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2 years in, can we call BS on the "power of SSD" in new consoles?

Salem

Member
Quick Resume and faster loading times alone make them worth it.

Not on PS5 but that seems to load certain games exceptionally fast too.

What magic does OP think he’s been denied?
 

kyussman

Member
Perhaps when we are out of this horrible limbo state the tech will start to shine......but god knows when that will be......I guess Starfield is the big next gen only game coming that could kick start true next gen with it's scale......but that's in the hands of Bethesda and it's 1000 year old engine so I don't see it doing anything radically new.
 

Rivet

Member
So, before this gen launched, I, among others, was sceptical that new gen was much more powerful than the previous one, but all everyone told me about was the new shinny tech we were getting: SSDs!

Those were supposed to be the revolution in the use of memory, basically allowing developers to imagine worlds and systems so complex we couldn't really understand. I thought it was just fast loads, but my take was mentioned as ignorant, at best.

Cue 2 years laters and... Yeah, I'm still waiting on this tech doing anything substantial. In fact, this entire new gen has been pushing so little boundaries that almost every game is cross gen. I have my series s as game pass machine and it's great, but I sure as hell don't buy on the power of these new consoles, and specially on those special SSD.

All games made so far can run on last gen still, with some simple downgrades, it seems.

Am I wrong? There was any game making use of this technology that i didn't got to see how big is the difference? Is the new gen disappointing for you?

Nearly zero full next gen game has been released so it's too soon to know.

Among the games already released, we have Ratchet loading entire worlds instantly and Spiderman taking 2 seconds loading from the menu, so I'd say it was not bullshit at all on PS5.
 
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Corndog

Member
Let me make sure I got you right. You're saying a SSD like the one in the PS5 can't be used to load assets very quickly, therefore freeing up space in ram for other things like textures??
Now you are changing the entire argument. You said:

With the SSD you don't have asset duplication hogging the memory and you're freeing up seeks because it's instant using the SSD. It's more efficient overall
Now you are trying to change it to ssd quick loading will free up ram(which I have stated I agree with).

One last time. Removing duplicates through the use of an ssd will not lower memory usage. It will lower ssd storage size. That’s my argument and why I disagreed with you.
 

Gudji

Member
We haven't even seen a proper full next-gen AAA game let alone reached the potential of the SSDs (especially the PS5 one).
The Oodle guys wrote in 2020 some blog posts about their tech and also talked about the SSDs on the new consoles and said that these cross-gen games don't really take advantage of the tech other than faster load times. We're obviously going to be seeing some crazy shit down the line when games stop being PS4/XBO.
 

T-Cake

Member
What magic does OP think he’s been denied?

As I mentioned above, we haven't really seen anything like this yet. (Unless it is of course happening with next-gen titles like Ratchet and it's so seamless I haven't even realized!!!) I do notice after rewatching he says "loads textures" not the entire world - which is what I initially thought would happen.

(Start at 10:03 if it doesn't work automatically.)

 
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Barrico82

Member
Completely disagree, When i Play any last gen game you feel the difference with the load time, And if you take the only next gen games like Returnal or Ratchet you feel the difference in the load and only playing no wait waste time
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Now you are changing the entire argument. You said:


Now you are trying to change it to ssd quick loading will free up ram(which I have stated I agree with).

One last time. Removing duplicates through the use of an ssd will not lower memory usage. It will lower ssd storage size. That’s my argument and why I disagreed with you.
Ok so you agree that the premise of this thread is wrong but you just disagree with me saying that no longer having duplicates frees up space in ram correct?
 

Vick

Member
No? Load times are insane, the fact you can load a whole high fidelity free-roam in less than 2 seconds with Spider-Man honestly felt magical to me. And even the claims about SDD implementation allowing next to no pop-in at all were proved right when on the Matrix demo on PS5 you can fly on street level at light speed with no visual issues of any kind in sight.

It's sad however how so far only that particular demo lived up to this particular expectation. Forbidden West being cross-gen couldn't take advantage of this, and who knows if Guerrilla will drastically change their Engine for their next game.
At times there's pop-in even in The Last of Us Part I, a linear PS5 exclusive game ffs, and i'm 99% positive Naughty Dog won't ditch their old and heavy Engine anytime soon.

Hope to be proved wrong of course.
 

DForce

Member
Final Fantasy 7 Remake Part 2 is PS5 exclusive because of system’s SSD


Final Fantasy 7 was a linear game that was filled with hidden load screens.

