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All The Last of Us 2 leaks/spoilers in here and nowhere else.

REE Machine

Banned
The insurmountable problem with Abby is not JUST that, it's that the thing she wants revenge for is let's say... divisive at best. Had it been the original plan of her being the daughter of someone Joel killed in his hunter days, then she would by her nature be more relatable.

I have noticed a big correlation between people who think that Joel did the wrong thing at the end of TLoU1 and people who really end up liking the game. I do think that the game as a whole needed more Jackson, and more Santa Barbara and a fuckton less Seattle. Seattle needed MAYBE three days between the two of them, but it's insane... all of Abby's character development her relationship with Lev, how she was changed by the death of her friends, ALL of it happens off screen. We see her redemptive journey for about five minutes before cutting back to Ellie, who suffers from the same problem. The structure of this game is an absolute terror.
I dont think its divisive for what she wants revenge for. Joel went on a war torn path and killed every firefly in his way before they took the most important thing away from him, she went on a wore torn path because he TOOK the most important thing from her. Joel almost lost everything and went berserk, she lost everything and went berserk.
 

REE Machine

Banned
That would severly impact the player being able to make an emotional connection to what Ellie feels like during the end of the jackson chapter and her revenge trip through three days of Seattle. I think it is vital to hate Abby as much as possible when you start your journey.

The beginning of the game is less about important story developments but rather something like a "previously on" recap of the most important moment of TLOU1 and it gives player a last chance of playing Joel and connecting to him through the beauty of the scenery (and also the beauty of the graphics of the game). It makes what happens a couple hour laters (gameplay time) a lot harder to digest.

The more and deeper I think about the game (after finishing it) the better I find the structering. Even though it's a bit unclean it's still the best way to have the desired emotional impact. It is the best thing about the game. It breaks my heart every time I see it. It breaks my heart just thinking about it. After I finished the game I was lying in bed for an hour digesting the game and especially the very last scenes. The game consumed me and a game never made me feel that way and never impacted me as much as TLOU2 did and then it was clear to me I just played my favourite game of all time and I will do it all over again.
You still get that emotional pull because its the cycle of violence sadly, regardless of what joel did ellie loves him and we live her even though she has killed numerous people and has done terrible things as well much like tess says in the world of the last of us "we are shitty people"
Every is shitty in the last of us including ellie
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
FWVsanL.jpg


I'm glad I wasn't the only one annoyed by this. At some point I was actually waiting for someone on a wheelchair to join the patrol.

Angry Joe: They put a pregnant woman to on patrol on the front line!
Other people: I can't believe they did that. That's bad writing.

Reality: She wasn't on patrol. Manny and Abby were asked to go to the FOB to meet up with Issac. Mel (pregnant woman) had an assignment at the FOB as part of her regular rotation. She was only traveling because Manny and wanted her and Abby to talk.

You can also talk to an NPC right after the attacked.

Woman: Heard about your ambush.
Woman: Where'd they hit you?
Abby: Uh, right around here.
Abby: Near the warehouses.
Woman: Shit.
Abby: They keep slipping past our lines.


They expected the route to be secure...

Seems like people are letting others interpret things for them. lol
 
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xrnzaaas

Gold Member
Angry Joe: They put a pregnant woman to on patrol on the front line!
Other people: I can't believe they did that. That's bad writing.

Reality: She wasn't on patrol. Manny and Abby were asked to go to the FOB to meet up with Issac. Mel (pregnant woman) had an assignment at the FOB as part of her regular rotation. She was only traveling because Manny and wanted her and Abby to talk.

You can also talk to an NPC right after the attacked.

Woman: Heard about your ambush.
Woman: Where'd they hit you?
Abby: Uh, right around here.
Abby: Near the warehouses.
Woman: Shit.
Abby: They keep slipping past our lines.


They expected the route to be secure...

