Support NeoGAF

[DarkMage619]

Good, the more GaaS fail, the less devs will waste resources on them.

This game is not a GaaS. People seem to use that term to define any game they don't like.

 

[Spukc]

I mean...the game's trash. How is this news?

Nah it was great fun tbh.

The only thing that fucking sucked was the endgame.

And i think the new dlc is supposed to fix that?

Shame i can’t play this on the steamdeck

 

[cormack12]

Nah it was great fun tbh.

The only thing that fucking sucked was the endgame.

And i think the new dlc is supposed to fix that?

Shame i can’t play this on the steamdeck

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people didn't play this. I don't know why games have to be amazing or shite. It's like resetera levels of extremity.

Even Godfall gets a bad rap. As for outriders, it's a good co-op game, has really good mechanics. The mods and that are pretty simple to understand and farm for.

The end game (expeditions?) isn't great as you say. Just poor monster hunting in truth.

Although I'm not a PvP type I think it would breathe new life into the game as well. Especially if they kept the RUSH nature of the campaign. Something like gear's sized maps.

They need more interesting repetitive content basically.

 

[SJRB]

Square: *releases game in catastrophically bad state*
*Game doesn't turn profit*
Square:

These guys are the absolute kings of mishandling game IP's. It's just a never-ending stream of mismanagement and bad decisions. Awful, awful publisher.

 

[Exanthus]

Gamepass living rent free in people's heads again. Such bait topics.

 

[arvfab]

This game is not a GaaS. People seem to use that term to define any game they don't like.

Mea culpa, going by the beta and how it was marketed, it looked like a GaaS.


... but it still is online only (which for me is equally bad as being GaaS, and not that different as once the "service" of it being online is gone, so is the game), so good it failed.

 

[winjer]

This CEO's constant push into GAAS and NFTs, is going to kill Square-Enix.
Flop after flop. And betting on NFTs when the market is crashing. What a moron.

 

[Three]

Trying to spin this as a game pass issue after seeing exactly how bad Square has managed their studios and constantly keep throwing them under the bus is just plain weird.

Game Pass also wouldn't have any bearing on sales on other platforms. Even on Xbox and PC you can still buy this at retail separately as well.

Why is that bad now when people were doing the opposite before? Saying that Outriders is a huge success even on other platforms because of gamepass.

Just look at the other thread where people thought there was positive sales and then spinning that into "the gamepass effect" . People shitposting with "gamepass effect" now are just poking fun at those people's past posts of turning steam sales into "the gamepass effect" when sales weren't even that great:

I am pretty sure there is Game Pass effect there. First is that Game Pass essentially turned the game into akin F2P games thus people are willing to spend more on the game + word of mouth allowing people playing on other consoles to start playing the game + cross play (I think it has one). Even if they don't have Game Pass, people who played there will say something good about it and people on other platforms will be willing to buy or try the game.

It will be hilarious if Game Pass helps with sales on Playstation too

Outriders is also by far the most popular Square Enix game on Steam. The power of Gamepass.

Now people want to turn that into a SE problem and distance it from gamepass. Success isn't due to SE instead it's GP but failure is due to SE and not GP. That's what people are doing.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Why is that bad now when people were doing the opposite before? Saying that Outriders is a huge success even on other platforms because of gamepass.

Just look at the other thread where people thought there was positive sales and then spinning that into "the gamepass effect" . People shitposting with "gamepass effect" now are just poking fun at those people's past posts of turning steam sales into "the gamepass effect" when sales weren't even that great:





Now people want to turn that into a SE problem and distance it from gamepass. Success isn't due to SE instead it's GP but failure is due to SE and not GP. That's what people are doing.

SE's expectations were exceeded, especially with the digital version of the game. That SE ultimately couldn't turn a profit with it is their fault alone. We're talking about a publisher who sells tens of millions of games from a certain franchise and still can't turn a profit. But yeah, let's blame Gamepass.

 

[Three]

SE's expectations were exceeded, especially with the digital version of the game. That SE ultimately couldn't turn a profit with it is their fault alone. We're talking about a publisher who sells tens of millions of games from a certain franchise and still can't turn a profit. But yeah, let's blame Gamepass.

