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[JerryinSoCal]

Again, big difference between testers and Q/As. Testers just play games to find bugs. They’re the lowest employees in the company. Q/A are the ones doing full on testing of every pull request, feature, regression testing, making automated tests, etc. They’re often paid as much as developers.

Do we actually know if these people were legit QAs or more just testers?

Yeah it all depends on what exactly they were, if they were just normal Q/A that's entry level stuff that anyone can do, if it's something more involved and they were actually employees vs temp or contract employees that's another story. Sad for anyone to lose a job but if you are already classified as temporary there isn't much to complain about.

I will say the one good thing about working there at the time was people practically came to work in their pajamas, they wore sweat pants, shorts and t shirts etc. The people who worked at the actual devs treated the Q/A teams like garbage though, if people had some kind of grammatical error or made a punctuation mistake when reporting a bug it was alwasy pointed out in the reply lol. It was very petty and it seemed like the devs were insulted when a bug was found.

 

[Ozriel]

How dare they treat contract workers like contract workers. Everyone who gets a job should have it forever and the company should just keep employees on the payroll that they don't have work for since they have the money to do it.

Jesus I can't imagine any other industry where a dozen people get laid off as part of the standard upscaling and downscaling around a product release and it gets reported on every media site for that industry as a vile corporate act.

News flash, in the world of tech laying off a dozen extremely low level contract workers is nothing - big tech companies are routinely restructuring out hundreds of jobs every couple years based on revenue and market direction. You can be the best engineer in your company but if the product you're working on is canned due to some bad product decisions at the upper management / executive level or you get a new CEO who thinks a different sector is more valuable to invest in then you'll be laid off just the same as the low paid QA team in eastern europe. This is how every major corporate industry has functioned since the 80s.

Edit: That came out a little aggressive due to coffee overload, it's a bummer that people get laid off particularly at the end of the year and I guess there's nothing wrong with pointing out that some corporate practices are shitty even if they've always been that way. I'm just pointing out that it happens in almost every revenue driven industry (and in most cases is a lot worse than this) but is just accepted as part of the game you have to play to work in those industries.

except in this case, the product they’re overseeing is making a LOT of money.
Also, there’s the bit about them being led to believe they had a salary raise coming.

 

[Jim Ryan other Clone]

My god reading this thread I get the impression that working in America is like working in Greece.... If the boss is not feeling good one day he can just fire you because he feels like it. Thanks god I live in a country that bullshit like that is very difficult to happen.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

What better time to fire workers than the weeks before Christmas? Its great for morale. Really shows how much you care!

 

[nush]

What better time to fire workers than the weeks before Christmas? Its great for morale. Really shows how much you care!

One months notice, which means I assume two months salary payments before going into the start of the new year where the job market is hot. People camp out at a job until the holidays are over and then switch in the new year which means there's a lot of open positions that need filling and a lot of new projects. I'm being pragmatic of course.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Their once best FPS house, now resorted to ash after years of just DLC/skin tooling support.

 

[wvnative]

Activision determined to make EA look like the greatest publisher ever huh?

 

[HTK]

I left the industry because it's immature for someone that wants to have a stable income/career. Turn over at any position can be 2-3 years. Knowing that studios all over the place means you would probably have to move at some point every 5 years. There are outliers of course but it's for small % of folks at the top.

Seems like nothing has really changed.

 

[ReBurn]

If your QAs are working at the same level of technical effort / complexity as your product engineers then you have incompetent product engineers. Good product engineers are highly paid / valued specifically because their work directly and massively impacts the effort required for the QA testers downstream.


No they're the result of poor product engineering teams working off tempo from the QA teams and creating too many new problems too quickly for the QA team to effectively identify and prioritize. And that's probably the the result of poor middle management.

If you spend the money to hire highly skilled product and test engineers then you don't need to spend money hiring massive highly skilled QA teams. That's why product and test engineers are valued 10x higher than QA testers, it's just basic economics and process management.

It's also why manual testing is typically contracted as opposed to being long term paid staff. The need for manual tes has become cyclical as result of investment in test engineering, so companies tend to outsource it or contract it to maximize staffing flexibility.

