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Ex Naughty Dog/Rocksteady dev wish "PS6 and Xbox Project Helix never steps foot into this decade"
Mr.Phoenix
Member
No, quality always trumps quantity. It's just that quality is harder to pull off, so devs ensure some quality, but throw in a lot of quantity. And the development environment is not the hardware; it's the developers and in part, their region. Its the very reason why you can have a team like Insomniac releasing 4 games in 6 years, and another like ND releasing 1 game in 7 years. Yet both devs are working on the same hardware.
Or you can have a team make CO:E33 for under $20M, and another make FF16 for $70M, and another make Elden Ring for $200M. Again, same hardware. And before you deflect and say, well they are only making games that expensive because they are trying to take advantage of the hardware... Metroid Prime for the Switch 2... something barely as powerful as the PS4... cost $100M to make.
None of that proves a hardware problem; it's a content and management problem.
I addressed that, so yes, devs have to do "more" work for lighting. But what is making them do more work: PT, which takes significantly less time to implement, or Raster, which takes a shit ton of time? And should they then ignore something that makes their games better simply because not everyone has the hardware to run it? Do you realize you are speaking against something that has defined gaming since its inception? Its like hardware comes along that actually makes the work easier for devs, and you are suggesting they don't use it and instead focus on the one that takes up more time and in turn, more money.
The value to the end product is not debatable; it's clear and there for all to see. But more importantly, its the value to the devs; if you want game dev costs to drop, then you want a world where devs are making their games targeting only hardware that can support PT.
And the rez argument isn't even worth having; haven't you look at hardware development in the last 15 years? Some context: the Nvidia 70 series cards improved in performance by only 50% over gens spanning 5 years. Its harder and harder to improve performance. To the point where not using AI upscaling doesn't mean you are a good dev; it means you are stupid and irresponsible. have any idea how much power using AI saves up for other and more relevant IQ effects than resolution?
Yet you are advocating for devs to squander 40% of their render budget on something you won't even notice unless you take a screenshot and zoom in by 300%.
The tech isnt escalating prices; the market is. And what sony or Xbox are to do, is find ways to adjust. If that means making a PS5pro refresh that is smaller and called the PS6 lite, or making a handheld PS6 that both can be sold at $500... or just continuing support for their current gen well into the life of their next gen hardware... then that's what they do.
What you don't do is not try and push and innovate on tech; if we did that, everyone would become Nintendo or mobile phones.
Boss Mog
Member
You realize that people are buying the Steam Machine for over $1000 and it's a piece of crap, the base PS5 is better, so people will have no problem paying $1000 for a cutting edge PS6.
Console players today are mostly in their 30s, 40s and 50s. Those are the age groups with the most disposable income. They will pay $1000 for their hobby. There are plenty of hobbies that cost WAY more. Also there's no need to chase kids with a lower price because kids today don't care about home consoles.
it's not like releasing the PS6 in 2027 will kill the PS5, cross-gen will be a thing for 3-4 years. So for those who can't afford a PS6, they can get a PS5 or keep using it, if they already have one.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That's the takeaway in all of this.
CoreyFlawless
Member
Crazy how, 15 years ago, the western devs was making fun and telling the eastern devs how slow and how bad there devs teams and tech was. Now it just the west devs just can't make any fun games. They great with the tech. But there writing and gameplay just sucks ass
As we can clearly see in the western developer landscape right now when we directly compare it to the output and budgets of f.e. asian developers the issue is tooootally the hardware and not the teams or the management.
200m+ pure development budget for stuff like Concord or Marathon, even more for an asset roulette like Spider Man 2.........
ShadyAcshuns
Gold Member
I just don't see a mainstream audience for an expensive PS6 when PS5 already exists. I can't imagine Sony being happy with Steam Deck levels of sales for PS6 in 2027.
ResilientBanana
Member
He's saying exactly what I've been saying. More horse power equates to lazier developers. The beauty of 90's era gaming was the limitations of what was possible and was the era that created all of the franchises we play today. Except now, all those franchises are getting milked beyond recognition.