Choosing to go into a more open world environment will require an SSD. Of course, some people on GAF want to make you believe this is not required.

Spider-Man: Miles Morales Dev Says We're Just 'Scratching the Surface' of the PS5 Hardware


Spider-Man 2 is obviously going to require more data.

You also have to remember this game is also playable on the PS4

Spider-Man's swing speed was limited due to storage speed, I'm sure this is going to be improved in Spider-Man 2.


Mortal Kombat creator on next-gen PS5, Xbox SSDs: 'It'll be huge'


"I think we haven't even scratched the surface of what will eventually be done with those systems."

I think I'll believe developers over some people on NeoGAF.
 

azertydu91

Hard to Kill
Now you are changing the entire argument. You said:


Now you are trying to change it to ssd quick loading will free up ram(which I have stated I agree with).

One last time. Removing duplicates through the use of an ssd will not lower memory usage. It will lower ssd storage size. That’s my argument and why I disagreed with you.
Jeez do you get of of not understanding things, it reminds me of this discussion we had about gow not being delayed into 2023 where you were adamant that it was.
What hobbygaming said was that since seeks times are lower you don't need to put as much in the ram since you can load faster from ssd. Imagine having ro render only what you see vs what's 100m around you because the camera move faster than hdd can load.
 

Ozriel

Member
Quick Resume is to die for, and IMO is by far the best new feature of all consoles this gen, but is it a function of the SSD?

Yes it is. It’d be a miserable experience dumping the contents of RAM into a slow 5400rpm HDD.

RIt actually does when you have duplicate assets that have to reside on the drive, the SSD frees up that memory. SSD seeks are virtually instantaneous

A lot of the memory in Marvel's Spider-man on PS4 was from duplicated objects. Cerny spoke about this

The ‘duplicate asset’ issue is all about reducing game sizes on disk.
Let me make sure I got you right. You're saying a SSD like the one in the PS5 can't be used to load assets very quickly, therefore freeing up space in ram for other things like textures??

He isn’t saying that at all. Just correcting What you said earlier.

That said, a Fast SSD isn’t a substitute for VRAM at all, so you’d still have to keep the assets in memory for any scene.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Wait until they start using the cloud.
Already happened

 

Loxus

Member
Final Fantasy 7 Remake Part 2 is PS5 exclusive because of system’s SSD

[/URL]

Final Fantasy 7 was a linear game that was filled with hidden load screens.

Choosing to go into a more open world environment will require an SSD. Of course, some people on GAF want to make you believe this is not required.

Spider-Man: Miles Morales Dev Says We're Just 'Scratching the Surface' of the PS5 Hardware

[/URL]

Spider-Man 2 is obviously going to require more data.

You also have to remember this game is also playable on the PS4

Spider-Man's swing speed was limited due to storage speed, I'm sure this is going to be improved in Spider-Man 2.


Mortal Kombat creator on next-gen PS5, Xbox SSDs: 'It'll be huge'

[/URL]



I think I'll believe developers over some people on NeoGAF.
Indeed, we are only scratching the surface.
 

Corndog

Member
Jeez do you get of of not understanding things, it reminds me of this discussion we had about gow not being delayed into 2023 where you were adamant that it was.
What hobbygaming said was that since seeks times are lower you don't need to put as much in the ram since you can load faster from ssd. Imagine having ro render only what you see vs what's 100m around you because the camera move faster than hdd can load.
No he isn’t. This is what he said.
With the SSD you don't have asset duplication hogging the memory and you're freeing up seeks because it's instant using the SSD. It's more efficient overall
He is saying that it would lower memory use which is not the case.

I’m saying it would reduce the game size on disk, not in memory.

As for GOW I stated it had already been delayed. I didn’t state it was going to be delayed into 2023.
 
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T-Cake

Member
And another bugbear - why on earth are we still getting these long copying processes when an incremental game update has been downloaded? Is that more an issue with the PS5 operating system than the SSD?
 

azertydu91

Hard to Kill
No he isn’t. This is what he said.

He is saying that it would lower memory use which is not the case.

I’m saying it would reduce the game size on disk, not in memory.

As for GOW I stated it had already been delayed. I didn’t state it was going to be delayed into 2023.
And you don't understand that it would also lower ram usage since you need to have just what the camera is looking instead of anticipating because load/seek times are too long. But yet again you focus on part of a sentence instead of its global meaning... Just like your gow delay response.
 

