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Sega seemed to hit its peak around early 1994, then WTF happened?

pramod

Banned
I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.

This was when they were on top of the world. They were outselling the SNES and pumping out hits like SOR2, Sonic 2/3, Shining Force, PS4, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA in the arcades.

Sega was at the peak of their creativity and quality. During this time they made some of the best games of all time. It's like they could do no wrong.

But by around 1994, cracks were beginning to show. SOR3 felt unfinished and rushed and didn't live up to SOR2. The Sega CD while popular never really took off.
Some of their other big games like Sonic CD and Eternal Champions failed to live up to the hype.

It just seemed like they started to lose focus around that time. Trying to do too many things and not focusing on just making great games. There might be some deeper reason behind it though.
 
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nush

Gold Member
It just seemed like they started to lose focus around that time. Trying to do too many things and not focusing on just making great games. There might be some deeper reason behind it though.

They were making a lot of money and used that to play catch up / stay ahead of the competition. They invested that money in hardware in a way to boost the software they were making. Rather than focusing on making better games with the hardware they had and investing in marketing and software tools.

PC Engine has a CD ROM - We need one too.
Nintendo put graphic enhancement chips in their cartridges - We need to do that too.
RPGs are now popular - We need to do that too.
 

nkarafo

Member
But by around 1994, cracks were beginning to show. SOR3 felt unfinished and rushed and didn't live up to SOR2.

That's only one game. Otherwise, the Genesis had it's best games during late 94 and 95. It had Sonic 3 & Knuckles, EWJ, Comix Zone, Vectorman. So Genesis was still great, maybe greater than before.

IMO, the issue started with the Sega CD. The console's focus on shitty FMV games hurt it a lot and left a very sour taste. Then you got the 32X as i mentioned. That console confused everyone and it was pretty awful. Then you got the rushed Saturn release that gimped it's launch games and Sony having some amazing looking launch games on Playstation and very strong marketing. Finally, you had all the talk about how the Saturn isn't as good as the Playstation when it comes to 3D graphics and that was the final nail on the coffin.
 

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Saturn, being a flop (combined with Playstation being a massive success) put them in a lot of debt and at odds with developers. Dreamcast never was able to overcome those losses, despite the love many have for the machine.

That's the quickest explanation you will ever get.
 

Scotty W

Gold Member
Too many peripherals and add ons. No focus.

I love the Saturn more than the PS1, but 3d was a bigger flash in the pan in those days. Not having a Sonic game was a big deal.

Sega of Japan should have got the American department under control. That would have vastly mitigated the damage.
 
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nkarafo

Member
You just used an unfinished (And patched) version of a game to make a point. They couldn't finish Sonic 3 in time.
I didn't use just that. I also used some other games in that post.

Either way, i didn't know shit about Sonic 3 being unfinished or Knuckles being a patch. Nobody knew better then. To me this game was amazing and better than than Sonic 1 and 2. Late 1994/95 was the peak for Mega Drive games IMO. Same as the SNES (Super Metroid, Yoshi's Island, DKC 1/2, etc).
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I honestly like Sega better now. I'd rather play Yakuza over virtually any classic Sega game, and Atlus/Creative Assembly are top-tier development teams.
 

phil_t98

#SonyToo
gaming changed and the way we played games changed. Sega were reliant on arcade experiences in the home in ht e early 3d era and games like Daytona and Sega rally were quickly completed.

on the play station we got the arcade experience in games like ridge racer which were much better quality than the Saturn games in terms of graphics and stuff but they also had games like wipeout which were much deeper in expierience

just my opinion
 

Alandring

Member
I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.
If you allow me to choose between Sega in the 90' and the last decade of Sega, I would choose the later without any hesitation.

With Total War, Football Manager and Humankind, Sega is one of the best PC publisher. And they also have the amazing output of Atlus (Persona, and the publishing of Vanillaware games) and Yakuzas.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Sega was a difficult company, with west and eastern branches at odds with eachother. They had the arcade market, that kind of declined during the later 90's. But also wanted to maintain the console market. Saturn launched without a Sonic game whatsoever to name an odd move and was haphazard in its design. They still targeted a rather limited demographic and betrayed their own fanbase by pulling the plug on Genesis, 32x just after it launched and the high price of Saturn. Which they also killed rather soon.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
I think the cracks started appearing circa 1992 when Project Saturn was launched, originally intended as a 2d powerhouse with modest 3d capabilities, they failed to take notice of writing on the wall, ie THEIR Virtua Fighter and Starfox was telling them where gaming was going, remember Sega was working in the arcade industry with the creme-de-la-creme of talent, i.e. Lockheed Martin for some of their titles, they left no stone unturned there....but in the home-market, things got skewed when Sony came to town...
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
SEGA happened, really. Internal cold fighting between the US and JP division, lack of focus beyond being edgier than Nintendo, serious mistakes on the hardware front, the surprise launch of the Saturn. After the Mortal Kombat debacle the SNES fought back fiercely on the software front, then PlayStation swept the rug from under SEGA’s feet with the $299 launch price, and the N64 was already looming on the horizon. After Sonic 2 and the original MK, Sega had literally nothing substantial to face all this on the most important front - games.
 