 

[Barlow]

 

[Skifi28]

I hear there's a few openings at rockstar for GTA definitive.

 

[The Cockatrice]

I hear there's a few openings at rockstar for GTA definitive.

Doubt it. AAA games no longer need to pay Q&A testers when they have consumers* to do it for free.

*idiots

 

[dorkimoe]

Walking off the job in protest during layoffs…
So they are doing the job for managers. Watch them just lock the door and call it a day lol

 

[Barlow]

Walking off the job in protest during layoffs…
So they are doing the job for managers. Watch them just lock the door and call it a day lol

Quality assurance testers and other developers at Raven Software, the Activision studio in charge of the extremely lucrative free-to-play battle royale Call of Duty: Warzone, are walking out on the job today to protest surprise layoffs that were foisted on staff beginning last Friday. The group told Kotaku in a statement it has only one demand: give all QA testers, including those just laid off, full-time positions.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I thought it would be about keeping their contracts jobs and the pay bump Activission told them they'd get. Not counter it with FT job demands.

Adios QA testers.

I dont know how many of the QA testers are contract or not (but the gist of these articles it seems this kind of job they most/all are). But good luck trying to get corporate to convert jobs from contract/PT/Temp to FT. Not as easy as you think.

If I was them, I'd be brushing up the resume in the meantime.

 

[chaseroni]

Which one are they? Vanguard or Cold war?

Cause cod games have been BUGGY AF lately

Cyberpunk even tried to claim they didn't catch most of the bugs people ran into during their "testing" after launch

Didn't CDPR make the devs do the testing at home?...lol
I think I remember reading that

 

[Hezekiah]

They should make Bobby give them all one year's salary. Not like he can't afford it.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Didn't CDPR make the devs do the testing at home?...lol
I think I remember reading that

Maybe. But if CDPR had covid lockdown protocols, nothing you can do but WFH.

Our entire office has been on WFH status since March 2020. The latest guesstimate is we'll be going back in Q1 2022, but so far heard nothing. Our execs have been saying that every quarter for the past year and keeps bumping to the next quarter. I'm going to assume we'll go back at some point, but who knows when.

 

[chaseroni]

Maybe. But if CDPR had covid lockdown protocols, nothing you can do but WFH.

I mean that's fine, WFH is whatever I just thought it was funny they didn't have an actual QA test team for one of the most hyped up games of all time

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I mean that's fine, WFH is whatever I just thought it was funny they didn't have an actual QA test team for one of the most hyped up games of all time

Oh, is that what you mean? I misunderstood. If they didnt have a formal QA team thats nuts! lol

 

[MiguelItUp]

If you look at their stocks, their shares shot up around the time the layoffs happened.

This kind of stuff is gross, but again, this stuff isn't new. Especially for QA.

It's pretty wise to expect to be let go if you're contract when a project wrapped or is about to wrap. If you're asked to renew your contract, then great! But I personally would say it's better to prepare for the worst just in case. If it doesn't happen, great!

If you're actually hired on as a full-time employee, then you at least have the safety of knowing that you're good. I mean, as long as you follow the standard expectations of being a "good employee."

But being "told" one thing and having something else happen will always suck. But, until you get it in writing, confirmed, etc. It should always be taken with a grain of salt.

I thought it would be about keeping their contracts jobs and the pay bump Activission told them they'd get. Not counter it with FT job demands.

Adios QA testers.

I dont know how many of the QA testers are contract or not (but the gist of these articles it seems this kind of job they most/all are). But good luck trying to get corporate to convert jobs from contract/PT/Temp to FT. Not as easy as you think.

If I was them, I'd be brushing up the resume in the meantime.

A lot of devs (primarily AAA) over the last few years typically hire as contract first. If said employees and dev excels, then by the time those contracts end, they'll be renewed or brought over as full-time employees. BUT, it all depends on the practice of the developer to be honest. Activision, or anyone associated with them and their work, seems like the type that would bring in TONS of QA per project, then when it wraps, can them, and then hire new ones for the next project. Rinse and repeat.