Nocturno999

Member
It's almost as bad as the power of the cloud, but SSD still bring other great benefits. The problem is that Sony handled it like adding SSD could result in better graphics.
 
Final Fantasy 7 Remake Part 2 is PS5 exclusive because of system’s SSD

[/URL]

Final Fantasy 7 was a linear game that was filled with hidden load screens.

Choosing to go into a more open world environment will require an SSD. Of course, some people on GAF want to make you believe this is not required.

Spider-Man: Miles Morales Dev Says We're Just 'Scratching the Surface' of the PS5 Hardware

[/URL]

Spider-Man 2 is obviously going to require more data.

You also have to remember this game is also playable on the PS4

Spider-Man's swing speed was limited due to storage speed, I'm sure this is going to be improved in Spider-Man 2.


Mortal Kombat creator on next-gen PS5, Xbox SSDs: 'It'll be huge'

[/URL]



I think I'll believe developers over some people on NeoGAF.
Luckily, both FF7R2 and MK will be on PC, so we'll be able to exactly measure how much bandwidth they will be using. Looking forward to it.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
It's almost as bad as the power of the cloud, but SSD still bring other great benefits. The problem is that Sony handled it like adding SSD could result in better graphics.

It can. Not in a way that it improves rendering performance, but in terms of scene complexity, detail, and variety. How? Well, with slow HDDs you have to load data for the next minute of gameplay or more, because loading data is so slow. You can't load new data just when you need it, it's too slow, it has to already be there JUST IN CASE it's needed. This means your RAM will always be full of data you might not even need, depending on what the player chooses to do or where he decides to go (at least in more open games). So you're wasting a lot of RAM, which limits the amount of it that's actually filled with useful data. That in turn limits the variety of assets etc you can use, and their detail level (data size).

With an SSD you can load enough data to fill the entire RAM in like two seconds (on PS5 - on XSX it will take slightly longer), so you only need to keep the data you're gonna need for the next few seconds of gameplay. This means you're wasting MUCH less memory, and can instead use more of it for data that will allow for more detail and variety in what you're actually looking at. It can also get rid of the slow squeezing through cracks, elevator rides, etc, that are only there to allow data to be loaded for the next area. This could now in theory happen just before you turn the corner into that new area.

So while the increase from 8GB to 16GB of memory with these new consoles seems much smaller than previous generational increases, in practice the amount of USABLE memory has increased quite a bit more than that. But that's only true if a game is made to fully take advantage of it in the way I described, which cross-gen games are not.
 
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The_Mike

Member
I think OP doesn't talk about ssd, but people in here really overhyping cerny and his secret sauce i o thats truly unmatched.
SSDs are doing exactly what they are suppose to do and it's great.

It's the "omg powerful I/O" oodles zoodles and noodles marketing terms certain people fall for every gen.

I called it when certain devs talked about it, and people laughed.

The same people are sad now and feels its not next gen because they fell into PR trap.
 

TonyK

Member
SSD means and will only mean faster downloads because even if a game is a Sony exclusive they can't make a game that will not work in a PC with a regular hard drive. Even Ratchet portals could be achieved with a regular hard drive if they preload the content or use whatever other trick.
 
Final Fantasy 7 Remake Part 2 is PS5 exclusive because of system’s SSD

[/URL]

Final Fantasy 7 was a linear game that was filled with hidden load screens.

Choosing to go into a more open world environment will require an SSD. Of course, some people on GAF want to make you believe this is not required.

Spider-Man: Miles Morales Dev Says We're Just 'Scratching the Surface' of the PS5 Hardware

[/URL]

Spider-Man 2 is obviously going to require more data.

You also have to remember this game is also playable on the PS4

Spider-Man's swing speed was limited due to storage speed, I'm sure this is going to be improved in Spider-Man 2.


Mortal Kombat creator on next-gen PS5, Xbox SSDs: 'It'll be huge'

[/URL]



I think I'll believe developers over some people on NeoGAF.

I’ve already brought several quotes from several developers on how the SSD can benefit game design and graphics beyond just boot/loading speeds in other threads.

Yet Gaf pseudo experts and developers seem to keep their ears closed.
 

SenkiDala

Member
If 1 second loading, or even instant, and quick resume is bullshit, then yeah.

I mean are you every playing games or just commenting about them on internet ?
 

