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Miller Ross (Crystal Dynamics leaker): Perfect Dark hit road bumps, now expected to release at least a year after Tomb Raider

Topher

Gold Member
In no way im saying Naughty Dog is perfect. But we have games from them and we know the quality of them.

When it comes to Naughty Dog I hope we see factions soon. I'm not really into multiplayer games but I hope it's good.

No job is perfect. It is Sunday and I have work I have to knock out this afternoon. Should I go cry on twitter?

I'm not a MP gamer either, but I remember a lot of folks like MP with TLOU so I expect folks will be happy with this standalone.
 
No job is perfect. It is Sunday and I have work I have to knock out this afternoon. Should I go cry on twitter?

I'm not a MP gamer either, but I remember a lot of folks like MP with TLOU so I expect folks will be happy with this standalone.

Yeah my job definitely isn't perfect. At any moment I can be called to do it. And I have worked 12 hour shifts on a weekend before. But what matters in the end is the work I put out.

I can imagine it's the same with any developer from a gamers perspective. Sure crunch sucks but sometimes its unavoidable. If the end product is great then that benefits everyone. But sure if it's done without crunch that's a lot better.

However crunch isn't an indication that a game developer isn't managed properly. To try to say that about NaughtyDog after they put out quality games isn't correct in my opinion.
 

graywolf323

Gold Member
The shocking part is that they used to be geniunely great in publishing video games. Remember what Bioware put out under Microsoft? Or Bungie? Or Epic? Or Team Ninja? Age of Empires 2 is a MS game and has a legendary status and still played today. Something happened at Xbox/MS some decade ago that just killed their consistent and praised games output.
not going to be a popular opinion but they’ve been struggling since Phil took over first party in ‘08/‘09
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Avowed, hellblade, fable, State of decay 3 , contraband seem to be going well. No news of poor development.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, in case you weren't aware of the following reports:

Avowed
Reported by Jason Schreier.


Hellblade
As per June 2021.


Fable
Internal tools mandated by MS. Reported by Jez Cordon.


Ex-Fable-developer reported Playground devs struggling with Fable because of lack of experience with RPGs.
https://www.thegamer.com/fable-development-slow/

6 key leadership people left Playground games.

Eidos Montreal roped in as co-developers, similar to Perfect Dark.


State of Decay 3

 
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I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, in case you weren't aware of the following reports:

Avowed
Reported by Jason Schreier.


Hellblade
As per June 2022.


Fable
Internal tools mandated by MS. Reported by Jez Cordon.


Ex-Fable-developer reported Playground devs struggling with Fable because of lack of experience with RPGs.
https://www.thegamer.com/fable-development-slow/

6 key leadership people left Playground games.

Eidos Montreal roped in as co-developers, similar to Perfect Dark.


State of Decay 3


It really is stunning how badly managed these studios are.

As an Xbox owner it really sucks. There is something seriously wrong with studio management. No way you can have that much money, resources, and yet continually disappoint with every single studio.

Surely The Coalition will have something to show soon to excite Xbox gamers? It's been almost 4 years since Gears 5

As a result of this, there is a LOT riding on Starfield to become the next big thing for Microsoft IP.
 
not going to be a popular opinion but they’ve been struggling since Phil took over first party in ‘08/‘09

Yeah. I think Phil is good at certain things - hardware development, ecosystem, sub services.

But there's no denying he is ABYSMAL at managing studios/games. I really think he's the one that needs a layoff. His tenture and failings in that role have gone on for far too long. Thing is, he's very political and sharp and that's how he's lasted so long. The boss he reports to just doesn't get games either, so it's allowed to fester into the problems have grown so big.

J Allard and Peter Moore were the last executives at Xbox that really understood gaming the way that Sony understands it.
 
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Beer Baelly

Al Pachinko, Konami President
Florida Lead GIF
 
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, in case you weren't aware of the following reports:

Avowed
Reported by Jason Schreier.

