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God Of War Ragnarok Officially sells through 11 Million copies

jm89

Member
Oh lawd tlou2 argument thread.

imma-head-out.gif
 

ProtoByte

Member
Naughty Dog needs to up their game

TLOU 2 was divisive and the gameplay structure wasn’t improved much (and it needs lots of improving)

The God of War formula/design structure is more appealing
TLOU2's underperformance had nothing to do with its gameplay. The gameplay was ace, and I haven't played as mechanically engaging and well designed game since. The story and the leaks are really what fucked that game over.

But Ragnarok selling this much this quickly, with around 30% of PS5s out compared to PS4s when GoW released is nuts. This thing is going to do 23-25 million just on PS5.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
TLOU p2 was too linear with the same formula and had no MP

GowR is a more massive game, and I’d say more appealing in general
It's more appealing yes, but not by much. TLOU sold 20 million just like GOW. The sequel underperformed despite being more open and longer. I can see why GOW would outsell TLOU Part 2, but to completely obliterate it in 2 months shows that either TLOU massively underperformed or GOW overperformed. I think GOW is performing like a sequel to a 20 million hit normally would.

TLOU2 simply couldnt overcome its backlash and that hurt its legs despite the fact that it sold 4 million in its first weekend.
 

ProtoByte

Member
If it's anything like other crossgen titles, it's probably about 70/30 PS5 to PS4.


Also bundle sales typically aren't counted in these sales numbers. So counting bundles it's well over 11 million.
I reckon it's 80-90%. Miles Morales was getting a solid 75% skew nearer it's release.
 
That was true when dev cost were low around $20-40 million. you really dont need to spend Avatar's marketing budget to market games. Games have a very niche market still.

They want us to think game dev costs are insanely high nowadays but first party games dont cost that much. In the PS3 era, ND made Uncharted games and TLOU for $20 million each. Lets assume the costs have doubled since. Thats $40 million. Lets assume they have tripled or quadrupled. you are still at $80 million.

GOW3 cost $44 million in 2010. Double it and you are around $90 million. $150 million to make a game in 200-300 person studio is just way too much.

Horzon cost $47 million euros in 2017. And that game was in development for six years. I can promise you that despite the 5 year dev cycle and more devs on the project, it is not even close to costing $100 million. With marketing sure.

Dev costs are that expensive

SSM is like 400 employees in an expensive part of the country

Assuming average spend per employee including benefits, overhead, etc is 150,000 per year (not what they get paid, just total average cost including everything) that’s 4.5 years x 400 employees x 150,000 = 270M

This is insanely high so either my average cost per employee needs a haircut or the number of employees does.

But even reducing it to 100,000 and 250 employees is over 110M

This doesn’t even include all the external costs (partners at other studios).

So yeah, these games do really cost 150-200M and are a lot more expensive than early PS3 era.

This is what Shawn Layden was talking about
 
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Jesus christ...another topic about sales for a PS game, and somehow here we are talking about TLOU2 "flopping".
God of War was always more popular. The first game sold faster than the first TLOU as well.
God of War has been going for nearly 20 years at this point, has a lot of brand recognition and needed a reboot to get the numbers that's getting right now since the IP was stalling before.

TLOU2 sold over 10M copies in a year and half. That's all we know (i don't know where the "2 years" info comes from).

Clearly Sony is happy with TLOU2 numbers since it's betting on the IP in every way possible. And it's working, lmao.
 

Gaiff

Gold Member
Dev costs are that expensive

SSM is like 400 employees in an expensive part of the country

Assuming average spend per employee including benefits, overhead, etc is 150,000 per year (not what they get paid, just total average cost including everything) that’s 4.5 years x 400 employees x 150,000 = 270M

This is insanely high so either my average cost per employee needs a haircut or the number of employees does.

But even reducing it to 100,000 and 250 employees is over 110M

This doesn’t even include all the external costs (partners at other studios).

So yeah, these games do really cost 150-200M and are a lot more expensive than early PS3 era.

This is what Shawn Layden was talking about
Not every employee works full time on the project. $270M production cost sounds very unlikely when Horizon Zero Down from 2017 was only in the $50M ballpark.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Calm down will ya, I think the total budget wouldn't surpass $150m. What titles had a budget of $400m? That sounds ludicrous.
Here’s an article about CP2077, total budget (incl marketing) of $316 million. No, these numbers are quickly becoming the norm and will keep going up as long as the sales ceiling is high. I don’t think Ragnarok’s production values and marketing push was that far behind cp2077 but my guess it’s closer to that number than $150M.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/cd-projekt-refunded-around-30-000-cyberpunk-2077-copies

$150 million total was a big budget game like 10 years ago.
 
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Gaiff

Gold Member
Here’s an article about CP2077, total budget (incl marketing) of $316 million. No, these numbers are quickly becoming the norm and will keep going up as long as the sales ceiling is high. I don’t think Ragnarok’s production values and marketing push was that far behind cp2077 but my guess it’s closer to that number than $150M.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/cd-projekt-refunded-around-30-000-cyberpunk-2077-copies

$150 million total was a big budget game like 10 years ago.
I doubt God of War was anywhere near Cyberpunk in cost. The marketing for Cyberpunk was far bigger, the game is several times the size of GOW with more voice actors, it's open world, got hundreds of intertwining systems and completely dwarfs GOWR in terms of complexity, scope, and scale. Games like Cyberpunk and RDR2 are in a class of their own in terms of budget. There's no reason for GOW to even have a budget half as big.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
It's no surprise that this thread was derailed by people who are still upset over The Last of Us Part II.