Three

Member
I posted a whole ton of data on Beyond3D when I upgraded my PS5 SSD and the game isn't nearly as IO intensive as people think. I recorded a playthrough of the entire game and it only read ~1.5TB from disk over a full 8 hours of play.

Keep in mind though that 500MB read in 0.1s is still a read rate of 5GB/s. It's still a very good showcase of the SSD but people shouldn't think that it's reading at 5.5GB/s throughout the entire game. The actual average is only ~50MB/s.
Nobody thinks it's literally reading 5.5GB per second of gameplay. How many terabytes would that be for an 8hr playtime? The difference is that the warping between worlds is done in less than a second due to the SSD. The assets on screen would never be anywhere near 5.5GB at a time either. It would be limited by the RAM and not anywhere near all of it either.
 
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Nankatsu

Gold Member
No bullshit for me, sorry, specially because I'm mainly a console gamer, not a PC master race one.

Just the insta loading times and quick boot are really good QoL improvements on my end.

Everytime I go back to PS4 I'm like:

Kenan Thompson Reaction GIF by NBC
 
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Jormatar

Member
Nah, those loading times are great. Both consoles really delivered on that part. It's now frustrating to play those PS4 games that has loading screens longer than 20 seconds lol.
 

SLB1904

Member
Obviously there's been a substantial decrease in load times but I'm wondering whether we will ever have the feature whereby the world around you is loaded in as you turn around. I think Mark Cerny over exaggerated that situation.
Literally ratchet explain by developers. Word for word
 

Danknugz

Member
Quick Resume and faster loading times alone make them worth it.

Not on PS5 but that seems to load certain games exceptionally fast too.

What magic does OP think he’s been denied?
pretty sure he referring to the hundreds of threads going around before PS5 / series x launched claiming super special sauce exclusive to the PS5 SSD that would go far above and beyond the capabilities afforded by SSD technology already available to PC for years at that time, and the flaming of people who understood SSDs true capability trying to say it was just hype.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Watching the road to ps5 again, Cerny say that the SSD dream is to give the developers freedom, so it will mean less work for Devs. So in that aspect it's not some apparent visual advantage but just creating less work for developers which will mean more time for game development.
I think he should of gone into more depth about what loading 4gb of data in 1/2 a second actually looks like compared to HDD,1gb, 2gb or 3gb.

What is still quite exciting is that while the ultra Powerful 4090 with all its power and features does make the consoles seem rather primitive, we have to remember that the SSD allows a pretty big shift in actual game development which may result in unforseen advances that raw power just can't deliver.


But I'll say again I wish Cerny/Sony would of shown a demo demonstrating why a 5.5gb SSD is better. I mean there must be a pretty good reason why he choose 5.5 over less. No doubt the 5.5gb drive will be more expensive then slower drives and cost is extremely sensitive when making a console.
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
Uh, I love how faster everything is.

Only haters try to downplay speed. If it was a GPU that costs £1000 more for very little improve, you’ll hear the praise from the circlejerk elite guys.
But no no no, consoles having faster SSD’s isn’t important. It doesnt make a difference unless we can say ours is better…..

Id also love for PS to have Xbox’s quick resume, its like the best feature thats not on PS
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Uh, I love how faster everything is.

Only haters try to downplay speed. If it was a GPU that costs £1000 more for very little improve, you’ll hear the praise from the circlejerk elite guys.
But no no no, consoles having faster SSD’s isn’t important. It doesnt make a difference unless we can say ours is better…..

Id also love for PS to have Xbox’s quick resume, its like the best feature thats not on PS

People are not downplaying speed... Everyone loves and expected the faster speeds SSD's will bring. This thread is about other statements regarding what the SSD will deliver which have not really been visible.
 
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So, before this gen launched, I, among others, was sceptical that new gen was much more powerful than the previous one, but all everyone told me about was the new shinny tech we were getting: SSDs!

Those were supposed to be the revolution in the use of memory, basically allowing developers to imagine worlds and systems so complex we couldn't really understand. I thought it was just fast loads, but my take was mentioned as ignorant, at best.

Cue 2 years laters and... Yeah, I'm still waiting on this tech doing anything substantial. In fact, this entire new gen has been pushing so little boundaries that almost every game is cross gen. I have my series s as game pass machine and it's great, but I sure as hell don't buy on the power of these new consoles, and specially on those special SSD.

All games made so far can run on last gen still, with some simple downgrades, it seems.

Am I wrong? There was any game making use of this technology that i didn't got to see how big is the difference? Is the new gen disappointing for you?

