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1Up: Why Japanese Games are Breaking Up With the West

D

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
TSA said:
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.

Does it bother you Western/PC GAF, that I think this:

is infinitely more appealing than this:
Click to expand...
I would say a game with artwork done by a prestigious anime company is the exception not the norm for JRPGs.
 
P

PataHikari

Banned
gutter_trash said:
IMO, Japanese devs are still making the same last gen games but in HD for current gen,

some may argue that lots of Western games still do the same shit as last gen; to a certain point maybe

but there tons of current gen Western games that were completely unfeasible last gen.

Compare that to current gen games the Japanese are making; they are pretty much doable last gen if they opted for SD
Click to expand...

You're joking right.

TSA said:
Edit: Then I realized I review games for GT, and people weren't too happy with some of my reviews, like the more recent Ico/SotC or Disgaea 4 review. So, I guess my opinion will always bother somebody. I'll just have to learn to deal with it.
Click to expand...

Wait.

You're the moron who wrote those idiotic reviews?
 
Rhazer Fusion

Rhazer Fusion

Member
It's hard for me to say Japanese games are stagnant when Western developers continue to churn out weekly releases of generic FPS's. I like FPS's and all, but the amount that comes out is ridiculous.
 
Q

Quadrangulum

Banned
zoner said:
I would say a game with artwork done by a prestigious anime company is the exception not the norm for JRPGs.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be Ninokuni. In my opinion, Xenoblade, Final Fantasy XII, Baten Kaitos, Tales of Vesperia are all relatively recent games that can stand toe to toe with Mass Effect aesthetically and none of them use, what we consider, the less savory aspects of modern Japanese mainstream entertainment as crutches. I won't say I heavily prefer one style to the other because I don't - the environments in Mass Effect, Fallout etc. have made me gasp in awe - but I can move between one and the other easily and seamlessly.

The key take away is that people who enjoy Japanese games are diverse. You have the extremist xenophiles like Scion on one side of a long and varied gradient that ends with a group that you'd probably find a lot more agreeable.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I... I just like good games.

But seriously though, I think the article is mostly correct in that a lot of it does come down to the cultural background of players. 1up did a similar article back in 2007 that touched on the visual differences between Japanese and western games.

Those same differences exist in pretty much all entertainment media from Japan. That's just their culture. At the risk of making a gigantic oversimplification, the Japanese seem to prefer their entertainment to be more surreal, or take itself less seriously, on the whole. Exceptions definitely exist on both sides, but that's the general tide I've seen.

What's unique about games is that because Japan basically ran the industry worldwide for 20 years you have people who grew up on their style (who are probably now a minority in western markets). I didn't like games with a "western" grey visual style for a long time, and just like the people in this thread who hate "generic anime style" I still don't have much of a taste for "generic western fantasy". That still hasn't stopped me from enjoying genuinely good games though.
 
M

Mxrz

Member
Why are there so many self aggrandizing experts when it comes to anything related to Japan? Very tiresome.

"Crap games are crap. People buy what they like."Cant say I ever really felt the need to think about it further.
 
P

patrickthehedgehog

Member
RedSwirl said:
I... I just like good games.

But seriously though, I think the article is mostly correct in that a lot of it does come down to the cultural background of players. 1up did a similar article back in 2007 that touched on the visual differences between Japanese and western games.

Those same differences exist in pretty much all entertainment media from Japan. That's just their culture. At the risk of making a gigantic oversimplification, the Japanese seem to prefer their entertainment to be more surreal, or take itself less seriously, on the whole. Exceptions definitely exist on both sides, but that's the general tide I've seen.

What's unique about games is that because Japan basically ran the industry worldwide for 20 years you have people who grew up on their style (who are probably now a minority in western markets). I didn't like games with a "western" grey visual style for a long time, and just like the people in this thread who hate "generic anime style" I still don't have much of a taste for "generic western fantasy". That still hasn't stopped me from enjoying genuinely good games though.
Click to expand...

I think you've about summed up my feelings on this.
 
D

Dennis

Banned
Kalnos said:
While I don't mind your opinion, this is still blatantly false.
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Yeah, I have always played a ton of Western games along with the Japanese games.

Gaming on Amiga and PC was pretty much just Western games. Obviously on consoles, Japan was huge.

So sad what has happened to Japanese gaming industry.
 
Q

Quadrangulum

Banned
OceanBlue said:
Are you talking about moe? Is that really mainstream Japanese entertainment?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, I'm just lifting the language from TSA's post. I suppose I'm referencing the stereotype certain gamers erect when they want to smear Japanese entertainment wholesale (antiquated brainless battle systems, dainty emo protagonists, underage sexuality, cookie cutter save-the-world storylines blah blah blah), as if most games from Japan share these markers at their core. There are many exceptional Japanese games that simply aren't characterized by those traits in any way.
 
