Support NeoGAF

[Filben]

IIRC he only felt it was absolutely necessary for Elden Ring.

He then probably haven't played Borderlands 3 in Splitscreen. Frame rate is all over the place in resolution mode. Haven't tried it yet with VRR but I imagine it makes it more bearable.

Generally speaking I'd say console games won't benefit as much as PC games where a FPS cap is often tied to V-Sync which produces input lag but can be disabled by the user which then produces tearing and inconsistent frame times on the other hand and FPS may also exceed the monitor's refresh rate. These scenarios are not as frequent on console.

But not needing to rely on v-sync on console would be amazing there, too, because we'll lose the input lag delay and still have consistent frame pacing due to VRR.

So after all one more feature that improves the experience down the line and in certain scenarios already and overdue since PS4 to be honest.

 

[Rea]

So I've read that VRR in XR-65X90J turns off local dimming if you enable VRR.

What does this mean? Image quality takes a hit?

Yes, turning off Local dimming will make pictures wash out on LCD. That's the limitation when using on LCD panels. Many other LCD brands does the same thing. If i remember correctly only Samsung lcds has VRR and local dimming both enable in game mode.

 

[ZywyPL]

These scenarios are not as frequent on console.

Hopefully since now both consoles have the feature situation will be more frequent, and more newer games will offer unlocked FPS.

 

[yamaci17]

He then probably haven't played Borderlands 3 in Splitscreen. Frame rate is all over the place in resolution mode. Haven't tried it yet with VRR but I imagine it makes it more bearable.

Generally speaking I'd say console games won't benefit as much as PC games where a FPS cap is often tied to V-Sync which produces input lag but can be disabled by the user which then produces tearing and inconsistent frame times on the other hand and FPS may also exceed the monitor's refresh rate. These scenarios are not as frequent on console.

But not needing to rely on v-sync on console would be amazing there, too, because we'll lose the input lag delay and still have consistent frame pacing due to VRR.

So after all one more feature that improves the experience down the line and in certain scenarios already and overdue since PS4 to be honest.

on pc, you can just enable full 144 hz container and cap the frames to 120. that way you guarantee that fps can never exceed monitor's refresh rate

blurbusters and some other websites suggest 138 fps+vsync. honestly, i hate the idea of vsync engaging in any form or shape. my idea however can be streched to 130-132 fps. but above 135+ fps, it is easy to breach 144 fps and have tears and judders

 

[Shmunter]

So I've read that VRR in XR-65X90J turns off local dimming if you enable VRR.

What does this mean? Image quality takes a hit?

Yeah, turns it into a $199 Cosco special

 

[DeepEnigma]

Oh jeez another acronym??

Called it.

 

[Filben]

on pc, you can just enable full 144 hz container and cap the frames to 120. that way you guarantee that fps can never exceed monitor's refresh rate

Exactly, that's another thing you have to do. Once it's set-up you don't ever need to look back. You can't do that on console though and in most cases it won't be necessary either (a console game exceeding 120Hz of those recent TVs for example).

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Spiderman fidelity mode running at 40-50 fps is just wild. Locking it to 30 leaves so much performance on the table for no good reason. I don't want to see people advocate for locked framerates ever again Of course a locked mode should exist for people without VRR TVs, but give me an unlocked VRR mode in every single game.

 

[01011001]

I have found evidence of Low Framerate Compensation on PS5

I downloaded the Matrix Demo on both consoles and searched for a way to get consistent framedrops that aren't stutters/spikes that go below 24fps. (as even with LFC the lower bounds on PS5 will be 24fps which translates to 48hz)

and I found a way. standing in a specific spot and moving the sun position back and forth forces Lumen to re-render the lighting which causes GPU related drops it seems.

first Xbox:


and here PS5:


both drop similarly here and are just between 30fps and 24fps it seems, giving us refresh rates of ~50hz +/- 2fps

 

[Shmunter]

I have found evidence of Low Framerate Compensation on PS5

I downloaded the Matrix Demo on both consoles and searched for a way to get consistent framedrops that aren't stutters/spikes that go below 24fps. (as even with LFC the lower bounds on PS5 will be 24fps which translates to 48hz)

and I found a way. standing in a specific spot and moving the sun position back and forth forces Lumen to re-render the lighting which causes GPU related drops it seems.

first Xbox:


and here PS5:


both drop similarly here and are just between 30fps and 24fps it seems, giving us refresh rates of ~50hz +/- 2fps

Interesting, suspect the game/engine is doing it

 

[scydrex]

Spiderman fidelity mode running at 40-50 fps is just wild. Locking it to 30 leaves so much performance on the table for no good reason. I don't want to see people advocate for locked framerates ever again Of course a locked mode should exist for people without VRR TVs, but give me an unlocked VRR mode in every single game.