[/URL]

Hellblade
As per June 2021.

[/URL]

Fable
Internal tools mandated by MS. Reported by Jez Cordon.

[/URL]

Ex-Fable-developer reported Playground devs struggling with Fable because of lack of experience with RPGs.
https://www.thegamer.com/fable-development-slow/

6 key leadership people left Playground games.
[/URL]

Eidos Montreal roped in as co-developers, similar to Perfect Dark.

[/URL]

State of Decay 3
[/URL]

[/URL]
Many of those are norms in game development, reboots, slowdowns etc. even GOW was slated for 2021 and pushed to 2022, slow down or push backs isn’t inidcitivf of development hell. It’s rare for projects to complete on their first developmental deadline. Avowed you s reported to be in a good place and hellblade was announced early but nothing of developers being unhappy or anything.
 
Many of those are norms in game development, reboots, slowdowns etc. even GOW was slated for 2021 and pushed to 2022, slow down or push backs isn’t inidcitivf of development hell. It’s rare for projects to complete on their first developmental deadline. Avowed you s reported to be in a good place and hellblade was announced early but nothing of developers being unhappy or anything.

This equivocating is really tiring.

We are not just talking about 1 year delays or a few months of delays. We are talking about Studios that have not produced anything tangible for YEARS well past when they should have. All at the same time. And it's resulting in a massive hole in the Xbox lineup.

That's not "the norm".
 
This equivocating is really tiring.

We are not just talking about 1 year delays or a few months of delays. We are talking about Studios that have not produced anything tangible for YEARS well past when they should have. All at the same time. And it's resulting in a massive hole in the Xbox lineup.

That's not "the norm".
Obsidian has had like 3 games in two years. Ninja theory is a smaller studio producing a game punching above its weight so it’s taking time. Undead labs is similar, a small studio. It does seem the initiative is having a hard time getting it’s foothold, a studio built from the ground up some struggle is expected. Considering how hands off MS is with their studios it’s not completely surprising that’s everything doesn’t fall neatly in place. For me I’d rather the hands off approach because in the end each product has its own identity which has downsides of its own.
 

Philfrag

Banned
As usual. The game probably hadn't even started development when we started to hear about it. I have a feeling they've just started. That feeling coming from years of evidence of watching this dogshit industry of course
 

Raven77

Member
Avowed, hellblade, fable, State of decay 3 , contraband seem to be going well. No news of poor development.

Yes, no news is right... Avowed? When's that coming out? 2025? 26? Ever? Never even heard of Contraband.

And Fable had some big rumors recently of being a complete mess.

I hope I'm wrong but Xbox track record this generations gives me no reason to be.
 

Three

Member
No pressure to release anything on time is what this is. When they are getting your money regardless they can stretch it out for as long as they like. MS did not have these issues with output when it mattered before. Even when they were only concentrating on the Christmas period or console releases. Now they don't even need to do that.

The ultimate way are devs who can't lounge around and have to release a game to make money at all. No game no income. We've moved past that now though.
 
No pressure to release anything on time is what this is. When they are getting your money regardless they can stretch it out for as long as they like. MS did not have these issues with output when it mattered before. Even when they were only concentrating on the Christmas period or console releases. Now they don't even need to do that.

The ultimate way are devs who can't lounge around and have to release a game to make money at all. No game no income. We've moved past that now though.

Feels like their studios really don't have good MILESTONE management. Protoype -> Approval/Design Structure -> Production -> Alpha/Beta -> Release

Everwild had multiple trailers and we have the Director saying they don't even know what the game is yet. That is a big red flag.
 

Crayon

Member
It memberberries for a sub that all the 40 year old fans already have. Just get something out, say 20 million people played it, and move on.
 
Yes, no news is right... Avowed? When's that coming out? 2025? 26? Ever? Never even heard of Contraband.

And Fable had some big rumors recently of being a complete mess.

