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“Run to the boss” is a really boring design

Keihart

Member
Just wanted to say I hate when any game does this, be Souls or any other game. I feel like it’s just padding the game length by making you face the same challenges over and over to get to the boss, it’s really frustrating and adds nothing, really, to the game.
It’s pretty telling that DS1 and BB had shortcuts close to the bosses, and that DS3 has bonfires close to the bosses, ultimately they realized this is boring af. I hope Elden Ring preserve this. Once you conquered the level, there’s no need to force us to “run to the boss”.
I was going to agree but your tittle doesn't really reflect the OP.
I actually don't like "run to the boss" but i enjoy games with good enough mechanics to justify mastering the levels, there are so many games that waste their combat by funneling you in to the end without time to stop and have fun learning the nuances.

Souls games are actually more about exploration than combat to me, so the shortcuts make sense there to me, there are very few actually hard bosses in the whole franchise and the bulk of the fun is surviving and exploring the areas to me.
 

Thief1987

Member
In Demon's Souls the challenge is often the level itself, not the boss. That's why this mechanic makes sense in that game. The boss is just last opportunity for you to choke and fail.

As the games have focused more on challenging boss fights they've phased out this mechanic
Levels are challenge only before you reached the boss, when you are exploring them, fight all enemies, searching for shortcuts etc. After that it's just tedious runs past all enemies straight to the boss. It's just waste of time that gives nothing beside irritation.
 

skit_data

Member
Having completed that recently, that boss run (the last mindflayer in particular) helped me for three reasons:

1. It taught you that you had to equip the Thief Ring before the boss.

2. It forced you to have a really good range weapon.

3. It exposes under-powered weapons/under levelling.

In my case, the first couple of times, the run seemed like hell and maneater x 2 was impossible. After equipping thief ring and powering up my compound longbow/levelling up my health/stamina, the run was trivial and the boss fight do-able.
I think the biggest difference is what build you use. I went for a full on magic build and platinumed the game using only that build, leaving my magic defense pretty low. It’s really ass in NG+2 because they have so much HP that ranged combat barely makes a dent and you run the risk of getting shot if they fire out of sync (which they do pretty often). I usually just two handed my crescent uchigatana and ran up to them using heavy attacks to stunlock them while dodgerolling their ranged attacks.

Edit: The good thing about that build is that you can basically oneshot each maneater with Firestorm xD So once you’re past the Mindflayer its smooth sailing!
 
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Majukun

Member
while i prefer my checkoints as close as possible to the boss, in the first dark souls part of the game is momorizing enemy positioning and find way to avoid them, in a way not dissimiliar from the zombies in old resident evils (that also were careful about where to position each enemy)

in short, if there is a way to run to the boss avoiding enemies in a safe way, that also count as gameplay, and can be pretty satisfying in games that make conquering the environment layout and mastering part of the gameplay
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
I dunno. I think there's been something lost in the age of autosaves and checkpoints. There are some boss fights that even have checkpoints after a phase. Like...what's the point of even having a boss fight, then?
 

PhaseJump

Banned
OP dealing with the ire of Soul's fans:

Run Away Nuclear Bomb GIF by Identity

OP is swift enough to handle it.

fozzie-bear-wow.gif
 

K2D

Banned
u86uhvR.gif


II would like to take this opportunity to say that Demon's Souls has some of Soulsborne's worst boss walks/runs ever conceptualized..!

I hate the fact that I like this game.

Edit: Gif from Dark Souls, as a means of illustration only
 
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Honey Bunny

Member
It’s an archaic mechanic with the purpose of padding the game and making the player frustrated.
You could say this about any arbitrary difficulty increasing mechanic in the Souls games. That's why the games were so special when they first hit.
 
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Raven117

Gold Member
Depends on how you design the boss.

I’m demons, the bosses were not as difficult as later games. Accordingly, the punishment of running the level again made more sense as it drew out the tension.

Once the bosses got harder…. It was just too punitive
 

Fbh

Member
Yeah I love the Souls games but I kinda agree.

It doesn't bother me too much but it's one of those mechanics which never added much to the games IMO.

Still better than unskilpable cutscenes before a boss though.
 

Bakkus

Member
The souls games have a lot of qualities to them, but if you defend this, then we differ a lot in what we want from games.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Just wanted to say I hate when any game does this, be Souls or any other game. I feel like it’s just padding the game length by making you face the same challenges over and over to get to the boss, it’s really frustrating and adds nothing, really, to the game.
It’s pretty telling that DS1 and BB had shortcuts close to the bosses, and that DS3 has bonfires close to the bosses, ultimately they realized this is boring af. I hope Elden Ring preserve this. Once you conquered the level, there’s no need to force us to “run to the boss”.

