Bernd Lauert
Banned
It's a hilarious puff piece, and the people who always complain about astroturfing when there's an Xbox puff piece are eating this one up 100% and seeing zero irony in it.
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[VentureBeat] PlayStation’s strength is that it can do it all
- Thread starter 3liteDragon
- Start date
- Analysis
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I think it's important to understand that the quality of PlayStation Studios game is because they rely on retail sales and don't give away their games on a subscription service. Who knows if they'll be able to maintain the same quality that we're all praising (and what you think is the reason PlayStation is a must-have console) if they start putting their games day one on a $10 subscription service?
I can bet that the quality will suffer.:
- PS Studios will get lower budget for development
- More games will be half-baked and less ambitious and less detailed
- Even important features will roll out over a period of months and get more money per subscriber per game (to keep subscribers, ala Halo Infinite Forge and Co-Op launch)
- Games will be more buggy which will be patched over months
- Games will be more of live-service type
- Fewer single-player games
- Most importantly, the focus will shift on quantity instead of quality because they would want to keep the content pipeline full. Sony could delay Horizon Forbidden West because it wasn't ready in Fall 2021 and then release it 2 weeks before Gran Turismo. A subscription service model doesn't allow that.
I'm not. I want Sony to continue making these $200 million blockbuster games that no one else does.
Klayzer
Member
He also didn't say it was "profitable" right now either. Anyways, its only a matter of time before it becomes a major revenue provider for Microsoft.
You don't invest close to 100 billion dollars in content, without knowing if a market is going to be sustainable or not. Microsoft knows how to make money.
Vick
Member
How in the hell do the “platform holders” just invent ways to make this work? What a dumb ass attitude. I would absolutely "resist the change" because the change isn't going to work for business. Companies generally don't exist to lose money. While Microsoft can do it because the Xbox division is basically subsidized by the divisions that make money, and always have been, Sony and Nintendo cannot afford that because they are not trillion dollar behemoths.
Sony has already said the subscription model doesn’t work for the kinds of games they make. We know MS loses money on Game Pass. But you think now you are owed cheap games? Your attitude is ... “not my problem.” So you want games at a price that’s WAY below what they cost to make, and you’re proud of that fact. Brilliant. Truly a sharp mind you have there.
Let me ask you this. Do you expect people to pay you for your work? I assume yes. I bet there is even a chance you think you are underpaid. But for some reason you think it’s your right, and Microsoft’s/Sony’s obligation, to have a service they subsidize so you don’t have to pay for your hobby. What a selfish and short sighted perspective. I don't see how you and similarly minded people don't see how this doesn't work out.
I happily pay full price for games, because I like supporting the creators. Just as I expect people who want me to work for them to pay me well, because I’ve worked hard to have rare and high end skills. It's called understanding value and respecting other people's labor. But no, you think "just give it all to me for a couple bucks." I mean, WTF.
But at the very least, we are entering the next phase of this, which of course I've been calling for years. And that phase is people being proud of not paying. I said this model is dangerous because it devalues software. I, and many others, were told we were crazy and got the typical "laugh" responses by the small core gang because that "just wouldn't happen" (much like @DarkMage619 did above, because he has no argument to respond with, and no leg to stand on, so he tries to rely on derision as a rhetorical defense. But he knows I'm right. He knows it). And lo and behold, look at the proud language being used by people saying no way do they want to pay anymore. But at the same time people want more, while demanding they pay less. But at least they are being open about it.
I don't know where this goes at this point, but people are at least drawing their line in the sand. Good luck trying to tell a business you don't want to pay for product though, while they need to figure out how to make it profitable. And then when they pack it all in you'll be standing there whining "but muh video games!"
Banjo64
cumsessed
I’m sure people know that I like Xbox, so this isn’t an attempt to troll at all.
I’m rearranging some stuff at the moment, my monitor has 2 HDMI ports. Obviously, I own 3 consoles.
If Xbox didn’t have Halo Infinite, Avowed and the next TES game I’d have no need for an Xbox at all. PS and Switch seem to have it all, even Ori 1 & 2.
I’m mightily tempted to shift my Series S for a £500 laptop, so long as I could get one that plays Halo at 1080p/60 with decent settings.
I’m rearranging some stuff at the moment, my monitor has 2 HDMI ports. Obviously, I own 3 consoles.
