the launch period, UMK3 as a timed exclusive.

If you wanted to have the most access to 2D or 3D fighters in that period, and were okay with missing out on Sega's exclusives (again VF wasn't big with Western gamers during this era; Fighting Vipers and Megamix were aesthetically cooler games but probably nothing PS1 gamers couldn't go without) and maybe a few 2D games that looked a bit worst on Sony's system, then you went with PS1. Add in the fact that, over the years, a lot of Saturn's 2D fighters didn't even get Western releases (but PS1 ports of many of those same games did), and that just made PS1 even easier a choice for Western fighting game fans over Saturn.

Hence, why having some exclusives like Eternal Champions 3 would've benefited Saturn in that early period in the West when PS1 was locking up timed exclusives like UMK3.
 
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cireza

Banned
So you basically had on Saturn, mostly 2D multiplat fighters
X-Men COTA was an early release and exclusive for many years, as well as being the X-Men license.

PS1 had MK3 but Saturn had UMK3 and it was exclusive to the console (no PS1 release).

Golden Axe the Duel was a pretty great 2D fighter as well, and this game was developed with the Saturn in mind, pushing big sprites and zooming backgrounds.

The console also had Fighters Megamix which was had quite a bit of success in the West.

Fighting games really wasn't a big issue for the console in my opinion.
 
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X-Men COTA was an early release and exclusive for many years, as well as being the X-Men license.

X-Men was a hit at the time that's true.

PS1 had MK3 but Saturn had UMK3 and it was exclusive to the console (no PS1 release).

Right, I got the versions mixed up for PS1 my mistake. But the general idea still stands; they had timed exclusivity on the only then-next gen version of MK3 for a home console, which boosted the profile of the console. Systems like Saturn did eventually get the game (a superior version at that), but PS1 having it exclusively for six months was a big get for the time, again paired with the new movie that had just came out.

Golden Axe the Duel was a pretty great 2D fighter as well, and this game was developed with the Saturn in mind, pushing big sprites and zooming backgrounds.

It's a pretty good game but general consensus seems to be that it's nothing particularly special and wasn't the new mainline Golden Axe game people really wanted at the time (or at least a home port of Revenge of Death Adder).

The console also had Fighters Megamix which was had quite a bit of success in the West.

Right, that obviously was exclusive and appealed better to Western fighting game fans than Virtua Fighter.

Fighting games really wasn't a big issue for the console in my opinion.

Of course it wasn't, especially if you had a Japanese Saturn or imported games from Japan and played on a modded Saturn or used an Action Replay cart. But the Western stable didn't get all of those fighters, quite a few stayed Japan-only and the only Western releases some got were on PS1. Also my comment about Saturn and fighters wasn't towards the total library of fighters or especially with the Japanese side figured in (where if that were the case, you'd be hard-pressed to not at least have a Saturn to compliment a PS1 for your fighting game fix); it was about the 1995-1996 Western period for the system and, a bit more vaguely, just looking at the Western library (mainly American library) of games in that genre.

In those cases, PS1 probably wins out, and for that '95 - '96 period offered more for Western fighting game fans than Saturn, since it had a lot of its own exclusives and most of the 3P titles Saturn got as well, both for 2D and 3D fighters. I'm just saying, Saturn having some other exclusive offerings in the genre at the time like EC would've done quite a bit to help. It's not about "competing" or "beating" Virtua Fighter, Tekken etc. like some people want to think it is.
 

dave_d

Member
Right, I got the versions mixed up for PS1 my mistake. But the general idea still stands; they had timed exclusivity on the only then-next gen version of MK3 for a home console, which boosted the profile of the console. Systems like Saturn did eventually get the game (a superior version at that), but PS1 having it exclusively for six months was a big get for the time, again paired with the new movie that had just came out.
Actually it's a bit of a weird case. Sega kind of got screwed over on that one. While it's true UMK3 came out for the Saturn in June 96 and there was no PS version that's largely because Mortal Kombat Trilogy came out in Oct of 96 and was an upgrade of UMK3.(If I remember right it was announced at E3 so pretty much everybody knew it was coming out.)
 

coffinbirth

Member
Windows CE was just an optional OS; if you wanted better performance out of DC you used Sega's own tools. Almost all of the Japanese teams did, to my knowledge, but there are exceptions like Sega Rally 2 (which I don't remember was handled by an internal team or outsourced to another studio).



You still don't get it; this isn't about having EC "beat out" Tekken or VF (speaking of, at least in the West I bet a 3rd EC would've came within reach of VF's Saturn sales if not actually outsell it). It's about having a game that adds to your overall product catalogue in a more beneficial way, a more strategic way, therefore lifting up the value proposition of the console as a whole.