QA has always been treated pretty rough, especially in AAA. But it's always been the best first step to take to get into the industry.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If you look at their stocks, their shares shot up around the time the layoffs happened.

This kind of stuff is gross, but again, this stuff isn't new. Especially for QA.

It's pretty wise to expect to be let go if you're contract when a project wrapped or is about to wrap. If you're asked to renew your contract, then great! But I personally would say it's better to prepare for the worst just in case. If it doesn't happen, great!

If you're actually hired on as a full-time employee, then you at least have the safety of knowing that you're good. I mean, as long as you follow the standard expectations of being a "good employee."

But being "told" one thing and having something else happen will always suck. But, until you get it in writing, confirmed, etc. It should always be taken with a grain of salt.


A lot of devs (primarily AAA) over the last few years typically hire as contract first. If said employees and dev excels, then by the time those contracts end, they'll be renewed or brought over as full-time employees. BUT, it all depends on the practice of the developer to be honest. Activision, or anyone associated with them and their work, seems like the type that would bring in TONS of QA per project, then when it wraps, can them, and then hire new ones for the next project. Rinse and repeat.

QA has always been treated pretty rough, especially in AAA. But it's always been the best first step to take to get into the industry.

Yup, and that sucks about contract work for gaming. The workload seems so uneven it looks like it's better to redo the cycle then have QA guys stick around and see if they can do something else until their roles are heavily needed again.

But other jobs are cyclical too.

Our company hires contract people too. For a couple months at fiscal year end, we sometimes hire for a few months outsiders that help reconcile admin and tax reports. When its done they disappear. Nobody even gets to know them.

And some people are hired on contract at 6 month or yearly deals and just keep getting renewed forever.

The key reason why companies dont want too many FT people is because they cost more (benefits, sev package, holiday pay, bonus etc....). Contractors can be cut when it's over with no fuss. And contract workers are not counted as official company headcount. The more contract workers the lower the employees so it makes the revenue/employee ratio look better. Summer students are the same. Not sure about PT workers though. I'm going to assume they count since all the retailers with 200,000 employees are going to be made up a lot from PT. I've never worked in an office that had 20 hr /week PT. It's always been FT and contract.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Yup, and that sucks about contract work for gaming. The workload seems so uneven it looks like it's better to redo the cycle then have QA guys stick around and see if they can do something else until their roles are heavily needed again.

But other jobs are cyclical too.

Our company hires contract people too. For a couple months at fiscal year end, we sometimes hire for a few months outsiders that help reconcile admin and tax reports. When its done they disappear. Nobody even gets to know them.

And some people are hired on contract at 6 month or yearly deals and just keep getting renewed forever.

The key reason why companies dont want too many FT people is because they cost more (benefits, sev package, holiday pay, bonus etc....). Contractors can be cut when it's over with no fuss. And contract workers are not counted as official company headcount. The more contract workers the lower the employees so it makes the revenue/employee ratio look better. Summer students are the same. Not sure about PT workers though. I'm going to assume they count since all the retailers with 200,000 employees are going to be made up a lot from PT. I've never worked in an office that had 20 hr /week PT. It's always been FT and contract.

The last studio I was at for almost 5 years had some pretty rough moments in the QA department. While I was in it as a tester, as well as a senior. Then even later when I left the department and migrated to Community. But it all revolved around this topic. Not to mention a lot of the employees claimed they were talked to and promised things that, well, never happened. Which sucks, sure, but some of those employees also made some bad decisions, dragged their feet, etc. You can't expect a company to want to take you in full-time if you're underperforming, not vibing with the culture, etc.

Contract, like you said, is cheaper. It's also an easy way for companies to sift through the candidates. I know that may sound negative, but, it's much easier to release employees that are contract, as opposed to full-time, etc. The bar for hiring QA can be PRETTY low, so you have to expect them to draw a line somewhere and be able to use caution. I mean, when I first started, all you needed was a high school degree and some passion. That could still be the case for a few devs these days. People can and will lie in interviews, unfortunately. But their performance and work ethic can't hide once working, haha. Hell, I was involved in the hiring process and there were a couple of times where a candidate seemed like a great person, great experience, etc. But then once hired they were completely opposite of everything they alluded to in their interviews. It's rough.

