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[Topher]

No, I won't go back and provide post numbers. You're the one that came into this conversation very late and now you're asking me to do extra work for a late arriver? It's not going to happen.

But let me ask you, do you think there is a significant percentage of people that subscribe to game pass for a month, play the game they're interested in, and then cancel?

That's what Haggard does and he said that could not be good for devs that he does that. I agreed with that assessment, but told him that fortunately it's just a small amount of people that do that. And Microsoft expects that and builds that into their margins. Most people stay subscribed for more than one month to play a specific game.

That's because those posts do not exist. I went through all your posts again. Only thing that is remotely what you are claiming to have posted is below. If you want to pretend you've documented monthly retention in gaming with this then you are just wasting everyone's time.

We can make an educated guess though based on other subscription services that do provide retention numbers though (Netflix, Spotify, Amazon Prime, Birchbox, etc). I don't think Sony provides retention numbers for PS Plus but we know that total subscribers have been increasing, with only this year showing a decrease. Even if you look at a service with a lower retention (I think Paramount might have 60% retention over 6 months) that is still as majority continuing to subscribe.

Haggard subscribes for a month when there is a game he wants to play. He said this cannot be good for developers, but when I pointed out that he's right it's not, but fortunately he is in the small minority he got very defensive. He didn't want to hear that he was in the minority, even though it's true. And that's where we're at.


I don't doubt that you do. Same as Haggard . I know people like you two exist, but you are in the very small minority. MS expects there to be a small amount of people like you. It's built into their margins.

Don't know about any numbers - but the funnel isn't leaking out the bottom since - using GP - membership numbers are stable to increasing not contracting. One should presume the retention is pretty good as a result.

Last we heard GP membership was 25 million as of January this year. I wouldn't be surprised if that number decreased this year due to the lack of first party releases from Microsoft, but there is no way to know that. Just speculation either way.

 

[TheGodfather07]

Best for Sony I guess.

Of course. Every company is the same. They don't owe you Jack shit. Your the one who decides if you want to buy their products. If you don't like it , you have other options. That's what competition is for.

 

[Lognor]

Pretending it isn`t wouldn`t be honest and..

Nonsense is actually the nicest description for anything you`ve regurgitated in this thread so far

It's not nonsense. You getting butt hurt that I told you that you were in the minority is nonsense. But it's true.

That's because those posts do not exist. I went through all your posts again. Only thing that is remotely what you are claiming to have posted is below. If you want to pretend you've documented monthly retention in gaming with this then you are just wasting everyone's time.

Last we heard GP membership was 25 million as of January this year. I wouldn't be surprised if that number decreased this year due to the lack of first party releases from Microsoft, but there is no way to know that. Just speculation either way.

Thank you for finally going through my posts. That's what you should have done before engaging so late to the conversation.

Let me ask you again, do you think a significant percentage of people subscribe for a month for a game and then unsubscribe after that month? Do you think? Don't say you don't know. I'm not asking if you know. Do you think? People that subscribe to monthly services don't do that. Even if retention was 50% that's still the minority that is unsubbing after a month. It's not that hard to understand.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Butts are hurting

 

[MacReady13]

It's not nonsense. You getting butt hurt that I told you that you were in the minority is nonsense. But it's true.

Thank you for finally going through my posts. That's what you should have done before engaging so late to the conversation.

Let me ask you again, do you think a significant percentage of people subscribe for a month for a game and then unsubscribe after that month? Do you think? Don't say you don't know. I'm not asking if you know. Do you think? People that subscribe to monthly services don't do that. Even if retention was 50% that's still the minority that is unsubbing after a month. It's not that hard to understand.

You’re cooked my man! You have no idea about actual numbers but are so deep into this (and digging in further) that you’re now lost! Give up! You can’t prove shit! I have gone back and read every single post in this here thread. You’ve proven nothing but to be a shill for Microsoft! Hilarious!!!

 

[Lognor]

You’re cooked my man! You have no idea about actual numbers but are so deep into this (and digging in further) that you’re now lost! Give up! You can’t prove shit! I have gone back and read every single post in this here thread. You’ve proven nothing but to be a shill for Microsoft! Hilarious!!!

Let's pivot. Do you think a significant percentage of people subscribe to game pass for a month to play a game and then cancel after one month? No? Then why are we arguing?

 

[Haggard]

It's not nonsense. You getting butt hurt that I told you that you were in the minority is nonsense. But it's true.

