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[Tweaktown] Outriders didn't turn profit as of December 31st 2021

Maybe if Nintendo hadn't licensed Pokemon, Mario, AC to F2P mobile games, their newest games wouldn't have bombed. Oh wait they hit sales records, how about that.

Brilliant point, not surprised that he ignored it.

Even beyond the rabid fan base, comparing to Nintendo is silly because the situation is night and day different. Outriders doesn’t even exist on Switch. Most big third party games don’t. Which makes it easier for Nintendo to keep their games full price. Sony has to lower their game prices to compete with third party games. Nintendo essentially doesn’t.
 

Three

Member
Why ?

Because in other examples it's either official data or the developers/publishers of the games themselves talking about there being a positive effect from the game coming to gamepass.


Example:

Guardians of the Galaxy developers say the game is now “finding its audience”, especially on Xbox Game Pass, following a slow start

This is the developers of the game saying this, not a forum user.

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Example 2:

#SCARLETNEXUS has reached 2 million players worldwide, including loyal fans on Xbox and PC Game Pass.

Again, this is the official communication channel of the developer/publisher thanking Game Pass, not a forum user.

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Example 3:

“It surprised me. Being on Xbox Game Pass means that you basically have constant featuring on Xbox. Your game is on the dashboard all the time... People are seeing our game every day. And because of that, during launch month, our Xbox sales — we didn't do any discounts on it or anything — quadrupled, and have now settled to about three times as much as before. It's essentially an advert; a straight-up advert.”

This is Mike Rose, developer of the indie game Descenders praising Game Pass. Not a forum user.

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I can go on and on but I think this should be enough.


Neither Square nor People can Fly have said anything negative about game pass having an impact on the targets here, it's just a zany first post of the topic.

If you can find me where Square Enix or People can Fly call out Game Pass as a sales negative, then we'll talk.

Otherwise there's nothing to compare here.
Except you missed the point. I'm not here trying to debate whether it's good for indies or "finding an audience".

I'm saying Forum users always tried to paint gamepass as a positive sales driver for this game with "the gamepass effect/power"


Look at the gamepass mentions. Attributing steam sales to gamepass. Why should that be OK but as soon as you get news that sales for the game weren't commercially great "it has nothing to do with gamepass" now. Why does it only work one way? Will you be there policing the same about "the gamepass effect" when people attribute sales that have nothing to do with gamepass to gamepass?
 
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It's a retaliation to the bullshit PR people have been repeating over and over again here without any evidence to back up their claims . Its to counter balance the notion that Gamepass increases game sales.
Several devs have expressed how Gamepass increased their sales. Afaik, not a single dev has claimed the opposite. So one side has facts, while the other side has wishful thinking.
 

NickFire

Member
I thought about buying it a few times until the flood gates of games opened in first quarter this year that have preoccupied my free time. I held off each time cause I assume it will be on ps+ at some point. If I end up being right cool. If not then no big deal.
 
It's a retaliation to the bullshit PR people have been repeating over and over again here without any evidence to back up their claims . Its to counter balance the notion that Gamepass increases game sales.
If that's your perception, fine. As far as I can tell, there's very little solid evidence about subscription services, sales, how they affect each other, and any number of other variables. Instead, it's just confirmation bias all the way down.

Meanwhile, I'm really enjoying Tunic, a game I never would have bought and played on my own for a variety of reasons, so maybe I should just stay out of these business related threads. But for a gaming forum, people sure love to talk about not games here, and it makes me sad since there are just so many good games being made.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I'm saying Forum users always tried to paint gamepass as a positive sales driver for this game with "the gamepass effect/power"


Look at the gamepass mentions. Attributing steam sales to gamepass. Why should that be OK but as soon as you get news that sales for the game weren't commercially great "it has nothing to do with gamepass" now. Why does it only work one way?

The topic you've made is about the game specifically being on the top sellers on Xbox despite being on Game Pass at launch. It as no bearing on sales from other platforms, just like this topic and the game being on game pass has no bearing on the sales from other platforms.

Do you think maybe people are highlighting it there because every time a game pass thread pops up, it's the same couple of users trying to make the rest believe that game pass devalues game sales ? As in that thread, and Outriders being on the top paid lists, directly contradicts that tired trope ?

I'm just puzzled why some users are trying their hardest to spin the narrative that game pass alone is responsible for the game not meeting the publishers target on all platforms.

