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Phil Spencer: "Microsoft won’t stop selling [retail] games to promote Xbox Game Pass"

Topher

Gold Member
If you aren't a fool with money, you would realize Game Pass' insane value.

But it need not mentioned, as the 30 million speak for themselves.

Value is subjective. If someone doesn't seen the games they want to play on Game Pass or any other subscription then it isn't foolish to not subscribe. In fact, for most it is being wise to subscribe only when there are games on the sub they want to play. I did that with Watch Dogs Legion. Paid $15 for Ubisoft+ instead of paying full price. When I was done, I unsubscribed as there was nothing else I wanted to play at the moment. So folks can be agile with subs and be wise with their money at the same time.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
They are probably struggling with getting enough sells of 3rd party games that isnt on gamepass. Sony is probably eating up more and more of that cake.

MS revenue has been growing since the introduction of GP, not falling. Plus, Xbox holds its own (and in a lot of titles over performs) its sales split with PS when equalizing the difference in user base. It's normal for the console with more users to sell more copies of third-party games, LOL.
 

Sweden85

Member
MS revenue has been growing since the introduction of GP, not falling. Plus, Xbox holds its own (and in a lot of titles over performs) its sales split with PS when equalizing the difference in user base. It's normal for the console with more users to sell more copies of third-party games, LOL.
Sure, but more and more people that has the Xbox won't buy games. They want "free" games.
The split is going to increase more and more.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sure, but more and more people that has the Xbox won't buy games. They want "free" games.
The split is going to increase more and more.

Game Pass revenue is only 10 to 15% for Xbox. Phil Spencer says MS doesn't expect it rise above that.
 

feynoob

Banned
Even if GamePass exists as its own thing in their services department structurally, there's no reason to only specify GamePass on their end but then lump services like NSO & NSO+, or PS+ and PS Now, or even PS+ with PS+ Extra and Premium (considering PS+ Essentials is closer to XBL Gold model-wise than GamePass) unless it's to be intentionally misleading and rely on inconsistent metrics across different data sets in the same comparison.

There's no reason to assume the $2.9 billion figure does not include XBL Gold subscribers.
Difference is that gamepass is the culpert here, with regulators.
Even EA service is there, even though its not live service.
The outline for xbox live gold would be their current offerings, which is straight up garbage.
As for Ps+, it was lumped with new upgrade tier.
No idea why regulators used nso.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
Value is subjective. If someone doesn't seen the games they want to play on Game Pass or any other subscription then it isn't foolish to not subscribe. In fact, for most it is being wise to subscribe only when there are games on the sub they want to play. I did that with Watch Dogs Legion. Paid $15 for Ubisoft+ instead of paying full price. When I was done, I unsubscribed as there was nothing else I wanted to play at the moment. So folks can be agile with subs and be wise with their money at the same time.

It has Vampire Survivors on it right now so it's not subjective, it's superior to all things.
 
Value is subjective. If someone doesn't seen the games they want to play on Game Pass or any other subscription then it isn't foolish to not subscribe. In fact, for most it is being wise to subscribe only when there are games on the sub they want to play. I did that with Watch Dogs Legion. Paid $15 for Ubisoft+ instead of paying full price. When I was done, I unsubscribed as there was nothing else I wanted to play at the moment. So folks can be agile with subs and be wise with their money at the same time.

Value is subjective but math isn't...

If you buy just 2 games/year available on Game Pass Day 1, you are basically above the Game Pass subscription for a year....
 
Honestly the rest of your post is implying that you think they don’t sell games as well.



Game pass alone might not be enough to sustain an epic single player game, but as you mentioned it’s not the only way that game makes money - it’s made through game sales as well. If people want to play the game, then they can on gamepass and by buying it. If a game is popular, available on gamepass, and drops off top 10 sales charts, you’d expect that to mean it’s being played on gamepass.

All gamepass does is replace the massive lump sum payment from initial retail sales with ongoing monthly income from gamepass. That’s sustainable for a single player game as much as a multiplayer one.
The rest of my post does not imply that lol they offer the games for sale it's just people aren't buying them. We don't have a ton of data simply because they haven't released that many new first party games since the day one thing became their policy back in 2018 but what we do have doesn't look good as far as sales.

Gears 5 debuted at #7 and then dropped out of the NPD top 20 in its second month
Halo infinite debuted at #2 in and then went on to drop to number 18 in its second month then out of the top 20 in its third.
Flight Sim which was a PC port and didn't launch on console didn't even chart in the NPD top 20.
FH5 lasted longer than Halo of Gears 5 but it dropped out of the top 10 in its second month and out of the top 20 in its 4th.

