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[Data West]

i really think you're spouting pessimism without restraint .

Yes konami was unable to difine themselves properly I agree ..

BUT for the rest i dunno what you've smoked . Sega is on teh verge of doing sonic generation AFTER colors and the DS/3ds sonic games are freaking fine , Sonic is waking up and doing fine so far . Yakuza is a sucess for them and it's a freaking game , valkyria is not gonna die , it will not be localised ( because sega doesn't believe in the psp OUTside japan )..
There are game coming from sega , look at them ..

SE is doing fine, their handled games are doing fine, their Ios games are doing fine, FF11 is still strong and while ff14 star was awefull they are clearly working on it with Several HUGE changes 1.18 to 1.20 DONE & Planned , FF13 was acommercial sucess and the demand for ff13-2 is clearly here ...
What's more they did a freaking job by acquiring deus ex HR makers and letting them do thing fine .. ( game is great ) if you've paid attention to what SE released , you'd see plenty of good/great titles ...

Level 5 is doing so fine , they have a US branch opening up ..Layton games ? Great . WKC ? Not for you but it's not shit ...the community Online is freaking healty and YOU'll STILL FIND PEOPLE Online on the first game servers ..

Your love has shifted ..you're willing go give a free pass to Activision & EA but not to Sega & SE ? the problem here is that your taste have changed , not the games fault..

There are plenty of Great game / good franchises this gen from Japan....
Continue to complain about shenmue , even if there are plenty of games like it ..BECAUSE YOU'RE UNABLE to MOVE ON

Yakuza is not just 'a success'. It's one of the biggest franchises in all of Japan.

Don't know why anyone would question Sega this generation. I think of all the Japanese publishers, they've adapted best. You've got Platinum games that appeal to both sides of the world(though they're not huge sellers yet. I think they've got potential to be with both the West and the East.) You've got the Football Manager games with Europe. Sonic games always sell well, regardless of quality. It's not like Sega is spending big money on huge risks. They've been doing a great job of playing it safe. I think them becoming a publisher was a great idea, financially.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Rahxephon91, you mention Grasshopper and Platinum, but several of their games are loaded with fanservice.

Yeah they do. There's nothing wrong with TNA and most of those games have TNA for things that don't remind me of pre-teen girls that I want to protect. Basicly, I think that fanservice is less of a turn off than moe and isn't the same.

 

[LosDaddie]

Great article in the OP. It definitely hit home for me.

This has been the best gen, by far, for me and I can't help but think it's because of Western games dominating the market. Absolutely loving this gen. It seems the only JPN devs that make games I'm interested in are Capcom and Nintendo.

And yes, I'm strictly a console gamer, thought I do own a 3DS.

 

[Kacho]

Yeah, well that is where we differ. The only part of such games relevant to me is the gameplay. This the crux of where I find my tastes have come out of sync with the average western gamer. Western gamers have started to play games just for setting and narrative alone, and they tolerate or completely disregard the often janky and lackluster gameplay which that narrative package is wrapped around as an mere afterthought. Western games have started to veer closer to Hollywood, they have started to feel more and more like interactive movie experiences.

This is a sort of thinking I cannot ever get behind.

Very well said. This is the issue I have with Western gaming culture. Beyond the slick visuals and clever marketing campaigns, I often find the gameplay incredibly lacking and/or poor.

 

[dramatis]

Except she's clearly a woman, and dressed in time-period appropriate clothes (relative to the other characters in the game). I'd say Lara Croft is a much better example of character specifically designed to elicit a response from players.

The "response" moe aims to elicit is not necessarily sexual. That's why when a person who is familiar with moe is asked what moe is, the answer is hard to define. It's not that they're running around in circles trying to pretend moe isn't just based on loli, it's because moe is something that doesn't have to apply to just lolis or big boobed women. It can apply to the reverse gender, where a girl looks at a specific male design that generates the feeling of moe.

Think about it this way. There's an image of a kitten in a blender looking at the camera with big eyes floating around the web somewhere. Yes, it's quite terrible. Some people's first instinct is to get the kitten out of the blender and out of harm's way. Imagine that feeling applied to a fictional character instead, and you get a general gist of what moe is.

That's why Elizabeth qualifies, because the big ideas, and somewhat innocent and childish personality generate fuzzy feelings for the player and encourages the player to try to protect her. (This is not my personal opinion. I don't like her design.)

Don't know why anyone would question Sega this generation. I think of all the Japanese publishers, they've adapted best. You've got Platinum games that appeal to both sides of the world(though they're not huge sellers yet. I think they've got potential to be with both the West and the East.) You've got the Football Manager games with Europe. Sonic games always sell well, regardless of quality. It's not like Sega is spending big money on huge risks. They've been doing a great job of playing it safe. I think them becoming a publisher was a great idea, financially.

Capcom's been the best Japanese publisher this gen. Sega has been doing very well for itself though.

 

[zeelman]

Ok I have a few things to say:

1. About the hatred towards Western games.

Japanese people have no problem with Western fashion, movies, music etc so blaming
lack of popularity of Western games on simple xenophobia is ridiculous. The stigma attached to Western gaming exists for a reason: most of the Western games published on platforms that were popular in Japan back in the day (NES, SNES etc.) were bad. To compound this, these games were translated quick and cheap as well.

