Calisto Glory
Banned
And i thought it was the pedophilic mentailty
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1Up: Why Japanese Games are Breaking Up With the West
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
The Antitype
Banned
Wait... the entire point of this article is Western people and Japanese people like different things?
That's it?
That's it?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Those are funny examples because Japan still makes hardcore arcadey action games like those... I'll just say... Bayonetta, Vanquish, and No More Heroes 2 as random examples. That type of game isn't where Japan is considered to be lacking today.kokujin said:
Megidolaon
Member
mujun is right. call it moe or whatever, but the art styles and characters in many J games (especially RPGs) have that look to them which makes them really off putting to many people, even fans of the genre (like myself). Overstylized, disgustingly cute/oversexualized, ridiculously implausible outfits or hair. There's always some underage pigtailed freak with a giant staff, a girl with a freakishly high voice and a bipolar personality, a meek helpless damsel girl, a cat girl, a giant tittied girl. I even like anime style, but only when it's toned down a few notches.
Granted there's people that will like that, but it wouldn't hurt to tone down the art style a bit to widen the appeal, would it? Think Persona or FFXII or Zelda.
I don't think Lara Croft is any better, though.
Granted there's people that will like that, but it wouldn't hurt to tone down the art style a bit to widen the appeal, would it? Think Persona or FFXII or Zelda.
I don't think Lara Croft is any better, though.
FINALFANTASYDOG
Member
The only people who take loveplusplus are forefingers who want OH WACKY JAPAN
Love Plus Plus is the Japanese internet version of Rocky Horror Picture Show.
The fans know how extremely ridiculous the concept of the game is. They aren't bloody crazy; when they go and buy a cake for a digital girl on their ds and share it with fellow boyfriends on the internet they are doing it for the same reasons people throw toiler paper at the screen in Rocky Horror. Love Plus Plus is about being community and sharing
Yes, real lolita stuff does exist(especially on pc) but it's so niche to not matter, you can find absurd fetishes in any country.
It's interesting seeing it the other way: Japanese blogs all the time, taking up games like DNF / Postal 2 about how VIOLENT America is and how everybody there just wants to kill and torture.
It seems to be a universal trait to want to find other cultures wacky and odd.
Love Plus Plus is the Japanese internet version of Rocky Horror Picture Show.
The fans know how extremely ridiculous the concept of the game is. They aren't bloody crazy; when they go and buy a cake for a digital girl on their ds and share it with fellow boyfriends on the internet they are doing it for the same reasons people throw toiler paper at the screen in Rocky Horror. Love Plus Plus is about being community and sharing
Yes, real lolita stuff does exist(especially on pc) but it's so niche to not matter, you can find absurd fetishes in any country.
It's interesting seeing it the other way: Japanese blogs all the time, taking up games like DNF / Postal 2 about how VIOLENT America is and how everybody there just wants to kill and torture.
It seems to be a universal trait to want to find other cultures wacky and odd.
Castor Krieg
Banned
mujun said:
But you are not the target audience for anime games, Japanese gamers are, and they like it. Call it what you want, but I don't see many developers outside of S-E complaining about not making it in the West. Small studios sell their games at premium prices with low-volume runs, they make their money back. Nippon Ichi and Gust publish on PS3, but the games' graphics do not require huge money investment. Other studios publish on PSP/DS.
It seems the main problem Western gamers have with Japanese developers, it's thinking they should try more to appeal to Western tastes and make Western games. But here's the thing - Japanese developers don't need to and they don't want to make games like that. It's the same as asking Bioware to make next Mass Effect animu-based with 10-year-old Shepard.
kokujin said:
Excuse me? The World Ends with You? Sold like shit in the West. Infinite Space? Sold like shit. EoE was miles better than FFXIII, and sold many times more. Yakuza series is also barely selling in the West.
This generation has lots of great games from Japanese developers, but the "pie" has increased. In the past you sold 50k when dream was to sell 150k. Now Japanese games are still selling 50k-100k, but the total potential market increased to millions of copies sold thanks to Halo, CoD, etc. This makes it look like Japanese games went to shit, but they didn't. They always sold to people LIKING Japanese games.