If Xbox didn’t have Halo Infinite, Avowed and the next TES game I’d have no need for an Xbox at all. PS and Switch seem to have it all, even Ori 1 & 2.
I’m mightily tempted to shift my Series S for a £500 laptop, so long as I could get one that plays Halo at 1080p/60 with decent settings.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
"sustainable", not "self-sustainable."
Sustainable as in we can sustain it by using money from the parent company's other departments.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
You made a nice list but you never explain why only retail money can pay for 200 million dollar games, and not subscription money.
Orbital2060
Member
I find it interesting that none of these puff pieces for Sony never mentions - or questions - how the PlayStation is doing in Japan. But they just ignore it completely. Tte fact that Sony software is not selling at all in Japan.
Its always glass half-full with Playstation, and half-empty with Xbox.
Its always glass half-full with Playstation, and half-empty with Xbox.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Sustainable means self-sustainable, otherwise the word wouldn't make any sense. Subsidizing is literally the opposite of sustainable.
There's zero evidence that Gamepass or Xbox as a whole are losing money, yet people keep claiming it is. It's called copium.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
It can, but then you need 200-300 million subscribers. Until that happens, the company will keep taking the hit and try to find different ways (as mentioned above) to minimize the loss by reducing the scope of the games and exploring different scammy monetization tactics.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Shawn please, do the math again. You don't need 300 million subscribers lmao
Fredrik
Member
It's too late, like I said it's no different from when subscription took over elsewhere. Can’t stop this train. But MS has been clear on that subscription won’t take over completely. And nobody is forcing you to subscribe. So keep on doing what you’re doing if that feels better.How in the hell do the “platform holders” just invent ways to make this work? What a dumb ass attitude. I would absolutely "resist the change" because the change isn't going to work for business. Companies generally don't exist to lose money. While Microsoft can do it because the Xbox division is basically subsidized by the division that make money, and always have been, Sony and Nintendo cannot afford that because they are not trillion dollar behemoths.
Sony has already said the subscription model doesn’t work for the kinds of games they make. We know MS loses money on Game Pass. But you think now you are owed cheap games? Your attitude is ... “not my problem.” So you want games at a price that’s WAY below what they cost to make, and you’re proud of that fact. Brilliant. Truly a sharp mind you have there.
Let me ask you this. Do you expect people to pay you for your work? I assume yes. I bet there is even a chance you think you are underpaid. But for some reason you think it’s your right, and Microsoft’s/Sony’s obligation, to have a service they subsidize so you don’t have to pay for your hobby. What a selfish and short sighted perspective. I don't see how you and similarly minded people don't see how this doesn't work out.
I happily pay full price for games, because I like supporting the creators. Just as I expect people who want me to work for them to pay me well, because I’ve worked hard to have rare and high end skills. It's called understanding value and respecting other people's labor. But no, you think "just give it all to me for a couple bucks." I mean, WTF.
But at the very least, we are entering the next phase of this, which of course I've been calling for years. And that phase is people being proud of not paying. I said this model is dangerous because it devalues software. I, and many others, were told we were crazy and got the typical "laugh" responses by the small core gang because that "just wouldn't happen" (much like @DarkMage619 did above, because he has no argument to respond with, and no leg to stand on, so he tries to rely on derision as a rhetorical defense. But he knows I'm right. He knows it). And lo and behold, look at the proud language being used by people saying no way do they want to pay anymore. But at the same time people want more, while demanding they pay less. But at least they are being open about it.
I don't know where this goes at this point, but people are at least drawing their line in the sand. Good luck trying to tell a business you don't want to pay for product though, while they need to figure out how to make it profitable. And then when they pack it all in you'll be standing there whining "but muh video games!"
Or… you can ride this train early and enjoy more games for less money while it’s still cheap when they try to ramp up the user count. It's your choice. I'm a cheap ass gamer, I feed on Steam sales, I claim the free EGS games, and I prepay to get Gamepass cheaper. For me it’s awesome, more games for less money, and the money I save can be used on hardware or other things.
Iirc Phil has said that Gamepass is already making money. I assume the money comes from millions of people paying a little each month instead of a lot once or twice a year.
For those who barely buy games it's likely more expensive if you add it up, but the upside is that they can play more games and try games they never would’ve played otherwise, kinda like how it is with Spotify and Netflix etc.