In fact, in their latest podcast, the guys at 8-4 said that even now the standard of localization is almost as laughably bad as it was in the 8-bit days. This includes HUGE games like Red Dead Redemption.

Getting rid of the stigma of "bad quality" takes time, but it is happening. Even with their poor localizations, Western games are seen with more and more frequency in the Japanese top tens.

Before using the xenophobia card, people should remind themselves that there are also many Japanese genres which hold zero appeal towards Westerners. This is why we shouldn't be offended even if they never develop a liking for our fantastic FPS-games.



2. The "rise" of Western gaming

People who think there has been a sudden increase in the quality of Western games must have lived in a console-only bubble during the 90s (which seems to be most people in the Western gaming press, strangely). Most of the developers who are popular now were creating classics back then too, just on the PC instead.



3. The issue of ignoring developments in Western gaming

The part about Japanese developers not paying attention to Western gaming is blatantly false, at least when it comes to some of the biggest figures in the industry.

Hironobu Sagaguchi got the inspiration to revamp the JRPG from playing Gears of War (of all things). Kojima is always talking about how Western developers are ahead of the curve, and Koji-Pro now employs plenty of Westerners to counter this. And then there is Inafune, who clearly worships the very ground Western developers walk on. The list goes on...

The only big company that's been mostly ignoring Western developers is Nintendo, but then again, they haven't had any problems being successful in the West, not until very recently at least.

1. It is xenophobia that developed as the result of crappy western games in the 80s. The Xbox 360 had a ton of games from Japanese developers, and yet it still sold poorly.

2. Western gaming has become much more popular in the past decade then it was in the 90s, especially on consoles. A lot of developers such as Bethesda, Irrational Games, id, Epic, etc. were doing well, but their sales have increased greatly with consoles this gen.

3. There are some exceptions, but Japanese developers in general still ignore western game development.

 

[Warrior_Keoni]

Eastern and Western gaming are two different paths with one point which is the game itself. As an American, I've enjoyed FPS gaming such as CoD, Battlefield and more. Western RPGs are pretty decent such as Dragon Age.

As an American who also enjoys Japanese games, I really like the adventure sense from their RPGs.

However, Japanese developers make games for their own gamers first and foremost. While gaming has spread to international levels, why are Western gamers constantly ridiculing Japan when they develop their own games for their own people?

"Oh, it's not on our level of gaming..." is a rather ignorant statement that the gamer believes that they are entitled to it.

We like what we make, and they like what they make. It's close to comparing a certain type of food dish to that of another country's. If you don't like it, don't bother getting it.

 

[semiconscious]

'japanese developers don't make tons of shooters, do other (& sometimes strange) things instead'. details at 11:00...

 

[CornBurrito]

I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.

Your loss.

 

[gutterboy44]

Since I don't play as many RPGs these days, the game that said to me, "Japanese games are stagnate as fuck" was GT5. I love this game to death, but it was made by a studio that has had their head in the sand up to their asses.

 

[PataHikari]

Great article in the OP. It definitely hit home for me.

Are... are we reading the same article?

It is retarded.

 

[1-D_FTW]

'japanese developers don't make tons of shooters, do other (& sometimes strange) things instead'. details at 11:00...

Yeah, except for the part about the Japanese being a whole lot more clique and factory assembly line dull than the west, and you're dead on.

 

[Emitan]

You're loss.

Are we trying to imitate 80's translations of JPN games?

I AM ERROR.

 

[scosher]

My 2c:

Western gaming tastes have always diverged from that of Japan. It's not really a recent trend. It's just more prominent now because back in the 8-bit/16-bit era, the hardware of consoles was so limited that developers had to draw cutesy 2D sprites with overt expressions to best display their emotions. That art style only added to the charm and humor of those games, such as FF6 and Chrono Trigger. However, if you look at the PC gaming scene back then in the 90's, which was immensely more popular than consoles at the time, Western gamers nonetheless preferred more gritty and realistic experiences, such as Wolfenstein, Baldur's Gate, Myst, and later CounterStrike. Hell, even on the console, games like Mortal Kombat were huge sellers in the States compared to Japan.

As the graphical capabilities of consoles improved, console games took a note from their PC brethren and started to cater to the tastes of the West. And niche franchises like Final Fantasy suddenly exploded in the West with FF7. Realism became even more pronounced as we entered the next generation of HD gaming, and characters found in Japanese "moe" style games became more ridiculous than when they were just 2D sprites.

For whatever reason though, Japanese gamers prefer that style, likely due to their pervasive anime/manga culture. And that's not to say those Westerners who prefer JRPG's and the like have bad tastes, as there's a certain charm and innocence in their games that you never find in a Mass Effect or Witcher game.

 

[Data West]

We both think pompadours are cool therefore Japan should make more protags with pompadours than shampoo model hair, and the NA/EU should make more games with protags with pompadours than bald.

See? We can settle in the middle.

 

[CornBurrito]

Are we trying to imitate 80's translations of JPN games?

I AM ERROR.

I realized my mistake, but figured I'd be quoted before I could stealth edit. lol.

 

[Emitan]

I realized my mistake, but figured I'd be quoted before I could stealth edit. lol.

I only called it out because of the nature of the thread. Engrish is funny.

 

[spirity]

When I started gaming (grabs pipe and slippers) I primarily played UK games and a smattering of USA developed ones. Thats the way it was back then, more or less. Then it changed, Japan started pouring out crazy good rpgs and my game library was 90% east 10% west.