 

[Elias]

this same forum makes corny jokes about QA devs being laid off and treated horribly but wonders why games are buggier and buggier. strange.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The last studio I was at for almost 5 years had some pretty rough moments in the QA department. While I was in it as a tester, as well as a senior. Then even later when I left the department and migrated to Community. But it all revolved around this topic. Not to mention a lot of the employees claimed they were talked to and promised things that, well, never happened. Which sucks, sure, but some of those employees also made some bad decisions, dragged their feet, etc. You can't expect a company to want to take you in full-time if you're underperforming, not vibing with the culture, etc.

Contract, like you said, is cheaper. It's also an easy way for companies to sift through the candidates. I know that may sound negative, but, it's much easier to release employees that are contract, as opposed to full-time, etc. The bar for hiring QA can be PRETTY low, so you have to expect them to draw a line somewhere and be able to use caution. I mean, when I first started, all you needed was a high school degree and some passion. That could still be the case for a few devs these days. People can and will lie in interviews, unfortunately. But their performance and work ethic can't hide once working, haha. Hell, I was involved in the hiring process and there were a couple of times where a candidate seemed like a great person, great experience, etc. But then once hired they were completely opposite of everything they alluded to in their interviews. It's rough.

Not just contractors lied to. FT too.

I know people who moved companies promised a higher level job if you come over and wait it out. Then they'll grant you a rung up the ladder. It's coming. Well, it's been a year. Where is it? Person feels like they wasted their time.

As for anyone in a contract job bummed out. It's not necessarily you being the problem. I've seen good contractors held up wanting FT tenure. And I've seen good contractors get it and join the company in an official way.

It all comes down to the headcount game. Also, not just corporate ratios. But the game of perception. If boss in department A gets 5 contractors converted into FT employees getting pay and benefits bump and stability, then manager in department B will tell HR where's my FT employees? Then it becomes a tug of war behind the scenes for the fight for FT.

And from what I've seen, official headcount bump is done by the top cheese. Not top HR man or woman. CEO. And he or she typically likes to run a lean ship with snazzy metrics. So anyone thinking "just convert contractors to FT, what's the big deal?" it's not that easy.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Not just contractors lied to. FT too.

I know people who moved companies promised a higher level job if you come over and wait it out. Then they'll grant you a rung up the ladder. It's coming. Well, it's been a year. Where is it? Person feels like they wasted their time.

As for anyone in a contract job bummed out. It's not necessarily you being the problem. I've seen good contractors held up wanting FT tenure. And I've seen good contractors get it and join the company in an official way.

It all comes down to the headcount game. Also, not just corporate ratios. But the game of perception. If boss in department A gets 5 contractors converted into FT employees getting pay and benefits bump and stability, then manager in department B will tell HR where's my FT employees? Then it becomes a tug of war behind the scenes for the fight for FT.

And from what I've seen, official headcount bump is done by the top cheese. Not top HR man or woman. CEO. And he or she typically likes to run a lean ship with snazzy metrics. So anyone thinking "just convert contractors to FT, what's the big deal?" it's not that easy.

Oh yeah definitely. That's just people talking too much, making promises they shouldn't, etc. Very true, in the end, it is headcount and financials.

Yup, never, ever that easy.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Oh yeah definitely. That's just people talking too much, making promises they shouldn't, etc. Very true, in the end, it is headcount and financials.

Yup, never, ever that easy.

Totally. I didnt mean you were thinking that.

Just stating some stuff so people understand how financials and headcount work. I bet many people dont even know contractors dont tally into official company headcount.

 

[TheShocker]

Their contract was up and not renewed. And to be honest, Raven has done a shitty job with Warzone. The whole group should be removed from work on that game.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Having 3+ developers on one game is kinda extraordinarily.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Totally. I didnt mean you were thinking that.