You don't get to say xy is a fact with no facts available. Simple as that.
I mean it should be simple, but you seem to have issues understanding even the simplest things.
I don't care if I'm in the 1% or the 99% that's something even someone as thick as you should've understood by now. You might be right, you might be wrong, that doesn't even matter here.

 

[Topher]

Thank you for finally going through my posts. That's what you should have done before engaging so late to the conversation.

No, you shouldn't have lied about providing "data" that you knew all along that you didn't have. I had to go through your posts a second time to confirm you were lying.

Let me ask you again, do you think a significant percentage of people subscribe for a month for a game and then unsubscribe after that month? Do you think? Don't say you don't know. I'm not asking if you know. Do you think? People that subscribe to monthly services don't do that. Even if retention was 50% that's still the minority that is unsubbing after a month. It's not that hard to understand.

I would speculate that the majority subscribe for a longer term and not just month to month. Like I said above, I wasn't necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your assertion, just this claim that there was data backing it up.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Deja vu, the thread.

Love it or loathe it, Gamepass should be recognised as a massive part of gaming today. It’s certainly changed my habits, and I’ve been a gamer all my life, owning pretty much every console (okay, I skipped the Wii U) and rarely skipping a big release.

I’ve never played more games, for as much time, as since Gamepass. This weekend I’ll be playing Deathloop, Tinykin, that space salvage game I can’t remember the name of and my wife (very much a non-gamer) will inevitably be playing Dreamlight Valley. All games neither of us would have ever thought to buy at full price.

As for Sony’s stance, I’m never buying a full price game again, so whatever they believe they’ve not convinced me. I’ll wait for inclusion on PS+ or a below $20 sale for all of their games in future. Because I don’t believe in $70.

Once/if MS gets their AAA machine rolling, Sony has a big problem on its hands if it remains stuck in the past.

This man said I won't buy games anymore and Sony is doing it wrong by wanting people to buy games

 

[Lognor]

You don't get to say xy is a fact with no facts available. Simple as that.
I mean it should be simple, but you seem to have issues understanding even the simplest things.
I don't care if I'm in the 1% or the 99% that's something even someone as thick as you should've understood by now. You might be right, you might be wrong, that doesn't even matter here.

I provided you facts... about other subscription services. I don't even know why you're continuing to argue. You've already said you realize most people do not sub for a month for a game, like you. Now you're moving the goal posts. That's the only point I was making.

No, you shouldn't have lied about providing "data" that you knew all along that you didn't have. I had to go through your posts a second time to confirm you were lying.



I would speculate that the majority subscribe for a longer term and not just month to month. Like I said above, I wasn't necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your assertion, just this claim that there was data backing it up.

Lying? Lol. No. I provided retention numbers for other subscription services. Are you suggesting game pass is radically different from those, in terms of retention numbers?

We're on the same page too. Most stay subbed.

 

[Haggard]

I provided you facts... about other subscription services.

Exactly. No GP data available, so no stating anything as fact. Is that so hard to understand....
You are running on hot air.

 

[Topher]

Lying? Lol. No. I provided retention numbers for other subscription services.

 

[Lognor]

Exactly. None.
You are running on hot air.

Why are you even still arguing? Lol. You already admitted you're likely in the small minority.

Topher better than nothing! Which is what Haggard provided... even though he admits he's in the minority. Lol

 

[Haggard]

Why are you even still arguing? Lol. You already admitted you're likely in the small minority

I did no such thing, but might very well be that way.
However you don't get to state facts with nothing but your dick in your hand to show for.

 

[Topher]

Time to follow the mod's advice.

 

[Lognor]

I did no such thing, but might very well be that way.
However you don't get to state facts with nothing but your dick in your hand to show for.

It wasn't nothing. But whatever. Go ahead and ignore me. You provided nothing and you're not going to

 

[Haggard]

It wasn't nothing. But whatever. Go ahead and ignore me. You provided nothing and you're not going to

Why would I provide anything.... there is zero official data and I've never argued about the actual situation....

And since there is no data you have provided exactly nothing either, no matter what you try to sell your crap for.
You don't get to state facts without having facts.
Prior to this thread I thought people who are too stupid to differentiate between feelings and facts would usually be to stupid to use an internet board, too, but well you never stop learning I guess....

 

[Lognor]

Why would I provide anything.... there is zero official data and I've never argued about the actual situation....

And since there is no data you have provided exactly nothing either, no matter what you try to sell your crap for.
You don't get to state facts without having facts.
Prior to this thread I thought people who are too stupid to differentiate between feelings and facts would usually be to stupid to use an internet board, too, but well you never stop learning I guess....

Why are you still arguing? We've both agreed that your behavior is in the minority. You're getting a good deal. Long term subscribers are getting a good deal. Everyone wins!

 

[C2brixx]

Last we heard GP membership was 25 million as of January this year. I wouldn't be surprised if that number decreased this year due to the lack of first party releases from Microsoft, but there is no way to know that. Just speculation either way.

I doubt most people are making their Gamepass subscription decisions based on wether new monthly game releases are first party are not. Matter of fact most want more AA/AAA 3rd party games to come to the service.

 

[Haggard]

Why are you still arguing?

Why do you still pretend to have facts?
This has never been about being right or not....I absolutely utterly don't care about the actual situation with GP.
Is it so hard to just accept that you just have an opinion, or at best an educated guess, like everyone else... And not facts as you like to pretend.

 

[Secret of Evolution]

As someone who bought the premium tier for 3 years via the PS now deal, I aint buying any first party titles till my sub is up. I expect the big ones to come to the service maybe 6 months to a year after release which is fine by me. There are plenty of games I need to play yet in my backlog.

 

[akimbo009]

I doubt most people are making their Gamepass subscription decisions based on wether new monthly game releases are first party are not. Matter of fact most want more AA/AAA 3rd party games to come to the service.

This. It's ideal to play games I wouldn't normally have purchased or known about. Or wanted to try before I buy. Hades was a good example for me, and I suspect it is an entry point for others in a similar fashion.

 

[Topher]

Matter of fact most want more AA/AAA 3rd party games to come to the service.

How is that a "matter of fact"? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering what the basis for that statement is.

 

[Klayzer]

How is that a "matter of fact"? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering what the basis for that statement is.

Not going to lie, i read that sentiment on here constantly. In fact, a lot of subscribers aren't interested unless its on GP.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

The quality and quantity of games being added to Game Pass vs PS Plus isn't even close, and it's the reason people barely talk about PS Plus compared to Game Pass. September alone has been an amazing month for Game Pass. PS Plus does "the same thing", just much worse.

I'm gonna avoid doing a list war and just respond:

The ONLY reason people hype Gamepass is for the POTENTIAL of day one 1st party AAA games, which unfortunately in 2022 has been dry as hell. Like I said...next year will probably be a lot different but as for now it has not lived up to my expectation. I say this as a subscriber to both services.

 

[Topher]

Not going to lie, i read that sentiment on here constantly. In fact, a lot of subscribers aren't interested unless its on GP.

Nothing wrong with that. Ton of games on GP to play. Not sure I'd would apply that sentiment to the majority of subscribers overall though. I think that would be an interesting poll question for sure.

 

[akimbo009]

How is that a "matter of fact"? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering what the basis for that statement is.

I provided an example.. but there's so much content through GP outside handful of must-haves there's plenty of gaming and backlog provided I'm usually busy burning that down. So plenty of reason to keep it for the other great games outside of MS or AAA games.

 

[Topher]

I provided an example.. but there's so much content through GP outside handful of must-haves there's plenty of gaming and backlog provided I'm usually busy burning that down. So plenty of reason to keep it for the other great games outside of MS or AAA games.

That's fine, but I don't think Hades is an example of a game most GP subscribers want more than first party.

 

[akimbo009]

That's fine, but I don't think Hades is an example of a game GP subscribers want more than first party.

I dunno why not? Given the PC gaming market doesn't have 1st party publishers to thrive I think folks have quite a diverse set of tastes that go well beyond just 1st party. I think except for Nintendo platforms, majority of sales and game time is on 3rd party games so pretty sure there's an appetite there that keeps people engaged.

I guess we can just speculate until the cows come home, but it doesn't seem likely there's been some huge exodus considering the financial reports don't indicate that.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Not going to lie, i read that sentiment on here constantly. In fact, a lot of subscribers aren't interested unless its on GP.

Which is interesting to be because, if I as a 3rd party developer choose not to add my game to GP, just how well will it sell?
Especially if most of the people who choose Xbox do so because of GP and the idea that they will pay a monthly fee and get "free" games.
Seems to me that a big portion of people will just go say......"Will wait for GP" in hopes that MS will cut the developer a check. How does that affect overall revenue?

 

[C2brixx]

How is that a "matter of fact"? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering what the basis for that statement is.

Well "matter of fact" was probably too definitive, but it was based on what I've seen most people say they want to see come to the service. Since all 1st party games come to Gamepass the conversation to Microsoft from fans is about getting more 3rd party support in-between 1st party releases.

 

[Topher]

I dunno why not? Given the PC gaming market doesn't have 1st party publishers to thrive I think folks have quite a diverse set of tastes that go well beyond just 1st party. I think except for Nintendo platforms, majority of sales and game time is on 3rd party games so pretty sure there's an appetite there that keeps people engaged.

I guess we can just speculate until the cows come home, but it doesn't seem likely there's been some huge exodus considering the financial reports don't indicate that.

The financial reports have not said anything about this year at all. We know at the beginning of the year it was at 25 million and we haven't received any updates since. But no, I don't think there has been a "mass exodus" either.

I just don't put Hades in the same league as a game like Starfield. One is going to absolutely sell systems and subs. The other, not nearly as much.

Well "matter of fact" maybe was probably too definitive, but it was based on what I've seen most people say they want to see come to the service. Since all 1st party games come to Gamepass the conversation to Microsoft from fans is about getting more 3rd party support in-between 1st party releases.

Ah....gotcha. I'm kind of in that same boat myself. I finished TLOU Remake and needed something to play so I started playing Octopath Traveler off of Game Pass. Pleasant surprise.

 

[akimbo009]

The financial reports have not said anything about this year at all. We know at the beginning of the year it was at 25 million and we haven't received any updates since. But no, I don't think there has been a "mass exodus" either.

I just don't put Hades in the same league as a game like Starfield. One is going to absolutely sell systems and subs. The other, not nearly as much.



Ah....gotcha. I'm kind of in that same boat myself. I finished TLOU Remake and needed something to play so I started playing Octopath Traveler off of Game Pass. Pleasant surprise.

I'm saying they don't have to be system sellers, but valuable enough to subscribers to keep them sticky. It's a lot easier to shrug over $15 a month when it has compelling content like Hades - probably not buy a console for it but that's not the point.

We can infer subs are steady from revenue which continues to be stable or increase YoY.

 

[Alan Wake]

Fair enough - if it wasn't for their attempts to prevent games from ending up on Game Pass.

 

[Topher]

We can infer subs are steady from revenue which continues to be stable or increase YoY.

Agree to disagree on first vs third party, but I was wrong about GP subscriptions. MS did report growth in subscriptions the last two quarters.

Microsoft Gaming Revenue Drops 7% Year-on-Year; Hardware Revenue Down 11%

Microsoft announced its financial results for the fourth quarter of the fiscal year 2022, related to the period between April 1, and June 30.

twinfinite.net

Microsoft Gaming Revenue Grew 6% Year-on-Year; Xbox Hardware +14%, Content & Services +4%

Microsoft announced its financial results for the third quarter of fiscal year 2022, related to the period between January 1 and March 31.

twinfinite.net

 

[MikeM]

Which is interesting to be because, if I as a 3rd party developer choose not to add my game to GP, just how well will it sell?
Especially if most of the people who choose Xbox do so because of GP and the idea that they will pay a monthly fee and get "free" games.
Seems to me that a big portion of people will just go say......"Will wait for GP". So how does that affect overall revenue?

Might push more studios to sign exclusive deals with Sony. Why bother signing a deal with MS if significantly less people buy games on that box?

 

[DarkMage619]

Might push more studios to sign exclusive deals with Sony. Why bother signing a deal with MS if significantly less people buy games on that box?

Surely PlayStation + Xbox > than PlayStation alone. I can't see signing an exclusive deal for PlayStation because of the smaller install base on Xbox makes any business sense at all.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Might push more studios to sign exclusive deals with Sony. Why bother signing a deal with MS if significantly less people buy games on that box?

Maybe not exclusive deals, but I could see developers looking at how much time and money it costs to develop on Xbox, then looking at their sales potential and making decisions based on that.

 

[GHG]

Fucking finally.

 

[MacReady13]

Let's pivot. Do you think a significant percentage of people subscribe to game pass for a month to play a game and then cancel after one month? No? Then why are we arguing?