Nowadays its switched again. 90% west and 10% east. I go where the quality is (imo) and my tastes are far broader now, its not just rpgs I play. I don't have any sort of region loyalty. I just buy games I think are great. I've made a few mistakes, but by and large, the west has been producing all the stellar games of late. Ymmv. I consider myself to be fairly open minded and will play both a dudebro/military shooter or a moe/otaku/whateverthefucktheyare jrpg, as long as they're good and I enjoy them. Japan hasn't really been moving me at all, for quite a number of years now. I don't really care why this is, I just know it is.

I'm sure plenty of people here can point me to a fantastic jrpg scene on a handheld device, but I don't do that sort of thing. Lost Odyssey and Demon Souls were great, but thats all thats grabbed me. I daresay, over time, there'll be another 'power swtich' that propels Japan into the lead again, but its not happening any time soon that I can see.

As long as there are great games (and there are) I don't give a toss who's making them.

 

[genjiZERO]

that's cool. I love me some Japanese Japanese games. As long as I can still get them I'm happy.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

a thread about moe and barely any pics

smh gaf

 

[Boombloxer]

To you and to others, but there are a signficant portion who would disagree. They have had some seriously amazing content this generation and alot of people point it out everyday so I'm not going to do it again.

There's nothing to point out. t's not really that close, even including iOS titles and social games.

 

[Jokeropia]

Nintendo still makes money of their IP. They still manage to sell "family-oriented" games, but they're currently in trouble - big trouble.

Eh, not really. They're in a transitional phase at the moment but are still in a better shape financially than pretty much all other companies in the industry.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

1. It is xenophobia that developed as the result of crappy western games in the 80s. The Xbox 360 had a ton of games from Japanese developers, and yet it still sold poorly.

Meaning that there is actually a reason that they are cautious of Western games, instead of just an irrational hatred of foreign things?

Xbox 360 is a poor example. Did Microsoft really think that one or two bought exclusives were enough to turn the tide? Japanese gamers were smart enough to see that Microsoft weren't interested in investing in the Japanese market in the long run, and they were right. The Japanese exclusives stopped coming the minute Lost Odyssey etc. failed to make the 360 a big player in their market.

Kinect is another example of how little Microsoft cares for the market, since its virtually useless in most Japanese homes.

2. Western gaming has become much more popular in the past decade then it was in the 90s, especially on consoles. A lot of developers such as Bethesda, Irrational Games, id, Epic, etc. were doing well, but their sales have increased greatly with consoles this gen.

Yes. That is because the market is more unified now (most PC games are also released on consoles and vice versa). It is mostly because this that Western games sell to a larger audience.

I think hardcore PC gamers would be the first to tell you that quality hasn't really drastically improved, contrary to what these kind of articles always seem to imply. In fact, in some ways their favourite franchises have been diluted by being simplified for mainstream console gamers.

3. There are some exceptions, but Japanese developers in general still ignore western game development.

Maybe, but I think the problem is mostly in management etc.. The people who actually make the games seem to be well aware of Western gaming, as we see in virtually every interview with a big name Japanese developer.

 

[gutter_trash]

IMO, Japanese devs are still making the same last gen games but in HD for current gen,

some may argue that lots of Western games still do the same shit as last gen; to a certain point maybe

but there tons of current gen Western games that were completely unfeasible last gen.

Compare that to current gen games the Japanese are making; they are pretty much doable last gen if they opted for SD

 

[Slappers Only]

"Our games are as good as ever, they're just not for you anymore."

Though I disagree that their games are as good as ever, I'm glad that this is their stance. People who approach gaming like they're placing an order, and it's up to developers to design a product that meets their specifications are what's wrong with this industry. I'm interested in being treated to experiences I could never have thought of. For better or worse (and there are plenty of Japanese examples applicable to both categories as far as my own interests are concerned) I'm comforted by the idea of content that disrupts the ever-honed, samey sort of Western experience I'm growing more used to and bored of. I'm impressed that some Japanese developers have the fortitude to stand by their output, rather than genericizing their products into something they can shove off to internet grumblers in the West.

 

[ctrayne]

And the implications are huge. Especially that people stop playing games when they grow older. That means with the japanese demographics that the jp games market will not only not grow it will decline. Where as here in the west games will continue to have solid growth for another 40 years(until the first generation gamers reach retirement age)

It also means japanese will have a hard time to sell their games going forward. Since the bulk of the consumers here will be 18 and up.

If this phenomenon is true, it explains so much about series like Tales of _____. I'm not hating on anything by saying this, but I honestly can't keep track of the number of JRPGs starring a 14-18 year old hero who "chafes against authority but has a heart of gold". Makes sense from a business perspective if your consumer base is a steady flow of teenage boys and girls. You could almost recycle the same story over and over again. Wait a minute...(I jest.) And of course, there are tropes in Western gaming too (dudebro), but I don't feel as inundated with them. For the record, I have nothing against Japanese games, and some of my favorites are Japanese-made.

Still, I always thought gaming was accepted better than that in Japan. Aren't there stories of people of all ages quitting work and staying home to play the latest Dragon Quest game? And more grounded, mellow stuff like Front Mission does well too. Plus arcades are still around and can at least stay in business. Shows how little I know about the region's gaming preferences, I guess.