Glad they added the 40fps mode for 120hz too. Haven't tried it but from what I read is better tjsn 30fps. For 120hz user should be 40, 60 and 120fps.

 

[01011001]

Interesting, suspect the game/engine is doing it

that's usually what games do. a 30fps game usually sends out 60fps by doubling every frame.

which leads me back to Insomniac's 40fps 120hz modes being clearly broken when combined with VRR. it clearly isn't optimised for VRR as it seemingly doesn't correctly support low framerate compensation, which on PS5 is fatal due to the lowest bound for VRR support on it being 48hz. this is why we see the refresh rates go completely nuts in those modes.

so Insomniac needs to change how that mode behaves in future updates and make sure it doubles every frame

 

[DJ12]

that's usually what games do. a 30fps game usually sends out 60fps by doubling every frame.

which leads me back to Insomniac's 40fps 120hz modes being clearly broken when combined with VRR. it clearly isn't optimised for VRR as it seemingly doesn't correctly support low framerate compensation, which on PS5 is fatal due to the lowest bound for VRR support on it being 48hz. this is why we see the refresh rates go completely nuts in those modes.

so Insomniac needs to change how that mode behaves in future updates and make sure it doubles every frame

And yet we have videos showing the framerate being about 50fps meaning that isn't the case.

I think nxg briefly showed this using his vrr capture card too, but we should probably wait for his full ign video which he said was coming out this week sometime.

 

[01011001]

And yet we have videos showing the framerate being about 50fps meaning that isn't the case.

I think nxg briefly showed this using his vrr capture card too, but we should probably wait for his full ign video which he said was coming out this week sometime.

show me that video where it is about 50fps, whatever that means... and tell me how that is relevant to what I've said...

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

you can't compare PC to console. I use LFC for Elden Ring on Xbox because it can dip below 48hz and my old ass TV only supports 48hz-120hz, and the game literally AT ALL TIMES doubles the frames it renders. so if it is at 60fps it sends out 120hz, if it is at 50fps it's 100hz and so on. it never deviates from that at any point. and every game on Xbox works that way

Resident Evil 8, Watch Dogs 3, Elden Ring, Sekiro etc. they all work that way because the Xbox has build in LFC for games that run at 60fps and below when 120hz is engaged, and I'm pretty sure the same is the case for 30fps and below when 60hz is engaged

so this seems to be yet another thing that the Xbox's VRR implementation does better than the PS5's and something the PS5 would benefit from should Sony be interested to implement this down the line.

You just described exactly what I was talking about. On XBox, the game runs in a 120Hz container meaning you have the headroom to double the refresh rate for lower frame rates. PS5 doesn't do that unless the game is specifically designed to run in a 120Hz container.

 

[01011001]

You just described exactly what I was talking about. On XBox, the game runs in a 120Hz container meaning you have the headroom to double the refresh rate for lower frame rates. PS5 doesn't do that unless the game is specifically designed to run in a 120Hz container.

then I'm not sure how anything you said is relevant to the topic. especially with that 2.5x refresh part...

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

on pc, you can just enable full 144 hz container and cap the frames to 120. that way you guarantee that fps can never exceed monitor's refresh rate

blurbusters and some other websites suggest 138 fps+vsync. honestly, i hate the idea of vsync engaging in any form or shape. my idea however can be streched to 130-132 fps. but above 135+ fps, it is easy to breach 144 fps and have tears and judders

FYI, vsync would never engage if your frame rate never hits the max refresh rate. However, when I was on my AMD system, I did notice the odd tear here and there if I didn't have vsync on even with FreeSync active and fps capped at 140fps.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

then I'm not sure how anything you said is relevant to the topic. especially with that 2.5x refresh part...