W

wildfire

Banned
TSA said:
You're making a bigger deal out of the article than what it really is. This argument has been made before, it will be made again, and quite honestly, anyone trying to cram the explanation into a small online article is "dumbing down" the argument. If you really want to get into this type of study, then go beyond simple musing and hearsay. Trying to toss around results from Google search and Wikipedia and your own experiences is amateur hour. Come back when you've done some real research.



Art styles/direction. I was simply stating Ni No Kuni is more appealing to me visually than ME3 (CG, in-game, whatever).
Click to expand...

People like you should get over yourselves. THis article has initiated the most thought provoking and revealing discussion on the East West Gap I've seen this entire decade even though they don't have statistical tables to back them up.

It's fine if you think this topic to be mundane but don't bother trying to deflate a thread that others view as noteworthy.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Quadrangulum said:
I'm not sure, I'm just lifting the language from TSA's post. I suppose I'm referencing the stereotype certain gamers erect when they want to smear Japanese entertainment wholesale (antiquated brainless battle systems, dainty emo protagonists, underage sexuality, cookie cutter save-the-world storylines blah blah blah), as if most games from Japan share these markers at their core. There are many exceptional Japanese games that simply aren't characterized by those traits in any way.
Click to expand...

They just seem invisible to detracters (or buyers), like Bloodsport is for FPS detracters (or buyers).
 
D

Dresden

Member
wildfire said:
People like you should get over yourselves. THis article has initiated the most thought provoking and revealing discussion on the East West Gap I've seen this entire decade even though they don't have statistical tables to back them up.
Click to expand...
o_O

it's the same old jrpg vs wrpg argument with moelolipedoshit tossed in for the lulz.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
FieryBalrog said:
Wrong.
Click to expand...

how? lots of us were only playing consoles back then, so it rings true for me, anyway. do we have any % of gamers who were playing amiga, PC, etc during this time? i would guess at least the first decade would make this figure seem a bit niche, but i could be wrong.
 
Vire

Vire

Member
Pretty great article. I'm glad someone had the balls to talk about it rather than just ignore it.
 
Vire

Vire

Member
cosmicblizzard said:
But it's talked about all the time...
Click to expand...
By what major news and gaming site? Please enlighten me about all the IGN/GiantBomb/Joystiq/Kotaku/Destructoid/GameInformer/Gamespot articles about this issue.

Most are probably afraid of doing so given the some of the moronic responses in this thread.
 
U

udivision

Member
Where does Nintendo fit into this?
They're japanese, they've been doing the same thing for almost 3 decades. I don't really think they've changed to suit westerners or anything...
I guess the fact that there's nothing inherently western or eastern about most of their IP's helps them to not alienate either group?
 
W

wildfire

Banned
Neon_Icarus said:
Maybe the issue is not that there is no interest in "adult" games, but rather that Japanese companies are overly conservative and young protagonists are a safe bet for at least moderate success. For example, it pretty much only took one game (Vagrant Story) for Square to forever give up on adult protagonists, forcing Matsuno into shoehorning a teenage prettyboy into FFXII. It's not like Vagrant Story was a colossal flop either.
Click to expand...

After reading this, the cynic in me says the first major blockbuster to feature an adult character made in Japan that bridges east and west will feature a big chested heroine with a heart of gold, iron will but none of that inspid hypocripsy that plagues too many japanese heroines in anime.

Everyone in the east will revel in it as new and awesome, while everyone in the west will call it a Lara Croft send off/clone.
 
D3RANG3D

D3RANG3D

Member
udivision said:
Where does Nintendo fit into this?
They're japanese, they've been doing the same thing for almost 3 decades. I don't really think they've changed to suit westerners or anything...
I guess the fact that there's nothing inherently western or eastern about most of their IP's helps them to not alienate either group?
Click to expand...

Bingo
 
D

Deified Data

Banned
Zeal said:
this entire article is fucking garbage.

they're right, it's not that japan's games have changed, that's the root of the problem. they haven't changed and the west continues to evolve and get better and better. at this point, we are so much better, the japanese game industry has no one to blame but themselves.

so let japan to be stubborn and refuse to change, that seems to be the only thing they're good at. and i am especially proud of the fact that western countries refuse to accept this fucking 'moe' or lolishit. call it whatever you want, but it is borderline pedophilia in disguise.
Click to expand...
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
 
W

wildfire

Banned
udivision said:
Where does Nintendo fit into this?
They're japanese, they've been doing the same thing for almost 3 decades. I don't really think they've changed to suit westerners or anything...
I guess the fact that there's nothing inherently western or eastern about most of their IP's helps them to not alienate either group?
Click to expand...