 

[RedSwirl]

Yakuza is not just 'a success'. It's one of the biggest franchises in all of Japan.

Don't know why anyone would question Sega this generation. I think of all the Japanese publishers, they've adapted best. You've got Platinum games that appeal to both sides of the world(though they're not huge sellers yet. I think they've got potential to be with both the West and the East.) You've got the Football Manager games with Europe. Sonic games always sell well, regardless of quality. It's not like Sega is spending big money on huge risks. They've been doing a great job of playing it safe. I think them becoming a publisher was a great idea, financially.

Sega has definitely become a stronger publisher this gen with Platinum, Total War, and a few other things. In terms of internal development though they are a shadow of what they were before 2004.

Sega WOW (Overworks) and Amusement Vision (now splitting into the Yakuza studio) are all they got left while Sonic Team slowly limps back on the slow road to recovery and AM2 decides to release another game outside of Japanese arcades for once. We'll never get back Sega Sports, Smilebit, Hitmaker, Team Andromeda, etc.

Tech-wise Capcom has done the best job of keeping up in the AAA console space with their MT Framework engine.

In terms of actual game development though, I'm actually gonna say that Namco has possibly done the best job of keeping their shit together. For the most part they've been able to maintain enough success in the console market without compromising their identity.

The stable of franchises that Namco maintained way back on the PS1: Ace Combat, Tekken, Soul Blade, and Tales of, are all still popular franchises today and still get full-blown console releases, with the exception of Tales games not getting localized anymore. On top o that they've been able to do plenty of good things in-between on most platforms including CyberConnect2's games.

I think Namco has been one of the best companies in terms of maintaining and cultivating their fanbase on an international scale (except with Tales).

Other than that I'd also like to bring up Atlus. In every other thread we complain about how publishers blow too much on game budgets but Atlus has figured out how to release console retail games that play to their fanbase without financially ruining themselves in the process. Their publishing of From Software's games and now Catherine, show a production side of things that maybe a lot of western developers need to pay attention to.

 

[zeelman]

Meaning that there is actually a reason that they are cautious of Western games, instead of just an irrational hatred of foreign things?

Xbox 360 is a poor example. Did Microsoft really think that one or two bought exclusives were enough to turn the tide? Japanese gamers were smart enough to see that Microsoft weren't interested in investing in the Japanese market in the long run, and they were right. The Japanese exclusives stopped coming the minute Lost Odyssey etc. failed to make the 360 a big player in their market.

They were right to be cautious back in the NES/SNES, but having a problem now is just absurd.

The 360 had the following exclusives in Japan:

-Enchanted Arms
-Blue Dragon
-Lost Odyssey
-Eternal Sonata
-Dream Club
-Idolmaster
-Last Remnant
-Star Ocean 4
-Tales of Vesperia
-Infinite Undiscovery
-Galgun
-Bulletwitch
-Zegapain XOR
-AquaZone: Life Simulator
-Super Robot Wars XO
-Absolute: Blazing Infinity
-The Idolmaster: Live For You!
-Otomedius G
-DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou Black Label Extra
-Memories Off 6: Next Relation
-Mushihime-sama Futari
-Espgaluda II
-Plus many more

It wasn't just Microsoft bringing games to the Xbox 360 in Japan, there was many games from a variety of developers. How many exclusives does a game system need for people to buy it?

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Nothing wrong with a bit of Moe.

Anyway, I can see Japan going even more handheld gaming centric with the 3DS and Vita.

I really want to see that both succeed in the West, otherwise we could be left with an unholy amount of unlocalized games.

That's my main worry.

 

[Coxy]

They were right to be cautious back in the NES/SNES, but having a problem now is just absurd.

The 360 had the following exclusives in Japan:
list warz

It wasn't just Microsoft bringing games to the Xbox 360 in Japan, there was many games from a variety of developers. How many exclusives does a game system need for people to buy it?

uh loads of those arent exclusive, some of them were timed exclusive but a lot of people didnt buy it because they figured they would be ported and time proved them mostly right.

the list you posted is exact proof of why they werent and shouldnt be trusting since they dropped the territory and ended up with inferior versions of a bunch of games

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

This thread.

Holy shit.

TGS is not getting here soon enough.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Why isn't this locked yet? All it's succeeded in doing is spread misinformation.

 

[gondwana]

awful. article reads like some japanese language major's blog. replies in here are nearly as bad.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

If this phenomenon is true, it explains so much about series like Tales of _____. I'm not hating on anything by saying this, but I honestly can't keep track of the number of JRPGs starring a 14-18 year old hero who "chafes against authority but has a heart of gold". Makes sense from a business perspective if your consumer base is a steady flow of teenage boys and girls. You could almost recycle the same story over and over again. Wait a minute...(I jest.)

Yes, that is exactly how it is, as far as I understand it. Of course, there is also the fact that the few older gamers that do exist, also find these kinds of juvenile and cliche themes and characters appealing.

Still, I always thought gaming was accepted better than that in Japan. Aren't there stories of people of all ages quitting work and staying home to play the latest Dragon Quest game? And more grounded, mellow stuff like Front Mission does well too. Plus arcades are still around and can at least stay in business. Shows how little I know about the region's gaming preferences, I guess.