It exceeded their expectations yet didn't turn a profit? So they expected to make a loss when they set out to make the game?

You were the one trying to attribute Steam sales to "the power of gamepass". Now you don't like it when people do it the other way. I remember you trying to paint the picture of how much of a success it is due to gamepass and that Returnal was a flop.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

It exceeded their expectations yet didn't turn a profit?

Ask them, they said it.

You were the one trying to attribute Steam sales to "the power of gamepass". Now you don't like it when people do it the other way. I remember you trying to paint the picture of how much of a success it is due to gamepass and that Returnal was a flop.

If I remember correctly, you said that Outriders was a flop, I then pointed out that it sold several times better than Returnal, and you got mad. Apparently you still can't let it go

 

[Three]

Ask them, they said it.

If I remember correctly, you said that Outriders was a flop, I then pointed out that it sold several times better than Returnal, and you got mad. Apparently you still can't let it go

You remember incorrectly. You came into an NPD thread saying Returnal is a flop and I said I find it hilarious that you think Returnal is a flop but rave on about how much of a success Outriders is. Then you tried to convince me that outriders is a huge success, all thanks to gamepass. They released at around the same time so I guess that was your angle. Now this information is public. Outriders wasn't the huge success you thought it was.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Outriders wasn't the huge success you thought it was.

Again, it exceeded SE's expectations. When a publisher is incompetent, they can for example sell 38 million games and still not make a profit. This doesn't make the games less successful, it just shows the incompetence of the publisher. It certainly has nothing to do with Gamepass.

 

[Dick Jones]

Again, it exceeded SE's expectations. When a publisher is incompetent, they can for example sell 38 million games and still not make a profit. This doesn't make the games less successful, it just shows the incompetence of the publisher. It certainly has nothing to do with Gamepass.

Same energy

 

[SomeGit]

Once you create the expectation that SE games are going to show up on Gamepass why buy them when you can just wait?

Why buy games day one when you can buy them cheap a year later, that expectation is also there? Yet games still sell day one. No one knew that Avangers was coming to GP on September 2020, the game flipping had nothing to do with people waiting for it to hit GP.

If all of these games were appealing they'd sell, regardless of maybe coming to game pass many months later.

 

[nominedomine]

Explain why it didn't sell well on ps5?

Since gamepass people act like their weren't commercial failures in gaming and every game made money. News flash, there were tons of failed games sales wise and beloved cult games that sold like shit but people enjoyed them.

I completed this game thanks to game pass and I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole other wise....looks like plenty of console owners and PC gamers didn't go anywhere near it which is somewhat of a shame because the gameplay loop was pretty cool.

The reality is square Enix don't know their arse from their elbow.

I would love to explain but I got a warning so I wish you all good luck on this one. Seems like just having a different opinion isn't acceptable behavior here, so I'll conform:

I love Gamepass, I want all games to be on Gamepass, it's the best deal in gaming, I'll be happy once I can play everything for $15 a month. The more publishers or devs MS buys, the more games are going to be on Gamepass and the happier I'll be. I'm all about paying as little as I can, the only thing better than Gamepass for me would be if all games went F2P.

Why buy games day one when you can buy them cheap a year later, that expectation is also there? Yet games still sell day one. No one knew that Avangers was coming to GP on September 2020, the game flipping had nothing to do with people waiting for it to hit GP.

If all of these games were appealing they'd sell, regardless of maybe coming to game pass many months later.

Exactly, a lot of people already wait for discount imagine now where the expectation is to get it for free.

 

[SomeGit]

Exactly, a lot of people already wait for discount imagine now where the expectation is to get it for free.

Yet games still sell on the launch window, sometimes the majority of their sales, if the crowd that waits for discount doesn't impact the games sales on ALL platforms, why would the people waiting for it to hit GP on arguably the lowest selling platform?

This is the dumbest discussion I've ever seen. What's next Babylon's Fall and Balan also flopped because of the expectation of GP?

 

[nominedomine]

Yet games still sell on the launch window, sometimes the majority of their sales, if the crowd that waits for discount doesn't impact the games sales on ALL platforms, why would the people waiting for it to hit GP on arguably the lowest selling platform?