We have empirical data, from the topic you've posted no less, that being on game pass did not impact the game being on the top of the top paid lists around the launch days/weeks on the Xbox platforms. I have no idea how well the game did on other platforms, maybe it was a complete bomb elsewhere for all we know.
 
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yazenov

Member
If that's your perception, fine. As far as I can tell, there's very little solid evidence about subscription services, sales, how they affect each other, and any number of other variables. Instead, it's just confirmation bias all the way down.

Meanwhile, I'm really enjoying Tunic, a game I never would have bought and played on my own for a variety of reasons, so maybe I should just stay out of these business related threads. But for a gaming forum, people sure love to talk about not games here, and it makes me sad since there are just so many good games being made.

I think its Microsoft's fault for hiding the numbers and claiming that gamepass is profitable and it increases game sales without showing any numbers to back it up.

It is the cause for this back and forth arguments on both side. If they just provided facts and numbers like the other companies in their financials no body would doubt their claims. You can't dispute facts if it was presented.
 
It's a retaliation to the bullshit PR people have been repeating over and over again here without any evidence to back up their claims . Its to counter balance the notion that Gamepass increases game sales.
Years of BS PR and if you call it what it is people get defensive. The possibility that Gamepass/MS isn't the greatest thing ever that will fix everything and doesn't have any negative side effect is inconceivable to some.

It's just common sense anyway, you make your product cheaply accessible and that devalues the product, resulting in people being less interested in buying it no matter where for more than the new perceived value. This simple statement would be true to anything else.

You can simply say anything negative about it without being questioned to death (likely reported), getting into discussions with people that are not actually interested in discussing, etc.

I'm yet to see a single success story for a game that sold more on Gamepass than it's previous entry or something like that. Yet questioning the absurd narrative that MS tried to push without any numbers to back it up is seen and me being unreasonable.

We even have success stories on PS+ with things like Fallguys or Rocket League, that later ended up selling a lot of copies, it's not like it's completely impossible, I just don't know of it happening to Gamepass. I don't deny the value of the service I deny the fact that it is this runaway success and the numbers are in no way impressive.

One of the bigger problems with the idea of game subscription is that it drags the single player game market down in an attempt to compete with GaaS F2P games, something that it will never be able to do in the first place. How many times have we've seen people acting like charging for games is "anti-consumer", I've seen it many times or how no one can't compete with Gamepass without including all their games in the service. Gamepass is not compatible with how most people play games and that is why the adoption is so slow despite the "value" provided and how aggressively MS is trying to push it. It is ultimately changing the landscape so that publishers get even more afraid for non GaaS AAA games, Sony already show signs of going in the same direction.
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
It was literally a game no one asked for or wanted.

- gass
- more sci-fi fantasy
- bad character designs
- bad player character choices
- dull gameplay
- dull environments
- right after Athem just failed for most of the same reasons.
 
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yazenov

Member
Several devs have expressed how Gamepass increased their sales. Afaik, not a single dev has claimed the opposite. So one side has facts, while the other side has wishful thinking.
Then why aren't there more AAA big games on Gamepass day one? If it was so profitable then why isn't Elden Ring on Gamepass?

Im sure MS is trying to convince all the other publishers to put their games on Gamepass. Good luck with that.
 
Years of BS PR and if you call it what it is people get defensive. The possibility that Gamepass/MS isn't the greatest thing ever that will fix everything and doesn't have any negative side effect is inconceivable to some.

It's just common sense anyway, you make your product cheaply accessible and that devalues the product, resulting in people being less interested in buying it no matter where for more than the new perceived value. This simple statement would be true to anything else.

You can simply say anything negative about it without being questioned to death (likely reported), getting into discussions with people that are not actually interested in discussing, etc.

I'm yet to see a single success story for a game that sold more on Gamepass than it's previous entry or something like that. Yet questioning the absurd narrative that MS tried to push without any numbers to back it up is seen and me being unreasonable.

We even have success stories on PS+ with things like Fallguys or Rocket League, that later ended up selling a lot of copies, it's not like it's completely impossible, I just don't know of it happening to Gamepass. I don't deny the value of the service I deny the fact that it is this runaway success and the numbers are in no way impressive.

One of the bigger problems with the idea of game subscription is that it drags the single player game market down in an attempt to compete with GaaS F2P games, something that it will never be able to do in the first place.

You can play the victim all you want but all people asked for is some logic behind ThE gAmEPAsS eFfEcT and the best you could do is essentially “well hey Nintendo can sell Zelda for $60 years after release so no wonder this game didn’t make a profit!”