If The Last of Us Part II sold over 10 million in 13-14 months, people would still use the numbers of God of War Ragnarok to bash the game.

The Last of Us Part II didn't underperform, you guys are just having a hard time letting go of your hatred. lol
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Dev costs are that expensive

SSM is like 400 employees in an expensive part of the country

Assuming average spend per employee including benefits, overhead, etc is 150,000 per year (not what they get paid, just total average cost including everything) that’s 4.5 years x 400 employees x 150,000 = 270M

This is insanely high so either my average cost per employee needs a haircut or the number of employees does.

But even reducing it to 100,000 and 250 employees is over 110M

This doesn’t even include all the external costs (partners at other studios).

So yeah, these games do really cost 150-200M and are a lot more expensive than early PS3 era.

This is what Shawn Layden was talking about
Thats way too much. $270 million is approaching RDR2 costs which had ALL 7 Rockstar studios and some 3,000 employees working on it for 5 full years. By your math, that game would've cost what? $2 billion?

But neither of us know the true costs thanks to sony no longer revealing game budgets like they did with Uncharted, TLOU, and GOW3, so lets agree to disagree. I just refuse to believe that the same studio that made GOW3 in 2010 with just $44 million is now at $270 million.

Returnal sold 500k copies in the first three months. Thats a 100 person studio and it took them 5 years to make the game. By your math, it shouldve cost $75 million. It made $35 million and Sony considered it a success. They literally bought the studio. Come on. The budget for that game was probably 10-20 million max.
 

Jaybe

Member
Exclusive single player game with insane production values. Ultra polished and refined since launch. No mtx, no dlc, no bloat, no bullshit. Deserved outcome.

The industry needs more of this.
Yeah, I wish we had more of this. Any time a developer mentions planned DLC, I think ‘wait for the complete edition’. I’d rather know I’m buying the complete package outright, and that’s got to help sales even just a bit.
 
Thats way too much. $270 million is approaching RDR2 costs which had ALL 7 Rockstar studios and some 3,000 employees working on it for 5 full years. By your math, that game would've cost what? $2 billion?

But neither of us know the true costs thanks to sony no longer revealing game budgets like they did with Uncharted, TLOU, and GOW3, so lets agree to disagree. I just refuse to believe that the same studio that made GOW3 in 2010 with just $44 million is now at $270 million.

Returnal sold 500k copies in the first three months. Thats a 100 person studio and it took them 5 years to make the game. By your math, it shouldve cost $75 million. It made $35 million and Sony considered it a success. They literally bought the studio. Come on. The budget for that game was probably 10-20 million max.

GOW3 isn’t in the same Galaxy of effort compared to GoW:R

One is a 7 hour game the other is 60+ hours worth of content

Returnal probably did cost 50-75M

The bottom line is Ragnarok cost bare minimum 150M
 
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Gaiff

Gold Member
GOW3 isn’t in the same Galaxy of effort compared to GoW:R

One is a 7 hour game the other is 60+ hours worth of content

Returnal probably did cost 50-75M

The bottom line is Ragnarok cost bare minimum 150M
With marketing, sure. For just production? Unlikely. A production cost between $80-100 sounds plausible. With another $100M for marketing. Total plus marketing might be $150M-200M.
 
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AmuroChan

Member
I doubt God of War was anywhere near Cyberpunk in cost. The marketing for Cyberpunk was far bigger, the game is several times the size of GOW with more voice actors, it's open world, got hundreds of intertwining systems and completely dwarfs GOWR in terms of complexity, scope, and scale. Games like Cyberpunk and RDR2 are in a class of their own in terms of budget. There's no reason for GOW to even have a budget half as big.

Here’s an article about CP2077, total budget (incl marketing) of $316 million. No, these numbers are quickly becoming the norm and will keep going up as long as the sales ceiling is high. I don’t think Ragnarok’s production values and marketing push was that far behind cp2077 but my guess it’s closer to that number than $150M.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/cd-projekt-refunded-around-30-000-cyberpunk-2077-copies

$150 million total was a big budget game like 10 years ago.

Well, the reason would be that one game is made in Santa Monica, CA and one is made in Poland. It's the same reason why Callisto Protocol, a linear 10 hour game with a modest 3 year dev cycle, costs $162m to make. Their studio is in CA. The location of these studios is a major factor in the budgets of their games.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Always fun to see these salty boys who still can't get over TLOU 2 ❤️
TLOU2 was my GOTY and i love the franchise, but it's silly to stick your head in the sand and pretend that a game that sold 4 million in 3 days and topped out at 9 million after 2 years did not underperform. Ragnorak is showing how to take an insane opening weekend and then explode into 11 million sales in just under 3 months. TLOU2 almost flatlined in comparison.