And for the West, a new EC made a hell of a lot more sense for Saturn than Sega pushing Virtua Fighter exclusively instead.



Looks like you're right; thanks for the correction.
Oh, I'm well aware...prior to launch there were 3 different operating systems being used by various teams. Sega Rally 2 was a weird one in that it was a Model 3 game that they(AM Annex) also wanted to port to pc, so it got the WinCE treatment. Same as Virtua Cop 2.
 
Actually it's a bit of a weird case. Sega kind of got screwed over on that one. While it's true UMK3 came out for the Saturn in June 96 and there was no PS version that's largely because Mortal Kombat Trilogy came out in Oct of 96 and was an upgrade of UMK3.(If I remember right it was announced at E3 so pretty much everybody knew it was coming out.)

Exactly, and if they had their own MK-like around that time like a 3rd Eternal Champions, they could've weathered that particular scenario a bit better. I know MK's popular was waning after MK2 but it was by no means a sharp drop-off, again also considering the movie doing a lot for the IP at that time.

Not saying EC would've become a mega IP, but that fanbase would've helped with Sega's overall fanbase at the time and seen growth, and could've become its own successful brand. But they just killed it way too early instead.


Oh, I'm well aware...prior to launch there were 3 different operating systems being used by various teams. Sega Rally 2 was a weird one in that it was a Model 3 game that they(AM Annex) also wanted to port to pc, so it got the WinCE treatment. Same as Virtua Cop 2.

3? Well I know there was Windows CE and Sega had at least one, so I'm guessing Sega had 2? One by the Japanese team and one by the American one I'm guessing?

Pretty interesting nonetheless; the Windows CE use in Dreamcast I think showed some initiative right there for MS to get into the console market, going by the Power On documentary.
 

coffinbirth

Member
Exactly, and if they had their own MK-like around that time like a 3rd Eternal Champions, they could've weathered that particular scenario a bit better. I know MK's popular was waning after MK2 but it was by no means a sharp drop-off, again also considering the movie doing a lot for the IP at that time.

Not saying EC would've become a mega IP, but that fanbase would've helped with Sega's overall fanbase at the time and seen growth, and could've become its own successful brand. But they just killed it way too early instead.




3? Well I know there was Windows CE and Sega had at least one, so I'm guessing Sega had 2? One by the Japanese team and one by the American one I'm guessing?

Pretty interesting nonetheless; the Windows CE use in Dreamcast I think showed some initiative right there for MS to get into the console market, going by the Power On documentary.
I believe so, but documentation on this stuff is scarce, and I'm running off of 20+ year old memories here, haha. I know that they had code names like the various hardware did. I know for sure one of them was code named "Dragon", but I couldn't tell you which one it was.

There was a definite shift during the transition from Model3 to Naomi Project in terms of development software and then the SH4 chip was settled upon by both teams, so it really was down to the GPU being the major divide between them. At that point there were two completely different teams working on two totally different sets of hardware and software. They basically did a back room deal in Japan that dictated they go with PowerVR which effectively destroyed the US divisions partnership with 3Dfx and subsequently EA, whom had invested in 3Dfx at the urging of Bernie. A lot of people parrot the notion that it was low Saturn sales that kept EA from releasing games on Dreamcast, but it was, IMO, this shrewd bit of subterfuge.

And, yeah it was Sega choosing PowerVR and not NEC chips that bridged that gap and pushed Microsoft into getting their foot in the living room via the Xbox.
 
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If you wanted to have the most access to 2D or 3D fighters in that period, and were okay with missing out on Sega's exclusives (again VF wasn't big with Western gamers during this era; Fighting Vipers and Megamix were aesthetically cooler games but probably nothing PS1 gamers couldn't go without) and maybe a few 2D games that looked a bit worst on Sony's system, then you went with PS1. Add in the fact that, over the years, a lot of Saturn's 2D fighters didn't even get Western releases (but PS1 ports of many of those same games did), and that just made PS1 even easier a choice for Western fighting game fans over Saturn.

Hence, why having some exclusives like Eternal Champions 3 would've benefited Saturn in that early period in the West when PS1 was locking up timed exclusives like UMK3.

I highly doubt EC would have been ready for the 1st year on Saturn in the USA. It took the team long enough to make EC on the Mega CD and that was a system using many Mega Drive assets. I wouldn't be against a Saturn EC but I didn't see the point.
The Saturn already had some of the best 2D and 3D fighters in its 1st year, and it also had Toshinden too.