Game pass is not sustainable for AAA single player content, they count on backend monetization and you can't really get that unless you do paid story DLC or sell a ton of cosmetics. You need those big lump sum payments to finance those kinds of games, gamepass has to distribute all of that subscription money between the cost of putting all of those games on the service. We always hear about revenue for gamepass we never hear about profit.
 
Value is subjective but math isn't...

If you buy just 2 games/year available on Game Pass Day 1, you are basically above the Game Pass subscription for a year....
If you wouldn't have bought any of the games on the service then you are losing money. I have GPU, there has only been one game I would have paid for on that service in two years and it was an indie game that made it to PS5 later. I would cancel but I have that payment plan thing they offered it was the only way to get a Series X when I got it and 2 years of GPU is bundled with it. That's why in the long run I'm paying over $800 for my Series X, being an impulse buyer sucks lol.
 

yurinka

Member
That chart is partially incorrect. Again, go read the actual leaked CADE document, not a graphic referencing the document's info.

I wish I had a screenshot of that page in question; paging yurinka yurinka hopefully they have it in their stash of charts & graphs.
Yes, the graph is wrong in many things. The original data mentions revenue of subscriptions with multiple games available on consoles.

The original source doesn't specify if the revenue listed is only from consoles, but we know the Sony number for all platforms (PS and PC) and all game subs (Plus, Now) because it's public (around $4B+ as I remember) and matches the percentages.

So this isnt' the GP revenue for Xbox, they are counting the revenue in all platforms from all their subs with multiple games that are available on console. So for MS they are counting the revenue from Gold, GP and GP Ultimate on Xbox, PC, mobile and tvs.

But even consider that, the $2.9B data seems wrong, it's too high. Sony has twice the game subs and way less "free months" and "$1 deal" offers, so the MS number should be way under $2B. In fact I don't remember the pricing but as I remember Nintendo has more subs than MS so I don't see why Nintendo would make 3 times less money.

They are counting something else there in the case of MS that the other ones aren't counting. I assume that MS is also counting there the 30% cut that MS gets from the DLC/IAP/season passes of the games included in GP, while Nintendo and Sony aren't counting that in the reported number. Or something like that.

88846_1_game-pass-made-2-9-billion-in-2021-or-18-of-total-xbox-revenues_full.jpg


Until they have competition. If Sony can't handle business in the future I'm sure their long term plan is only subscription and cloud.
Sony is the market leader in consoles sold, console MAU and game subs, with like double the market share than MS in all areas. Regarding cloud gaming according to what they mentioned in CMA Sony is also above MS.

Sony is the top 2 company in gaming revenue, only after Tencent. As MS mentioned to the CMA, MS will continue after Sony adding the ABK revenue, specially considering it's going to highly decrease due to lost sales for putting their games day one on GP for PC and Xbox and also pretty likely making at least some of their future games console exclusive once their deals with Sony end. We also have to considering that Sony is in a growing trend in many markets, meaning that their revenue and profits will continue growing as did in recent years.

MS revenue has been growing since the introduction of GP, not falling.
Yes, MS has been buying game companies and adding their revenue on top, so pretty likely compensated revenue lost from GP specially when they had little new 1st party releases or when GP was still pretty small.

Most of these acquired companies still have to put their first Xbox console exclusive day one games on GP, so GP still had almost no negative effect on the revenue of these acquired companies.
 
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Banjo64

cumsessed
With the way GP pricing is structured there is no reason to maintain a gold subscription and subscribe to the base tier of GP. I think you are greatly underestimating the number of Gold users that have moved to GPU. The more successful GP gets the more it weakens the position of the traditional Gold subscription.

That's why I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that MS could drop the paid online requirement entirely at some point, once the number of Gold users has declined to a low enough threshold. MS would likely increase the base price of GP to 15$ on console at that point and eliminate the "Ultimate" tier distinction. Or they could keep the Ultimate tier going but differentiate it via content instead of the online play inclusion.
I think scrap Gold - base Game Pass gives you online play and console Game Pass. Game Pass Ultimate as it is now (PC, xCloud and EA Play). Gold is a relic of the past.
 

sainraja

Member
I think a lot of what is going to happen in the future is going to depend entirely on where any of the gaming companies find success. If services like Game Pass/PS Premium etc take off, then naturally a lot of their focus is going to go there, on how they can grow and add more value to continue growing. It is too early to say anything right now. They are just finding their footing you can say.
 

reksveks

Member
Game pass is not sustainable for AAA single player content, they count on backend monetization and you can't really get that unless you do paid story DLC or sell a ton of cosmetics. You need those big lump sum payments to finance those kinds of games, gamepass has to distribute all of that subscription money between the cost of putting all of those games on the service. We always hear about revenue for gamepass we never hear about profit.
You are missing the fact that Microsoft is making money off all transactions in their store not just their one.