Megidolaon
Member
Hey, I actually think this is also a legitimate complaint that I've had against a lot of Western games myself. And there's a lot of truth in it. I went into the Gamestop with my mom (who knows nothing of games) while we were at the mall to reserve Zelda and she looked around and asked why everything was so violent and about killing. It's hard to deny that it paints a kind of unappealing picture of the hobby.FINALFANTASYDOG said:
Castor Krieg said:
Sure, as far as I can remember I haven't demanded that they change it. I'm repeating what I said a couple of posts back, if they don't care about increasing their potential audience pool then they may as well stick with what they are doing now.
Seems like a good way to fall into a downward spiral to me, what with even the most hardcore fans getting sick of the same thing over and over and, all that. Still, like you pointed out, I am not the target audience and if they can make a buck doing what they are doing then who am I to suggest that they change.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Megidolaon said:
Persona is pretty damn anime. Nanako is definitely moe.
Castor Krieg
Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
But Persona mixes anime with the whole demon/end of the world stuff.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Castor Krieg said:
So? That isn't exactly a rare premise in anime.
Megidolaon
Member
Eh, Nanako just looks and acts like a normal little girl to me. If that's moe, then maybe I don't quite get the whole moe thing. :/cosmicblizzard said:
And I know Persona is anime, I like anime, and I wouldn't change it, I just think it has a wider appeal for an anime style because the characters are fairly normal looking, they act normal, dress normal, and are voiced normally.
That's why Persona 3/4 got so much praise when they came out and why say Star Ocean 4 got so much flak.
cosmicblizzard said:
Wtf? Nanako is "moe?" Now I've heard everything. Nanako is in no way presented as a character that is sexy or an object of affection in any way.
Persona is "anime" but it's also intelligently written and has relate-able characters. There's a big difference between that and the stuff that gets made for the moe audience. The animation industry in Japan is too vast to claim or assume that any anime from Japan is nailed on to be of a particular style.
^ Moe ^
^ A little girl
cosmicblizzard
Banned
odd_morsel said:
It's almost 5 AM, so I'll let someone else handle this, but I like how you use characters from what is essentially a porn game to defend your argument.
Moe is the ability of a character to instill in the audience an irrational desire to adore them, hug them, protect them, comfort them, help them with whatever they need/want, etcodd_morsel said:
You seem to have misinterpreted the meaning of "moh-ay". One does not have to be sexualized nor dress in a certain manner to be considered "moh-ay". These characters are specifically designed to appeal to certain people, that's what makes them "moh-ay".
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
The west really isn't doing better. Maybe selling better? I don't know. I can't look at this generation's list of games from either side of the world and go "Yeah, that's chock full of good stuff."
Maybe I'm just getting old.
Maybe I'm just getting old.
Megidolaon
Member
Well the whole concept of designing characters for the sole purpose of appealing superficially to a very specific audience's fetishes seems pretty sounds pretty lame. If that's what moe is, then I agree it is not good for gaming.
It sounds like a recipe for making shallow, bland, superficial, characters wrapped in all style, no substance. It encourages focus on characters' looks and superficial mannerisms instead of personality.
EDIT: Yeah what RevenantKioku said, too.
It sounds like a recipe for making shallow, bland, superficial, characters wrapped in all style, no substance. It encourages focus on characters' looks and superficial mannerisms instead of personality.
EDIT: Yeah what RevenantKioku said, too.
Solune said:
Interesting that doing any sort of google search for combinations of "moe" and "anime" or games, gives you a slew of sexualized images as results, yet you swear there is no relation to physical attraction.
I agree that they're designed to appeal to a particular audience. My point is that Nanako simply isn't one of those characters. Just thinking some little girl is cute and loveable isn't at all a trait unique to anime, and especially not this sub-genre of anime. Images of cute, adorable little kids and creatures are all over Japan, and the world, really. You can't just claim that every young, cute character in a Japanese animation is "moe," because you want to comfort them, help them with whatever they want, just like you would your cute little sister in real life.