I hope I'm wrong but Xbox track record this generations gives me no reason to be.
This generation we got Psychonauts 2, Fortza horizon , pentiment, grounded, flight sim off the top of my head. Their output has been okay 2022 just had a major gap coming off 2021 publisher of the year. 2023 seems to be in a good place. They aren’t as consistent as the competition but Nintendo doesn’t rely on third parties and Sony has a formula their studios follow, Xbox has their own thing going on. I apprecite all three have their own identity atm.
 
This generation we got Psychonauts 2, Fortza horizon , pentiment, grounded, flight sim off the top of my head. Their output has been okay 2022 just had a major gap coming off 2021 publisher of the year. 2023 seems to be in a good place. They aren’t as consistent as the competition but Nintendo doesn’t rely on third parties and Sony has a formula their studios follow, Xbox has their own thing going on. I apprecite all three have their own identity atm.

Ahhh yisssss, the Publisher of the Year award in 2021 that we will be talking about ten years from now as reason to not be concerned. Because they were obviously better than every publisher that year if we tweak some metacritic stats to fit that narrative.
 
Ahhh yisssss, the Publisher of the Year award in 2021 that we will be talking about ten years from now as reason to not be concerned. Because they were obviously better than every publisher that year if we tweak some metacritic stats to fit that narrative.
It seems you have an axe to grind in general but if you take a step back and look objectively , their output was bad this year not terrible in general.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Many of those are norms in game development, reboots, slowdowns etc. even GOW was slated for 2021 and pushed to 2022, slow down or push backs isn’t inidcitivf of development hell. It’s rare for projects to complete on their first developmental deadline. Avowed you s reported to be in a good place and hellblade was announced early but nothing of developers being unhappy or anything.
None of this is the norm. We aren't talking about a small delay. These games are being rebooted left and right, and we haven't even once seen gameplay for most of them.
  • Avowed was rebooted last year.
  • Hellblade was announced in 2019 and has been in pre-production for at least 3 years. For reference, Kojima conceptualized, developed, and released Death Stranding in 3 years.
  • Ex-Fable developer claiming that devs are struggling to make this RPG game. Then they bring in Eidos Montreal to make the game.
  • State of Decay is still locked in pre-production because of reported studio troubles.
  • Everwild was also just rebooted.
These games were announced in 2020. It's 2023, and we haven't seen a single second of gameplay for any of them - except Hellbade 2.

I wish XGS good luck, that they make good games, but so far, this is not normal at all.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
It seems you have an axe to grind in general but if you take a step back and look objectively , their output was bad this year not terrible in general.

Nothing "objective" about it, but it wasn't a good year for Microsoft first party. Not terrible either, but certainly not good imo.
 
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None of this is the norm. We aren't talking about a small delay. These games are being rebooted left and right, and we haven't even once seen gameplay for most of them.
  • Avowed was rebooted last year.
  • Hellblade was announced in 2019 and has been in pre-production for at least 3 years. For reference, Kojima conceptualized, developed, and released Death Stranding in 3 years.
  • Ex-Fable developer claiming that devs are struggling to make this RPG game. Then they bring in Eidos Montreal to make the game.
  • State of Decay is still locked in pre-production because of reported studio troubles.
  • Everwild was also just rebooted.
These games were announced in 2020. It's 2023, and we haven't seen a single second of gameplay for any of them - except Hellbade 2.

I wish XGS good luck, that they make good games, but so far, this is not normal at all.
Either the management was/is pisspoor with these titles or they have been anounced WAY to early. Probably both though, at least thats how it looks like right now.
 

Three

Member
Feels like their studios really don't have good MILESTONE management. Protoype -> Approval/Design Structure -> Production -> Alpha/Beta -> Release

Everwild had multiple trailers and we have the Director saying they don't even know what the game is yet. That is a big red flag.
It's not that they don't have good milestone management at the studios but showing that early to the public having not reached any was intentional because they were trying to sell hardware. Now it's mostly silence until they reach those studio milestones and need to build hype for the title.
 