Seems like people are letting others interpret things for them. lol
I don't care if this was an official patrol or not. Going outside while they could be attacked by the infected or by the Scars at any moment seems way to risky for a woman in such an advanced stage of pregnancy. I dunno, if I were running a postapocalyptic base I wouldn't allow pregnant women to go outside no matter what. Giving birth to healthy babies seems like one of the top priorities after the civilization has collapsed.


Generally I think you disregard how much pregnant women can do and just arent couch potatoes
I know fully well that pregnant women don't become totally useless, but there are some risks you shouldn't take to protect the baby. I mean we know from the Stadium mission that there's ton of real work to be done in the base, it's not like she wouldn't have anything to do until the birth.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I don't care if this was an official patrol or not. Going outside while they could be attacked by the infected or by the Scars at any moment seems way to risky for a woman in such an advanced stage of pregnancy. I dunno, if I were running a postapocalyptic base I wouldn't allow pregnant women to go outside no matter what. Giving birth to healthy babies seems like one of the top priorities after the civilization has collapsed.

So then it's not a patrol..

They asked her to stay, but she wanted to go anyway.

One of the top priorities is also survival. She's one of the few medics the W.L.F has and they were preparing for an attack on the Scars.

In terms of the story: Her wanting to go and Abby and Manny wanting to stay both makes sense.
 
Finished the game a few days ago and absolutely loved it. 10/10 for me (which I know around here puts me in the minority). Powerful stuff, indeed.

Some criticisms: the game could've been a bit shorter. Abby's section could have been 1/2 the length. I also found Abby's part a bit jarring at first, but soon got used to it and actually appreciated seeing just how Abby's loss had affected her life; she was just as consumed with the need for revenge as Ellie, basically acting as a mirror. Even before she killed Joel she had lost Owen and perhaps others.

In the end, both Ellie and Abby both lost a great deal, showing just how pointless seeking revenge was.

The climatic part for me when Ellie stopped short of drowning Abby was incredible. I didn't want either of those two girls to die by the end and it was good to see that Ellie was unable to go through with it.

I can understand some being disappointed with Joel not appearing and the angle Naughty Dog chose for the game, any else might have come across as pedestrian, uninspired, and retreading familiar ground that the original game already covered.
 

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
I'm surprised at what a huge divide there is between normal game journalists and the Youtube reviewers. Almost all the normal game critics have bent over backwards to praise the game as a masterpiece. Whereas almost everyone on Youtube seems to hate the game (or at least think the story and writing stink).

I wonder if this will cause the normal game journalists to question themselves. (haha, j/k)

Why would game journalists question their checks? That's probably the difference between you tubers and journos
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Angry Joe: They put a pregnant woman to on patrol on the front line!
Other people: I can't believe they did that. That's bad writing.

Reality: She wasn't on patrol. Manny and Abby were asked to go to the FOB to meet up with Issac. Mel (pregnant woman) had an assignment at the FOB as part of her regular rotation. She was only traveling because Manny and wanted her and Abby to talk.

You can also talk to an NPC right after the attacked.

Woman: Heard about your ambush.
Woman: Where'd they hit you?
Abby: Uh, right around here.
Abby: Near the warehouses.
Woman: Shit.
Abby: They keep slipping past our lines.


They expected the route to be secure...

Seems like people are letting others interpret things for them. lol

Even Abby tells Mel she could stay if she asks, meaning that even Abby knew it was a dumb idea to have a pregnant woman traveling in the open in a world full of millions of zombies and when you are at war with a powerful sect.

But seems like defenders of the game have to do the most ridiculous damage control no matter what.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Even Abby tells Mel she could stay if she asks, meaning that even Abby knew it was a dumb idea to have a pregnant woman traveling in the open in a world full of millions of zombies and when you are at war with a powerful sect.

But seems like defenders of the game have to do the most ridiculous damage control no matter what.
That's the purpose of the scene.. Guys complain about "Bad writing" yet don't understand simple story structure.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
We know the purpose of the scene, that’s why it’s so dumb and poorly written.