For us who play a lot it's no doubt cheaper and we can play even more games.
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Orbital2060
Member
The math is completely out of whack, people have no idea what they are talking about.
Klayzer
Member
Good counterpoint. My question is, "what is the sweet spot subscribers wise before it becomes the behemoth Microsoft is betting on". We already have many that subscribe to Gamespass boast about not having paid for a retail Xbox game in years. Even Microsoft will want major profits from Xbox eventually.
tommib
Member
Coming from Grubb I wouldn’t be surprised. As the ultimate fanboy, he might think in his lunacy this helps his beloved company.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
I just realized this article was written by Jeff Grubb, which makes the praise for the article even more funny. I might literally die of irony.
So the theory is that it's pushing the fact that Sony is really strong as it stands and with the trends of gaming ip being in demand; just so that the FTC believes that the Activision deal won't make a big impact on competitive nature of the market?
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Sega Orphan
Banned
Sony is in a very strong position. All they need to do is to keep producing strong exclusives for their console. Build it and they will come so to speak.
However, one reality that they still need to be mindful of is that midway through last gen Microsoft had 343i, Turn 10, The Coalition, Rare and Mojang as first party studios, and now at the beginning of this generation they have 22 studios with another 12 coming in with ABK.
On top of this there is Xbox Game Publishing which is doing second party exclusives like Contraband.
Exclusive game Output wise, MS will be putting more Exclusives out for the Xbox than Sony can physically do with their studios.
Sony has to spend a fair bit more money in buying independent studios to increase their Output. The main issue with this is that it takes alot of time for this to materialise. Just look how long it is taking MS to start seeing the fruits of all their acquisitions.
But I think Sony is aware of this and are buying more studios. In the meantime before they get them onboard I think Sony will invest in more timed Exclusives to cover the gap.
Long story short, they are still in a great position, and they are reacting to the changing market conditions like they need to.
However, one reality that they still need to be mindful of is that midway through last gen Microsoft had 343i, Turn 10, The Coalition, Rare and Mojang as first party studios, and now at the beginning of this generation they have 22 studios with another 12 coming in with ABK.
On top of this there is Xbox Game Publishing which is doing second party exclusives like Contraband.
Exclusive game Output wise, MS will be putting more Exclusives out for the Xbox than Sony can physically do with their studios.
Sony has to spend a fair bit more money in buying independent studios to increase their Output. The main issue with this is that it takes alot of time for this to materialise. Just look how long it is taking MS to start seeing the fruits of all their acquisitions.
But I think Sony is aware of this and are buying more studios. In the meantime before they get them onboard I think Sony will invest in more timed Exclusives to cover the gap.
Long story short, they are still in a great position, and they are reacting to the changing market conditions like they need to.
Cyborg
Member
I always believe that focus is key to success! Doing too much different stuff never helped anyone.
I do believe Sony has different branches in the company that could work together without taking too many resources from gaming or vice versa.
For example; Neil working/helping on Uncharted movie and HBO The Last of Us will impact his time spent on the new project/game.
I do believe Sony has different branches in the company that could work together without taking too many resources from gaming or vice versa.
For example; Neil working/helping on Uncharted movie and HBO The Last of Us will impact his time spent on the new project/game.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Cool fantasy world. In the real one Sony is playing catch-up with Microsoft and trying to create Gamepass subscription service equivalent, more multiplayer games, more GaaS, starting to release first party on other platforms...
tommib
Member
Bernd Lauert
Banned
They want to be the Netflix of gaming, so they have a very long road ahead of themselves. I assume this is literally a ten year plan. This doesn't mean they're deep in the red right now, though. They're probably just re-investing all the money they get.
Amazon of gaming not Netflix, Netflix doesn't have a storefront that they are making money off
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
True, true.
I am just trying to understand the theoryHey, it’s a clickbait article written by an Xbox fanatic. We can all have theories.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The only way this post makes sense is if you live in the one country in the entire world where only Playstation exists. Because Switch has been dominant basically everywhere, even in Playstation strongholds like Spain.
Your point about Nintendo not having cultural impact is surely a wild one. Utterly incomprehensible.
To your last point, ask 100 strangers to name a Nintendo game, and they'll say Mario or Pokemon. Ask 100 strangers to name a Playstation game, and they'll say... Fifa or Call of Duty.