This premise is flawed. The idea that a lack of quality-of-life niceities was not only a conscious design decision, but one made to inflate the length of a Souls game is absurd. Demon's Souls had shortcuts as a REWARD for completing the path to a boss. So now, instead of having to redo that entire section, you simply can navigate through a shorter section (if it's not right next to a fog door).

. . .as for ER, you would expect the things that work for largely LINEAR games to not be so great for non-LINEAR, open world games (money says the Legacy Dungeons have the exact same bonfire/shortcut design from previous games).
 

Swift_Star

Banned
What a load of crap. You have time to think or it could drive up your anger. It might compel ppl to chill and think, before dying again. While you run you can reevaluate things. Ofc fullly retarded people need to die 110 times the same way and whine about "running back".
I don’t get angry at losing to bosses, I’m not 5. And I train while fighting, there’s no need to think about anything, this isn’t the SATs. Get a grip, there’s no need to get angry.
 
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Swift_Star

Banned
This premise is flawed. The idea that a lack of quality-of-life niceities was not only a conscious design decision, but one made to inflate the length of a Souls game is absurd. Demon's Souls had shortcuts as a REWARD for completing the path to a boss. So now, instead of having to redo that entire section, you simply can navigate through a shorter section (if it's not right next to a fog door).

. . .as for ER, you would expect the things that work for largely LINEAR games to not be so great for non-LINEAR, open world games (money says the Legacy Dungeons have the exact same bonfire/shortcut design from previous games).
Demon’s barely has shortcuts so you’re wrong.
 

Swift_Star

Banned
You could say this about any arbitrary difficulty increasing mechanic in the Souls games. That's why the games were so special when they first hit.
There are a few things that I think are cheap in souls:
the curse mechanic from 1
The crystal caves (really bad level overall)
The final area with the narrow walkways and the red knights
Everything else is fair game.
I have to say, although 3 is not as interconnected as 1, it’s way more fully realized and fair.
1 has a really bad and unfinished second half.
 

V4skunk

Banned
How? I am not practising any of these things when just running to the boss.

I don't mind a game forcing me to fight enemies I ve already defeated (Within reason I am not playing a perma death game anytime soon).

I don't like a game forcing me to do boring stuff completely unrelated to the challenge I am trying to overcome.
Because running to the boss because you already killed the baddies once isn't really gitting gud.
You are only posting here after being filtered by a boss and seething about coping to run through some monsters.
 

Tschumi

Member
I dunno.. i agree with Op.. i prefer just having runs at the boss.. lady butterfly was fine, tower knight was annoying
 

yansolo

Member
i always assumed the run back to the boss in souls games was done on purpose to frustrate the player, but yeh i agree just have a bonfire at the boss
 

ckaneo

Member
From Software has been trying to decrease this, including in Elden Ring.

What's dumb is the games that copy it like Fallen Order or hollow Knight. It's a trash mechanic.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I rather have bonfires close to the boss. It doesn't make the game less good.
Having completed that recently, that boss run (the last mindflayer in particular) helped me for three reasons:

1. It taught you that you had to equip the Thief Ring before the boss.

2. It forced you to have a really good range weapon.

3. It exposes under-powered weapons/under levelling.

In my case, the first couple of times, the run seemed like hell and maneater x 2 was impossible. After equipping thief ring and powering up my compound longbow/levelling up my health/stamina, the run was trivial and the boss fight do-able.

Which isn't a good thing since it kind of forces you towards a build you might not want, and I usually didn't want to use thief ring much outside the swamp either. A decent bow is never a bad backup weapon, But those flayers on those small stairs are just bullshit design.
 

Kagoshima_Luke

Gold Member
It’s punishment for losing. I definitely feel more focused and intense when making a good run back to the boss in DeS, full well knowing that I have to do the whole run again if I die.

It’s like playing poker with real vs fake money. Starting back at the boss is like using fake money; just use whatever strategy and see if it sticks or for a laugh. What does it matter? Nothing to lose.
 

TonyK

Member
In fact, even if I adore Miyazaki games, that is what I dislike more of their games. In general, in any game, I hate bosses because they don't have instant repetition. All the time between dying in a boss and starting the fight again is a total waste of time for me.
 

tusharngf

Member
castlevania games punish people if you try to escape without killing anyone. Aria of sorrow has some sections where you can skip most parts.
 
Most time it’s just a chore. In DS3, before the tree boss (forgot its name) there’s nothing to learn really. You just run from the sewer rats, the dogs and the fat magician. What’s to learn? To run? It adds 100% nothing to the game.
There's an extra bonfire right next to the door there. Takes maybe 5 seconds to run to the boss door
 
I guess no one in this thread likes roguelikes either. Worrying about relatively short runs to a Souls boss vs starting your entire game over lol
 

zcaa0g

Banned
My advice is have a life, enjoy the game until you no longer enjoy it, and then watch the poorly designed or overly long final boss fight on YouTube by a person that has way too much time on their hands and be done with it.