Basically nonsense. If you don’t want to get called out for console warrior nonsense, don’t post console warrior nonsense 🤷‍♂️
 
You can play the victim all you want but all people asked for is some logic behind ThE gAmEPAsS eFfEcT and the best you could do is essentially “well hey Nintendo can sell Zelda for $60 years after release so no wonder this game didn’t make a profit!”

Basically nonsense. If you don’t want to get called out for console warrior nonsense, don’t post console warrior nonsense 🤷‍♂️
The Gamepass Effect is how we keep seeing flopped games show up in the service, it's a place for publisher to dumb games they are unsure about before release and guarantee they at least get some money for it or to get money from MS for a game that has already flopped outside of it.

SE already did this multiple times already with their games. Once a publisher gets into this, people are even more likely to not buy their future games since they expect to see it on Gamepass any day now. It even happened to Control to the point the dev had to come out publicly to say it wasn't entering Gamepass (but it actually did end up there).
 
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Looks like you're moving goal posts. Apparently, if not literally all games are on Gamepass, that means Gamepass is not a viable business model. Whatever lets you sleep at night.
If it makes games sell more then why wouldn't anyone want their games there? Why even put it behind a subscription? Why aren't MS games beating the sales of past entries of the respective franchises? You guys could just accept that that isn't something that is happening and we could all move on.
 
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If it makes games sell more then why wouldn't anyone want their games there? Why aren't MS games beating the sales of past entries of the respective franchises? You guys could just accept that that isn't something that is happening and we could all move on.
Again, we have several devs on record saying it happened to them. We have none on record saying that they earned less money due to Gamepass.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Well luckily for them they dont have to put their games on Gamepass. Microsoft doesnt kidnap the families of the devleopers and puts a gun against their head until the devs sign on the dotted line.

The problem is that its a loss-mitigation option for publishers. If the focus group and other marketing forecasts don't seem suggestive of a big hit in the making, they now have the opportunity to cut their potential losses by clawing back a predictable amount of the sunken cost in a single deal.

Its good for them but death for the developer who's reliant upon royalties in the long term.

You need to understand development and publishing are two separate businesses. What's good for one isn't necessarily so for the other. A publisher is akin to a bank, even if you go bankrupt the institution will have procedures in place so it can endure.
 

Three

Member
The topic you've made is about the game specifically being on the top sellers on Xbox despite being on Game Pass at launch. It as no bearing on sales from other platforms, just like this topic and the game being on game pass has no bearing on the sales from other platforms.
I didn't make the topic. People were saying it boosts sales on other platforms too. I posted quotes from them already.

We have empirical data, from the topic you've posted no less, that being on game pass did not impact the game being on the top of the top paid lists around the launch days/weeks on the Xbox platforms. I have no idea how well the game did on other platforms, maybe it was a complete bomb elsewhere for all we know.


while at the same time using gamepass as an excuse as to why it only got 17% of sales on xbox. It didn't sell a lot on xbox either.

Anyway we're just talking past eachother here but i just don't see why you and a bunch of others can spin fake hype about completely obfuscated sales data and attribute it to gamepass with literally no numbers. Yet when actual legal data becomes public that it hasn't sold well you want people to stop talking about gamepass.
 
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Again, we have several devs on record saying it happened to them. We have none on record saying that they earned less money due to Gamepass.
Who? Some unknown dev that no one heard about before? If you pay attention I specifically mention AAA games in my posts multiple times. Yes, some indie game that wouldn't stand out in the sea of indie games might see more sales (at the cost of people getting even more used to not buying indie games). But honestly even that doesn't seem to be happening a lot, where are the success stories?

Meanwhile all the power gets transferred to the platform holder as it gets harder for smaller titles to make any money outside of subs.
 
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SomeGit

Member
Why aren't MS games beating the sales of past entries of the respective franchises? You guys could just accept that that isn't something that is happening and we could all move on.

What MS games are behind the sales of respective franchises before gamepass?

We obviously can't use Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5, because those are too new to measure the full lifetime sales.
The best example would be something like Gears 5 vs 4 or FH4 vs FH3, did those sold less? I know Gears 5 sold more.
 
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yazenov

Member
Again, we have several devs on record saying it happened to them. We have none on record saying that they earned less money due to Gamepass.

Ok but the question is why aren't many other publishers putting their games on Gamepass in droves since its a goldmine? Surely they are incompetent because they are losing on the potential Gamepass money? Looks like they need the receipts which MS cant provide.
 