Just stating some stuff so people understand how financials and headcount work. I bet many people dont even know contractors dont tally into official company headcount.

Oh yeah, no doubt. It's often surprising how unaware folks are regarding things like that.

 

[Barlow]

 

[manfestival]

This is to ensure that the Ol'Bobster Kotick gets his bonus.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So skimming the Tweets (there's more on Twitter), on Friday Dec 3 Raven leadership said there would be some cuts and to hold tight as some positive news is coming.

The QA team didn't believe them and staged a walkout.

Turns out Activison had planned to convert 500 jobs to FT in the coming months which they announced now.

And lets face it. 500 is a fucking lot of new FT conversions. Its not like Bobby Kotick made that up from scratch Saturday afternoon.

 

[SlimySnake]

Vanguard sold 40% fewer copies than last year's CoD. Of course there were going to be layoffs. QA is the easiest place to start since game developers are a hot commodity right now.

Disappointed for people who lost their jobs before Christmas but I would never take a job at Activision, let alone move to a different state for them.

 

[MiguelItUp]

So skimming the Tweets (there's more on Twitter), on Friday Dec 3 Raven leadership said there would be some cuts and to hold tight as some positive news is coming.

The QA team didn't believe them and staged a walkout.

Turns out Activison had planned to convert 500 jobs to FT in the coming months which they announced now.

And lets face it. 500 is a fucking lot of new FT conversions. Its not like Bobby Kotick made that up from scratch Saturday afternoon.

Yeaaaaaaah. I mean, standard procedures for projects like COD IMO. But holy shit 500 is insane.

Vanguard sold 40% fewer copies than last year's CoD. Of course there were going to be layoffs. QA is the easiest place to start since game developers are a hot commodity right now.

Disappointed for people who lost their jobs before Christmas but I would never take a job at Activision, let alone move to a different state for them.

Exactly. Again, very standard for any dev connected to a huge IP like COD. It's unfortunate, but true.

Agreed. I've known too many people that moved states for QA and it didn't work out. But fortunately they were in areas where they had other options. Another smart thing to look out for. The ones that DID have situations that worked out for them went to indie/AA studios.

 

[JimRyanGOAT]

Didn't CDPR make the devs do the testing at home?...lol
I think I remember reading that

Ya no idea, but they basically said oops sorry didnt know the game was that buggy

Problem is most QA's run tests from a code standpoint and often ignore actually playtesting the game like a real user would

 

[melekind]

I don't understand why such a sudden firing of a whole department will not affect the normal operation of the company

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Whoever played WZ knows Raven's QA was poor but I doubt that's the reason they're going out.

 

[nush]

But it's always been the best first step to take to get into the industry.

I don't even think that's the case any more not like it was decades ago. Sure if you could get to lead tester perhaps, but there's very few of those positions and you're working with so many other testers eying that position. I think most testers burn out before even getting the chance or the project ends and they are out the door and they'll just hire new testers.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I don't even think that's the case any more not like it was decades ago. Sure if you could get to lead tester perhaps, but there's very few of those positions and you're working with so many other testers eying that position. I think most testers burn out before even getting the chance or the project ends and they are out the door and they'll just hire new testers.

Oh, no, it definitely is. It's honestly just a studio by studio basis. Unfortunately not every studio is going to work on a contract to hire approach. Of course areas to move up, as well.

QA is extremely trying, especially if you are trying to make moves. But it depends on a lot of variables.

A lot of testers do. So many people think of QA as something else than it really is. Repetitive and sometimes very tedious work.

 

[Shao Kahn]

QA shouldnt be a position. Their software devs/leads should use something like TDD to ensure quality

 

[rimamiles]

Thanks for this really interesting information!

 

[IbizaPocholo]

Raven Software strike continues as staff report no response from Activision management

Update, January 6, 2022: In a statement sent to GamesIndustry.biz, an Activision spokesperson said that Raven Software'…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Update, January 6, 2022: In a statement sent to GamesIndustry.biz, an Activision spokesperson said that Raven Software's management has been speaking to employees.