Because if a game is running in a 60Hz container, and your VRR range is 48-60Hz, then you obviously don't qualify for LFC.

Say you're running a game that doesn't have 120Hz support and your frame rate drops down to 46fps... how is it going to double to keep VRR active? What about 45, 44, 43 etc? Sure, 29fps would work as then the refresh rate would just be 58Hz, but anything between 31-47 is off the table.

 

[Mr Moose]

And yet we have videos showing the framerate being about 50fps meaning that isn't the case.

I think nxg briefly showed this using his vrr capture card too, but we should probably wait for his full ign video which he said was coming out this week sometime.

If it drops below 48 is when LFC should kick in, which would duplicate the frames below it. I think it would then be something like 94Hz @ 47fps? (If I understand it correctly).
With it dipping back and forth between 48+fps and 47-fps it might cause the Hz on the screen to bounce between 48+Hz and 94-Hz.
It won't have that problem without VRR because it's locked to 40 on a 120Hz screen.

 

[01011001]

Because if a game is running in a 60Hz container, and your VRR range is 48-60Hz, then you obviously don't qualify for LFC.

Say you're running a game that doesn't have 120Hz support and your frame rate drops down to 46fps... how is it going to double to keep VRR active? What about 45, 44, 43 etc? Sure, 29fps would work as then the refresh rate would just be 58Hz, but anything between 31-47 is off the table.

but that's not how the consoles do things... they clearly output either 60hz or 120hz containers, both of them... we only have a single set of games so far that demonstrates weird behaviour at 120hz and all are from the same dev team.

the Matrix demo works as you would expect and any other game too.

we would need a 120hz game with a mode that targets 60fps to test if games are made to do things differently on PS5, which wouldn't really make sense

 

[yamaci17]

FYI, vsync would never engage if your frame rate never hits the max refresh rate. However, when I was on my AMD system, I did notice the odd tear here and there if I didn't have vsync on even with FreeSync active and fps capped at 140fps.

yes, because 140 is very close to 144. game can have erratic jumps above 144 fps at such a framerate target.

thats why i myself target 120 fps. its an aggresive target but it works quite well.

i think there's a metric called %99 or something that displays the odd, high framerates that are way above average. that could tell us something about frametime jumps

so let's see

when the game is locked to 120 fps, it jumps to 134 fps per %99 percentile fps metric

when the game is locked to 137 fps, it jumps to 150 fps per %99 percentile fps metric

so when it jumps to 150, it creates that random tear you see every once and a while

this is why aggresive fps limiting at 120 fps works for me.

i know that vsync does not engage when you're below the limit, but i still don't trust vsync in general. i hate it , nothing personal

(yes i still play tf2 even with a 3070. pls dont judge me , ive been playing it since 2008 it always has a place in my heart. and yes i still dont like overwatch and find tf2 more fun)

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

but that's not how the consoles do things... they clearly output either 60hz or 120hz containers, both of them... we only have a single set of games so far that demonstrates weird behaviour at 120hz and all are from the same dev team.

the Matrix demo works as you would expect and any other game too.

we would need a 120hz game with a mode that targets 60fps to test if games are made to do things differently on PS5, which wouldn't really make sense

It's literally impossible to activate LFC when you only have 48-60Hz VRR range. Anything within 31-47 would fall outside of the VRR range and you would get stutters. Prove me wrong please.

 

[Putonahappyface]

 

[01011001]

It's literally impossible to activate LFC when you only have 48-60Hz VRR range. Anything within 31-47 would fall outside of the VRR range and you would get stutters. Prove me wrong please.

again how is this relevant to anything I said? it's like you are talking to yourself about arguments noone made.

I say games on console have SO FAR always operated either in 60hz containers for anything 60fps and lower or 120hz containers for anything between 120fps and 61fps or on Xbox when 120hz is forced also for 60fps and lower... without exception.

the only exception we know of so far seems to be the recently patched Insomniac games, which have a fidelity mode that seems to behave really weirdly and makes no real sense when looking at refresh counters of any display they were demonstrated so far, including mine.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

the only exception we know of so far seems to be the recently patched Insomniac games, which have a fidelity mode that seems to behave really weirdly and makes no real sense when looking at refresh counters of any display they were demonstrated so far, including mine.

form what John said on tweeter insomniac implemented lfc in 40fps uncaped vrr mode, tv sometimes just struggle to show refresh rate properly

 

[DemonCleaner]

C9 you need to press 1 repeatedly(5-6 times)over Chanel tuning. There’s also more data in the hdmi info

sorry, can you explain that a bit more detailed for stupids like me

 

[intbal]

again how is this relevant to anything I said? it's like you are talking to yourself about arguments noone made.