You don’t let your most precious doctor who is pregnant go traveling in the open apocalyptic world with just 2 guys. It’s dumb.
Claims to know the purpose of the scene, but gets the fact that she was not on patrol.

You guys are making it too easy that you guys didn't understand the story. It's funny this is coming from people who claim to know the difference between "good writing" and "bad writing."
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Claims to know the purpose of the scene, but gets the fact that she was not on patrol.

Traveling = patrol?

For someone who claims others don’t understand the game, you can’t even understand such a simple sentence.

It really makes you think.


You guys are making it too easy that you guys didn't understand the story. It's funny this is coming from people who claim to know the difference between "good writing" and "bad writing

You are just mad you can’t defend this mess with not even an ounce of objectivity and logic. You are just basically throwing ad hominems.

“You people you just don’t get it!”
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Traveling = patrol?

For someone who claims others don’t understand the game, you can’t even understand such a simple sentence.

It really makes you think.




You are just mad you can’t defend this mess with not even an ounce of objectivity and logic. You are just basically throwing ad hominems.

“You people you just don’t get it!”

Looks like you're upset that I'm pointing out the fact that you guys missed a simple plot. lol

Patrol=/=Traveling

I know many haters just interpret most of the scenes based on what others have told them.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Claims to know the purpose of the scene, but gets the fact that she was not on patrol.

You guys are making it too easy that you guys didn't understand the story. It's funny this is coming from people who claim to know the difference between "good writing" and "bad writing."

Yeah its interesting how consistently some people miss the point of major story beats even when its explained in dialogue.

That said I think the main difference between people who like and dislike the story are that the latter have difficulty with the game's refusal to commit to traditional good vs evil tropes. Joel's death is unforgivable because he was a goodie and the fireflies are baddies! Ellie is "ruined" by the story even though what she is doing is shown to be her thinking that's what Joel would do in her shoes until it eventually breaks her, and as for Abby... hoo boy she's damned even though almost her entire arc is one of redemption.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Yeah its interesting how consistently some people miss the point of major story beats even when its explained in dialogue.

That said I think the main difference between people who like and dislike the story are that the latter have difficulty with the game's refusal to commit to traditional good vs evil tropes. Joel's death is unforgivable because he was a goodie and the fireflies are baddies! Ellie is "ruined" by the story even though what she is doing is shown to be her thinking that's what Joel would do in her shoes until it eventually breaks her, and as for Abby... hoo boy she's damned even though almost her entire arc is one of redemption.


Ellie runs off in TLOU 1 after she finds out that Joel wants to hand her over to Tommy.

Her decision to run off was stupid.

1. They just got ambushed.
2. And there's infected all across the world.

When Joel finds her, she's sitting near a window reading a journal. Joel acknowledges this by telling Ellie that her decision was stupid. This is far more irrational than Mel's decision in TLOU2, but people look over this because Ellie is young and kids often make dumb decisions. However, Ellie has been in this world long enough to know how dangerous this world is.


What they don't know is that the world is not perfect and characters aren't going to always make the right or safest decision.
 
The worst thing your narrative can do is have characters acknowledge a character's decision was a poor decision, this clues many other people into that fact and characters making poor decisions is CLEARLY bad writing, I mean, no real people make poor life choices!
 

Ellery

Member
You still get that emotional pull because its the cycle of violence sadly, regardless of what joel did ellie loves him and we live her even though she has killed numerous people and has done terrible things as well much like tess says in the world of the last of us "we are shitty people"
Every is shitty in the last of us including ellie

Hard to say that for every individual person I guess.
As for my case I played the game completely blind (no leaks, no spoilers) and Joel's death scene at the beginning of the game crushed me and made me violently hate Abby and her group so much that I wanted to feel exactly like I felt during the first half of the game (and Ellie as well) and for me knowing anything more than I already knew at that time would've heavily impacted my motivation and enjoyment of the game.