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Paulistano
Member
Switch is underpowered and I don't see any graphical marvel there you can argue that you like the artistical direction but a pearl of incomparable beauty? none.
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Well, that's exactly the problem. There is NO choice. Prices will stay high and rise into the 2030s, nobody knows how high and for how long. And that is exactly UNwise to wait with the release.
It's funny to me that this simple fact is so difficult to comprehend for most.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Here's the plain reality:
With every console generation, team head-counts have increased across the board. Dev cycles have extended, and production cost has ballooned.
This is absolute, unassailable fact, and shows a clear and undeniable correlation between tech advancement and overall expense incurred in putting a product on the market.
And its extremely obvious why this is the case. Its about granularity.
The new hardware is sold on the premise it facilitates things that the previous generation hardware could not do.
Hence it becomes a commercial imperative for it to justify itself, it needs to be *MORE*.
That could be more resolution, framerate, scope, detail, mechanical depth... all kinds of stuff that can be umbrella termed as being granular as that communicates that ultimately its about all the additional details being added into a familiar (product) picture.
All those extra granular detail add time-cost, because it needs designing, implementing and debugging. So when the premise of the new tech is that it allows you to see (for example) pores in your player-character's skin, all this micro-detail that shows what hardware is capable of, the causal link is exceedingly obvious.
What many people seem to fail to grasp is that a lot of these micro-details have, at best, minor novelty value. From a gameplay/entertainment perspective they are mostly worthless, and that maybe increased "immersion" could be attained artfully, rather than using the blunt instrument of computational grunt.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
As long as new tech launches in pc gaming space, new console tech will follow no matter what
Sadly.....this is the truth. There's just no way around it.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
But this is a reductive argument, won't you say?
What you are saying is how or what gaming has always been. From sprites to 3d, to PBR, to RT and AI reconstruction.... games have ALWAYS gotten better. And yes the teams get bigger, because you "need" more people to make what is a modern game. Eg. take a look at link or Metal Gear on the Nes... and look at their counterparts on the Switch 2 or PS4. Gone are the times when you could make a game with a team of 10 people. But that's just the nature of the industry.
There are ways around this, and it comes down to better management or smarter design, but you honestly cant say that this is the hardware's fault. Because, as I explained already, some would find better ways to use it than others.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
You keep arguing this, but where's your evidence ?
The argument you are making is basically the whole industry is "doing it wrong" and under some hypothetical new paradigm it'd be much better.
To which the obvious retort is, why isn't anyone doing this now, and as a result becoming industry leaders in the process ?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
But I already gave you the evidence. I listed out games from the very same console hardware generations and even in similar genres with vastly different development budgets. And I didn't ever say EVERYONE Is doing it wrong; I literally listed out devs or studios that are doing it right.
Your argument is that costs are climbing because devs are trying to maximize hardware... mine is that costs are climbing because a lot of developers are doing shit wrong, not all of them, but a good number of them. And I gave you examples of exactly what I mean. You can't say the problem is the hardware when I can show you 5 different devs that make five games of equivalent length and level of detail but all arrive at those results with vastly different development costs and time.
And even if there were only one, the fact that one exists is proof that there is a better way of doing these things. Hell take Capcom for instance; they have released around 15 games, full titles, remakes...etc on the PS5 between 2020 and now. And their AAA budgets per title is estimated at being between $40- $100. And most of those titles are using things like RT. So how do you explain that away?
viveks86
Member
This should have ended the thread. Underrated post.As long as new tech launches in pc gaming space, new console tech will follow no matter what
Bojji
Member
Metro devs (and others) already talked about benefits of RT. Baking up the lighting in one room:
30 minutes vs. 0 seconds and results of RT looks better, then when you want to change something in that room (adding/removing furniture) you need to redo the process.
RT/PT plus smart use of Ai should massively reduce development times for native PS6 games. Last gen consoles will serve as a fucking anchor for cross gen titles, devs will still have to do some kind of raster lighting...