PropellerEar
Member
Orbital2060
Member
Its Thursday so we will have the latest numbers for Japan later. But it would be real interesting if at least someone in the industry could use their brains for something other than console warring, and try and look at whats really happening with game development in Japan, with interviews with Japanese developers and what they think of the situation. Because right now, the Japanese market is a barrel of gunpowder with the fuse lit and burning under Sonys ass. How long can they sustain being out of the competition before titles that traditionally have done well on Playstation, start to appear on other platforms (mainly Switch for Japan, but also PC day 1 and Cloud and in that context there is Xbox globally) instead or as multiplatform titles? Unless Sony do something about this (a total reorganisation of their Japanese division), this is something that imo will have repercussions on their business everywhere else.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Funny post, considering how Playstation has been doing in Japan.Ask 100 strangers to name a Xbox game... and they will answer:
Bo_Hazem
Banned
How in the hell do the “platform holders” just invent ways to make this work? What a dumb ass attitude. I would absolutely "resist the change" because the change isn't going to work for business. Companies generally don't exist to lose money. While Microsoft can do it because the Xbox division is basically subsidized by the divisions that make money, and always have been, Sony and Nintendo cannot afford that because they are not trillion dollar behemoths.
Sony has already said the subscription model doesn’t work for the kinds of games they make. We know MS loses money on Game Pass. But you think now you are owed cheap games? Your attitude is ... “not my problem.” So you want games at a price that’s WAY below what they cost to make, and you’re proud of that fact. Brilliant. Truly a sharp mind you have there.
Let me ask you this. Do you expect people to pay you for your work? I assume yes. I bet there is even a chance you think you are underpaid. But for some reason you think it’s your right, and Microsoft’s/Sony’s obligation, to have a service they subsidize so you don’t have to pay for your hobby. What a selfish and short sighted perspective. I don't see how you and similarly minded people don't see how this doesn't work out.
I happily pay full price for games, because I like supporting the creators. Just as I expect people who want me to work for them to pay me well, because I’ve worked hard to have rare and high end skills. It's called understanding value and respecting other people's labor. But no, you think "just give it all to me for a couple bucks." I mean, WTF.
But at the very least, we are entering the next phase of this, which of course I've been calling for years. And that phase is people being proud of not paying. I said this model is dangerous because it devalues software. I, and many others, were told we were crazy and got the typical "laugh" responses by the small core gang because that "just wouldn't happen" (much like @DarkMage619 did above, because he has no argument to respond with, and no leg to stand on, so he tries to rely on derision as a rhetorical defense. But he knows I'm right. He knows it). And lo and behold, look at the proud language being used by people saying no way do they want to pay anymore. But at the same time people want more, while demanding they pay less. But at least they are being open about it.
I don't know where this goes at this point, but people are at least drawing their line in the sand. Good luck trying to tell a business you don't want to pay for product though, while they need to figure out how to make it profitable. And then when they pack it all in you'll be standing there whining "but muh video games!"
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Maybe it's a play on words
Maybe he means they can sustain the losses for now lol
I'm kidding... kinda
PropellerEar
Member
LeftThumbstick
Member
What school did you go to lmao.
Even with the 25 million subs they have right now, they are making upwards of 150mil every month, assuming that most are paying the asking price of the subscription.
Over twelve months they are probably pulling in over a billion just on the subs alone, more than enough to fund first party game development.
That’s not even taking into account the people that don’t use GP and still purchase games at full retail price.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
And do you think they need 1 billion per year to cover the operating expenses of the gaming division (cloud cost + first-party game dev + 3rd party GP deals)? "What school did you go to lmao"
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Your main error is not even the bad maths, but the fact that you think that they only make money via Gamepass and literally nothing else.
Just one example, MLB probably cost a decent chunk of money to get day one on Gamepass. But it's also a great way to get a lot of people into the game, and some of those people might buy DLC (I think they're called packs?) which helps amortize the cost for Xbox since they get 30% of each purchase. So the real cost of getting the game on Gamepass is much lower than the nominal cost, and it's a win for MLB too.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I know that you don't see the irony, but I do, so it's funny to me.It wasn't meant to be funny.
GHG
Gold Member
It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
Thirty7ven
Banned
PlayStation is like Nintendo now, you can’t kill Nintendo.