Nintendo is the only publisher that understands this. They give no expectation of heavy discounts and their games sell like no other.

This phenomenon is known since forever, it was pretty clear when Steam sales started. It happened on mobile where charging for a game became impossible and it's clearly happening to console games as well. It happened to indie games.

In the end there is no magic and you get what you paid for, when fans stop putting as much money in the games because they know if they just wait they pay as little as nothing instead of $60 or $70, then those games will stop being funded. Gamepass isn't the only way this is being done, it's just one of the ways.

Would Elden Ring have sold as much if past From Software games had all been heavily discounted soon after release or put into a subscription service? Certainly not.

 

[Three]

Again, it exceeded SE's expectations. When a publisher is incompetent, they can for example sell 38 million games and still not make a profit. This doesn't make the games less successful, it just shows the incompetence of the publisher. It certainly has nothing to do with Gamepass.

The issue was that you didn't even know sales figures. You were going by 'the gamepass effect", using player counts. I was trying to convince you that sales weren't that great and that Returnal on PS5 outsold Outriders on PS4+PS5. Water under the bridge now anyway.

 

[Spaceman292]

The Gamepass effect.

The 'bad game' effect

 

[SomeGit]

Nintendo is the only publisher that understands this. They give no expectation of heavy discounts and their games sell like no other.

This phenomenon is known since forever, it was pretty clear when Steam sales started. It happened on mobile where charging for a game became impossible and it's clearly happening to console games as well. It happened to indie games. In the end there is no magic and you get what you paid for, when fans stop putting as much money in the games because they know if they just wait they pay as little as nothing instead of $60 or $70, then those games will stop being funded. Gamepass isn't the only way this is being done, it's just one of the ways.

Do you honestly think that sales of games would spike it they were always priced at 70$? Do you think if you applied Nintendo's strategy to, say, Ubisoft they would have been doing better or that Ubisoft doesn't put out games with the quality of Nintendo games?
It weird that all of these things hurt the sales of games (GP, Steam sales, Mobile, etc.), yet sales revenues are at the highest they've ever been, even comparing with the market before all of this existed...

 

[nominedomine]

The 'bad game' effect

Potato-potato.

Do you honestly think that sales of games would spike it they were always priced at 70$? Do you think if you applied Nintendo's strategy to, say, Ubisoft they would have been doing better or that Ubisoft doesn't put out games with the quality of Nintendo games?
It weird that all of these things hurt the sales of games (GP, Steam sales, Mobile, etc.), yet sales revenues are at the highest they've ever been, even comparing with the market before all of this existed...

Maybe Ubisoft would have to put some effort into their games so they would be good? I an AAA game can't sell well for $70~$40 it's probably a good indication that it isn't very good and I wouldn't even want to play if for free.

People have limited time, keep giving them games for peanuts (specially if they are actually good games) and even people that were once willing to pay good money for their games will change their behavior. The mobile market is the perfect example of this, that's the final destination of this trend of devaluing games.

Maybe I'm wrong, but so is Nintendo then.

 

[SomeGit]

Maybe Ubisoft would have to put some effort into their games so they would be good?

Ubisoft already has massive budgets for their games, what do you mean by "some effort"? Do you honestly think they are holding back talent, just because the price tag goes down?

People have limited time, keep giving them games for peanuts (specially if they are actually good games) and even people that were once willing to pay good money for their games will change their behavior. The mobile market is the perfect example of this, that's the final destination of this trend of devaluing games.

They give them games for peanuts because it's the way they have of selling the game. Because otherwise if they keep them at 70$ forever they'll see less revenue.

Maybe I'm wrong, but so is Nintendo then.

Maybe if Nintendo hadn't licensed Pokemon, Mario, AC to F2P mobile games, their newest games wouldn't have bombed. Oh wait they hit sales records, how about that.

 

[nominedomine]

Ubisoft already has massive budgets for their games, what do you mean by "some effort"? Do you honestly think they are holding back talent, just because the price tag goes down?

By some effort I mean effort towards making a good game, not the terrible stuff they've been putting out that look like it was made by AI given how uninspiring and by the books they are. This has been going on for decades with them already with most of their games, no amount of manpower is going to make up for fundamentally poor game design and vision.