Its the same reason Amazon can offer Prime Delivery or free shows.

Platform holders have more flexibility.
 
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IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
That's a dumb move. Practically idiotic from St Phil and really out of character, which is why I don't believe him. He's just trying not to piss off the traditional gamers before they're ready to go subscription only.

Imagine the increase in subs if Elder Scrolls VI and a future CoD titles were exclusive to Gamepass. I guarantee they'll do this in the future, same with Sony and eventually Nintendo.
 

Ronin_7

Banned
Anyone paying full price for a standalone game is a fool.

With GamePass you get access to everything for $20 a month. Add up that over the course of a year = the price of two fully priced AAA games (this is in NZ dollars lol)

As soon as the big games start dropping for Xbox and the value for GamePass increases even more, less people are going to see a need to buy retail games.
Yes everything that has the word mediocrity in it. Lite is too short to play shit, I already work 40-60H a week I ain't spending time playing most Trash on these services.

Instead I buy the exact games I want and play at my own pace 👍
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
Game pass is not sustainable for AAA single player content, they count on backend monetization and you can't really get that unless you do paid story DLC or sell a ton of cosmetics. You need those big lump sum payments to finance those kinds of games, gamepass has to distribute all of that subscription money between the cost of putting all of those games on the service. We always hear about revenue for gamepass we never hear about profit.
I don't know that this is true. At a certain point with enough subscribers it can become sustainable. If Microsoft were to be able to get 30 million people to subscribe to GPU at current full price, which is admittedly a large lift, that's $450 million in revenue per month. That more than covers the cost of releasing one AAA title per month with hundreds of millions left over. Delivering just 3-4 AAA first party games per year would make the yearly subscription cost well worth it for consumers.

If Microsoft could get their act together and drop a big game every other month it makes a lot of sense at the right number of subscribers to be able to keep the recurring revenue flowing. At scale it works better than the one time purchase model. That's why most major software you buy these days is on a subscription basis instead of a higher cost perpetual license. Surely people here are going to continue to hold on to the idea that somehow video games are different than pretty much every other form of digital entertainment and can't thrive on a subscription model. But as an alternative delivery method Microsoft is betting they can.

The trick is to get enough devices into homes to build the install base to drive subscriptions. That's why Microsoft is selling the Series S for so cheap this holiday and letting other companies offer it as an incentive for things like internet and mobile phone services. They built Series S to drive this subscription model because they're betting that a lot of people are going to prefer to consume games like they consume movies and music.
 
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MarkMe2525

Member
Xbox's is worse than the other consoles, you can't even set it up offline where both the switch and PS5 you can.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to your initial statement, which implied Xbox was the only console using a form of DRM. I'm not even sure how you reach this conclusion as my PlayStation and Xbox work the same in this respect. It is possible you aren't aware that the "initial version check", that up until recently required a one time online check at initial launch of software to ensure you have the correct version for your console (XB1X, XSX, XSS), has been patched out.

As far as the Xbox requiring an initial online connection for set up. This is not DRM. MS requires their console to have an up-to-date OS version to initially work. After initial set up. you can play your disk games offline.

Idk, I can't say I feel the same way.
 

Valedix

Member
I'm not sure how this is relevant to your initial statement, which implied Xbox was the only console using a form of DRM. I'm not even sure how you reach this conclusion as my PlayStation and Xbox work the same in this respect. It is possible you aren't aware that the "initial version check", that up until recently required a one time online check at initial launch of software to ensure you have the correct version for your console (XB1X, XSX, XSS), has been patched out.

As far as the Xbox requiring an initial online connection for set up. This is not DRM. MS requires their console to have an up-to-date OS version to initially work. After initial set up. you can play your disk games offline.

Idk, I can't say I feel the same way.
Initial online setup is literally DRM bro.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
Who

VS a great game but it's also a $5 game. Smart thing would be to buy it.

Along with a pile of other games, including Pentiment which is also stellar (and only in Xbox and Steam). So I dunno, I get a shit ton of value out of it cause I usually play smaller and indie games like Hades or Plague Tail.

These may not be for you, but it's also an optional service and options are awesome - and so are the discounts when these games leave.