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viveks86
Member
But don't you want 400 side missions, fully level designed with story tidbits, meaningless upgrades and voice acting so that you can get lost in the game for 100+ hours? Monthly as well as annual DLC so you just stop playing other games altogether?
viveks86
Member
Unless everyone figures out some kind of RTGI solution for their engines. Software or hardware. So far we know the following are ready to lift the anchor when next gen begins:
1) UE5/6 titles
2) Glacier
3) id Tech
4) Anvil
5) Snowdrop (likely)
6) Rage
7) 4A
Potential candidates that will likely be ready by the time next gen is out, given their present output:
1) SSM
2) ND
3) SP
I think Frostbite is still behind with no signs of getting there yet. The rest will likely be more than capable of supporting cross gen without baking.
Given the direction of travel for all these engines, the baking anchor may not last very long, even during the cross gen period.
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kevboard
Gold Member
I want Hollywood actors mocapping a funny chungus cube companion! how else am I supposed to be immersed in a game?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Metro devs (and others) already talked about benefits of RT. Baking up the lighting in one room:
30 minutes vs. 0 seconds and results of RT looks better, then when you want to change something in that room (adding/removing furniture) you need to redo the process.
RT/PT plus smart use of Ai should massively reduce development times for native PS6 games. Last gen consoles will serve as a fucking anchor for cross gen titles, devs will still have to do some kind of raster lighting...
Exactly... and thanks for that. And some would have you believe the hardware is the problem. If they have their way, not only should we just stick to baked lighting... but we should start scrapping stuff like shadows and AO within that to save time.
The hardware allows you do something in 0mins vs an alternative which would take devs 30mins. And yet some still believe better hardware is the problem? Wild.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Problem is some studios focus on production values.
So those studios will always feel the pinch trying to up the ante with better visuals, animation, cut scenes etc... That's what they are known for and that's the kind of game designers who work there.
A lot of the most popular games looks good, but they arent necessarily AAA best graphics. But they got a good gameplay loop people come back to. Indie games are on a whole other level as many can look like 90s retro games but sell a ton.
So those studios will always feel the pinch trying to up the ante with better visuals, animation, cut scenes etc... That's what they are known for and that's the kind of game designers who work there.
A lot of the most popular games looks good, but they arent necessarily AAA best graphics. But they got a good gameplay loop people come back to. Indie games are on a whole other level as many can look like 90s retro games but sell a ton.
MayauMiao
Member
They go to conference, talk about how to screw gamers with more microtransaction, then go out scream like kids when things don't go their way.
cafecat
Member
Next gen is totally iteration of development pipeline: (1) full use of hardware supported RTGI and Path tracing , faster and better result in lighting and visuals (2) full feature set of ML graphic technologies (3) support of AI NPC, neural compression, neural texture.
The problem is under current market situation, it will cost at least $1000. Also the next fewer years will be winter for all consumer electronic using RAM (upto 200%+) and storage (all storage format price rise x2~x3)
For Sony and Microsoft, problems are:
In a word, a gen of hardware is a set of new tools, next gen PS6/XBOX is totally different in defining development pipeline and provide new tool for game design, and these developers can not adopt to new pipeline need find their own way
- use less time and cost to achive better graphics (for example: need developers especially artist know how to design under full RT, baken lighting is costy in both time and money comparing to hardware supported RT)
- optimize the game use full ML graphic technologies
- less game install size (use neural compression, game size will decrease a lot, a software way to deal current storage price)
- next gen unified SDK to support all hardware: from handheld to home console, all can access the next gen features set
The problem is under current market situation, it will cost at least $1000. Also the next fewer years will be winter for all consumer electronic using RAM (upto 200%+) and storage (all storage format price rise x2~x3)
For Sony and Microsoft, problems are:
- millions of are already invested in, soc tape-out last year, specs are set (UDNA+ZEN6), TSMC contract and soc manufacuture set in 2027, delay = resign at high price or can't resign consider the demanding TSMC faces.
- The RAM and Storage price is not return to what it was in 2025 or decrease a lot in next 2~3 years.