I don't want to single out Ubisoft, most publishers are becoming like that. EA is now giving their some of their big games away for FREE little more than 6 months after release.

 

[SomeGit]

By some effort I mean effort towards making a good game, not the terrible stuff they've been putting out that look like it was made by AI given how uninspiring and by the books they are. This has been going on for decades with them already with most of their games, no amount of manpower is going to make up for fundamentally poor game design and vision.

And that would change if they kept the game at 70$? I guess discount warps their thinking...

I don't want to single out Ubisoft, most publishers are becoming like that. EA is now giving their some of their big games away for FREE little more than 6 months after release.

EA Play isn't free, and most of those "free games" still sell. I swear if you say BF2042 didn't sell because of the expectation of hitting EA Play I'll scream.

 

[nominedomine]

And that would change if they kept the game at 70$?

If they had no way into tricking people into playing their mediocre games because they are cheap they would have to make good games or go out of business. We keep seeing publishers dumping their floped games into subscription services to see if they can get some of the money back or selling it for ridiculously low amounts.

Paying a few dollars for AAA games is just not going to work in the end. The more capable studios able to release products that are actually worth $60 will have the market all for themselves.

 

[nominedomine]

And that would change if they kept the game at 70$? I guess discount warps their thinking...



EA Play isn't free, and most of those "free games" still sell. I swear if you say BF2042 didn't sell because of the expectation of hitting EA Play I'll scream.

I got Madden 22 last month on prime, pretty much free, because if you were not a Prime subscriber already you could just get a trial and get it.

Not the first time something like this happens and $5 is the most you have to pay if you are willing to wait an year to play an EA game. That's why they hardly make single player games anymore.

Would you pay $60 for God of War: Ragnarok or BoTW2 if you knew you would be able to play it for $5 one year later? I wouldn't. Even if my expectation is that those games are great, I have plenty to play and I rather keep that money if that is how it's going to be.

 

[SomeGit]

I got Madden 22 last month on prime, pretty much free. Because if you were not a Prime subscriber already you could just get a trial and get it.

Not the first time something like this happens.

You got Madden after the NFL season ended? Oh what a deal. I guess Madden 23 won't sell now.

If they had no way into tricking people into playing their mediocre games because they are cheap they would have to make good games or go out of business. We keep seeing publishers dumping their floped games into subscription services to see if they can get some of the money back or selling it for ridiculously low amounts.

Paying a few dollars for AAA games is just not going to work in the end. The more capable studios able to release products that are actually worth $60 will have the market all for themselves.

Yeah, I agree, publishers going down left and right because they can't sell at 70$ is good for the industry.

 

[Riky]

Microsoft is not stepping foot into BGS office and telling them how to make games. If theres one thing im certain of its that Todd Howard is captain of that ship and Todd Howard only

So much so they had to apologise that Starfield had become Xbox exclusive, saying that it wasn't up to them

 

[PendekarRajawali]

What is Outriders?
Binging it right now.

 

[Digfox]

Shame, as I think the genre needs this sort of non-GaaS looter, like Borderlands too. I hope they have some success with the upcoming Worldslayer expansion. I generally loathe the majority of MTX and Live Service BS so I am glad this game exists. Although I may be part of the problem because after really enjoying the beta, I played the game on Game Pass and only got around to buying it very recently in a sale.

My gut feeling with Game Pass is that it is great for Microsoft's revenue streams and indie games, but doesn't work for bigger publishers releases.

 

[SomeGit]

Would I pay $60 for God of War: Ragnarok if I knew I would be able to play it for $5 one year later? I wouldn't.

You could very easily get GoW 2018 for 9,99 in 2019, you'd likely be able to get Ragnarok for at most 19,99 in 2023.
I guess Ragnarok is not going to sell now. RIP Sony.

 

[nominedomine]

You could very easily get GoW 2018 for 9,99 in 2019, you'd likely be able to get Ragnarok for at most 19,99 in 2023.

I noticed that, I don't know if it got to $9,99 here where I live but it got really cheap. To me that seemed very weird and serves as an incentive to people paying attention to not pay 6x the price of something just because of FOMO.