I also don't know why folks get into such a whirlwind around it - like it's illegal or some shit.
 

gothmog

Gold Member
Along with a pile of other games, including Pentiment which is also stellar (and only in Xbox and Steam). So I dunno, I get a shit ton of value out of it cause I usually play smaller and indie games like Hades or Plague Tail.

These may not be for you, but it's also an optional service and options are awesome - and so are the discounts when these games leave.

I also don't know why folks get into such a whirlwind around it - like it's illegal or some shit.
Pentiment would probably be a better example as it has a price tag that shows the value. Picking VS and other under $15 titles as reasons to join makes it sound like a Humble Bundle without the ownership.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
Pentiment would probably be a better example as it has a price tag that shows the value. Picking VS and other under $15 titles as reasons to join makes it sound like a Humble Bundle without the ownership.

I can give examples all day, evey day. And I wouldn't have even given it a chance if I didn't get it with GP. I don't like buying games that sit in my dustbin or guilt me into playing it cause it paid 30, 40, or 70 bucks. I have plenty of experience with that model, and I don't like it now that I have another option.

Doesn't mean I don't buy other games but they are surefire things like God of War via Steam for 50% off.
 
The irony of this statement when you look at who you're responding to is not lost on me.
I don't keep lists in my mind of people I'm supposed to agree or disagree with like the Asylum. I take people at their word on a vidyagame forum I peruse for my entertainment.
 
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gothmog

Gold Member
I can give examples all day, evey day. And I wouldn't have even given it a chance if I didn't get it with GP. I don't like buying games that sit in my dustbin or guilt me into playing it cause it paid 30, 40, or 70 bucks. I have plenty of experience with that model, and I don't like it now that I have another option.

Doesn't mean I don't buy other games but they are surefire things like God of War via Steam for 50% off.
You wouldn't give a game that had almost universal praise, started a whole new genre, and was also under $5 a chance? Okay.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
You wouldn't give a game that had almost universal praise, started a whole new genre, and was also under $5 a chance? Okay.

Didn't even know it existed until it showed up in Gamepass... I don't sit next to every game list or updates to things - shocking. And I've already said there's an armload of other examples.

You don't have to brow beat me into hating GP or anything... It's an option and that's why it's ok.
 

jigglet

Banned
Anyone paying full price for a standalone game is a fool.

With GamePass you get access to everything for $20 a month. Add up that over the course of a year = the price of two fully priced AAA games (this is in NZ dollars lol)

As soon as the big games start dropping for Xbox and the value for GamePass increases even more, less people are going to see a need to buy retail games.

Not really. I only buy maybe a game or two each year, and I might play them slowly over the course of many years. 6 months may go by between plays. A subscription service doesn't make sense to someone like me.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
Not really. I only buy maybe a game or two each year, and I might play them slowly over the course of many years. 6 months may go by between plays. A subscription service doesn't make sense to someone like me.

Hate to say it, but buying 600 dollar consoles for 1 or 2 games a year may also not be the right things for you if value is the bias of a decision.
 

laynelane

Member
Anyone paying full price for a standalone game is a fool.

With GamePass you get access to everything for $20 a month. Add up that over the course of a year = the price of two fully priced AAA games (this is in NZ dollars lol)

As soon as the big games start dropping for Xbox and the value for GamePass increases even more, less people are going to see a need to buy retail games.

I prefer physical and don't subscribe to any services at all (gaming, TV, music, etc.). I figure it's a matter of 'to each their own' rather than categorizing anyone with different priorities and tastes as a "fool".
 

jigglet

Banned
Hate to say it, but buying 600 dollar consoles for 1 or 2 games a year may also not be the right things for you if value is the bias of a decision.

I've been playing the same game for 7 years sometimes up to 12 hours a day. I'd wager I play more games than most people on this forum.

I just like to obsess over one or two games, I'm not a "play a game a month" type of person.

I've also never understood the "you need half a dozen killer apps before you should buy a console" - what stupidity is this. If you find a game that you LOVE and will play non stop for 5 years who gives a flying fuck if there is 1 exclusive or 15.
 
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I don't know that this is true. At a certain point with enough subscribers it can become sustainable. If Microsoft were to be able to get 30 million people to subscribe to GPU at current full price, which is admittedly a large lift, that's $450 million in revenue per month. That more than covers the cost of releasing one AAA title per month with hundreds of millions left over. Delivering just 3-4 AAA first party games per year would make the yearly subscription cost well worth it for consumers.