- There are still 10%~15% of PlayStation user base willing to upgrade to next gen (unkown for XBOX), they could decrease the price in the future if the component price situation become better
In a word, a gen of hardware is a set of new tools, next gen PS6/XBOX is totally different in defining development pipeline and provide new tool for game design, and these developers can not adopt to new pipeline need find their own way
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OuterLimits
Member
The whole point of the console industry was releasing more affordable systems that would be appealing to the masses though. Historically the niche crowd that had the cash and cared most about graphics, fps, etc, went with PC.
The console gaming industry will implode if most people are priced out and the PS6 struggles to even sell 40 million lifetime.
Hell, the "Early adopter fee" may even be extinct as this generation has proven with prices increasing after launch.
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DenchDeckard
Banned
Id buy a 2 grand console if the tech warranted it. But, I'm not normal.
Fess
Member
I don't get it. Why is $1000 this invisible line for consoles that can't be crossed?
How much do you pay for your phone? Or your PC? Or car? Probably more than $1000.
If you can spend several hours a day using something that brings something worthwhile to your life then why limit yourself so it can only cost $1000?
Besides, if $1000+ is the price then what's the alternative? Keep playing on current gen consoles even after they stop doing cross-generation ports?
nush
Gold Member
That's why everyone sleeps In $1000 beds.
Justin9mm
Member
Times have changed, we are in a different world with the price and availability of tech, it's no longer viable to make a $500 console that's worth a damn to play AAA games.
Years ago, it was PC vs Console, one was for elitists and the other for the casual/family etc. The gap between the two is so much closer now, this is no longer the way people purchase, its PC max performance vs Console convenience / brand loyalty.
Expecting a current gen console to perform like the Pro or better for $500 is ridiculous.
Fess
Member
I'd say that you're perfectly normal, among enthusiasts.
For me there is almost no upper limit, until I simply can't afford it. Gaming is one of my biggest hobbies so I don't see why I would limit myself to a hw cost of $1000.
The only thing holding me back on console gaming is the knowledge how little I might use the thing. I'm not completely unhinged on wasting money, what am I actually paying for?
If 99% of all games are on PC, if I have a PC plugged into the TV, if I use controllers and a console-like UI …
- Do I even need consoles?
Fess
Member
Oh there are many that do that, and pay much much more than that, and have a modern OLED TV, new iPhone, freaking jewelry and handbags and shoes or whatever, hightech stuff for the house like a modern stove or fridge with some wifi functionality nobody need, or a big ass lawnmower for their tiny yard, nice looking rims or tires for their car, or the car itself, etc. And they barely even think about it. It's the cost of life. Or something. They just load up their credit card and go on with their lives.
There are so many things in life people spend over $1000 for without blinking.
But gaming devices somehow can't cost that much, then nobody would buy it, supposedly.
nush
Gold Member
Consoles work on the razor blade model, sell the handle cheap and make bank on the blades.
If the console is too expensive you won't get mass market adoption, and will sell less games that need to now sell more because they are so expensive do develop. But the high cost of entry has gimped the mass market and breaks the console model.
Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
Yeah, I'll also spend hours:
In my apartment ($500 rent)
By my computer table ($300)
On my computer chair ($150)
On my phone ($300)
It's a strange logic to have.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
You see, you are completely right. But for one little issue, and is what it seems people are just refusing to accept.
The console industry hasn't or didn't, change. The world around it did.
The console industry is still operating on that same principle, of releasing the most affordable gaming systems. But what happens when instead of component prices coming down over time, they instead go up? The PS5, should be a $300 console by now after almost 6 years of being on the market, but instead its a $600. And mind you, that's the mass-market console price point now. That's the cheapest they can make the damn thing.
Something has to change, but we effectively cannot say they should make consoles that do not exceed $400/$500 anymore, cause if they did that, we end up with something even less powerful than the PS5.
Major Insano
Gold Member
The thing is though, that full fat experience has taken thousands of people 15 years, and $2bn, to make.Personally prefer full fat experience here, to each their own, even if i have to pay nasty premium for it
Give the same time and resources to a dev like Capcom, and you could have 10 good games to play instead of one.
(And before anyone takes the 'quality over quantity' angle. GTA is not that game.)