I say games on console have SO FAR always operated either in 60hz containers for anything 60fps and lower or 120hz containers for anything between 120fps and 61fps or on Xbox when 120hz is forced also for 60fps and lower... without exception.

the only exception we know of so far seems to be the recently patched Insomniac games, which have a fidelity mode that seems to behave really weirdly and makes no real sense when looking at refresh counters of any display they were demonstrated so far, including mine.

Well, not the only exception. The Arkham Asylum remaster for Xbox and Condemned: Criminal Origins for Xbox 360 (BC), both operate at fixed 45hz. Giving them more power doesn't change that. So they are clearly architected for 22.22ms frame updates.

Unless you mean something else by "60hz container".

 

[FrankWza]

sorry, can you explain that a bit more detailed for stupids like me

Sure, but It’s not exactly what was being discussed since there is no real time frame rate or vrr indicator.

Go to settings-all settings scroll down to channels then press right and highlight channel tuning and press 1 5 times. Then inside there there’s your info and 2 more options to scroll and select called hdmi and more. More is just WiFi diagnostics though.

On remote:
-Gear/settings button
-all settings
-channels
-cursor over channel tuning(highlighted)
-press #1button 5 times

 

[twilo99]

oh, I know.. the question was for the non believers.

 

[Gambit2483]

One has direct impact on actual gameplay and the other doesn't. Decide for yourself.

Yes, but people have been hyping Ray Tracing as the "next big thing"...and I know VRR is not "new" but I think more people now understand its significance.

Hence I'm curious to see if people still put Ray Tracing on a higher pedestal

 

[thatJohann]

Insomniac games got new patches just now. I bet VRR related.

 

[01011001]

Insomniac games got new patches just now. I bet VRR related.

testing it right after the patch has copied -_- god damn, how is that still a thing?

edit: refresh in Spider-Man Remastered still erratic in fidelity mode... but average Framerates seem a bit higher... I think... not much but it feels slightly smoother

 

[Arioco]

Insomniac games got new patches just now. I bet VRR related.

Official patch notes:

• Addressed issues around incorrect menu localizations for VRR-related options.

 

[01011001]

Official patch notes:

yeah I have seen no real change... I thought performance might be a bit smoother but performance is highly variable depending on where you are.

weird tho lol, I wonder what these incorrect localisations were

 

[NeonGhost]

What’s the point of the option for unsupported games if it doesn’t turn on all of them

 

[MasterCornholio]

What’s the point of the option for unsupported games if it doesn’t turn on all of them

Because it works with Elden Ring.

 

[Pipescl]

I don’t know what technology or sorcery is behind this, but I’ve tested both Spider-Man and they look fluid AF in my LG C1

 

[Chris_Rivera]

Of course the bitch asses at Housemarque can’t be bothered to add a VRR mode on Returnal. Not only would it be a perfect game for the improved input lag of a 120hz refresh rate, but perhaps even a better than 2012 resolution standard. They kinda suck sometimes.

 

[DJ12]

testing it right after the patch has copied -_- god damn, how is that still a thing?

edit: refresh in Spider-Man Remastered still erratic in fidelity mode... but average Framerates seem a bit higher... I think... not much but it feels slightly smoother

I've spammed the ryno in Ratchet and clank to get it to drop down to 48 fps (never lower obviously) so vrr is definitely working across the full range in fidelity mode.

I made a video of a spot that was around 60 fps and you can see it hovering around there for multiple updates at a time and the jump back to 120 with no noticeable change in fps.

Either the engine is adding duplicate frames at specific points or the counter is just broken with the ps5 implementation.



Spamming the ryno I have seen 60 on the counter also.

 

[NeonGhost]

I've spammed the ryno in Ratchet and clank to get it to drop down to 48 fps (never lower obviously) so vrr is definitely working across the full range in fidelity mode.