That will probably never happen though because no service has an ARPU in line with its MSRP on a per-user basis. For example, PS+ had an annual ARPU of $52.08 in 2021 (or FY 2021). However that was with a sub count of 48 million.

I've figured that GamePass's likely annual ARPU is too low at the 25 million subscriber mark to where 30 million subscribers would make a difference. They would need closer to 72.6 million subscribers to predictably generate $450 million per month, or $5.4 billion per year in GamePass revenue. And, given other sub services like PS+ and NSO have shown to have less than 50% install base saturation, if MS were to try getting those numbers through just console, they'd need ~ 145 million Xbox owners, which is simply not happening (especially if, even if you could count XBO towards it, that would be a dead platform commercially and vast majority of its owners would have moved on to Series S & X Xbox console-wise).

Although MS have said they expect future GamePass growth to come from outside of console. That said, there's no telling how much ARPU subscribers on PC & mobile would be paying, if it would be close to what subscribers on Xbox are paying (on average) or much lower. Because in the case of the latter that would just increase the amount of raw subs they'd need to hit a steady $450 million per month in service revenue.

If Microsoft could get their act together and drop a big game every other month it makes a lot of sense at the right number of subscribers to be able to keep the recurring revenue flowing. At scale it works better than the one time purchase model. That's why most major software you buy these days is on a subscription basis instead of a higher cost perpetual license. Surely people here are going to continue to hold on to the idea that somehow video games are different than pretty much every other form of digital entertainment and can't thrive on a subscription model. But as an alternative delivery method Microsoft is betting they can.

The kicker, though, is that "major software" you're referring to is generally NOT entertainment software. It's productivity & business software. Programs for clients who use them for work and to help them in turn have that work generate revenue for them as per their jobs/careers.

Entertainment software, such as games, don't have that type of value proposition. That's why subscribing to MS Office or Adobe Photoshop is an easier sell than subscribing to a Netflix-style gaming service. Maximizing your value out of MS Office or Photoshop just means developing a skill set to pursue work that requires the software, creating content and then generating money off of that content, which is going to be a requirement anyway if your profession requires it.

To get similar maximized value out a Netflix-style gaming service, you have to play a LOT of games and try doing so through as much of the catalogue as possible. However, most people tend to commit to just a very small selection of games, or even just a single big game release, at a time. Very few people in general are playing say 10 games a week, in any meaningful capacity. And quick-sampling a game for a few minutes is not the same as actually "playing" it, in terms of making deep progress and getting invested into the story, mechanics, characters, levels/world and such.

In general, most customers only play a handful of games per year anyway, and quite a few wait for sales to kick in to buy what they want. So the only way most any subscription service can beat that in value is to have ways where a subscriber can pay for the service at a much lower price than the typical cost, at which point they're severely lowering the ARPU meaning you need an exponential amount of additional subscribers to make up for it.

The trick is to get enough devices into homes to build the install base to drive subscriptions. That's why Microsoft is selling the Series S for so cheap this holiday and letting other companies offer it as an incentive for things like internet and mobile phone services. They built Series S to drive this subscription model because they're betting that a lot of people are going to prefer to consume games like they consume movies and music.

Except you CAN'T consume games like you can music or even movies without simply sampling the games. Even most of the average indie games take more time to play through than a big Hollywood 2.5 hour blockbuster. Let alone the bigger AAA games, that require hours of investment to really start harvesting everything they can offer. No matter how cheap a service can be offered for, or the games for that matter, time is priceless and you can't buy more of it.

If the idea is that people will want to get their games digitally, then they don't need a service for that. If the idea is that they want them digitally & cheaply, a service COULD provide that but at the expense of having lower ARPU and needing to appeal to enough additional customers to balance that ARPU drop out. For GamePass specifically, at the rate it's been growing, it would not have enough subscriber growth to generate enough revenue wherein the budgets for several AAA games can be covered, for several years. If ever.

Granted, since the games aren't solely being provided through the service, the traditional sales model still exists, so the service only needs to account with enough revenue to cover a portion of the budget otherwise. However, we still don't know the extent to which Day 1 inclusion of big AAA games in GamePass has on game sales. What we can infer is that, it doesn't lead to a boost in sales and in fact might reduce them. The fact games like Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5, both AAA releases, haven't charted NPD outside of their debut months speaks volumes. And while Halo is generally considered a mediocre game with terrible content release timings, Forza is said to be a great arcade racer, in general, so lack of quality can't be a reason for its lack of big sales unless now it is a reason.