It's not that they don't have good milestone management at the studios but showing that early to the public having not reached any was intentional because they were trying to sell hardware. Now it's mostly silence until they reach those studio milestones and need to build hype for the title.

IMHO, it's not about showing things too early.

These games were announced/shown over 3 years ago. We should have better progress to report by now. But all we ever get are insiders leaking that projects have been rebooted, still early, and won't be coming out anytime soon.

If you had asked me if I thought Perfect Dark would be released by now, like 5 years after the Initiative was formed, I would say that we would AT LEAST have gameplay by now and be maybe 1 year out from release AT WORST.
 
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Kacho

Gold Member
The publisher of the year line just comes across as disingenuous trolling at this point. Especially after 2022. It’s something people trot out when they want to shield Xbox from criticism.

If you think everything is sunshine and rainbows on Xbox, more power to you. I’m just not sure why you would argue against people wanting them to do better because there’s clearly plenty of room for that.
 
It really is stunning how badly managed these studios are.

As an Xbox owner it really sucks. There is something seriously wrong with studio management. No way you can have that much money, resources, and yet continually disappoint with every single studio.

Surely The Coalition will have something to show soon to excite Xbox gamers? It's been almost 4 years since Gears 5

As a result of this, there is a LOT riding on Starfield to become the next big thing for Microsoft IP.
I don’t know what game The Coalition is working on but they did the Series X version of Gears 5 which was essentially a system showcase, and the then dropped Hivebusters DLC not long after which was probably the best Gears content since the original trilogy. They worked with Epic on the Unreal 5 tech demo, etc. Now I want to know what they are up to next since they are a talented studio that largely turns out quality content.
 
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It really is stunning how badly managed these studios are.

As an Xbox owner it really sucks. There is something seriously wrong with studio management. No way you can have that much money, resources, and yet continually disappoint with every single studio.

Surely The Coalition will have something to show soon to excite Xbox gamers? It's been almost 4 years since Gears 5

As a result of this, there is a LOT riding on Starfield to become the next big thing for Microsoft IP.
Everyone thinks that Microsoft will keep up expenses on AAA games going into GamePass, yet here they are having layoffs and will almost certainly raise GamePass prices in the coming months.

We're going to see Microsoft focus on margins more and more, which has always been the criticism around GamePass, that it will get more and more expensive, with less quality games over time.
 
Everyone thinks that Microsoft will keep up expenses on AAA games going into GamePass, yet here they are having layoffs and will almost certainly raise GamePass prices in the coming months.

We're going to see Microsoft focus on margins more and more, which has always been the criticism around GamePass, that it will get more and more expensive, with less quality games over time.

This is what makes their massive "Expansion and Aquisition Spree" since 2020 all the more comical.

Tech is known for Boom/Bust cycles. We are going through a Bust after a massive Boom. How can you on the one hand lay off 10,000 employees but then still pursue a $70B acquisition for 10,000+ more employees?

But yes, it seems like when money/cash is flowing in like crazy, spending is wreckless. And the moment the business environment is not as good, the first knee jerk reaction is to start laying people off. It's really bad management IMHO to follow this model.
 
The shocking part is that they used to be geniunely great in publishing video games. Remember what Bioware put out under Microsoft? Or Bungie? Or Epic? Or Team Ninja? Age of Empires 2 is a MS game and has a legendary status and still played today. Something happened at Xbox/MS some decade ago that just killed their consistent and praised games output.
They want to make their games as cheap as possible and get them out on gamepass.

When it comes time for these games to come out, they're just not in the condition they need to be, so they get delayed.

Rather than give these studios money, they've put all their money into M&A. The problem with M&A is, it takes time.
 
This is what makes their massive "Expansion and Aquisition Spree" since 2020 all the more comical.