It's a myth. Yes, these kind of people do exist, but they are exceptions to the rule. It doesn't hurt that Dragon Quest pretty much holds a unique place in Japanese pop culture.

Arcades are still around because Japanese homes are small and the country is very densely populated. Just like with those karaoke booths, they are nice places to go spend some time with your friends.

I don't think series like Front Mission sell that much anymore. I might be mistaken though...

 

[djtiesto]

The article missed the whole elephant in the room - the demographic and economic issues Japan has been getting hit with in the past few years... I think a much lower birthrate (i.e. new people to bring into the world of gaming, to replace the adults who are moving on), plus a stagnant economy, means that Japanese companies are forced to:

-make loli moe games for the small, but extremely loyal otaku market
-tailor their games for a hugely competitive western market who only buys the same genres/aesthetic styles over and over
-develop lower-budget games for the handhelds (of course, this is where the best Japanese games are lately)

Count me as one of the people who find Japanese games vastly more interesting and captivating than American/Western ones. It's the fact that many non-Indie westerngames use bland and overly realistic artstyles, and the fact that the western games increasingly become homogenized - one dev decides that "red shit all over the screen when you are dying" is cool, every other dev apes that... one dev has a hit with a cover-based shooter, suddenly cover-shooting is in every game, even where they are obviously out of place. It makes nearly every big-budget western game seem to be like I'm playing the exact same thing, and the obsession with aping Hollywood makes things worse - even the stories and music feel so tired. Luckily, the west has a great indie scene that avoids lots of these pitfalls.

Mechanics are a big issue when it comes to gaming, and I like how many Japanese games attempt their own sets of mechanics, instead of blindly following the trends... lots of games "reinvent the wheel" with their control schemes and ideas - not every game gets it right, but it still keeps things interesting.

And, just curious, how many people downplaying the quality of Japanese games this gen have played the following?
-Mario Galaxy 1 and 2
-Sin and Punishment 2
-Xenoblade
-Resonance of Fate
-Valkyria Chronicles
-Hard Corps: Uprising
-Radiant Historia
-Strania: The Stella Machina
-Child of Eden
-Demon's Souls
-999
-Every Extend Extra
-Bayonetta
-Vanquish
-Kororinpa: Marble Mania
-Little Kings Story
-Ys 7

...just a small taste of quality Japanese gaming that I enjoyed these past few years. None of these games had a fraction of the budget of something like "Red Dead Redemption" or GTA4, but I had much more fun with them at least.

Plus, I find it difficult to see where the west has been so innovative? Online play? It's good if you give a shit about that (I don't). Making games more and more like overblown shallow Michael Bay movies? Throwing every single shader known to man on their game? Going to one-or-the-other extreme: Open-world jank or extremely linear and rigid setpiece level design?

 

[Neon_Icarus]

They were right to be cautious back in the NES/SNES, but having a problem now is just absurd.

The 360 had the following exclusives in Japan:

-Enchanted Arms
-Blue Dragon
-Lost Odyssey
-Eternal Sonata
-Dream Club
-Idolmaster
-Last Remnant
-Star Ocean 4
-Tales of Vesperia
-Infinite Undiscovery
-Galgun
-Bulletwitch
-Zegapain XOR
-AquaZone: Life Simulator
-Super Robot Wars XO
-Absolute: Blazing Infinity
-The Idolmaster: Live For You!
-Otomedius G
-DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou Black Label Extra
-Memories Off 6: Next Relation
-Mushihime-sama Futari
-Espgaluda II
-Plus many more

It wasn't just Microsoft bringing games to the Xbox 360 in Japan, there was many games from a variety of developers. How many exclusives does a game system need for people to buy it?

Just look at that list. Only a few established franchises and a bunch of niche games are not enough to compete with well established names like Nintendo and Sony. If you think those are enough, you are seriously underestimating the Japanese consumers.

Not to mention the fact that many of those were later ported over to the PS3.

EDIT: And let me just add that those games did have an effect, since the 360 sold considerably better than it's predecessor did. (At least it did when the exclusives were still coming.)

And, just curious, how many people downplaying the quality of Japanese games this gen have played the following?

- A list of games

People ignore most of those games because they do not push tech, because they are not on the HD consoles/PC.

 

[RedSwirl]

The article missed the whole elephant in the room - the demographic and economic issues Japan has been getting hit with in the past few years... I think a much lower birthrate (i.e. new people to bring into the world of gaming, to replace the adults who are moving on), plus a stagnant economy, means that Japanese companies are forced to:

-make loli moe games for the small, but extremely loyal otaku market
-tailor their games for a hugely competitive western market who only buys the same genres/aesthetic styles over and over
-develop lower-budget games for the handhelds (of course, this is where the best Japanese games are lately)

Count me as one of the people who find Japanese games vastly more interesting and captivating than American/Western ones. It's the fact that many non-Indie westerngames use bland and overly realistic artstyles, and the fact that the western games increasingly become homogenized - one dev decides that "red shit all over the screen when you are dying" is cool, every other dev apes that... one dev has a hit with a cover-based shooter, suddenly cover-shooting is in every game, even where they are obviously out of place. It makes nearly every big-budget western game seem to be like I'm playing the exact same thing, and the obsession with aping Hollywood makes things worse - even the stories and music feel so tired. Luckily, the west has a great indie scene that avoids lots of these pitfalls.