Too be fair a lot of the Japanese centric games they keep in Japan. WHile this is good in maintaining their worldwide brand they need a method to allow their audience who appreciates that type of stuff like Xenoblade.
 
R

R_thanatos

Member
TSA said:
Edit: Then I realized I review games for GT, and people weren't too happy with some of my reviews, like the more recent Ico/SotC or Disgaea 4 review. So, I guess my opinion will always bother somebody. I'll just have to learn to deal with it.
Click to expand...

or maybe not review genres you dislike ? ( just saying )
 
W

Warm Machine

Member
udivision said:
I guess the fact that there's nothing inherently western or eastern about most of their IP's helps them to not alienate either group?
Click to expand...

Got it in 1. Most people wouldn't associate anime with Mario or even Zelda even though there are a few tell tale signs. Both come off as traditional youth focused cartoon or comic illustation.
 
Z

Zeal

Banned
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...

you just made an ass out of yourself, actually. i lived in japan for the better part of my life, including the fact that a few family members are japanese.

not that any of that matters, but don't come in here with your "well you don't know about japanese honor, but i'm an expert!" crap, junior.
 
D

Dresden

Member
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...
So... are you an expert?
 
Vire

Vire

Member
Warm Machine said:
Got it in 1. Most people wouldn't associate anime with Mario or even Zelda even though there are a few tell tale signs. Both come off as traditional youth focused cartoon or comic illustation.
Click to expand...
Nintendo games have more in common with Disney and Pixar these days than they do with Anime. The art style in conjunction with fantastic gameplay and franchise name recognition are the reasons why it remains so incredibly successful.
 
M

mujun

Member
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...

I agree with him for the most part, Japan is slow to evolve in a lot of cases, video games, I think being a good example.

If Japanese devs want to increase their sales outside of Japan they need to evolve, if they they are happy catering to their home market then they don't need to.

Why does being a Westerner disqualify you from discussing Japanese culture?
 
U

udivision

Member
mujun said:
Why does being a Westerner disqualify you from discussing Japanese culture?
Click to expand...
You'd have to be an expert for anyone to take you seriously.

I didn't read this whole thread, but had Nintendo really not been discussed/mentioned until now?
 
Z

Zuhzuhzombie!!

Member
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...

Culture?

The guy's talking about games.
 
D

Dennis

Banned
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Kalnos said:
While I don't mind your opinion, this is still blatantly false.
Click to expand...

FieryBalrog said:
Wrong.
Click to expand...

Okay! On consoles. GAWD you people split hairs.

The point is that because of this a pretty good chunk of American and Europeans prefer Japanese games, and they are getting served less and less these days.
 
Z

Zuhzuhzombie!!

Member
RedSwirl said:
Okay! On consoles. GAWD you people split hairs.

The point is that because of this a pretty good chunk of American and Europeans prefer Japanese games, and they are getting served less and less these days.
Click to expand...

Only in comparison to last gen, which was pretty saturated.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
udivision said:
Where does Nintendo fit into this?
They're japanese, they've been doing the same thing for almost 3 decades. I don't really think they've changed to suit westerners or anything...
I guess the fact that there's nothing inherently western or eastern about most of their IP's helps them to not alienate either group?
Click to expand...

But can Nintendo on its own hold up the entire Japanese game industry?
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
Suddenly the console market was dominated by the west, and Japanese audiences have never liked western games. There's an old Japanese gaming proverb, yo-ge kuso-ge: literally, "western games are shit."
Click to expand...

I lol'd.

But the article is pretty sad on the whole. As much as I love this gen, one of the worst parts of it is the gap increasing between the Western and Japanese gaming audience. At this rate, fuck all is going to be localized =(
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
Deified Data said:
The fuck are you talking about?

Westerners discussing Japanese culture like they know what the hell they're talking about: give it up. You're making asses of yourselves.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't even dignify this kind of mindless drivel with reason or intellect. The narrow mindedness some exhibit is frankly astounding.

And that people use moe as a justification for flagging off the Japanese gaming industry is just silly. Some years ago, everyone in America was jerking off to naked renders of Lara Croft as Tomb Raider sold millions on the back (bust) if the west's polygonal Aphrodite. And now we have Americans claiming that moe is the downfall of Japan. Something in that logic is flawed.

I've also never, ever heard "洋ゲークソゲー". All the Japanese nerds I know like most Western games. Except Fable. They hate that one.
 
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