Tech is known for Boom/Bust cycles. We are going through a Bust after a massive Boom. How can you on the one hand lay off 10,000 employees but then still pursue a $70B acquisition for 10,000+ more employees?

But yes, it seems like when money/cash is flowing in like crazy, spending is wreckless. And the moment the business environment is not as good, the first knee jerk reaction is to start laying people off. It's really bad management IMHO to follow this model.

See my comment after yours, they want low margins. They're willing to spend money on studios and IP, but they ultimately want these studios operating at the lowest staffing levels.

The equation on GamePass is obviously simple. Revenue - Cost = Operating Income.

If you're struggling to increase revenue i.e. subs, the only thing you can do is cut costs. And note that they were selling the XSS for massive discounts through the holidays. This reduced their revenue tremendously, meaning cuts were on the way, especially when GamePass numbers didn't rise how they thought they would (which I think we'll hear on their next financial report).
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Probably end up a Series Y launch game.
Why is every xbox game having these issues?
I have no proof, but I'll take a guess that MS is so big and bureaucratic, it's probably painful to execute things without people second guessing you or watching over your shoulder.

I dont work in tech but have worked in medium and huge Fortune 500 companies. Even though the medium sized ones are still gigantic compared to small companies, you wouldnt believe how much looser and more freedom you get to make decisions and push them through without it going through a big chain of command.

I've never worked at a super small company so it's probably even more flexible.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
That's bullshit. That "70 percent" nonsense came from Jason Schrierer's Kotaku article. 14 out of 19 non-lead designers left Naughty Dog sometime between Uncharted 4's completion and TLOU 2's release. There was no indication of the reasons. No idea where the rest of that is coming from but it sounds entirely made up.

Why are you making this about Sony anyway?

The completely honest thing was there's been the usual rinse and repeat Microsoft dog piling which while plenty is deserved there is users that act like Sony have everything locked and like to chime in how perfect they think Sony manages their studios when it is simply not true.

I accept that this thread is about MS but I just don't want to make some thread that's like "Sony aren't perfect either" offer links to various articles and ex employees stating their not favourable comments on their studios they worked for as it would just be full of empathy emoji from the Sony guys on here and wouldn't really do any favours and would in sight warring and probably bans so I thought I'd mention it in here instead.

But, you guys are right. I shouldn't be trying to deflect and do "me too" tactics in a thread that's covering microsofts clear issues in development just because I'm a fan of xbox.

Respect you guys. Appreciate the gut checks.
 
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I'm fine with this. It's Perfect Dark. The franchise that was a superior sequel to a game that many claim was one of the greatest N64 games of all time. Delay it over and over and over until you get it fully right.

5720


Goldeneye and Perfect Dark map design and multi-tiered missions(based on difficulty) expanded to 2023 sizes, is a lot of work. As it should be.
 

vj27

Banned
Is this trust worthy? I’m balls deep in the halo community and we all thought halo the endless (campaign dlc) was 100% a real thing even if it got cancelled, there were just “leaks” and “rumors” EVERYWHERE about it, very credible stuff with trademarks and everything. An it turns out all of that was a lie, I’m kinda 50/50 with these Xbox rumors at this point.

I believe this though because didn’t they restructure their entire studio like a year 2 after being announced?? Fuck is Mat Booty doing over there.
 
The completely honest thing was there's been the usual rinse and repeat Microsoft dog piling which while plenty is deserved there is users that act like Sony have everything locked and like to chime in how perfect they think Sony manages their studios when it is simply not true.

I accept that this thread is about MS but I just don't want to make some thread that's like "Sony aren't perfect either" offer links to various articles and ex employees stating their not favourable comments on their studios they worked for as it would just be full of empathy emoji from the Sony guys on here and wouldn't really do any favours and would in sight warring and probably bans so I thought I'd mention it in here instead.