Mechanics are a big issue when it comes to gaming, and I like how many Japanese games attempt their own sets of mechanics, instead of blindly following the trends... lots of games "reinvent the wheel" with their control schemes and ideas - not every game gets it right, but it still keeps things interesting.

And, just curious, how many people downplaying the quality of Japanese games this gen have played the following?
-Mario Galaxy 1 and 2
-Sin and Punishment 2
-Xenoblade
-Resonance of Fate
-Valkyria Chronicles
-Hard Corps: Uprising
-Radiant Historia
-Strania: The Stella Machina
-Child of Eden
-Demon's Souls
-999
-Every Extend Extra
-Bayonetta
-Vanquish
-Kororinpa: Marble Mania
-Little Kings Story
-Ys 7

...just a small taste of quality Japanese gaming that I enjoyed these past few years. None of these games had a fraction of the budget of something like "Red Dead Redemption" or GTA4, but I had much more fun with them at least.

Plus, I find it difficult to see where the west has been so innovative? Online play? It's good if you give a shit about that (I don't). Making games more and more like overblown shallow Michael Bay movies? Throwing every single shader known to man on their game? Going to one-or-the-other extreme: Open-world jank or extremely linear and rigid setpiece level design?

I don't know man. Who can you say is really immune to trend-following? In many ways the "moe" aesthetic is to Japan what dudebro is to America. You could even say that Monster Hunter has had the same effect on Japanese gaming that COD and Gears have had on the west.

Most of the games on your list, while great, are also either really niche or from Nintendo. I Think the point of this whole thing is that Japanese gaming will never own as much of the western markets as it did during the 90's.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

If this phenomenon is true, it explains so much about series like Tales of _____. I'm not hating on anything by saying this, but I honestly can't keep track of the number of JRPGs starring a 14-18 year old hero who "chafes against authority but has a heart of gold". Makes sense from a business perspective if your consumer base is a steady flow of teenage boys and girls. You could almost recycle the same story over and over again. Wait a minute...(I jest.) And of course, there are tropes in Western gaming too (dudebro), but I don't feel as inundated with them. For the record, I have nothing against Japanese games, and some of my favorites are Japanese-made.

Still, I always thought gaming was accepted better than that in Japan. Aren't there stories of people of all ages quitting work and staying home to play the latest Dragon Quest game? And more grounded, mellow stuff like Front Mission does well too. Plus arcades are still around and can at least stay in business. Shows how little I know about the region's gaming preferences, I guess.

it is quite an eyeopener.

I grew with japanese games, loved playing mega man as a kid, final fantasy as a teenager. And i thought games like ico or silent hill 2 was precursor of great things to come. But they where just anomalies.

 

[ctrayne]

Plus, I find it difficult to see where the west has been so innovative? Online play? It's good if you give a shit about that (I don't). Making games more and more like overblown shallow Michael Bay movies? Throwing every single shader known to man on their game? Going to one-or-the-other extreme: Open-world jank or extremely linear and rigid setpiece level design?

The Thief and Deus Ex series would like to have a word with you, as they suffer from none of those generalizations and are largely brilliant. There's plenty more too, but I don't want to turn this into a boxing match. I also think you're being harsh on Western devs. Look at the big picture, just like you did with your own list of Japanese games. It's just as easy to ignore the great Western games as it is to ignore the Front Mission 1-5s/Xanadu Nexts/Demons Souls of Japan. If you're looking for stuff to hate, you'll find it. The opposite is true too, though - lots to love if you're looking to enjoy yourself.

 

[RedSwirl]

Plus, I find it difficult to see where the west has been so innovative? Online play? It's good if you give a shit about that (I don't). Making games more and more like overblown shallow Michael Bay movies? Throwing every single shader known to man on their game? Going to one-or-the-other extreme: Open-world jank or extremely linear and rigid setpiece level design?

Didn't notice that sentence, but the answer is:

Mostly taking ideas that were already done on the PC 10 years ago and introducing them to consoles.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

I don't know man. Who can you say is really immune to trend-following? In many ways the "moe" aesthetic is to Japan what dudebro is to America. You could even say that Monster Hunter has had the same effect on Japanese gaming that COD and Gears have had on the west.

There is nothing even remotely moe about Monster Hunter. In general, moe is not nearly as mainstream in Japan as people seem to think.

As the article in the OP states, moe games are in fact made for a small but avid group of otaku. Even though there is little prospect for growth for these kinds of games, you are pretty likely to at least make your money back if you target this group. This is why there are so many of them.

 

[RedSwirl]

There is nothing even remotely moe about Monster Hunter. In general, moe is not nearly as mainstream in Japan as people seem to think.

As the article in the OP states, moe games are in fact made for a small but avid group of otaku. Even though there is little prospect for growth for these kinds of games, you are pretty likely to at least make your money back if you target this group. This is why there are so many of them.

I wasn't relating moe to Monster Hunter.

 

[Derrick01]

And, just curious, how many people downplaying the quality of Japanese games this gen have played the following?
-Mario Galaxy 1 and 2
-Sin and Punishment 2
-Xenoblade
-Resonance of Fate
-Valkyria Chronicles
-Hard Corps: Uprising
-Radiant Historia
-Strania: The Stella Machina
-Child of Eden
-Demon's Souls
-999
-Every Extend Extra
-Bayonetta
-Vanquish
-Kororinpa: Marble Mania
-Little Kings Story
-Ys 7

...just a small taste of quality Japanese gaming that I enjoyed these past few years. None of these games had a fraction of the budget of something like "Red Dead Redemption" or GTA4, but I had much more fun with them at least.