I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.

This was when they were on top of the world. They were outselling the SNES and pumping out hits like SOR2, Sonic 2/3, Shining Force, PS4, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA in the arcades.

Sega was at the peak of their creativity and quality. During this time they made some of the best games of all time. It's like they could do no wrong.

But by around 1994, cracks were beginning to show. SOR3 felt unfinished and rushed and didn't live up to SOR2. The Sega CD while popular never really took off.
Some of their other big games like Sonic CD and Eternal Champions failed to live up to the hype.

It just seemed like they started to lose focus around that time. Trying to do too many things and not focusing on just making great games. There might be some deeper reason behind it though.
Sega of Japan happened. Read the book Console Wars.
 

Star-Lord

Member
I'd just like to remind everyone that Sonic was never good.
I’d like to remind you that Sonic Adventure is the best-selling Dreamcast game of all time. 86K copies were sold in Europe in the first five days alone. As of 2006, it had sold 2.5M copies worldwide, including 440,000 in Japan and 1.27M in the US. It has 87% on GameRankings/Metacritic. So, tell me again, why was Sonic never good?
 
Sony happened. I mean they even lost their home market Japan.

But I suppose Sega never really had the resources that Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft could muster.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Sony demolished them

False sega imploded, SOA was batting a 1000 and sega of Japan was jealous so they actively hindered the hugely successful SOA at every turn leading up and going into the Saturn. If they would have let SOA drive the ship more the Saturn would have been very different hardware / marketing and the 32x would have never happened.
 
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nkarafo

Member
After Sonic 2 and the original MK, Sega had literally nothing substantial to face all this on the most important front - games.

They did have great games later on for the Genesis. It's just that the SNES had even stronger ones. As much as i love stuff like Comix Zone, Sonic & Knuckles, EWJ 1+2 and Vectorman, they are not as strong as Super Metroid, DKC 1/2, Yoshi's Island, etc. Especially the first DKC. Remember the massive (and successful) marketing this game had? They convinced everyone that the SNES could handle games only 32bit consoles can, thanks to the incredible use of pre-rendered sprites.

Later on the Genesis proved it could handle such graphics as well (Toy Story even looks better than DKC in parts). But there was no such marketing for Toy Story or Vectorman or Comix Zone. Plus, some of these games were ported on the SNES as well. Earthworm Jim was a pretty big one and could make a strong Genesis exclusive, but it was multiplatform.
 

yurinka

Member
Sony demolished them
Playstation is what happened.
Playstation happened
Before PlayStation Nintendo outsold Mega Drive with SNES, and Master System with NES. They also had the MegaCD and 32X flops. It's true that the first two PlayStation consoles dominated the market, but I think Nintendo and specially Sega also played an important role here.

Plus also the decline of -specially in the west- the arcade market which more or less happened at the same time than the rise of the popularity of 3D games and the home consoles. Sega did an awesome job with 3D arcade games, as they always did in arcades, but maybe the decline of the arcade market also affected them not only in the arcade side, but also in the home console side.

During the PlayStation/Saturn generation there were also a huge amount of new companies, and the AAA games of that age (3D games) required a way bigger staff than in the 16 bits generation, so maybe some key staff left around that time.

So while I agree that the big success of PlayStation may be the main goal, I think there may be other additonal important causes.
 
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winjer

Gold Member
Sega did a lot of mistakes in the 90's, and Sony did a lot to capitalize on it.

Releasing the 32X months before the Saturn
The Saturn hardware being too complicated, and Sega not giving third party devs their dlls to optimize performance. Resulting in many ports being inferior to the PSX.
Advancing the release of the Saturn several months, without warning to most devs and retailers. Resulting in many devs and retailers shunning the Saturn.
Not joining a partnership with Sony to make a console. Sony had been shunned by Nintendo and was looking for a new partner.
The Saturn was priced at 100$ more than the PSX.
Sega also relied a lot of arcade ports, at a time when gamers wanted games with more expansive content.
 
I think there's no doubt to anyone that "peak Sega" was around 1992 to early 1994.
Speak for yourself.

SEGA in the 80's was in a league of its own in the Arcades, Outrun and Powerdrift were a class above anything out there and for in the home 1995/7 was SEGA at its very peak. There was nothing wrong with Bare Knuckle 3 either and Sonic CD remains the best 2D Sonic game SEGA made in House.
 

ksdixon

Member
Too many peripherals and add ons. No focus.

I love the Saturn more than the PS1, but 3d was a bigger flash in the pan in those days. Not having a Sonic game was a big deal.

Sega of Japan should have got the American department under control. That would have vastly mitigated the damage.
Say what? Im rusty, but SOJ forced SOA to market, and I think finish developing the Pico, CD, 32X whilst SOJ turned to the Saturn development, where they'd later refuse to listen to SOA's tech specs for Saturn and DC.

They were too ashamed that SOA had made the MD a seller after it languished overseas, and made Sonic a seller too after SOJ's more weird ideas with him.
 