Game development is hard. Even for the best studios in the business like Naughty Dog. When you have to grow your developers from 100, to then 200, to then 500 or more....It's really difficult because the people you hire are mostly going to be either new and straight out of college, or completely new to the industry itself trying to break through. This can put a lot of stress on the Leads that know what to do to actually train all of these people and keep them adequately busy, which can lead to burnout and turnover. This is true in any industry that's rapidly growing.

The key difference is that despite their challenges, the top studios still managed to deliver consistently high quality output on a regular basis (even if slightly delayed).

What we are talking about here (in general) for many of Microsoft's big studios goes far beyond mere growing pains. It's not knowing what games are years into development, significant reboots, starting over from scratch, etc. etc....that's why we're here 5 years later and not seen a single tangible thing from The Initiative.

And it's not to say Sony doesn't go through those REALLY bad periods, Sony Santa Monica certainly did. But amazingly from 2013 to 2018 (5 years), they were able to completely abandon a failing new IP and turn out a GOTY contender. So it's possible to still fail AND manage to deliver eventually within a reasonable time. But what we are seeing so far from some of MS games studios is a lot worse than that with no confidence from Xbox leadership that things are getting better.
 
1. Make a great Xbox ecosystem via Gamepass. Pretty good!
2. Make Xbox a great games publisher. Pretty bad!

The problem with #1 is if you can't do #2, you'll eventually fail at #1.

People don't see the financial reports for GamePass, but people have been guaranteeing you all that it isn't sustainable. It's not as bad as say MoviePass, but the idea that this is going to last as is just isn't realistic. Games cost way too much money to develop to put on GamePass, unless Microsoft is paying for the entire life cycle of the game's sales, and if they are, their margins are shot.

Think about it, let's say all game publishers make a collective of 10 billion dollars annual on Xbox in revenue. Microsoft would naturally take 30% of that revenue (less physical sales, but let's ignore that for now). That's 3 billion dollars for Xbox in revenue.

If Microsoft has to pay 7 billion dollars to get the games on GamePass, not only are they not receiving royalties anymore, but all of their revenue needs to come from subs. Obviously there is a bit of a mix, people are still buying games, but making up 7 billion in revenue via subs, isn't easy. And you have to maintain that.

So obviously, Microsoft doesn't put EVERY game on GamePass, but what they're doing by putting significant titles on GamePass is that people are content with their GamePass games and buy FEWER games, which means even the games that aren't on GamePass make less money.

This means publishers aren't going to want to put their games on Xbox (as much) and certainly don't want to put exclusives on Xbox where they could have made their money on PlayStation which has a larger userbase.

What was the big news for GamePass recently? That Persona was coming, games that also came to PS4 (though it looks like Microsoft probably made a deal for them not to come to PS5 right away). Atlus only agreed to this because they know most people have already purchased the games on the PlayStation ecosystem. Ask yourself why Microsoft hasn't gotten a game like CoD, GTA, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Silent Hill, Resident Evil, Cyberpunk, Witcher exclusive? The answer is because it costs way too much, you have to cover the loss in sales on PS5 AND the damage to the franchise. If I think Cyberpunk is going to sell 15 million copies on PS5 and the sequel could have sold another 15 million.... I'm going to ask you for at least 20 million copies worth of compensation. That's a 1.4 billion dollar exclusivity deal...

Sony can do exclusivity deals, because the Xbox userbase is small and to Spencer's credit, Sony does want to keep them small, because it keeps these deals affordable and helps you sell units for which you'll make up the costs via continued royalties.

Bottom line is I don't see how you keep a GamePass type subscription going if it focuses on external content and even your internal content takes a hit.

Imagine Starfield in a perfect universe sells 20 million units exclusive to xbox. Let's call that 20 million at 70 dollars. Again, that's 1.4 billion dollars for just one game. Not even including PC sales. Now you look at GamePass subscriptions and those same 20 million people paying 10 dollars a month for a year, that's 2.4 billion... but the question is do they keep gamepass for the whole year or just the month or so they play starfield. Not to mention the lost sales with the rest of the library...
 
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