They work with 20 million selling games these days, and as their PC market grows they will start working with 30 million selling games.
People also forget Sony doesn’t put their mobile market in PlayStation financials.
Their push for more live service games isn’t a shift in strategy either, they are simply adding.
If they can get a compelling service in Spartacus that focus on indies and starts adding major releases say 12 to 24 months after their launch, that’s another ace in the hole.
They will be fine. Still think they should buy Capcom/SE
They work with 20 million selling games these days, and as their PC market grows they will start working with 30 million selling games.
People also forget Sony doesn’t put their mobile market in PlayStation financials.
Their push for more live service games isn’t a shift in strategy either, they are simply adding.
If they can get a compelling service in Spartacus that focus on indies and starts adding major releases say 12 to 24 months after their launch, that’s another ace in the hole.
They will be fine. Still think they should buy Capcom/SE
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yurinka
Member
Great article, even if they forgot that Sony also has the biggest 3rd party support and VR, or that they are also expanding to mobile (where they already have a mobile game outside SIE generating over a Billion per year) and PC (where they sell millions of copies of several years old ports).
They are also the company with the biggest console userbase (111MAU).
Their console is where more games are sold (over 1700M on PS4 before the PS5 release).
They have the biggest games subscrpition service.
They are the ones with more exclusives in the GOTY winners or candidate lists of the last decade.
They have the biggest 3rd party support.
With PS4 and PS5 frequently break many gaming history records for any console platform in many areas.
They have 2 internal development Japanese studios plus a Japanese 2nd party publishing team. Plus basically all known Japanese 3rd party company has at least a PS4 exclusive and also publish most of their other games on PS too as multi or after a timed console exclusive elsewhere. Their console is the one with the biggest amount of Japanese games. They don't lack Japanese games.
Most games published by PS Studios aren't open world games, and their console is the one with the biggest amount of RPGs, both exclusive and multiplatform.
Regarding FPS, in addition to acquire Bungie who in addition to Destiny 2 seems they may publish a couple of new IPs in the next couple of years or so, they a 2nd party game made by former Bungie, Apex Legends or Bioshock Infinite folks and another one by former CoD BO, in addition to a multiplayer Guerrilla game being directed by the Rainbow Six Siege and Killzone 2 MP director. Plus also have all the multiplatform big guns, where their console is the biggest platform for them.
After Tencent Sony is the gaming company that makes more revenue.
They are also the company with the biggest console userbase (111MAU).
Their console is where more games are sold (over 1700M on PS4 before the PS5 release).
They have the biggest games subscrpition service.
They are the ones with more exclusives in the GOTY winners or candidate lists of the last decade.
They have the biggest 3rd party support.
With PS4 and PS5 frequently break many gaming history records for any console platform in many areas.
They have 2 internal development Japanese studios plus a Japanese 2nd party publishing team. Plus basically all known Japanese 3rd party company has at least a PS4 exclusive and also publish most of their other games on PS too as multi or after a timed console exclusive elsewhere. Their console is the one with the biggest amount of Japanese games. They don't lack Japanese games.
Most games published by PS Studios aren't open world games, and their console is the one with the biggest amount of RPGs, both exclusive and multiplatform.
Regarding FPS, in addition to acquire Bungie who in addition to Destiny 2 seems they may publish a couple of new IPs in the next couple of years or so, they a 2nd party game made by former Bungie, Apex Legends or Bioshock Infinite folks and another one by former CoD BO, in addition to a multiplayer Guerrilla game being directed by the Rainbow Six Siege and Killzone 2 MP director. Plus also have all the multiplatform big guns, where their console is the biggest platform for them.
Seems that subscriptions will continue growing (looking at Xbox and MS console userbase/fanbase until maybe doubling their corrent size), but still are a very small part of the business. Games sold or F2P generate most of the revenue in the business.
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Plus, mobile, VR, etc...
It's still selling 20x what Xbox is selling...so i don't see how his post is not valid.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The irony is that if you asked an 8 year old Japanese kid what he prefers, he likely wouldn't know what a Playstation is. That's how dominant the Switch has been in the past couple years.
I forgot that I could look at the FGO and Sony Music's gaming numbers, but FY20 was 1.3bn and currently in FY21, its around 786m. Down YOY around 16.7%.
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