That's all important to consider because for any lost sales, the service itself has to pick up the slack in revenue, but there are so many ways to get GamePass on the cheap (or free, even), that as long as those known loopholes continue to exist, MS could be in a situation where the service can't generate enough revenue to ensure AAA software budgets (keep in mind not 100% of the revenue would even go towards software budgets; some of that is going to be stashed as reserve, a lot used to pay for expenses, licensing rights, etc.), yet the games arne't seeing enough direct sales to generate the needed revenue that way, either.

It's a potentially very troublesome scenario.
 
Above user is ignoring that Gamepass per 500,000 people subbing for two years, including accessories, MTX, DLC and other additional paid areas, already net Microsoft over $1.5 billion, so you can double that number for 1 million subs, and then multiply it by 29 for 29 million subs. That's also not taking into account some subs spend more than others on games, and users who sub for more than 2 years.

It's time to give up on the "not sustainable" stuff now. The thought it doesn't make enough to hose AAA games (when it already does) is ridiculous. As supply increase, so does console game pass, and then of course you have PC game pass and TV Gamepass on top of that. There's no "decrease" in subs and revenue, just a shrinking in "growth" because there needs to be more supply.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
So if requiring online setup isn't called DRM what is it called? All new Series Xs will be ewaste eventually once the servers are closed.
Digital Rights Management software "DRM" is used to certify authorization of a software license. The xbox requiring the newest OS build during set up is simply it's initiation process, there is no special name for it.
 

Valedix

Member
Digital Rights Management software "DRM" is used to certify authorization of a software license. The xbox requiring the newest OS build during set up is simply it's initiation process, there is no special name for it.
You do you bro lol whatever amount of copium you need.
 
Anyone paying full price for a standalone game is a fool.

With GamePass you get access to everything for $20 a month. Add up that over the course of a year = the price of two fully priced AAA games (this is in NZ dollars lol)

As soon as the big games start dropping for Xbox and the value for GamePass increases even more, less people are going to see a need to buy retail games.
This may be true for now, but I can also imagine MS pivoting gamepass towards more restrictions, like x hours of playtime per month for $15 USD, or forced ads, with unlimited ad-free for $30, etc, like pretty much all TV streaming services are moving towards. Currently it’s still a steal, but I don’t think it will stay that way for very long. I'd be surprised if a year from now they still allow people to sub for just 1 month and binge all their AAA content for a mere $20 now that the floodgates will open soon. Or maybe an alternative solution is they'll pivot most of their AAA stuff to GAAS, as that is most ideal for a monthly sub scenario. Usher in the that GAAS hellscape plz.

Above user is ignoring that Gamepass per 500,000 people subbing for two years, including accessories, MTX, DLC and other additional paid areas, already net Microsoft over $1.5 billion, so you can double that number for 1 million subs, and then multiply it by 29 for 29 million subs. That's also not taking into account some subs spend more than others on games, and users who sub for more than 2 years.

It's time to give up on the "not sustainable" stuff now. The thought it doesn't make enough to hose AAA games (when it already does) is ridiculous. As supply increase, so does console game pass, and then of course you have PC game pass and TV Gamepass on top of that. There's no "decrease" in subs and revenue, just a shrinking in "growth" because there needs to be more supply.

This really isn't the case. 1) Your math seems basically pulled from your ass in terms of revenue vs profit vs what actual sectors are making money (gamepass v MTX v DLC). 2) I can guarantee the vast majority of people who subbed long term did so through cheap as hell deals that were ongoing for a long while, ie. me bumping my sub to 2 years every few months through cheap key sites that no longer seem to have cheap keys available for a year now. They day I have to pay full price for a month of gamepass is the day I unsub and wait until 4-5 AAA games have accrued that I haven't played, and then dip in and out for a month or two. If most people do that kind of method, the "is this sustainable" question certainly comes into play, especially with MS's enormously increased payroll through studio acquisitions if the Bliz/Act deal goes through. Which is why I think they'll end up imminently raising the price or restricting playtime/sticking in ads for lower tiers, or pivoting most stuff to GAAS.
 
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MarkMe2525

Member
This may be true for now, but I can also imagine MS pivoting gamepass towards more restrictions, like x hours of playtime per month for $10 USD, or forced ads, with unlimited ad-free for $20, etc, like pretty much all TV streaming services are moving towards. Current it’s still a steal, but I don’t think it will stay that way for very long. Id be surprised if a year from now they still allow people to sub for just 1 month and binge all their AAA content.
I don't doubt that there will be "adjustments" in the future. I imagine xcloud being spun off into an add-on if it ever takes off big time. Maybe an additional charge for 4k. Even with the game data running on their own servers, the opportunity costs from that server blade being tied up can't be ignored if it's happening at massive scale.
 