Well due to COVID and hardware scarcity, we have hardly had any real current-gen games on PS5 and, especially, the Xbox Series consoles. Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart and Returnal are the only two games I can think of off the top of my head on PS5 that could be deemed 'current-gen' quality (as in not possible on last-gen systems without big compromises) and The Medium on Xbox Series X, a technically ambitions game that used a split-screen to depict two dimensions simultaneously, although this wasn't otherwise a very impressive game in my opinion, having played it on PC. We have also have The Matrix demo, which was impressive but that was a tech demo and not an actual game.

The reality is that the super-fast SSD only really benefits loading times, which can be super-quick on PS5 but typically are far less impressive on the Xbox Series X which I own. Sure, they are much faster than the old 5,400rpm laptop hard drives in the previous gen PS4 and Xbox consoles but are not really that much faster than an external SATA3 SSD connected via USB 3.0. What makes this especially annoying is that native PS5 and Xbox Series X|/S games have to be installed to the super-expensive super-fast SSDs, including games like FIFA, Madden and other third-party games, including smaller indie titles, that could quite feasibly run fine from cheaper external drives, whether that is SSD or hard drives albeit it with much longer loading times for the latter. I mean does FIFA 23 really need the PS5's ultra-fast SSD to play it? Hmmmm... I do not think so...

Even on PC, games have yet to really use the super-fast SSDs, mostly because developers have to cater for people with older hardware and slower hard drives. Most third-party developers, which includes almost all of the Xbox's software since it currently lacks any current-gen exclusives bar the aforementioned The Medium, are not really going to make the most of the current console hardware when they have to release the games on PC and console. The same is true of indie developers. Both those make up the majority of the GamePass subscription on Xbox! I suspect that by the time we do see true "next-gen" games that really push the current hardware then we will be nearing the end of this generation and awaiting the release of newer consoles.

Not that I am complaining really. This generation has really pushed 60 fps games as well as 120 fps too and given us a choice of 4K at 30 fps or lower resolutions at 60 fps or 120 fps with and without ray-tracing. We have also seen a big improvement in loading times versus hard drives. So while the SSD hasn't really brought about an innovation to the gameplay or graphics, it and the improved CPU/GPU in the new consoles has given us much improved overall gaming experiences. I could not go back to 30 fps games with approx. 30-60 second loading times now.

P.S. I completely forgot about Quick Resume on Xbox Series X|/S, which is a nice feature to have and I do make use of it but the truth is that the loading times are now so quick anyway that it is not something I would miss if it wasn't there. It isn't on PS5 for example and I haven't really given it much thought or missed it on Sony's console despite playing lots of different games on both systems (I have GamePass for my Xbox Series X).
 
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wOs

Member
The games I have been playing load a shit ton faster. I'd say that impact alone is worth it. Now whether quick shifting by dual loading graphics has happened very often I'll say no, but to act like it hasn't been a huge improvement is someone just wanting to bitch.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
People are not downplaying speed... Everyone loves and expected the faster speeds SSD's will bring. This thread is about other statements regarding what the SSD will deliver.

I think gameplay wise something like Returnal would be alot more annoying on Previous harddrives. Not having to wait and instantly teleport to another part of the level is great. Theres no filler before the small teleports.

And the gameplay stuff, “not having a pointless corridor to load the next part” we’ll have to see. Most games are still cross gen. Returnal and Ratchet are the only games. Demons Souls and TLOU are remakes with the same level design.
 

Amiga

Member
What about pc then?

PC is also changing with Direct Storage and AMD's Smart Access Storage. The Direct Storage available now is not complete yet.


Microsoft isn't launching a killer feature of the DirectStorage API yet, which is GPU-accelerated asset decompression. This feature allowed GPUs to use compute shaders to decompress game assets that are stored in compressed asset libraries on the disk. Most games store their local assets this way, to conserve their disk footprint. Without this feature, unless there's special game code from the developer's end to utilize GPGPU for asset decompression; compressed game assets still have to rope in the CPU, and lengthen the pipeline.

https://www.techpowerup.com/292951/...ut-without-gpu-accelerated-decompression?cp=2

So the next big thing for PC gaming isn't new GPU cards, it's storage API. IMOO it's not a good time to jump into PC without this.
 
I never bought into the 'secret sauce' narrative, but I am greatly enjoying the SSD. The only actual design changes I expect to see are dropping the forced slow-walk exposition dumps to cover up load times.
 
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