That's exactly what I did this past weekend with Dying Light 2 and I don't regret it one bit. Get off my lawn and I'm too old for this shit, etc.
 
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I guess no one in this thread likes roguelikes either. Worrying about relatively short runs to a Souls boss vs starting your entire game over lol
Nothing wrong with that if the game is committing to it. My issue is souls like games are being wishy washy about it and are pushing the player into a boring situation.

I think the minimal checkpoints works brilliantly when exploring the level. The challenge is to explore the level without dying while picking up loot and opening shortcuts etc to make your life easier the next time. Loot only needs to be found once as does defeating hard enemies or mini bosses so you don't have to explore the whole area every time. Obviously discovering shortcuts and secret bonfires are very satisfying and make the level even more manageable.

The issue starts when you find a boss fight. You have likely already beaten the area and are now just pressing up for however long the level designer decided on his coffee break just to get back to the fun bit.

Some have argued that this is too create tension or maybe get the player to stop and think. Well if that's the case this a terrible way to do it and we should demand more of from and others to make it more fun. Here's a few ways I can think of

Encourage the player to kill the mob enemies along the way. E.g. by giving power ups or consumables.

Just force the player to kill the mobs. Nothing wrong this but commit it FROM you pussies! Don't allow the player to run past.

Just make the boss harder or give it more health. I would rather spend 10 minutes fighting and learning how to defeat boss than 5 minutes running to the boss and 5 minutes fighting it. Anyone who's prefers the latter must be on drugs.
 

iorek21

Member
It was a cool concept in the first 3 games that attempted this, but now it's becoming boring and unnecessary in most cases. Take Hollow Knight and Nioh, for example, there was no real need for that; Fallen Order also does this.

Even FROM let it go in Sekiro, I see no reason for it to be in every souls-like game.
 
Levels are challenge only before you reached the boss, when you are exploring them, fight all enemies, searching for shortcuts etc. After that it's just tedious runs past all enemies straight to the boss. It's just waste of time that gives nothing beside irritation.
Wrong. You may as well say that phase 1 of a boss fight is only a challenge until you reach phase 2, and after that it's just tedious.
 
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Wrong. You may as well say that phase 1 of a boss fight is only a challenge until you reach phase 2, and after that it's just tedious.
No it's not. Running to the boss past all the enemies is trash gameplay it's barely above climbing to the top of a ubisoft tower. Theres almost zero challenge to it and its just plain boring.

If the game wants to set me back far then fine but it has to be enjoyable gameplay. Repeating the boss from the start is fine it's fun and I might be dying because I am not playing well and don't have enough health for the second phase "I need to get good".

If your defending running to the boss you might as well defend long loading times, unskippable cut-scenes or forced walking
 

tassletine

Member
I agree but DS games have a fair few of these sorts of stress inducing mechanics that come across as lazy design wise. Ie: your sword hits walls but enemies swords have no problem slicing you through them.
It’s all part of Miyazaki’s trolling players, which he has done from the beginning and is pretty much part of his game design ethos.
 
No it's not. Running to the boss past all the enemies is trash gameplay it's barely above climbing to the top of a ubisoft tower. Theres almost zero challenge to it and its just plain boring.

If the game wants to set me back far then fine but it has to be enjoyable gameplay. Repeating the boss from the start is fine it's fun and I might be dying because I am not playing well and don't have enough health for the second phase "I need to get good".

If your defending running to the boss you might as well defend long loading times, unskippable cut-scenes or forced walking
A boss run in a level like 4-2 is anything but boring
 

MiguelItUp

Member
I certainly don't mind it if it's handled well. We've definitely seen examples where this is done poorly, but also vice verse.
 

WitchHunter

Member
I don’t get angry at losing to bosses, I’m not 5. And I train while fighting, there’s no need to think about anything, this isn’t the SATs. Get a grip, there’s no need to get angry.
I'm not angry, just voiced my concerns regarding universal truths.
 

partime

Member
I hate it when I miss opening those fucking shortcuts.

A long journey through the world, then you stumble upon the fog of your own demise. Damn don't see a shortcut, I know I'm gunna regret it.
 

Synless

Member
Your right OP, I want a games where the bosses mercilessly hunt you down in their respectIve domains. Once you kill a few they start to gang up on you.
 

Swift_Star

Banned
The last few replies are not even worth replying to. Bad irony that makes no sense with what I said. Be better.
 
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