"Moe" is often used as a pejorative - as justification to be repulsed by a specific type of show - I am aware of this because I am generally disgusted by fans of "moe" anime and manga. Nanako simply isn't one example of this.
Castor Krieg
Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
Anime nowadays is mostly about school/harem/moe/clumsy mail protagonist. Demons/ghosts are just a backgrouond, wheras in Persona they play a major role.
Castor Krieg said:
Surely you can't be serious? Those animes exist, but "mostly" is far, far too broad of a term to be used here. The biggest animes that I am aware of are One Piece, Pokemon, Evangelion, and seasonal shows that get large followings like Natsume no Yuuchou. Some of other big ones my students like are Usagi Drop, and one about a girl who lives in France. None of these animes are harem/moe, and none of them feature a postman as a protagonist.
School animes are huge, yes. Now turn on Cartoon Network and tell me what % of the American cartoons feature student protagonists.
FieryBalrog
Member
That's a weird and rather desperate analogy. Nice try.FINALFANTASYDOG said:
Interesting article!
I would add that, in my opinion, there was also a cultural shift in japanese videogames. I'm oftenly whinning about that.
It seems to me that back in the 90's, videogames didn't look like anime. They had their own aesthetic, which was probably more universal, but especially, was unique and identical. Then i don't know why exactly, it had to move toward a more common low denominator aesthetic, more folklorish and local in its references. That's not specially a bad thing in itself, and i'm not even sure it's bad for economy outside japan, but it's certainly a cultural and demographic shift, probably toward a younger audience.
I would take just two examples to illustrate that.
_Final Fantasy went all anime with the 7, and never stoped to aim at pop culture and anime fashion since then. Why not, but it certainly lost some of its core mature audience in the process.
_King of Fighter, which was one of the strongest cultural element to me, back in the 90's, is now all about cosplay clothes, fancy colors and pop / dance / lolita whatsoever. What i'm saying is that, even if Neo-Geo era was not really for everyone, those games had a really particular style and impact, and related to our culture. Now, of course, anime relates a lot to my culture, as french people are one ofthe biggest manga readers in the world, but still, there was some kind of a cultural downgrade. It went from elegant jazz/classical music with dark setting to a pop fest. Thay may be nothing but it's actually symptomatic of a big shift for me.
I think videogames just became more mainstream and teen oriented in Japan, at some point, as it did in occident. But when that meant more war, soliders and dudebros in the west, it meant more moe and cosplay in Japan, thus a certain withdrawal in the end.
I would add that, in my opinion, there was also a cultural shift in japanese videogames. I'm oftenly whinning about that.
It seems to me that back in the 90's, videogames didn't look like anime. They had their own aesthetic, which was probably more universal, but especially, was unique and identical. Then i don't know why exactly, it had to move toward a more common low denominator aesthetic, more folklorish and local in its references. That's not specially a bad thing in itself, and i'm not even sure it's bad for economy outside japan, but it's certainly a cultural and demographic shift, probably toward a younger audience.
I would take just two examples to illustrate that.
_Final Fantasy went all anime with the 7, and never stoped to aim at pop culture and anime fashion since then. Why not, but it certainly lost some of its core mature audience in the process.
_King of Fighter, which was one of the strongest cultural element to me, back in the 90's, is now all about cosplay clothes, fancy colors and pop / dance / lolita whatsoever. What i'm saying is that, even if Neo-Geo era was not really for everyone, those games had a really particular style and impact, and related to our culture. Now, of course, anime relates a lot to my culture, as french people are one ofthe biggest manga readers in the world, but still, there was some kind of a cultural downgrade. It went from elegant jazz/classical music with dark setting to a pop fest. Thay may be nothing but it's actually symptomatic of a big shift for me.
I think videogames just became more mainstream and teen oriented in Japan, at some point, as it did in occident. But when that meant more war, soliders and dudebros in the west, it meant more moe and cosplay in Japan, thus a certain withdrawal in the end.