BoTW (and most Nintendo games) is still full price in my country, at least the physicals version and digital versions get very moderate discounts. As I've mentioned, Nintendo understands this better than other publishers.

Based on past history. If you want to play a Sony game(no matter how popular or well received) you can pay $70 or wait one year to get it for $20 or something like that. If you want to play a Nintendo game you can pay $60 or you can wait one year to get a $10 discount. I know which model is more appealing to me. When publisher pretty much guarantee the game will cost at most $5 or $15 one year later the problem get much worse.

What I'm saying applies mostly to traditional single player games, multiplayer/GaaS games work really well in a subscription service, F2P or in a cheap to play model. That's why so many publisher don't have the confidence to invest in AAA single player game anymore.

If every Sony game gets put into PS+, lets say one year later I'll never buy one of their games again, I'll just get like 2 months of PS+ every year at most. The more publishers do this the easier it becomes to abuse the subscription service to play single player games for next to nothing and the less likely those game are to be made.

 

[SomeGit]

I noticed that, don't know if it got to $9,99 here where I live but it got really cheap. To me that seemed very weird and serves as an incentive to people paying attention to not pay 6x the price of something just because of FOMO.

BoTW (and most Nintendo games) is still full price in my country, at least the physicals version and digital versions get very moderate discounts. As I've mentioned, Nintendo understands this better than other publishers.

Based on past history. If you want a Sony (no matter how popular or well received) you can pay $70 or wait one year to get it for $20 or something like that. If you want to play a Nintendo game you can pay $60 or you can wait one year to get a $10 discount. I know which model is more appealing to me.

What I'm saying applies mostly to traditional single player games, multiplayer/GaaS games work really well in a subscription service, F2P or cheap to play. That's why so many publisher don't have the confidence to invest in AAA single player game anymore.

Don't use Nintendo as an argument, no publisher has their position in the industry the only other analogue I can think of is Apple or Tesla.
That has nothing to do with discounts, when their games aren't selling they also go down fast, just look Pikmin 3, Starfox Zero, etc.

Nintendo is the only publisher I know that has a game (Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver) that sold for more than 10 million copies after the year 2005, that goes for more than 100$ used.
No publisher in the world has their rabid fanbase.

 

[nominedomine]

Don't use Nintendo as an argument, no publisher has their position in the industry the only other analogue I can think of is Apple.
That has nothing to do with discounts, when their games aren't selling they also go down fast, just look Pikmin 3, Starfox Zero, etc.

Nintendo is the only publisher I know that has a game (Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver) that sold for more than 10 million copies after the year 2005, that goes for more than 100$ used.
No publisher in the world has their rabid fanbase.

I can't use the only publisher that does what I'm saying as an example because they are massively successful? Hum, seems like your are just proving my point.

Xbox and Sony fanbases seem pretty rabid to me.

 

[GymWolf]

Nah it was great fun tbh.

The only thing that fucking sucked was the endgame.

And i think the new dlc is supposed to fix that?

Shame i can’t play this on the steamdeck

They already fixed the timed shit with the first big patch, the dlc adds content.

 

[SomeGit]

I can't use the only publisher that does what I'm saying as an example because they are massively successful? Hum, seems like your are just proving my point.

You shouldn't because you don't understand why they don't discount Ultimate and BOTW.

BOTW is still at full retail, but all Wii U and 3DS Zelda games were heavily discounted.
Smash Ultimate is still at full retails, but Smash Wii U and 3DS were.

So by your logic, they wouldn't sell as well because the "expectation" was that they would also be, right?

I'm not proving your point, I'm pointing out specifically why they are the exception and it goes way beyond "they don't discount games".
If you applied their business model to the rest of the industry, things would not get better. No company in the industry has the rabid fanbase that Nintendo has.

 

[lyan]

More reason for Square Enix to sell
Their games are flopping left and right from Babylon Falls to this not making money to losing 200M on Marvel games
Seem Square only has Final Fantasy making profit wile everything else is flopping perfect time to sell

More than half of their money comes from mobile gachas nowadays which gaming forums usually pretend don't exist

 

[nominedomine]

You shouldn't because you don't understand why they don't discount Ultimate and BOTW.

BOTW is still at full retail, but all Wii U and 3DS Zelda games were heavily discounted.
Smash Ultimate is still at full retails, but Smash Wii U and 3DS were.

So by your logic, they wouldn't sell as well because the "expectation" was that they would also be, right?

I'm not proving your point, I'm pointing out specifically why they are the exception and it goes way beyond "they don't discount games".
If you applied their business model to the rest of the industry, things would not get better. No company in the industry has the rabid fanbase that Nintendo has.

Good for Nintendo then, they get to keep the most profitable and sustainable model all to themselves.

The model of $60/$70 on release then free or cheap one year later is terrible and will be the death of AAA single player games. Things couldn't be any more clear.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Good for Nintendo then, they get to keep the most profitable and sustainable model all to themselves.

You make it sound like Sony has a choice and could just copy Nintendo. If Sony could charge full price for their games for several years, they would. They just can't though.

 

[SomeGit]

Good for Nintendo then, they get to keep the most profitable and sustainable model all to themselves.

Maybe Sony should start selling outdated tablet for 300$ too.

 

[nominedomine]

Maybe Sony should start selling outdated tablet for 300$ too.

Seems to be working well for Nintendo.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Weird I thought plenty were playing this when it came out or maybe I was looking at the numbers wrong.

 

[Craig of War]

More than half of their money comes from mobile gachas nowadays which gaming forums usually pretend don't exist

You right but looking at their mobile games i ain't never touching any of them lol
& Sony wants to invest more in mobile so yeah buying Square is what they need

List of Square Enix mobile games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lyan]

You right but looking at their mobile games i ain't never touching any of them lol
& Sony wants to invest more in mobile so yeah buying Square is what they need

List of Square Enix mobile games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Me neither lol (not after Star Ocean's service ended which was a great action game)

 

[adamsapple]

Why is that bad now when people were doing the opposite before? Saying that Outriders is a huge success even on other platforms because of gamepass.

Just look at the other thread where people thought there was positive sales and then spinning that into "the gamepass effect" . People shitposting with "gamepass effect" now are just poking fun at those people's past posts of turning steam sales into "the gamepass effect" when sales weren't even that great:

Why ?

Because in other examples it's either official data or the developers/publishers of the games themselves talking about there being a positive effect from the game coming to gamepass.


Example:

Guardians of the Galaxy developers say the game is now “finding its audience”, especially on Xbox Game Pass, following a slow start

This is the developers of the game saying this, not a forum user.

-

Example 2:

#SCARLETNEXUS has reached 2 million players worldwide, including loyal fans on Xbox and PC Game Pass.

Again, this is the official communication channel of the developer/publisher thanking Game Pass, not a forum user.

-

Example 3:

“It surprised me. Being on Xbox Game Pass means that you basically have constant featuring on Xbox. Your game is on the dashboard all the time... People are seeing our game every day. And because of that, during launch month, our Xbox sales — we didn't do any discounts on it or anything — quadrupled, and have now settled to about three times as much as before. It's essentially an advert; a straight-up advert.”

This is Mike Rose, developer of the indie game Descenders praising Game Pass. Not a forum user.

-

I can go on and on but I think this should be enough.


Neither Square nor People can Fly have said anything negative about game pass having an impact on the targets here, it's just a zany first post of the topic.

If you can find me where Square Enix or People can Fly call out Game Pass as a sales negative, then we'll talk.

Otherwise there's nothing to compare here.

 

[yazenov]

More reasons for Sony to buy SE and manage their Ips.

Imagine a story driven 3rd person Outriders Sony style game instead of the current game

 

[SomeGit]

Seems to be working well for Nintendo.

Yeah guess what would happen if Sony did the same.
The best part is that you don't even need to imagine, just see what happened 10 years ago.

 

[nominedomine]

Yeah guess what would happen if Sony did the same.
The best part is that you don't even need to imagine, just see what happened 10 years ago.

What happened 10 years ago? The PS Vita? I honestly don't know what you are talking about. You speak as if Nintendo didn't had some massive hardware flops in their hands as well.

 

[SomeGit]

You speak as if Nintendo didn't had some massive hardware flops in their hands as well.

Maybe the expectation of discounts was there for the Wii U. Or people were waiting for the Wii U to hit GamePass.