This isn't aimed at all at you, but I tire of 'If only this game would have come out' It would have been the best game ever and made me buy the system. I tired of it with True Fantasy Live Online or Scalebound on the Xbox or the likes of EC on the Saturn
 
I believe so, but documentation on this stuff is scarce, and I'm running off of 20+ year old memories here, haha. I know that they had code names like the various hardware did. I know for sure one of them was code named "Dragon", but I couldn't tell you which one it was.

There was a definite shift during the transition from Model3 to Naomi Project in terms of development software and then the SH4 chip was settled upon by both teams, so it really was down to the GPU being the major divide between them. At that point there were two completely different teams working on two totally different sets of hardware and software. They basically did a back room deal in Japan that dictated they go with PowerVR which effectively destroyed the US divisions partnership with 3Dfx and subsequently EA, whom had invested in 3Dfx at the urging of Bernie. A lot of people parrot the notion that it was low Saturn sales that kept EA from releasing games on Dreamcast, but it was, IMO, this shrewd bit of subterfuge.

And, yeah it was Sega choosing PowerVR and not NEC chips that bridged that gap and pushed Microsoft into getting their foot in the living room via the Xbox.

Again, pretty interesting stuff; were you by chance involved in any of these happenings at the time, had trade access to them or had a source through someone with the info or involved in these happenings? There's a few specifics here new to me for sure.

The 3DFX/EA stuff tho, I do recall that from a Jenovi video, apparently EA had stock in 3DFX so they obviously would've wanted them to be picked over PowerVR. I think it's still pretty messed up EA decided not to support the platform at all due to that decision, tho they've always kind of tried this "leverage/blackmail-esque" history with Sega going back to MegaDrive/Genesis and getting that special licensing deal and being able to manufacture their own cartridges. Plus TBF, Sega effectively put themselves in that situation with EA/Dreamcast due to poor Western performance of Saturn.

I've also heard though that EA bailed because they wanted exclusive rights to sports games on Dreamcast which Sega obviously declined and pushed forth with Visual Concepts. TBH, if that were the reason (or a big part of it), if I were Sega I'd of agreed to those terms and just shuttered VC or assigned them to support other teams, or develop other types of games. Imagine what having a Madden 2000 could've done for Dreamcast's NA launch, or having online-enabled Madden when PS2 would've lacked such a feature. A longer-term benefit (at least in terms of 6th-gen) that Sega sadly didn't see the same way.

I highly doubt EC would have been ready for the 1st year on Saturn in the USA. It took the team long enough to make EC on the Mega CD and that was a system using many Mega Drive assets. I wouldn't be against a Saturn EC but I didn't see the point.
The Saturn already had some of the best 2D and 3D fighters in its 1st year, and it also had Toshinden too.

This isn't aimed at all at you, but I tire of 'If only this game would have come out' It would have been the best game ever and made me buy the system. I tired of it with True Fantasy Live Online or Scalebound on the Xbox or the likes of EC on the Saturn

It's okay dude, and I understand that sentiment. Though TBF, I'm not arguing on behalf of EC as if it'd of been the best fighter for the platform or gotten me to buy one (I was too young to buy a Saturn then anyway xD). Just more of the thought that it could've given it a bit more appeal in the Western market and counteracted Sony's timed exclusivity of MK3 (then next-gen version), and probably been more appealing to Western fighting game fans over Virtua Fighter.

I'm definitely not saying ignore Virtua Fighter, I just thought it was always weird that Sega saw the two as competing against each other when if anything, they would've complemented each other a lot better. More technical in-depth but less-flashy 3D Virtua Fighter (up against stuff like Tekken), much flashier and gorier but less-technical Eternal Champions (up against stuff like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct), and games like Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix to counteract some of the exclusive non-marquee 3D fighters on PS1 (Tobal, Toshinden etc.).

I'm sure there are some EC diehards who do feel a Saturn EC would've been the best thing ever and convinced them to buy the system, but my argument only tangentially lines up with their perspectives on that.
 

coffinbirth

Member
Again, pretty interesting stuff; were you by chance involved in any of these happenings at the time, had trade access to them or had a source through someone with the info or involved in these happenings? There's a few specifics here new to me for sure.

The 3DFX/EA stuff tho, I do recall that from a Jenovi video, apparently EA had stock in 3DFX so they obviously would've wanted them to be picked over PowerVR. I think it's still pretty messed up EA decided not to support the platform at all due to that decision, tho they've always kind of tried this "leverage/blackmail-esque" history with Sega going back to MegaDrive/Genesis and getting that special licensing deal and being able to manufacture their own cartridges. Plus TBF, Sega effectively put themselves in that situation with EA/Dreamcast due to poor Western performance of Saturn.

I've also heard though that EA bailed because they wanted exclusive rights to sports games on Dreamcast which Sega obviously declined and pushed forth with Visual Concepts. TBH, if that were the reason (or a big part of it), if I were Sega I'd of agreed to those terms and just shuttered VC or assigned them to support other teams, or develop other types of games. Imagine what having a Madden 2000 could've done for Dreamcast's NA launch, or having online-enabled Madden when PS2 would've lacked such a feature. A longer-term benefit (at least in terms of 6th-gen) that Sega sadly didn't see the same way.



It's okay dude, and I understand that sentiment. Though TBF, I'm not arguing on behalf of EC as if it'd of been the best fighter for the platform or gotten me to buy one (I was too young to buy a Saturn then anyway xD). Just more of the thought that it could've given it a bit more appeal in the Western market and counteracted Sony's timed exclusivity of MK3 (then next-gen version), and probably been more appealing to Western fighting game fans over Virtua Fighter.

I'm definitely not saying ignore Virtua Fighter, I just thought it was always weird that Sega saw the two as competing against each other when if anything, they would've complemented each other a lot better. More technical in-depth but less-flashy 3D Virtua Fighter (up against stuff like Tekken), much flashier and gorier but less-technical Eternal Champions (up against stuff like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct), and games like Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix to counteract some of the exclusive non-marquee 3D fighters on PS1 (Tobal, Toshinden etc.).

I'm sure there are some EC diehards who do feel a Saturn EC would've been the best thing ever and convinced them to buy the system, but my argument only tangentially lines up with their perspectives on that.
Naw, I'm just old and was around during the bbs days when NDA wasn't really a concern, haha.
I've heard rumors that EA tried to make an exclusivity deal with their sports games, but I'm not sure how much I believe that. It would've been the only instance of that during that period, as PS1 and Saturn both had sports titles from other publishers, but who knows.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
For all you guys talking fighters above, ya the 90s were the time fighting games were the rage.

Too bad Sega's were either shit, or nobody cared about them.

The most popular fighters at the time were:

- SF
- MK
- Tekken
- VF
- KI
- All those Capcom fighters ranging from Dark Stalkers to super heroes
- More of a niche, but gamers who spent time with all the Neo Geo fighters in arcades

Sega's fighting games were mainly Eternal Champions (shit game, I had it on Genesis), VF (the most boring fighting game ever), and a slew of arcade based fighters like Fighting Vipers, Last Bronx, Golden Axe the Duel, Megamix on Saturn.... and probably some more I missed.

There is no way any of those Sega made fighting games compares to any of the above I listed.

I'd put King of Fighters games better than all Sega made fighters combined.
 
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Naw, I'm just old and was around during the bbs days when NDA wasn't really a concern, haha.
I've heard rumors that EA tried to make an exclusivity deal with their sports games, but I'm not sure how much I believe that. It would've been the only instance of that during that period, as PS1 and Saturn both had sports titles from other publishers, but who knows.

Well considering EA did pull that (horrible) NFL exclusivity deal later on, it might not be too far-fetched 🤣.

I can only imagine what loose lips were saying online back in those days, it must've been like the wild west with BBSes of the time, probably a good deal of company and trade secrets just being discussed casually. I think most of us today would just be fine with open NPD numbers again!

For all you guys talking fighters above, ya the 90s were the time fighting games were the rage.

Too bad Sega's were either shit, or nobody cared about them.

You'll have to frame this some way, because from my experience and reviews at the time, most of Sega's fighters were very well-received and at least in Asia people did seem to care a lot about them, especially Virtua Fighter.

The most popular fighters at the time were:

- SF
- MK
- Tekken
- VF
- KI
- All those Capcom fighters ranging from Dark Stalkers to super heroes
- More of a niche, but gamers who spent time with all the Neo Geo fighters in arcades

I mean this is generally true but it depends on what region. SF's popularity was waning in the back half of the '90s, that's part of the reason games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken were able to attract segments of its audience. The SFIII games for example just outright bombed in arcades, and while the Alpha games were pretty popular the VS. games were even moreso.

Virtua Fighter didn't have a lot of traction in the West, but it did in Asia, especially in Japan where it was the most popular fighting game IP from '93 through the VF4 era. It was particularly popular in arcades, especially the earlier games. Tekken wasn't as popular in Japan but it eventually became the 3D fighter in the West by Tekken 2 and especially Tekken 3 getting their PS1 ports. Killer Instinct's popularity was on the decline by the mid-'90s but I think gory fighters as a whole were just waning, even Mortal Kombat was waning in popularity by the 3rd installment and it just continued from there. KI died out faster though due to middling home ports (KI Gold, which wasn't really a port of KI2 anyway) and Nintendo easing off arcades in general.

A lot of SNK's fighters in that period were relatively niche compared to all the games just mentioned, but had pretty good communities in parts of Asia. King of Fighters became their breakout fighter IP for a lot of people in the West, though, and it became one of (if not hte) strongest fighting game brands in Latin America and Korea, where I think it still is to this day.

Sega's fighting games were mainly Eternal Champions (shit game, I had it on Genesis), VF (the most boring fighting game ever), and a slew of arcade based fighters like Fighting Vipers, Last Bronx, Golden Axe the Duel, Megamix on Saturn.... and probably some more I missed.

Yeah EC on Genesis was kinda ass, but the Mega CD version added a lot more to the game and polished the gameplay a great deal, too. I think the vast majority with a soft spot for the IP have that due to the Mega/Sega CD version, not the Genesis/MegaDrive one.

Virtua Fighter...I would not say was boring, particularly once VF2 and VF3 came along. The 1st game's a bit basic tho TBF, it was the 1st fully 3D fighting game as well, so that's understandable. I personally don't think the games had enough overt flashiness to them and character designs were mostly bland (and on top of that, characters didn't have a great deal of characterization and the plots were barebones), but apparently with Asian regions, particularly Japan, that didn't seem to matter.

For those places I think the technical excellence of the games and them staying pretty true to real-life martial arts was the big appeal over games like Tekken or Toshinden, which is why they gravitated towards it. I do think the VF series finally got a major injection of personality with VF4, though. That and it being on the PS2 are reasons why it finally got the series to break through with the West, and it didn't have to skimp on complexity to do so.

A lot of those other fighters you mention outside of Megamix got ST-V arcade ports.

There is no way any of those Sega made fighting games compares to any of the above I listed.

I'd put King of Fighters games better than all Sega made fighters combined.

Highly subjective opinion and you're entitled to it, but I can easily list many subjective and objective reasons why it's maybe bad opinion 😁. Heck the first KOF didn't even let you form your own teams! Not to mention, unlike stuff like VF2, it's a bit hard to go back to some of the early KOF titles outside of nostalgic appeal.

I'd also say some of Sega's fighters of that era easily outpaced a lot of the other games you mentioned. For example, Tekken of that era just could not touch Virtua Fighter's level of depth, and what extreme depth Tekken games did get came from some rather unnatural, obfuscated mechanics and combos. I actually quite love the depth of Tekken 3 for example, but it just can't compare with the depth of Virtua Fighter 3 (that said, I think it's the "cooler" game of the two and that's due to roster, character design, and godly OSTs).

Street Fighter, like I was saying before, was generally waning in the late '90s. I do like (not love) the Alpha games, but Alpha/Zero 3 did kill some of the balance the 2nd game had. The EX games were fun and cool (and again, great OSTs), but they weren't touching something like VF when it came to technical depth or engine polish. SFIII is something I have a strong love/hate relationship with. Don't care that much for NG, but IMO there's no clear winner between 2I and 3S. They both have pluses and minuses. 2I easily has the better backgrounds and a more consistent OST, and better balance with the air parry system (which reinforces neutral play on the ground). 3S has Chun (obviously a plus 😉)and some of my favorites like Remy plus a great fighting engine, but the balance is pretty terrible, the backgrounds are worst, the OST overall isn't as strong as 2Is (some songs do stand out for me tho), and characters like Hugo don't look like they have finished sprite art. Plus, the way it does air parries in particular rewards aggressive play too much which when combined with the ground parry and red parry, kills a good deal of the neutral.

That said those are 2D fighters and it's not like you can directly compare a 3D fighter up with them. So if someone has a preference for 2D-style fighters then I'd expect them to prefer a lot of those over Sega's lineup which was pretty much 3D fighters outside of EC and GA: The Duel. I can see people preferring certain 3D fighters over certain games like VF, too, but there are some areas where stuff like VF just shits over those other games, and I imagine a lot of the preference otherwise coming from stylistic presentation and choices, something VF admittedly was somewhat weak in until VF3/VF4.
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
It is physically impossible for any game made for doomed console to ever show some kind of a promise.
Well, I don't know about that. It depends what you mean by promise.

For example, the Saturn sold about the same as the Dreamcast. And we still got games that showed promise. NiGHTS, the Panzer Dragoon series, Virtua Fighter. None of them were mega-hits, but they do have a cult following, and were/are very appreciated.
 
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