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GhostOfTsu

Banned
You wouldn't give a game that had almost universal praise, started a whole new genre, and was also under $5 a chance? Okay.
Vampire Survivors didn't start anything. It's a copy of a mobile game called Magical Survival (which is actually better looking and better in general). That game started tons of clones on mobile like Super Wizard, Survivor.io, Lonely Survivor, Magic Dungeon etc. PC gamers were very late.

I dropped Vampire Survivors very fast because it's so outdated and nothing special.
 

gothmog

Gold Member
Vampire Survivors didn't start anything. It's a copy of a mobile game called Magical Survival (which is actually better looking and better in general). That game started tons of clones on mobile like Super Wizard, Survivor.io, Lonely Survivor, Magic Dungeon etc. PC gamers were very late.

I dropped Vampire Survivors very fast because it's so outdated and nothing special.
I never heard of terms like "Bullet Heaven" until VS came out, so I assumed VS started it. Interesting that there were many other games before that.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
That will probably never happen though because no service has an ARPU in line with its MSRP on a per-user basis. For example, PS+ had an annual ARPU of $52.08 in 2021 (or FY 2021). However that was with a sub count of 48 million.

I've figured that GamePass's likely annual ARPU is too low at the 25 million subscriber mark to where 30 million subscribers would make a difference. They would need closer to 72.6 million subscribers to predictably generate $450 million per month, or $5.4 billion per year in GamePass revenue. And, given other sub services like PS+ and NSO have shown to have less than 50% install base saturation, if MS were to try getting those numbers through just console, they'd need ~ 145 million Xbox owners, which is simply not happening (especially if, even if you could count XBO towards it, that would be a dead platform commercially and vast majority of its owners would have moved on to Series S & X Xbox console-wise).

Although MS have said they expect future GamePass growth to come from outside of console. That said, there's no telling how much ARPU subscribers on PC & mobile would be paying, if it would be close to what subscribers on Xbox are paying (on average) or much lower. Because in the case of the latter that would just increase the amount of raw subs they'd need to hit a steady $450 million per month in service revenue.
I'm not sure where you get that Microsoft needs 145 million Xbox owners to get that many subscribers. Especially when, at least according to what's coming out in the acquisition information, Microsoft has between 25 million and 29 million already. I'm sure a lot of them are on the 3 years for the price of 1 train, but certainly not all of them.

PS+ ARPU isn't really relevant to what Microsoft is doing with Game Pass. There is a point at which the recurring revenue outpaces the operating costs and the net income curve escalates. Neither of us know what that is but it seems silly to expect that it would take 145 million consoles to be able to get there.
The kicker, though, is that "major software" you're referring to is generally NOT entertainment software. It's productivity & business software. Programs for clients who use them for work and to help them in turn have that work generate revenue for them as per their jobs/careers.

Entertainment software, such as games, don't have that type of value proposition. That's why subscribing to MS Office or Adobe Photoshop is an easier sell than subscribing to a Netflix-style gaming service. Maximizing your value out of MS Office or Photoshop just means developing a skill set to pursue work that requires the software, creating content and then generating money off of that content, which is going to be a requirement anyway if your profession requires it.

To get similar maximized value out a Netflix-style gaming service, you have to play a LOT of games and try doing so through as much of the catalogue as possible. However, most people tend to commit to just a very small selection of games, or even just a single big game release, at a time. Very few people in general are playing say 10 games a week, in any meaningful capacity. And quick-sampling a game for a few minutes is not the same as actually "playing" it, in terms of making deep progress and getting invested into the story, mechanics, characters, levels/world and such.

In general, most customers only play a handful of games per year anyway, and quite a few wait for sales to kick in to buy what they want. So the only way most any subscription service can beat that in value is to have ways where a subscriber can pay for the service at a much lower price than the typical cost, at which point they're severely lowering the ARPU meaning you need an exponential amount of additional subscribers to make up for it.
Entertainment software has been working on a subscription model for quite some time now. There are people who have paid Blizzard the price of Game Pass every month for years for access to just 1 game. When you talk about maximizing value it seems like there's more value in paying $180 for access to more than a hundred games plus new first party games day 1 than there is paying $180 for only 3 games per year that most people will probably play through once or twice and never pick up again. The reason most people only play a handful of games each year is because new games are expensive and outside of enthusiasts people don't want to spend what it costs.