Sega did a lot of mistakes in the 90's, and Sony did a lot to capitalize on it.

Releasing the 32X months before the Saturn
The Saturn hardware being too complicated, and Sega not giving third party devs their dlls to optimize performance. Resulting in many ports being inferior to the PSX.
Advancing the release of the Saturn several months, without warning to most devs and retailers. Resulting in many devs and retailers shunning the Saturn.
Not joining a partnership with Sony to make a console. Sony had been shunned by Nintendo and was looking for a new partner.
The Saturn was priced at 100$ more than the PSX.
Sega also relied a lot of arcade ports, at a time when gamers wanted games with more expansive content.
SEGA was not offered the PS hardware, the one company that had a contract to work with SONY and sell PS was Nintendo and after that, the head of SONY said they must go alone and chart their own course
The PS2 and especially the PS3 were complicated, not that that seemed to matter. Never mind that both the PS2 and PS3 were priced over £100 more than their competitors and I seem to remember everyone raving about how good Tekken and Ridge Rage Arcade ports were.

The main issue was were had SEGA America thinking that the price of the 32X alone would win and then also cocking up Sonic 32bit development
 

winjer

Gold Member
SEGA was not offered the PS hardware, the one company that had a contract to work with SONY and sell PS was Nintendo and after that, the head of SONY said they must go alone and chart their own course
The PS2 and especially the PS3 were complicated, not that that seemed to matter. Never mind that both the PS2 and PS3 were priced over £100 more than their competitors and I seem to remember everyone raving about how good Tekken and Ridge Rage Arcade ports were.

The main issue was were had SEGA America thinking that the price of the 32X alone would win and then also cocking up Sonic 32bit development

I didn't say that Sega was offered the PS hardware.
 

JPSLotus97T

Member
The Saturn was a great system if you could get past the flaws it had.

I still remember buying X-Men vs Street Fighter and firing that up with the 4MB cart. Never saw such a pretty game on a home console till that one. But a lot of good games never made it to America for the Saturn. That was the kiss of death; not releasing the great Japanese games.

Sega's decline really happened with the Dreamcast. One of my favorite systems, but it came out at the absolute wrong time.
 

nkarafo

Member
Saturn and Dreamcast were both great hardwares, especially Dreamcast.
Eh, the Saturn wasn't that great. It was hard to program for and it's 3D capabilities weren't as good as the Playstation's. You had to do extra work for things the others could do easily (transparencies for instance).

N64 also had issues. Some bottlenecks here and there and the lack of CD, which was beneficial to publishers. Again, it was a harder console to push than the Playstation.

Playstation was a better designed, more balanced hardware. Easier to program. I can see this even though i prefer the N64 personally.
 

cireza

Banned
Playstation was a better designed, more balanced hardware. Easier to program.
Sure. But Saturn was a more elaborated hardware with both 2D and 3D dedicated capabilities, while both PS1 and N64 dropped 2D dedicated hardware. It was a great console and many games demonstrate its capabilities, both in 2D and 3D. Transparency is a feature, it was more complicated for various reason, but this is only one thing in end. Everything does not revolve around transparency...
 
too heavy a focus on arcade style software at home when the home console market was moving away from that.
Underrated post.

I love me some Sega man, and to this very day I'm the proud owner of a Genesis, a Saturn (well, two of them actually 😂), and a Dreamcast, and I still play them regularly. But, especially with the Dreamcast, the breadth and depth of the library is lacking, compared to its gen 6 competitors. Too many arcade and arcade-style games.
 

DGrayson

Mod Team and Bat Team
Staff Member
Saturn and Dreamcast were both great hardwares, especially Dreamcast. And there are loads of fantastic games on both consoles.

Sony shifted the market attention to other games, that's what happened.

Saturn was ok, but it was obviously rushed. It came out before it was ready. Plenty of literature on that. And given the fact that they rushed the Saturn which was dying faster than the Playstaion, the tried to get a jump on next gen by releasing the Dreamcast. Yes a great system I got one near launch but again it was brought early to beat the competition.
 

cireza

Banned
Yes a great system I got one near launch but again it was brought early to beat the competition.
And it was the best you could do in 1998, without a doubt.

As for Saturn being rushed, maybe in terms of tools. But in terms of hardware, their intention had always been to merge both 2D and 3D capabilities. And SEGA were well versed in multi-CPU development in the arcades. Many 3D games on Saturn are outstanding for their time by the way.
 

DGrayson

Mod Team and Bat Team
Staff Member
And it was the best you could do in 1998, without a doubt.

As for Saturn being rushed, maybe in terms of tools. But in terms of hardware, their intention had always been to merge both 2D and 3D capabilities. And SEGA were well versed in multi-CPU development in the arcades. Many 3D games on Saturn are outstanding for their time by the way.

I love the Saturn don't get me wrong, but there is more to consider than hardware and dev tools. As I understand Sega USA was blindsided by the announcement of the early Saturn launch, so you have to imagine this affected their marketing ability as well.
 
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