I bolded the ones I either finished or put a decent amount of time into. Didn't like any of them one bit. They just don't offer me the type of satisfaction that I get from western games, and quite a few on that list suffer from that unbearable anime syndrome which doesn't help me get into it.

 

[R_thanatos]

Sega has definitely become a stronger publisher this gen with Platinum, Total War, and a few other things. In terms of internal development though they are a shadow of what they were before 2004.

Sega WOW (Overworks) and Amusement Vision (now splitting into the Yakuza studio) are all they got left while Sonic Team slowly limps back on the slow road to recovery and AM2 decides to release another game outside of Japanese arcades for once. We'll never get back Sega Sports, Smilebit, Hitmaker, Team Andromeda, etc.

Tech-wise Capcom has done the best job of keeping up in the AAA console space with their MT Framework engine.

In terms of actual game development though, I'm actually gonna say that Namco has possibly done the best job of keeping their shit together. For the most part they've been able to maintain enough success in the console market without compromising their identity.

The stable of franchises that Namco maintained way back on the PS1: Ace Combat, Tekken, Soul Blade, and Tales of, are all still popular franchises today and still get full-blown console releases, with the exception of Tales games not getting localized anymore. On top o that they've been able to do plenty of good things in-between on most platforms including CyberConnect2's games.

I think Namco has been one of the best companies in terms of maintaining and cultivating their fanbase on an international scale (except with Tales).

Other than that I'd also like to bring up Atlus. In every other thread we complain about how publishers blow too much on game budgets but Atlus has figured out how to release console retail games that play to their fanbase without financially ruining themselves in the process. Their publishing of From Software's games and now Catherine, show a production side of things that maybe a lot of western developers need to pay attention to.

I agree on pretty this ..except that namco while navigating to avoid obvious mistakes with their franchises also made weird choices trying ( like everyone) to focus too much on western studio and new franchises . Soul calibur 5 is a fluke , because the team was disbanded after SOUL 4 (or broken destiny ? ) and i'm still not convinced on their support of Tales of Games outside japan but still i'll give them benefit of the doubt since they seem recently to have finally listened ..

A high FIVE for NIS & ATLUS of course ...

I bolded the ones I either finished or put a decent amount of time into. Didn't like any of them one bit. They just don't offer me the type of satisfaction that I get from western games, and quite a few on that list suffer from that unbearable anime syndrome which doesn't help me get into it.

Well Mario is not anime, and i fail to see how anime oriented demon souls is , or bayonnetta for that matter ..

For example the closest to bayonnetta , made by western studios would be "enslaved" ?( i'm stretching to reach both ends ) ..

 

[Dunan]

Yes, that is exactly how it is, as far as I understand it. Of course, there is also the fact that the few older gamers that do exist, also find these kinds of juvenile and cliche themes and characters appealing.

I wouldn't go that far; the number of older gamers is a lot more than "few", even on consoles, and while they're more accepting of tropey teenage protagonists than older Western gamers are, it's more of a resigned acceptance than an active desire.

Then again, Taro Yokoo exemplified the teenage-boy-worship when, in directing Nier, he had a mini-hissy fit when the other directors wanted an older protagonist. Having played Nier, I can think of arguments for the boy hero, but Yokoo certainly didn't make them -- he figuratively stamped his feet while saying, "But this is an RPG! The hero has to be a young boy!"

Hiroyuki Ito summed up my desires (as a 30-year-old) perfectly in a post-FFXII interview when he said that his focus was on the older fans who might have drifted away from the FF series (because he knows that SE has been alienating them) and how he wanted to make a game that both young and old could enjoy. Reading between the lines, you could see where SE thwarted some of his plans in favor of younger-fan-favoring ideas.

(Question for under-20 readers: did you find FFXII "too grown-up" in any way? Was its relative (relative!) sophistication off-putting at all? Somehow I doubt it, and that any negative feelings towards this kind of game by the younger crowd are dwarfed by the negativity toward childish FFXIII by the older crowd. What say you?)

I'm confident that Japanese producers will break out of the seventeen-year-old-boy-hero trope pretty soon. They're going to have to -- if births peaked in 1974, and the average age of marriage is 29-30 (as I think it is in urban Japan these days), and the conventional wisdom is that only young single guys get to play console games and have to trade them in for work-commute handhelds when they get married, then the biggest potential fan base went into permanent decline in 2003-04, when this cohort turned 30. The number of teens/20s people in Japan has declined every year since, and will keep declining for at least 20 years into the future, because there are even fewer toddlers and babies around now.

Demographics was one factor behind the surge in brain-training games a few years ago -- people pushing 40 and seeing their first gray hairs and wanting to stay sharp. You see 40-ish people of both sexes with DSes and PSPs on the train all the time.

I'm left hoping that the Vita can be the bridge: console-level graphics on a machine small enough to carry around. Eventually the Vita will get a TV-out and we'll have a good compromise: Dad can play the cross-generational AAA games made by people like Ito and Matsuno on the train every day and occasionally sneak in a session on the big screen. Each additional rumor of PS and PS2 ports to the Vita further convince me that the generation who played those 10-15 years ago will want to come back and play them again, and that the Vita will do pretty well.