FieryBalrog
Member
Not that many, actually.odd_morsel said:
Castor Krieg
Banned
odd_morsel said:
Evangelion? When was that piece-of-senseless-crap released? You are giving me 3 titles (I agree, One Piece and Pokemon are huge) against dozens of new anime released each year. K-ON is not moe? Infinite Stratos is not moe/clumsy guy? Seikon No Qwaser is not moe? Gosick is not moe? Freezing is not huge breast grils dropping clothes every episode? Same with Queen's Blade? How about Haruhi? Softenni?
revolverjgw
Member
Here's how I like my anime. Get those freakish huge eyes, itty-bitty noses and catlike faces outta here
FieryBalrog
Member
Cartoon Network has always aimed a surprising amount of content at adults, and in the Western stuff it runs, there is very little of the Japanese style moe/loli/student hero tropes in things like The Problem Solverz, Venture Bros., Robot Chicken, the new ThunderCats, etc.odd_morsel said:
It really isn't just the same.
Castor Krieg
Banned
odd_morsel said:
Oh God. Check TV once in a while. This is what airs on TV, you cannot fill the whole week with One Piece and Pokemon.
NotebookJ2
Member
Castor Krieg said:
I really wouldn't call Gosick or Haruhi in the same category of K-On! mostly on the premise that they have something else going on besides cute girls doing cute things [even if it's barely there at times]. I wouldn't even think most people would call Haruhi moe.
Yes, there's a lot of crap anime. Sturgeon's Law and all that. Actually, I don't even know if that's true--I don't have some strange urge to watch every single show that comes out to see whether or not it fills some moe quota or whatever. I generally only watch something that looks interesting, if it is then I'll keep watching, if it's not then I'll stop watching it. If it doesn't look interesting to me for whatever reason then I'll won't watch it. It just takes... effort to look for the decent things, just like with anything else. And I really wouldn't call it effort. Several minutes to look something up on Wikipedia doesn't take much work.
Actually, this can apply to this entire topic. There are lots of Japanese and Western games that don't really interest me, but that's really no different than how it was last generation. The only important difference now is that they're more expensive, which I will say confidently is the only thing that has had an impact on my buying not whether or not something is more or less moe or manly or whatever.
First, moe by itself does not designate any type of characteristics to a character. It is what a person finds attractive that they begin to classify something as moe. If you find glasses attractive, you like them but you're not actively seeking that trait on somebody. But if you absolutely adore them on a potential romantic interest aka physical attraction, that can be classified as moe.odd_morsel said:
Nanako is inherently part of the "imouto" / younger sister archetype. She is specifically designed to target players that have some attachment or affinity with these types of characters. You want to be the big brother or you want to be protective of her, when a player reaches that type of level that's moe. Of course I believe you're more than intelligent enough to know that being moe does not necessarily mean sexual attraction is involved at all.
Also I never claimed that all young, cute, girls in Japanese animation or "moe". In Persona's case, it is "anime" to the brim, her design is most certainly 100% intentional.
It's often used in this context because most people in general have no idea what moe means. Like you said, you can enter moe games or anime in google and sexualized images pop up. Instead of looking up some sort of intelligent definition, people opt to be presumptuous and give a derogatory definition to a word that doesn't have that meaning to begin with.
What are you talking about? Of course you can. K-On aired after midnight in Japan.Castor Krieg said:
In fact, that's when most "moe" anime air. After midnight, because they can't afford prime-time slots like shows such as One Piece. Most anime is still very niche.
These games were never aimed at you. These games were aimed at the same people who bought them last generation. Ar Tonelico, Disgaea, the Atelier series; all of these games aren't new titles signifying some shift in the Japanese market. Increased localization of these games, larger word-of-mouth due to gaming forums like this, and a possibly shrinking amount of regular games being produced (I'm not even sure of this) make them more prominent, but they're the same games being made for the same people.mujun said:
TheShampion
Member
...rvy said: