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A Response To Cracked's "Lazy Guide to Writing Strong Female Characters" Article
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Star Trek is again pretty uneven given the variety of characters and scenarios, but I can only think of one who has any sort of sexual trauma in her past (Yar) and only one real example of "we show how awesome she is by shitting on a bunch of guys" moments in Voyager. Overall I think all the series have done a solid job of a variety of characters who don't fall into easy molds, with part of the evidence being when something is weak—like Troi's mind-rape—it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Thinking about Halo's female characters, since that's my invested game franchise, I think it's a pretty straight 5/6 across the board, with the obvious exception that they're helping the main character who is in the majority of games male. I also don't think the villain being the main character criticism applies (sometimes the evildoers are guys, but usually it's just relatively faceless organizations) and also it and the "have to shame a guy" bit seem like weak angles of attack to me.
To use the Brave example, there's no way I get "OMG women are so much better than men" reading from the archery contest. Jessica Jones beats the crap out of everyone, and throwing a dude through your door is classic noir moves, it's not about humiliating a guy. And Rey, yeah, she's a excessively wish fulfillment can-do-no-wrong character in my opinion who would be more interesting if she had real foibles, but I don't think that's framed in a "embarrassing male peers" way at all.
I see your point, but depending on the story you're doing #1 doesn't make sense. Real people are often defined by or in opposition by social norms or expectations, from society at large down to a personal relationship (see: the son or daughter refusing their parent's destiny for them, et al.) It's worth interrogating whether that is necessary in all situations (such as the "does our fantasy world really need a lot of sexism in bigotry in it to be 'real' " question) but I don't think it's a necessary ingredient to making good characters, period.
And yeah, I think the romance thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I generally hate romance in a lot of my media, but that's because it usually comes off as something expected or obligatory (the lead gets the guy/girl, because they must!) But romantic relationships are a pretty core part of the human experience so neutering your female characters seems like going against what should be the ethos of "these characters should be treated the same".
Thinking about Halo's female characters, since that's my invested game franchise, I think it's a pretty straight 5/6 across the board, with the obvious exception that they're helping the main character who is in the majority of games male. I also don't think the villain being the main character criticism applies (sometimes the evildoers are guys, but usually it's just relatively faceless organizations) and also it and the "have to shame a guy" bit seem like weak angles of attack to me.
To use the Brave example, there's no way I get "OMG women are so much better than men" reading from the archery contest. Jessica Jones beats the crap out of everyone, and throwing a dude through your door is classic noir moves, it's not about humiliating a guy. And Rey, yeah, she's a excessively wish fulfillment can-do-no-wrong character in my opinion who would be more interesting if she had real foibles, but I don't think that's framed in a "embarrassing male peers" way at all.
I see your point, but depending on the story you're doing #1 doesn't make sense. Real people are often defined by or in opposition by social norms or expectations, from society at large down to a personal relationship (see: the son or daughter refusing their parent's destiny for them, et al.) It's worth interrogating whether that is necessary in all situations (such as the "does our fantasy world really need a lot of sexism in bigotry in it to be 'real' " question) but I don't think it's a necessary ingredient to making good characters, period.
And yeah, I think the romance thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I generally hate romance in a lot of my media, but that's because it usually comes off as something expected or obligatory (the lead gets the guy/girl, because they must!) But romantic relationships are a pretty core part of the human experience so neutering your female characters seems like going against what should be the ethos of "these characters should be treated the same".
That wasn't the point in the Brave example. What it demonstrates is a case of saying that Merida has value because she's way better than any of the men. Pixar was going for something that was pretty positive, but the article is saying that they didn't go about it in the most productive way.
I think number two is kind of weird. Where do you draw the line? The female character can't care about a male character? Can't interact with a male character on a regular basis? Last I checked about half of all people are male, so a guy being important to a woman (as well as other guys) is completely normal.
I think it's more about the notion that audiences wouldn't care about the female character if they didn't have a male counterpart who was equally important in the story, either as a love interest or competent partner or even a Joker-level villain that they want to murder.
This is why I said Max was a 6/6, because even as a possible romantic partner, Warren's role in the story is very minor and has no bearing at all with Max's decisions.
This is why I unfortunately can't name any 6/6 Studio Ghibli female protagonists, as the majority of them have a male counterpart (and often are a romantic interest).
Alex_Mexico
Member
Motoko Kusanagi is a very good example of subversion of all the tropes Cracked named. Sadly she's an exception and not the rule.
One can only hope Hollywood gets even remotely close to the Motoko from the manga or Stand Alone Complex.
One can only hope Hollywood gets even remotely close to the Motoko from the manga or Stand Alone Complex.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
And what do you know Korra has a couple of these. What an awful character.
It always bothers me too when female characters cut their hair to show how serious they are. Like, it it's trying act like character development, but it almost never actually means anything (Like Sakura AND Ino in Naruto) You can be feminine and still an ass kicker.
And funnily enough both Korra AND Asami ended up with short hair in the last season, and then ended up in love. Which I personally think is kinda iffy because it feeds into the whole "lesbians and short hair" thing, but no one ever seems bothered by it but me.
It always bothers me too when female characters cut their hair to show how serious they are. Like, it it's trying act like character development, but it almost never actually means anything (Like Sakura AND Ino in Naruto) You can be feminine and still an ass kicker.
And funnily enough both Korra AND Asami ended up with short hair in the last season, and then ended up in love. Which I personally think is kinda iffy because it feeds into the whole "lesbians and short hair" thing, but no one ever seems bothered by it but me.
And I don't agree with that sentiment at all. They get to play parts of the scenes for laughs, which is important in a comedy film, and it doesn't detract from the fact that Merida is great at archery. No one with a brain in the audience thinks that all women are better than men as a result, which is literally what the author is saying.
UncleSporky
Member
I feel like this one
is merely a consequence of males being the default character. Like if movies are 70-90% men in those roles, then if you ever have a strong female character there's a 70-90% chance their story is going to revolve around a guy as well. I'm not sure an intentional choice is made to make the story revolve around a male in the majority of those situations. Certainly some, of course. But it's a multifaceted thing.
The other thing I think of is, what if you turn this on its head, and say that you need to subvert this thing specifically by making the strong female character's story revolve around another female character?
Isn't society still in a place where you'd be in the unfortunate situation of a lot of people going "lol catfight, rawr?" Might even be accused of doing it on purpose to pander to males who like that sort of thing. "A story about two powerful women involved in the biggest catfight ever." Or also the trope of males ogling women with barely repressed sexual feelings for each other. Sometimes the character casting choices might be made specifically to avoid that, because it could be worse than the alternative.
is merely a consequence of males being the default character. Like if movies are 70-90% men in those roles, then if you ever have a strong female character there's a 70-90% chance their story is going to revolve around a guy as well. I'm not sure an intentional choice is made to make the story revolve around a male in the majority of those situations. Certainly some, of course. But it's a multifaceted thing.
The other thing I think of is, what if you turn this on its head, and say that you need to subvert this thing specifically by making the strong female character's story revolve around another female character?
Isn't society still in a place where you'd be in the unfortunate situation of a lot of people going "lol catfight, rawr?" Might even be accused of doing it on purpose to pander to males who like that sort of thing. "A story about two powerful women involved in the biggest catfight ever." Or also the trope of males ogling women with barely repressed sexual feelings for each other. Sometimes the character casting choices might be made specifically to avoid that, because it could be worse than the alternative.
Zoe
Member
I don't think Sakura is a good example here. Not only was it done out of necessity, she retained her femininity after.
Plus the reason it was that long in the first place was something MANY girls are guilty of.
Well I did list Lara Croft.
Ironically, it turns out very few Japanese heroines experience a sex trauma....as long as you're not counting hentai.
Anyway, I did think of a movie example:
6/6.
I guess Leslie Jones' character is kind of a tomboy, but not really.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
I mean that was more because she wasn't a genius. Heck a ton of male and female characters got sidelined because they weren't special. Which is a whole different criticism of Kishi.
timetokill
Banned
hahahaha what? Max is nothing like a tomboy.
You're missing the forest for the trees. There's nothing wrong with Merida being a great archer, but there are lots of ways of showing that off. And that Pixar's decision to make it about her beating the boys ends up delivering a bit of an off note.
The lack of intention is the point of most of these concerns. Usually a writer has the best of intentions, but he had problems trying to express these intentions without screwing up. Look at Star Trek Voyager where the writing staff did their darnedest to make Janeway into a proper "strong female character" captain, and still ended up screwing up monumentally.
Ideally, you wouldn't have the story revolve around anyone at all. So it's still bad to have the story revolve around a different female character. It's only a lesser critcism because you're still presumably trying to build up a female character (even if it's not the right one).
Then it's a good thing that this isn't a list of rules for evaluating strong women.
UncleSporky
Member
Wait, ideally stories shouldn't revolve around either males or females? That seems excessive.
No, you're too caught up on gender on that point. It's more about who the protagonist is, and whether the story should revolve around someone other than her. I think that the examples in the Cracked article aren't the best, but the gist is that it feels like many of these prominent female roles exist to talk about a male character.
Technically she fails 2 of the 6 criteria since A) she is secondary to the main male lead (Richter) and B) her story is based around a male target (Dracula). In SOTN she loses another point as she literally gives Ricther her powers so he can finish off Dracula.
But on the plus side, not only is she a girlie girl that can easily defeat any adversary, she is completely unfazed when Dracula, the literal Prince of Darkness, wants to maker her his bride. Take that, Jessica Jones!
Technically she fails 2 of the 6 criteria since A) she is secondary to the main male lead (Richter) and B) her story is based around a male target (Dracula). In SOTN she loses another point as she literally gives Ricther her powers so he can finish off Dracula.
But on the plus side, not only is she a girlie girl that can easily defeat any adversary, she is completely unfazed when Dracula, the literal Prince of Darkness, wants to maker her his bride. Take that, Jessica Jones!
I don't watch anime, and I haven't played Castlevania in forever lol but I am sure there are a lot of women in anime/games that hit that mark. I was more talking live action tv and movies. Where it would be harder to 'sell' you know? I know a lot of the appeal of anime is basically the 'cute girls' and good stories, so it's easier to sell 'kick ass girle girl' in those instances
How do you think they failed?
A Link to the Past
Banned
And her one instance of strength, Super Princess Peach, is a role reversal, and therefore constitutes being strong at the expense of a man. She can only be a hero when the men have failed.
6/6.
Doesn't the very existence of Chris Hemsworth's character knock them all down to at the very least a 5/6?
Aaron Strife
Banned
Should female characters really be dinged for having romantic interests? That seems like a double standard.
It's like when people were complaining about Black Widow in Avengers 2 having a relationship with Bruce Banner. "Of course the woman is the only one with a romantic subplot!"
A) Every other Avenger has a romantic subplot either explored in their own movie (Iron Man with Pepper Potts, Cap with Agent Carter, Thor with Natalie Portman) or within Avengers 2 (Hulk, Hawkeye with his wife)
B) The one she was having a relationship with was another Avenger.
I'd actually go as far to say as its weird for a character not to have any sort of romantic interest, unless they're explicitly asexual. I get a broader complaint of shoehorning romance into movies that don't need it, and the way relationships are written can certainly be improved, but come on. You can give a female character a boyfriend.
It's like when people were complaining about Black Widow in Avengers 2 having a relationship with Bruce Banner. "Of course the woman is the only one with a romantic subplot!"
A) Every other Avenger has a romantic subplot either explored in their own movie (Iron Man with Pepper Potts, Cap with Agent Carter, Thor with Natalie Portman) or within Avengers 2 (Hulk, Hawkeye with his wife)
B) The one she was having a relationship with was another Avenger.
I'd actually go as far to say as its weird for a character not to have any sort of romantic interest, unless they're explicitly asexual. I get a broader complaint of shoehorning romance into movies that don't need it, and the way relationships are written can certainly be improved, but come on. You can give a female character a boyfriend.
To Far Away Times
Member
Alien/Aliens probably comes out looking pretty good here.
Yup.
Kind of the problem of Jessica Jones. But Jessica Jones is also supposed to be kind of a scumbag so...it still works.
A Link to the Past
Banned
For me, it's due to the fact that usually, if there is a woman on a team, there is either a romance subplot or audience expectations of such a thing. This exists for a lot of men too, but due to:
1. The propensity of these subplots among female characters, and
2. The high ratio of men to women in a team
There are more often going to be male characters who do not fall into that romance subplot trapping.
Not really? He's a secondary character at best, nowhere near sharing the same importance as any of these four.
The end goal does revolve around
saving him, as he becomes a literal dude in distress
This.
People get too wrapped up in getting the checkboxes of arbitrary criteria met, which is rarely the point of articles like the Cracked one. It's all about taking a step back and seeing how pervasive certain tropes and elements in media repeat themselves with certain types of characters, and women are often written with these prebaked traits. Why that is is a whole 'nuther can of worms.
Alcoremortis
Member
I tend to just use the metric: "Do women want to imagine they are this character?"
I think if a female character is so cool and interesting that women would like to imagine that they are the character, I think that's a pretty good indictor of how well written she is.
Like, Ripley is cool as fuck. Every woman would want to be her.
Other female action heroes try to do the same stuff, but just aren't interesting at all. Like the woman in Kingsman (can't even remember her name, but she became Lancelot). No woman is gonna cosplay her at a convention or talk about how much they liked her because she was forgettable and not cool.
I think if a female character is so cool and interesting that women would like to imagine that they are the character, I think that's a pretty good indictor of how well written she is.
Like, Ripley is cool as fuck. Every woman would want to be her.
Other female action heroes try to do the same stuff, but just aren't interesting at all. Like the woman in Kingsman (can't even remember her name, but she became Lancelot). No woman is gonna cosplay her at a convention or talk about how much they liked her because she was forgettable and not cool.
Zoe
Member
She also wasn't the main character--more like 5th from the top, at best.
The biggest problem was inconsistency. They would have her do something one episode and act like a completely different person in the next one (or sometimes even the same episode!) Part of this was the directive that Janeway has to be right all the time because she was supposed to be the "strong female character". Most of the rest stemmed on the showrunners not wanting to maintain continuity from episode to episode so very few consequences could be shown.
Yeah, a lot of the problematic material stems from men being portrayed as the norm, so any female characterization has to take that into consideration. That's probably why so many of Cracked's points are about relating the female character to male ones.
Alcoremortis
Member
Prince of Space
Banned
Based on this thread, I'm not sure OP has a firm grasp of what a tomboy actually is...
Buffy the Vampire Slayer ranks 6/6 in general, though some arguments can be made about certain parts of her story. She did not have a sexual trauma in her backstory, but the slayer's power being forced on a chosen girl is subtext that doesn't get called out until season 7. The only time her storyline was consumed by a man was Angel/Angelus, but that was mainly concentrated to the second half of season 2 with fallout in season 3. Everything else is balanced out by her friends, mom and sister. And the only time she could be considered a bitchy leader was for a few episodes in season 7.
Otherwise she passes everything else with ease. She was the slayer who held on to being a regular teenage girl. She can curbstomp monsters with her stylish yet affordable boots. She didn't have to share the lead role with any male character. The proposed Buffy animated series never got off the ground because the network wanted Buffy to share the lead role with Angel, and the creative folks felt that would lose the essence of the show.
Otherwise she passes everything else with ease. She was the slayer who held on to being a regular teenage girl. She can curbstomp monsters with her stylish yet affordable boots. She didn't have to share the lead role with any male character. The proposed Buffy animated series never got off the ground because the network wanted Buffy to share the lead role with Angel, and the creative folks felt that would lose the essence of the show.
I approve of this message
Yeah, I loved the show, it was really well done in most regards.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
The only potential issue with this is that it can lead to flawless characters.
I think that, if it makes thematic sense for any character in a given story to have embarrassing, shameful, or lame moments, then then female characters shouldn't be excluded from those.
Girls and boys both rule and drool in equal measures, it's worth reflecting that.
She also didn't have swords for feet.
Yeah, the inconsistency is annoying, but that's the nature of a show like Voyager (or TNG, for that matter.) I don't see it undermining the character, specifically as there are so many women nerds I know who really like Janeway as a character.
Also, I think it's one of those things people have amplified by retelling. I'm nearly through rematching the entire series and there's very few where Janeway actually acts like a completely different person. This is just fan argument about Tuvix extended to the entire series.
The problem with Jessica Jones had nothing to do with hitting checkboxes on a Cracked article and everything to do with constructing a story arc that couldn't last 13 full episodes.
mariachi507
Member
Am I crazy or does Halle Berry's Catwoman stand at 0/6?
She gives herself a tomboy haircut midway, so that's like 0.5/6.
No surprise though. Catwoman was a feminist superhero icon before anyone even heard of Black Widow.
John Kowalski
Banned
sayaka top griller
I don't know why people are bothering to apply a list of problematic writing commonly found in female action film heros on characters who aren't female action film heroes. You can draw a bit of a parallel from games where they cover the same ground as action films, but what's the point outside of that context?
You can check out the whole interview here: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
Ron D. Moore on "Equinox":
You can check out the whole interview here: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
But that's a lack of impact due to the episodic nature of the series, rather than Janeway being a different person from ep to ep. There was nothing wrong or even necessarily inarguably evil about Janeway killing Tuvix to bring back her two crew members; the problem was that four seasons later the Doctor mentions offhandedly that "as far as I know you've never killed one of my patients" and everyone's forgotten that divisive moment. But it's a structural issue, not really a character one.
If they'd made Voyager five years later I imagine a lot of issues with its premise would have been addressed (then again it might have gotten stuck in the grimdark phase of TV, so you can't win them all.)
PaulExcellent
Member
As trash as Gundam SEED is, Lacus Clyne only hits 1/6.
(Although everyone falls for that in the show since Kira Yamato is basically Jesus.)
(Although everyone falls for that in the show since Kira Yamato is basically Jesus.)
Slightly off topic, but...
I think it's important to create characters that are both flawed and powerful, but I am very annoyed at how often a powerful female character is automatically disregarded as a Mary Sue. After pretty much any movie that features a powerful female lead, there is always a slew of articles asking 'Is blank a Mary Sue?' Or some such.
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