 

[survivor]

I bolded the ones I either finished or put a decent amount of time into. Didn't like any of them one bit. They just don't offer me the type of satisfaction that I get from western games, and quite a few on that list suffer from that unbearable anime syndrome which doesn't help me get into it.

What does that even mean?

 

[Derrick01]

Well Mario is not anime, and i fail to see how anime oriented demon souls is , or bayonnetta for that matter ..

For example the closest to bayonnetta , made by western studios would be "enslaved" ?( i'm stretching to reach both ends ) ..

I meant that list as a whole, not just the ones I played. I've heard and read about all of those except Strania: The Stella Machina (wtf?).

While Bayonetta is not anime it's clearly a japanese made game. The focus is 100% on the combat at the expense of anything resembling a comprehensible story and the girl character is embarrassingly oversexualized. I wouldn't compare it at all to Enslaved other than they're both action games in the way that DMC and god of war are.

What does that even mean?

It means anything resembling anime in any way, be it the characters, story, etc. That alone makes it extremely hard for me to even attempt to play just about every jrpg nowadays.

 

[AppleSmack]

Generally I only buy Japanese RPG's (some of them) because although they are linear they are also capable of doing some things better than WRPGs are. However the other genres I find japan is really lacking. Outside of fighting games of course which I dont buy..

What does that even mean?

probably an otaku that likes strong anime influence in his games or something.

 

[LosDaddie]

Are... are we reading the same article?

It is retarded.

Huh? The article hit home for me. This and 1UP's JRPG article too.

As a proud Western gamer, it seems the only JPN devs who make games I want are Nintendo and Capcom. Articles like this give me an inside look why this is the case. It's mainly been Western games for me this gen, and I've had a great time.

However, if you look at the PC gaming scene back then in the 90's, which was immensely more popular than consoles at the time,

Is that correct?

Didn't notice that sentence, but the answer is:

Mostly taking ideas that were already done on the PC 10 years ago and introducing them to consoles.

That's true to an extent. But to be fair, this is really the first gen where consoles could handle the type of games PC devs wanted to create. And really the first console gen where online play is a focal point.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

I wouldn't go that far; the number of older gamers is a lot more than "few", even on consoles, and while they're more accepting of tropey teenage protagonists than older Western gamers are, it's more of a resigned acceptance than an active desire.

Then again, Taro Yokoo exemplified the teenage-boy-worship when, in directing Nier, he had a mini-hissy fit when the other directors wanted an older protagonist. Having played Nier, I can think of arguments for the boy hero, but Yokoo certainly didn't make them -- he figuratively stamped his feet while saying, "But this is an RPG! The hero has to be a young boy!"

Hiroyuki Ito summed up my desires (as a 30-year-old) perfectly in a post-FFXII interview when he said that his focus was on the older fans who might have drifted away from the FF series (because he knows that SE has been alienating them) and how he wanted to make a game that both young and old could enjoy. Reading between the lines, you could see where SE thwarted some of his plans in favor of younger-fan-favoring ideas.

(Question for under-20 readers: did you find FFXII "too grown-up" in any way? Was its relative (relative!) sophistication off-putting at all? Somehow I doubt it, and that any negative feelings towards this kind of game by the younger crowd are dwarfed by the negativity toward childish FFXIII by the older crowd. What say you?)

I'm confident that Japanese producers will break out of the seventeen-year-old-boy-hero trope pretty soon. They're going to have to -- if births peaked in 1974, and the average age of marriage is 29-30 (as I think it is in urban Japan these days), and the conventional wisdom is that only young single guys get to play console games and have to trade them in for work-commute handhelds when they get married, then the biggest potential fan base went into permanent decline in 2003-04, when this cohort turned 30. The number of teens/20s people in Japan has declined every year since, and will keep declining for at least 20 years into the future, because there are even fewer toddlers and babies around now.

Demographics was one factor behind the surge in brain-training games a few years ago -- people pushing 40 and seeing their first gray hairs and wanting to stay sharp. You see 40-ish people of both sexes with DSes and PSPs on the train all the time.

I'm left hoping that the Vita can be the bridge: console-level graphics on a machine small enough to carry around. Eventually the Vita will get a TV-out and we'll have a good compromise: Dad can play the cross-generational AAA games made by people like Ito and Matsuno on the train every day and occasionally sneak in a session on the big screen. Each additional rumor of PS and PS2 ports to the Vita further convince me that the generation who played those 10-15 years ago will want to come back and play them again, and that the Vita will do pretty well.

Maybe the issue is not that there is no interest in "adult" games, but rather that Japanese companies are overly conservative and young protagonists are a safe bet for at least moderate success. For example, it pretty much only took one game (Vagrant Story) for Square to forever give up on adult protagonists, forcing Matsuno into shoehorning a teenage prettyboy into FFXII. It's not like Vagrant Story was a colossal flop either.

By now teenage protagonists have basically become a genre convention, as seen in that case of Nier, a convention that everybody is reluctant to break.

As the number of teenagers dwindles, developers will surely focus more and more on older consumers, but whether or not it will result in more "core games" aimed at adults (like in the West) remains to be seen. Japanese salarymen may just be satisfied with the likes of Brain Training.