PeteBull
Member
I think we got room for both, wish all the best to capcom obviously, they are smashing it big time this gen and thats before we even saw dmc6 which is defo being made with how well dmc5 sold
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
It really doesn't have to. PC gamers don't need 5090s or DLSS5 or any of that other slop, let alone console gamers. Let Nvidia keep pushing their graphical boundaries if they like but we reached diminishing returns in 2013As long as new tech launches in pc gaming space, new console tech will follow no matter what
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Asian developers regularly release their games for switch and switch 2.
As we can clearly see in the western developer landscape right now when we directly compare it to the output and budgets of f.e. asian developers the issue is tooootally the hardware and not the teams or the management.
200m+ pure development budget for stuff like Concord or Marathon, even more for an asset roulette like Spider Man 2.........
They're connected. A more lean operation doesn't need the latest graphical processors. The main reason devices like the PS5 Pro and Switch 2 happened was to subsidize poor optimization and Unreal Engine 5
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
What's the point of releasing a switch 3 then?
You're right though. If Asian games are the best to come out (an opinion I certainly share) then we don't really need more than a Switch 2 seeing as how everyone on that side of the world is making their games for Switch 2, and they still look gorgeous anyways.
PeteBull
Member
Orly?
gta5 launched sept 2013, to be even more generous thats ps4 version, 1080p30, from nov 2014:
VS
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Which leads to more unoptimized games that eventually push past what the hardware's capable of, which means you need another new system which costs 2000 dollars, etc like it's stupid.
Stop letting lazy devs off the hook and stop letting corporations set wild deadlines that forces rushed and subpar work.
GTA5 was meant to run on hardware from 2005 Red dead redemption 2 is running on hardware from 2013. Difference is night and day.
GTA6 meanwhile doesn't demonstrate nearly as big a jump from RDR2 as that game did from GTA5.
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Are you saying a PC is going to have a bigger jump then gta 5 to gta 6 is?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't get people when it comes to stuff like this. Like, how can't you see it? I mean, let's forget about dlss5, being that it's just a by product of GPUs having matrix cores now for Ai processing. But on that? Matric Cores? PCs and consoles definitely need that.
And this is what I don't get. We didn't need 3d engines until we needed them. We didn't need texture mapping units, or shaders...etc. Until we needed them. And that's no different from matrix cores. In the same way TMUs came along as a better way to manage and render textures, is the same way RT cores are here now as a better way to manage and handle all game lighting. And matrix cores are a better way to allow better utilization of a GPU by not wasting all of ur budget rendering a higher rez.
And while I dully agree on the diminishing returns thing, hell I even advocate on it... Haven gotten there doesn't mean there isn't a lot more improvements that can be made. We just happen to be at a point now where to get that extra 5 or 10% here or there... You need to pour in 100% more resources. Better hardware, if used right. Can and should make that push easier.
If anything the issue is that devs are taking that better hardware, and using it as a buffer for incompetent and lazy work ethics. Like how people say things like " the ps5/xbsx CPU is crap, but fail to see that at any given time only like 2-3 of their availa 14/15 logic cores are being utilized at anything above 50% with the rest running at under 15% utilization.
And thats what PC allows. Those that seek an additional 5 or 10% can pour in hundreds or thousands more into their gpu purchase.
But you'd have to be nuts to think the console market supports that. Its hard enough to get people to upgrade from ps4 to ps5 and you are saying people will leave for pc if ps6 is delayed. Ps owners can switch to PC ir upgrade their existing at any time with or without a ps6.
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Bojji
Member
Difference between 2013 games and 2026 games is like night and day but some bling people will tell you that industry peaked 13 years ago...
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PeteBull
Member
Im saying we are still extremly far from where we wanna be, not to mention previous claim about 2013 dimnishing returs is total bogus xD
PeteBull
Member
With that logic everything from pong and then tetris onwards is just dimnishing returns
Of course. Rockstar is going from targeting ps3/360 spec to ps5. It's a vast improvement. But whats coming in pc gpu space that requires a ps6? Let's see what the price of next gen gpus ends up being with ai bubble still not popped first.