A lot of us here want to believe that video games are magically different from movies and music. But they aren't. Not really. There were people who were never going to subscribe to something like Apple Music or Spotify because it was a waste of money if you didn't own albums, then songs. Yet most people seem to be just fine with it now that the transition has happened. Same with movies. Sure, there are some people who still want shelves full of VHS tapes and plastic discs. But most people are fine with just watching whatever Is on the services they subscribe to or paying Amazon or Apple 4 bucks to borrow it. They don't need to own everything they consume.

I don't think everyone will subscribe to a service like game pass. But the people Series S is targeted at probably will. It's not you or me that Series S and game pass were made for.
Except you CAN'T consume games like you can music or even movies without simply sampling the games. Even most of the average indie games take more time to play through than a big Hollywood 2.5 hour blockbuster. Let alone the bigger AAA games, that require hours of investment to really start harvesting everything they can offer. No matter how cheap a service can be offered for, or the games for that matter, time is priceless and you can't buy more of it.

If the idea is that people will want to get their games digitally, then they don't need a service for that. If the idea is that they want them digitally & cheaply, a service COULD provide that but at the expense of having lower ARPU and needing to appeal to enough additional customers to balance that ARPU drop out. For GamePass specifically, at the rate it's been growing, it would not have enough subscriber growth to generate enough revenue wherein the budgets for several AAA games can be covered, for several years. If ever.

Granted, since the games aren't solely being provided through the service, the traditional sales model still exists, so the service only needs to account with enough revenue to cover a portion of the budget otherwise. However, we still don't know the extent to which Day 1 inclusion of big AAA games in GamePass has on game sales. What we can infer is that, it doesn't lead to a boost in sales and in fact might reduce them. The fact games like Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5, both AAA releases, haven't charted NPD outside of their debut months speaks volumes. And while Halo is generally considered a mediocre game with terrible content release timings, Forza is said to be a great arcade racer, in general, so lack of quality can't be a reason for its lack of big sales unless now it is a reason.

That's all important to consider because for any lost sales, the service itself has to pick up the slack in revenue, but there are so many ways to get GamePass on the cheap (or free, even), that as long as those known loopholes continue to exist, MS could be in a situation where the service can't generate enough revenue to ensure AAA software budgets (keep in mind not 100% of the revenue would even go towards software budgets; some of that is going to be stashed as reserve, a lot used to pay for expenses, licensing rights, etc.), yet the games arne't seeing enough direct sales to generate the needed revenue that way, either.

It's a potentially very troublesome scenario.
There's no rule that says you have to consume an entire game at once. That's what save states are for. If a game takes 20 hours to complete you can safely do that within a single month of a subscription service. You could play through 4 or 5 games in a month. What you seem to be discounting is that with game pass or PS+ it is now possible to sample games to see what you like and if it's something you really like you can still buy it to keep forever.

We're too hung up on the traditional sales model. The number of copies an individual game sells isn't nearly as important as how much money Microsoft makes in aggregate. When the purpose changes from selling copies to getting people to pay you every month to play your games the economics change. Not charting in NPD doesn't say anything other than what any sane person would expect. Microsoft has determined that NPD rankings for copies sold is not the most important metric when it comes to their first party games. They are expecting that their revenue will come from subs, not unit sales. Microsoft doesn't seem to be making less money, so it can't be all bad.

A lot of people can't get past the current model where these companies have to sell 80+ million consoles so that they can sell 10 million copies of a game. The current model and the budgets behind it is going to make gaming less accessible as time goes on. Are most people going to want to pay $80-$100 for each game in the future? At some point the model has to change. Not to mention that these companies have to start over with every generation and it takes years to rebuild that economy of scale. Sony has had to release most of their biggest first party games cross-gen to be able to make enough money on them to recoup their investment. Microsoft, in addition to cross-gen, made the decision to release all of their first party games on PC day 1 and extend GPU to both console and PC to grow that economy of scale.

The way to avoid the troublesome scenario is to stop treating each game as it's own economy and find ways to get more of the billions of people around the world who play video games into the ecosystem. You're probably not going to grow the console market with $500+ consoles and $70 games. Something disruptive needs to happen.
 
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Anyone paying full price for a standalone game is a fool.

With GamePass you get access to everything for $20 a month. Add up that over the course of a year = the price of two fully priced AAA games (this is in NZ dollars lol)

As soon as the big games start dropping for Xbox and the value for GamePass increases even more, less people are going to see a need to buy retail games.
Currently... that's a majority of Xbox users. For a lot of casual gamers who only buy 1-4 games a year, it's a terrible value proposition. I play much more than 1-4 games a year, so GamePass is a great value for me.
 
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