What MS games are behind the sales of respective franchises before gamepass?

We obviously can't use Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5, because those are too new to measure the full lifetime sales.
The best example would be something like Gears 5 vs 4 or FH4 vs FH3, did those sold less?
How would I know they don't provide numbers? Probably they would've said it did otherwise no?

As for Halo Infinite I can assure you it didn't sell better than previous Halo games.
 
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SomeGit

Member
How would I know they don't provide numbers? Probably they would've said it did otherwise no?

As for Halo Infinite I can assure you it didn't sell better than previous Halo games. Don't know about FH5 since FH4 was already released on Gamepass.

How can you assure me of that then?
 
How can you assure me of that then?
Something called living in reality? Were you alive when previous Halo games released? Halo Infinity clearly didn't have even a fraction of the impact and that is despite being F2P. There is just no way it sold more.
 
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If they did they would have shouted from the rooftops but we know that their silence suggest otherwise.
They recently started to shout out from the rooftops that they beat the PlayStation 5 (and made sure to ignore the Switch) in select countries in Europe while the PS5 was having shortages yet people think they would be quiet about breaking sales records while at the same time putting all their weight behind a subscription model.

Now, I'm the one who needs to provide the numbers to prove that their bold claims and spins are just PR not them...

I doubt the same people would believe Sony if they were making the same wild claims about their games without providing solid number. When Sony does things like that it's usually a good indication that the game in question is probably underperforming.
 
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Kagero

Member
Terrible game! The only other game I can think of that’s more half baked is that stupid squad based Aliens shooter. Incidentally, both are a same style shooter.
 

Three

Member
The previous would be Halo 5, did Infinite sell worse than 5 for the same timespan? How can you assure me of that?
In game sales yes. In microtransactions probably not (it's f2p and on other platforms) .
 
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You are the one that said "I can assure" you, what are you one about?
I can assure you Halo Infinite sold less than previous Halo games, it's self evident. But you are free to delude yourself, this is clearly getting nowhere. Good day again, have a nice life.
 
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SomeGit

Member
I can assure you Halo Infinite sold less than previous Halo games, it's self evident. But you are free to delude yourself. Good day again, have a nice life.

Any source for that "self evident" fact that Infinite sold less on the same timespan than 5?
Or are you just packing your tail and leaving again?
 
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I think they're starting to carry less xbox games at retailers, so I'd say there is definitely some "gamepass effect". The PS5/4 section at Target near me is twice the size as the Series/One section.
 

Three

Member
I better start seeing some receipts then.
Halo Infinite literally did not exist in sales charts on launch month in MS's second largest market. It's fairly obvious.

otherwise you know very well that I can't provide you public sales figures you'd be willing to accept but the fact that they go out of their way to hide them should tell you enough.

This is way off topic anyway. Data points to gamepass reducing sales of AAA games. increasing exposure for indies or small games, who have no marketing, by being part of "the games this month", and being a good place for loss-mitigation or additional revenue for publishers for old games. Why people are hung up accepting the first fact that it reduces sales of AAA games though I don't know. People pointing to SE saying GotG "found an audience" as some kind of gamepass success story when we know commercially the game lost money and only got $5M to be on gamepass, because SE is trying to recoup losses at the moment.
 

SomeGit

Member
Halo Infinite literally did not exist in sales charts on launch month in MS's second largest market. It's fairly obvious.

otherwise you know very well that I can't provide you public sales figures you'd be willing to accept but the fact that they go out of their way to hide them should tell you enough.
On UK, I assume? Yeah it did, it was at 4th. 3rd on combine digital and retail behind Vanguard and FIFA.
5 was already the lowest selling Halo in the UK, so it's not that hard to believe that Infinite sales are inline with 5.
 
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Three

Member
I think they're starting to carry less xbox games at retailers, so I'd say there is definitely some "gamepass effect". The PS5/4 section at Target near me is twice the size as the Series/One section.
That has more to do with the fact that MS are selling Series S consoles so little to no customers come back to buy games from retailers.
 

NickFire

Member
The topic you've made is about the game specifically being on the top sellers on Xbox despite being on Game Pass at launch. It as no bearing on sales from other platforms, just like this topic and the game being on game pass has no bearing on the sales from other platforms.
When pubs talk about lifetime sales I get the impression they include via subscriptions (across the board). My impression could be wrong. Even if right that doesn’t mean MS counts those downloads as sales either. As far as I know We really don’t know if they count GP downloads in top sellers list.
 
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