For the cycle of violence it is important to have blind hate and not understand the other person's perspective. If we knew about Abby's background then we would have less motivation to hunt her down as a player
 

Bankai

Member
So.. I just finished TLOU2 and I was looking forward to finally spending some time in this topic. But damn.. it's quite toxic in here :messenger_fearful:

There I go: I absolutely loved the game! I respect Naughty Dog so much for telling the story they wanted to tell, just like I respect what they did back in part 1. The fact that part 2 turned out to be a revenge-story (with forgiveness in the end) caught me completely by surprise. I think the most of us (hehe) expected Part 2 to dig deeper into the relationship between Ellie and Joel. I think it's fantastic that Naughty Dog did the unexpected and shocked us with an early death of 1 of its main characters. The flashbacks were only more powerful because of it, going back to Joel and Ellie.

I experienced so many emotional highs and lows together with both Ellie and Abby, there really isn't a game quite like it.

I wonder.. Why don't I "get" all the controversy around Abby and Lev? I think both characters are amazing and well-written. I hated Abby to the core before starting her story-arc, which was such a daring move on Naught Dogs part. A "good" character moves me, whether that is through love or hate. It's just like that when watching movies for me; I want to FEEL something, there's nothing worse than a bland, dull movie or game.
I was so confused when it came to (one of the) final confrontations between Abby and Ellie, I was feeling resentment and empathy for the both of em!
I also didn't the characters were "forced" in there, to service some political agenda or some bullshit. I think the world-building and storytelling was awesome.

I won't be playing this game on PS4pro again, I'll wait for my PS5 to arrive to start NG+

Don't I have any feedback, was everything fantastic then? Nah, of course there was some I didn't love:
I was kinda exhausted/drained at the end, the game was a little too long IMO. They could've easily shaved around 5hours off and the impact would have been the same. Also, some decisions made by the characters were kinda stupid, but hey - people are stupid in real life as well. So I don't blame Naughty Dog for portraying the flaws of human nature ;)
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force


Calls out a lot of the plot contrivances among other problems. :p
tiNrNJr.jpg


Weird. He says it's not believable for allowing Abby to survive because she kills NPCs throughout her journey.

W.L.F and Scars are trained to kill on sight.

Ellie didn't want to kill Mel or Owen, but she was forced to after Owen tried to get the gun away from her.

Ellie says during the play through that the W.L.F are kill on sight but not Abby and her friends.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
Weird. He says it's not believable for allowing Abby to survive because she kills NPCs throughout her journey.

W.L.F and Scars are trained to kill on sight.

Ellie didn't want to kill Mel or Owen, but she was forced to after Owen tried to get the gun away from her.

Ellie says during the play through that the W.L.F are kill on sight but not Abby and her friends.
Maybe that's why players might not feel so bad about the killings since most of the time it's in self defense.
 

Dr Kaneda

Member
Calls out a lot of the plot contrivances among other problems. :p
tiNrNJr.jpg

Lmao, so many of these a petty nitpicks that can easily be rationally explained.

1) Plenty of service people wear their gear far outside of their "barracks/territory". Also when you're in the middle of literal apocalypse I think it's more than rational to wear the most durable gear you have on to hand/not be fussy about what you wear. It's not like they were sneaking into enemy territory that knew who they were, we were in wyoming which is a 1000 miles away. Why would they be worried they'd know who the WLF were?

2) Again, Wyoming to Seattle is 1000 miles from each other. You can get to it by crossing through a combination of 3 different states. Why would they cross paths???

3) Why is it a "contrivance" for Jordan to assume the prisoner he tied up would remain tied up?

4) Yeah this is fair enough

5) Again, I don't know how subjectively assuming a characters motivations without any basis for doing so is grounds to call it an objective "contrivance". That's not what a "contrivance" is.