Why pivot? You think you have all the answers and data to support your theory. Let’s see it! You cannot deny that if people don’t want to keep a sub service they won’t just pay to leave it there. Many would be on a monthly plan. If they want to sub to play a game they sub. If not, then don’t spend however much it is a month to have that crap. Either way, if you stay subscribed and never use it, you’re a fool. And this is why subscription services are not the future I want for gaming (or film/tv or music or for anything)!

Edit- well I see he is banned! Oh well. I guess if you make stupid arguments with zero data and double down on it whilst making fun of people, you must pay the price.

 

[Klayzer]

Which is interesting to be because, if I as a 3rd party developer choose not to add my game to GP, just how well will it sell?
Especially if most of the people who choose Xbox do so because of GP and the idea that they will pay a monthly fee and get "free" games.
Seems to me that a big portion of people will just go say......"Will wait for GP" in hopes that MS will cut the developer a check. How does that affect overall revenue?

That's the million dollar question in my opinion. How much of a long term effect will it have on Xbox's fanbase? It's difficult to have a discussion about it here without the GP spam zealots.

Opposite opinions are met with such personal hostility. Yes we know "best deal in gaming blah, blah, blah."

Will GP have any negative effects on the industry? How about 1st party budgets? Will that change? Will the quality level stay the same? Time will tell.

 

[akimbo009]

That's the million dollar question in my opinion. How much of a long term effect will it have on Xbox's fanbase? It's difficult to have a discussion about it here without the GP spam zealots.

Opposite opinions are met with such personal hostility. Yes we know "best deal in gaming blah, blah, blah."

Will GP have any negative effects on the industry? How about 1st party budgets? Will that change? Will the quality level stay the same? Time will tell.

That's just concern trolling though.

 

[Mr Hyde]

Damn, Lognor died on the Game Pass hill. Pouring one out for another fallen warrior. Going out gangsta style.

 

[adamsapple]

Why are you still arguing? We've both agreed that your behavior is in the minority. You're getting a good deal. Long term subscribers are getting a good deal. Everyone wins!

Goodnight, sweet prince.

Agree to disagree on first vs third party, but I was wrong about GP subscriptions. MS did report growth in subscriptions the last two quarters.

Microsoft Gaming Revenue Drops 7% Year-on-Year; Hardware Revenue Down 11%

Microsoft announced its financial results for the fourth quarter of the fiscal year 2022, related to the period between April 1, and June 30.

twinfinite.net

Microsoft Gaming Revenue Grew 6% Year-on-Year; Xbox Hardware +14%, Content & Services +4%

Microsoft announced its financial results for the third quarter of fiscal year 2022, related to the period between January 1 and March 31.

twinfinite.net

Yeah, the growth there is helping out offset the loss of revenue from not having big first party games out.

Should be a nice cooperative pillar when those damn games actually do start coming out in 2023.

 

[drganon]

Rest in piss lognor, you dumb console warring bastard.

 

[Topher]

Rest in piss lognor, you dumb console warring bastard.

I was hoping for an epic suicide thread. Lognor you didn't think this through. Oh.....I guess that's just you being you.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Which is interesting to be because, if I as a 3rd party developer choose not to add my game to GP, just how well will it sell?
Especially if most of the people who choose Xbox do so because of GP and the idea that they will pay a monthly fee and get "free" games.
Seems to me that a big portion of people will just go say......"Will wait for GP" in hopes that MS will cut the developer a check. How does that affect overall revenue?

And this is my main problem with GP. I'd hate to see it start affecting 3rd party studios

 

[FalsettoVibe]

I was hoping for an epic suicide thread. Lognor you didn't think this through. Oh.....I guess that's just you being you.

What finally got him banned?

 

[drganon]

What finally got him banned?

Dude just wouldn't stop arguing. I'm pretty sure he ran out of warnings and temp bans a while ago.

 

[nocsi]

And this is my main problem with GP. I'd hate to see it start affecting 3rd party studios

The main problem with GP is probably more that it’s trying to make gaming disposable and so gamers burn money every month and come out with nothing. I’ve made comparisons with Netflix before, but that media is not anywhere comparable to whole games that go 10-100+ hours. It ends up being a feeding trough where gamers pay up and want everything to come to it. Microsoft kinda gave that false impression and it’s on them. But if you evaluate deeper, they’re just doing the same strategy they did with Azure by rug pulling everyone once people are invested in the ecosystem. So enjoy

PS Plus actually does a better job by not intersecting much with games that people would buy. So it ends up being a complementary service. Only some things have been devalued like my yakuza purchases.