I made a video of a spot that was around 60 fps and you can see it hovering around there for multiple updates at a time and the jump back to 120 with no noticeable change in fps.

Either the engine is adding duplicate frames at specific points or the counter is just broken with the ps5 implementation.

It’s because the vrr information won’t show anything below 60fps your game is dropping below 60fps that’s why you see that jump to 120 of the counter

 

[DJ12]

It’s because the vrr information won’t show anything below 60fps your game is dropping below 60fps that’s why you see that jump to 120 of the counter

Check the updated post you can see 58 there. It goes down to 48 in other parts of a video. Just could be bothered with the uploading to YouTube.


It's a bit compressed but this goes from 49 to 54 then 58 and finishes on 69 (giggidy)

 

[Shmunter]

Of course the bitch asses at Housemarque can’t be bothered to add a VRR mode on Returnal. Not only would it be a perfect game for the improved input lag of a 120hz refresh rate, but perhaps even a better than 2012 resolution standard. They kinda suck sometimes.

is it confirmed not to work with the global checkbox?

 

[Chris_Rivera]

is it confirmed not to work with the global checkbox?

Yes, but 60hz refresh rate.

They need to at least do what Insomniacs did and unlock the frame rate and use a background refresh of 120hz. A dynamic resolution would be even better. I’m not sure why Sony didn’t just do what MS does and always use a 120hz refresh for everything if the display can

 

[Inviusx]

So I'm reading that in Elden Ring, VRR reduces stuttering in Performance mode as the FPS delivery is usually between 48-60, but in cases where it may drop below 48 we should still expect stuttering, does that sound right?

I'm also assuming that Quality mode would be useless with the current VRR implementation as the FPS delivery in that mode is rarely even 48 to begin with.

Does that all sound about right?

 

[Shmunter]

Yes, but 60hz refresh rate.

They need to at least do what Insomniacs did and unlock the frame rate and use a background refresh of 120hz. A dynamic resolution would be even better. I’m not sure why Sony didn’t just do what MS does and always use a 120hz refresh for everything if the display can

Ok, but I assume the game doesn’t stray too far from its target so VRR should be effective even at 60.

But yes I agree otherwise.

 

[kyliethicc]

Yes, but 60hz refresh rate.

They need to at least do what Insomniacs did and unlock the frame rate and use a background refresh of 120hz. A dynamic resolution would be even better. I’m not sure why Sony didn’t just do what MS does and always use a 120hz refresh for everything if the display can

Would be a waste, forces 422 instead 444 for no reason.

And a TV may have worse IQ when displaying 4K 120 Hz signals, but be fine at 4K 60 Hz, like the Sony X900H.

PS5 does it the right way.
4K60 HDR10 12 bit 444 for the OS and most games (60 or 30 Hz).
SDR games drop from HDR10 to SDR.
4K 120 Hz games drop from 444 to 422.

Most of the time the content displayed isn’t 120 Hz content, so there’s no need. Would be like outputting 24 Hz BDs at 48 Hz.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

Would be a waste, forces 422 instead 444 for no reason.

And a TV may have worse IQ when displaying 4K 120 Hz signals, but be fine at 4K 60 Hz, like the Sony X900H.

PS5 does it the right way.
4K60 HDR10 12 bit 444 for the OS and most games (60 or 30 Hz).
SDR games drop from HDR10 to SDR.
4K 120 Hz games drop from 444 to 422.

Most of the time the content displayed isn’t 120 Hz content, so there’s no need. Would be like outputting 24 Hz BDs at 48 Hz.

That’s only because outputting 12bit is a waste on a PS5 for gaming. Hence why Series X gives you the option to actually choose a proper signal.

 

[kyliethicc]

That’s only because outputting 12bit is a waste on a PS5 for gaming. Hence why Series X gives you the option to actually choose a proper signal.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

There are no 12bit panels/TVs available, so 10bit is all that’s needed atm.

 

[DJ12]

Interesting video.

In summary us Sony fans have been sold a lie, VRR doesn't just work.

Even with an unlocked framerate and 120 hz mode one console just canna do it.

Bit of a shit show on the other one also apart from 120 mode. Looks like both need some sort of VRR update