6)
i) There's a raging storm outside and it's March. In Seattle. I'm not even from the US and I know Seattle get's pretty cold. Of course she'd be wearing a jacket, lol.
ii) Yeah not mentioning her pregnancy is a bit stupid. Maybe you could make the case that in the heat of moment people don't really thing straight/rationally, that would be plausible. But never the less I'll give him this one for arguments sake. He should have also mentioned that it was nonsensical for a pregnant women to be cleared for active duty anyway.

7) What??? It did have an impact on the plot though. He killed his partner as a result meaning he couldn't go back to WLF HQ meaning Abby had to come to him. Wasn't he paying attention?

8) This is gameplay element. Yeah if you sit there a let Tommy shoot 1000 bullets at you it doesn't make sense to and seems like he has infinite ammo, but just because you played it that way doesn't mean the plot was meant to play out that way. It's on you the player, not the writers.

9) He explained himself why this isn't a "contrivance". He tries to discredit it up exaggerating the characterisation of Dina as "competent killer" but the story never painted her as an Ellie/Abby level killer anyway.

10) It's been over a year since the events of Seattle, they clearly talked about their grievances in the proceeding time period as evidenced by some dialogue between them indicates Dina thought this was all sorted/behind them already.

Given that he's a youtuber that spends ages explaining an extremely simply point it was obvious to me when he briefly flash this screen that he knew he couldn't really defend much of these. It was just really to add fluff to his point. In the end on closer inspection it just weakens it since a lot of these a petty nitpicks that can easily be explained. If he'd just focused on the handful of genuine plot issues he'd have a far stronger argument.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Lmao, so many of these a petty nitpicks that can easily be rationally explained.

1) Plenty of service people wear their gear far outside of their "barracks/territory". Also when you're in the middle of literal apocalypse I think it's more than rational to wear the most durable gear you have on to hand/not be fussy about what you wear. It's not like they were sneaking into enemy territory that knew who they were, we were in wyoming which is a 1000 miles away. Why would they be worried they'd know who the WLF were?

2) Again, Wyoming to Seattle is 1000 miles from each other. You can get to it by crossing through a combination of 3 different states. Why would they cross paths???

3) Why is it a "contrivance" for Jordan to assume the prisoner he tied up would remain tied up?

4) Yeah this is fair enough

5) Again, I don't know how subjectively assuming a characters motivations without any basis for doing so is grounds to call it an objective "contrivance". That's not what a "contrivance" is.

6)
i) There's a raging storm outside and it's March. In Seattle. I'm not even from the US and I know Seattle get's pretty cold. Of course she'd be wearing a jacket, lol.
ii) Yeah not mentioning her pregnancy is a bit stupid. Maybe you could make the case that in the heat of moment people don't really thing straight/rationally, that would be plausible. But never the less I'll give him this one for arguments sake. He should have also mentioned that it was nonsensical for a pregnant women to be cleared for active duty anyway.

7) What??? It did have an impact on the plot though. He killed his partner as a result meaning he couldn't go back to WLF HQ meaning Abby had to come to him. Wasn't he paying attention?

8) This is gameplay element. Yeah if you sit there a let Tommy shoot 1000 bullets at you it doesn't make sense to and seems like he has infinite ammo, but just because you played it that way doesn't mean the plot was meant to play out that way. It's on you the player, not the writers.

9) He explained himself why this isn't a "contrivance". He tries to discredit it up exaggerating the characterisation of Dina as "competent killer" but the story never painted her as an Ellie/Abby level killer anyway.

10) It's been over a year since the events of Seattle, they clearly talked about their grievances in the proceeding time period as evidenced by some dialogue between them indicates Dina thought this was all sorted/behind them already.