I really dont understand why we cant simply talk about this stuff without being labeled concern trolls or salty. This is a 37 million selling franchise. It's huge. The fact that the sequel sold just under 9 million is something that bears pointing out at the very least.

I really hope Neil and ND dont ignore all the concerns people had with the game. There are real issues with the narrative structure and the lack of likeable characters. If they are going to ignore user reviews on metacritic as troll reviews, and ignore the lack of legs in sales then they are going to continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

And I say this as a die-hard MGS fan who disliked then loved MGS2 but was sad to see Snake Eater sell well below what MGS2 did despite being a much better game. Backlashes do hurt these games.
 
TLOU2 was my GOTY and i love the franchise, but it's silly to stick your head in the sand and pretend that a game that sold 4 million in 3 days and topped out at 9 million after 2 years did not underperform. Ragnorak is showing how to take an insane opening weekend and then explode into 11 million sales in just under 3 months. TLOU2 almost flatlined in comparison.

I really dont understand why we cant simply talk about this stuff without being labeled concern trolls or salty. This is a 37 million selling franchise. It's huge. The fact that the sequel sold just under 9 million is something that bears pointing out at the very least.

I really hope Neil and ND dont ignore all the concerns people had with the game. There are real issues with the narrative structure and the lack of likeable characters. If they are going to ignore user reviews on metacritic as troll reviews, and ignore the lack of legs in sales then they are going to continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

And I say this as a die-hard MGS fan who disliked then loved MGS2 but was sad to see Snake Eater sell well below what MGS2 did despite being a much better game. Backlashes do hurt these games.

I think it also helped that GoWR released during the holiday period

Sony should do that with more of their high end blockbusters
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Thats way too much. $270 million is approaching RDR2 costs which had ALL 7 Rockstar studios and some 3,000 employees working on it for 5 full years. By your math, that game would've cost what? $2 billion?

But neither of us know the true costs thanks to sony no longer revealing game budgets like they did with Uncharted, TLOU, and GOW3, so lets agree to disagree. I just refuse to believe that the same studio that made GOW3 in 2010 with just $44 million is now at $270 million.

Returnal sold 500k copies in the first three months. Thats a 100 person studio and it took them 5 years to make the game. By your math, it shouldve cost $75 million. It made $35 million and Sony considered it a success. They literally bought the studio. Come on. The budget for that game was probably 10-20 million max.
lol $10 million was the budget for Metal Gear Solid 2 in 2001. I don’t think a lot of people understand how expensive it is to employ these giant teams and build huge games with tons of content, high quality voice acting, cinematics that look movie quality, tons of testing and iteration over years, and put in a massive marketing push behind them. These games are really really REALLY big business, it’s not 1997 anymore, it stands to reason the budget is going to go up to match. The cost to so business is high and the sales numbers for hit games justify those expenses.

In fact the cost to do business is so damn high that I even think “AAA” studios are struggling to deal with it. Only a select few can actually make a game like Ragnarok these days.
 

mrmustard

Banned
Does anyone know how many PS4 copies they sold? Would be interesting to know how welll the crossgen releases worked.
The Last of Us was bundled for years, and there's no doubt that without the God of war bundles, it would still be under 10 million. To show you how much of a factor the bundled played a part in The Last of Us sales, The Last of Us Part II surpassed The PS4 remaster version in less than 3 weeks on the NPD chats, and the game sold over 12 million copies on that platform.
I really wonder how many God of War bundles they sold. I have not seen a single non bundled PS5 in November and December.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
TLOu2 really did a number on the simple folk. Massive success on that metric alone.

Anyway God of War is a mega franchise now.
There's no putting this one on ice. Expand to a new location and have that bad boi out by the end of this gen/start of next-gen!
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
TLOU2 was my GOTY and i love the franchise, but it's silly to stick your head in the sand and pretend that a game that sold 4 million in 3 days and topped out at 9 million after 2 years did not underperform. Ragnorak is showing how to take an insane opening weekend and then explode into 11 million sales in just under 3 months. TLOU2 almost flatlined in comparison.

I really dont understand why we cant simply talk about this stuff without being labeled concern trolls or salty. This is a 37 million selling franchise. It's huge. The fact that the sequel sold just under 9 million is something that bears pointing out at the very least.

I really hope Neil and ND dont ignore all the concerns people had with the game. There are real issues with the narrative structure and the lack of likeable characters. If they are going to ignore user reviews on metacritic as troll reviews, and ignore the lack of legs in sales then they are going to continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

And I say this as a die-hard MGS fan who disliked then loved MGS2 but was sad to see Snake Eater sell well below what MGS2 did despite being a much better game. Backlashes do hurt these games.
TLOU 2 was over 10 million. And it continues to chart. It didn’t top at 9 million.

Unfair to compare with God of War, which is a long-running franchise since PS2 era with more than 6 games.

And TLOU 2 is tracking at a higher pace than TLOU 1.
 

Dolodolo

Member
Some of you can go on attacking Tlou 2 all they want, but that won't change the fact that Naughty Dog's next single player game will have the biggest production budget ever, as usual.
Live with it
 
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