"Activision is deeply committed to the wellbeing of all of our teams, including our QA workforce," the statement read. "Raven leadership has engaged in dialogue with its staff to hear concerns and explain the company's overall investment in development resources. As previously announced, we are growing our overall investment in development and operations resources and converting nearly 500 temporary workers to full-time employees across our studios, the largest conversion in Activision's history.

"For the 12 temporary workers at Raven whose agreements were not extended, we provided an extended notice period, included payment for the two-week holiday break, and will be working directly with those that need relocation assistance. Raven is full of people dedicated to improving the culture at Activision, and we look forward to partnering with employees to do that work together."

Original story, January 5, 2022: As the Raven Software employee strike enters its third week, staff claim Activision Blizzard's leadership has not been in touch regarding their demands.

In a message relayed via ABK Workers Alliance's Twitter, Raven Software's QA workers said they have not had "any communication from leadership about [their] singular demand: all members of the Raven QA department must be offered full time positions, including those who were let go."

The message was also sent to Activision's management, detailing talking points they would like to discuss.

"We have emphasised that our demonstration is done with the best interests of the studio (and all projects on which the studio works) in mind," the letter read. "The downsizing of the Raven QA department without input from anyone within the department is concerning to us and others throughout the company. In the interest of making positive change for Raven, we would like to reach out to leadership to discuss the current situation."

Specific talking points include the employees' demand and "expectations from both side," relocation packages for staff who moved to Wisconsin (members of the Raven team were asked to relocate to Madison, Wisconsin -- where the studio is based -- prior to the layoffs), and the "context of the situation from leadership's side," including the goals they envision for Raven's QA department.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Raven Software strike continues as staff report no response from Activision management

Update, January 6, 2022: In a statement sent to GamesIndustry.biz, an Activision spokesperson said that Raven Software'…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Update, January 6, 2022: In a statement sent to GamesIndustry.biz, an Activision spokesperson said that Raven Software's management has been speaking to employees.

"Activision is deeply committed to the wellbeing of all of our teams, including our QA workforce," the statement read. "Raven leadership has engaged in dialogue with its staff to hear concerns and explain the company's overall investment in development resources. As previously announced, we are growing our overall investment in development and operations resources and converting nearly 500 temporary workers to full-time employees across our studios, the largest conversion in Activision's history.

"For the 12 temporary workers at Raven whose agreements were not extended, we provided an extended notice period, included payment for the two-week holiday break, and will be working directly with those that need relocation assistance. Raven is full of people dedicated to improving the culture at Activision, and we look forward to partnering with employees to do that work together."

A company converting 500 contract workers to FT, plus giving some extra perks to 12 who are let go, including extra pay after their contract was over.

And Activision employees still complain. Talk about entitlement.

Name one company that will do this for contract workers.

 

[ReBurn]

Were the first two weeks of their strike the same two weeks of holiday break that the 12 people were paid for?

 

[Knightime_X]

QA is that job they hyped in the 90s as if the coolest ever.

hEY GuyS, WaNna pLay gamES AND Get pAiD??? Be a game tester!!

 

[MrFunSocks]

QA is that job they hyped in the 90s as if the coolest ever.

hEY GuyS, WaNna pLay gamES AND Get pAiD??? Be a game tester!!

You just described a game tester, not a QA.

 

[Knightime_X]

You just described a game tester, not a QA.

Same thing. They both report bugs.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Same thing. They both report bugs.

Not the same thing at all. QA do a lot more than find bugs. Testers just find bugs.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

QA is that job they hyped in the 90s as if the coolest ever.

hEY GuyS, WaNna pLay gamES AND Get pAiD??? Be a game tester!!

I know a guy who used to work at Nintendo. He hated it. When I'd ask him if he plays the games, he says no he's too busy doing office work (sales job). A very bureaucratic company where Japan HQ calls the shots and the cheapest company he's ever worked at with hardly any employees so everyone has to do everything. On the plus side, he said he'd get tons of trinkets and shit to furnish his office.

Asian companies are like that. I know people who worked at LG and Samsung too and it's no different. You got people in Korea doing conference calls making all the decisions.