Given that he's a youtuber that spends ages explaining an extremely simply point it was obvious to me when he briefly flash this screen that he knew he couldn't really defend much of these. It was just really to add fluff to his point. In the end on closer inspection it just weakens it since a lot of these a petty nitpicks that can easily be explained. If he'd just focused on the handful of genuine plot issues he'd have a far stronger argument.
1) You see exactly in the game why it's a costly mistake for them. :lollipop_grinning:
2) Yeah, the game doesn't give enough info to make that assessment IMO.
3) A questionable contrivance, he turns his back so Ellie could end up him in the neck.
5) Seemed more like an example of "out of character" behavior than contrivance to me also.
7) I guess he's talking about the act of letting the Scar go which doesn't prompt any reaction from Abby about her run in with Scars that helped her. Point should've been worded more clearly.
8) Well, there is something to be said how Tommy doesn't use his weapon to shoot Abby as she bursts through the door in that cut scene and now Yara teleported there.
9) I'm not really seeing the contrivance in this point either.
10) I'm pretty sure the point is about Abby and Ellie talking to each other about their grievances. Maybe better wording would've helped.
 

Dr Kaneda

Member
1) You see exactly in the game why it's a costly mistake for them. :lollipop_grinning:
2) Yeah, the game doesn't give enough info to make that assessment IMO.
3) A questionable contrivance, he turns his back so Ellie could end up him in the neck.
5) Seemed more like an example of "out of character" behavior than contrivance to me also.
7) I guess he's talking about the act of letting the Scar go which doesn't prompt any reaction from Abby about her run in with Scars that helped her. Point should've been worded more clearly.
8) Well, there is something to be said how Tommy doesn't use his weapon to shoot Abby as she bursts through the door in that cut scene and now Yara teleported there.
9) I'm not really seeing the contrivance in this point either.
10) I'm pretty sure the point is about Abby and Ellie talking to each other about their grievances. Maybe better wording would've helped.

1) Yeah ok I agree that it is "costly mistake" but it's still not a contrivance.
3) Again I don't see this as a contrivance. A contrivance would mean that he turned his back on Ellie and strangled Dina for no other reason than to give Ellie a chance to attack him, but he was strangling Dina to kill her. That was the reason, so it's not a really a contrivance.
4) So his point is that unless Abby remarked to Owen "oh I just got helped by some Scars as well!" then it becomes a "questionable plot point"? As I said the act is what caused Abby to go after Owen and him later explaining in detail what happened and how he's stick of viewing them as enemies etc.. also probably played a role in have that nightmarish reflection that made her go back for them. Calling it a "questionable plot point"/"contrivance" etc.. because it didn't serve a specific narrative point that you wanted isn't valid when it's already serving other plot points.
8) He ran out of ammo. Whether he runs out of ammo then, earlier, later etc.. it's irrelevant since regardless of when he does run out of ammo as soon as he does run out of ammo he's always going to take a sneaky approach and try and subdue Abby with force rather than shooting her. Which is exactly what he does. He seems to have issue with the fact Tommy fired an "infinite" amount of bullets during the gameplay segment but then ran out but as I explained the amount her fires is not tied to the plot, it's tied to the individuals gameplay.

I do agree with the Yara teleportation part though. Maybe he should have mentioned that instead.

10) Yeah and I like I said given the time that's elapse, Ellie's dairy entries and the way they talk about the current situation it's obvious to me that they've rehashed their grievances multiple times before and it's just gotten to the point where Ellie can't be held back anymore and Dina is tried of convincing her.

I just think focusing on a few solid issues that he could make genuine cases for would have been better than just make a list full of weak points for no other purpose than to say "look at ALL these the problems with the story". Cheapens it for me and doesn't seem serious.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
1) Yeah ok I agree that it is "costly mistake" but it's still not a contrivance.
3) Again I don't see this as a contrivance. A contrivance would mean that he turned his back on Ellie and strangled Dina for no other reason than to give Ellie a chance to attack him, but he was strangling Dina to kill her. That was the reason, so it's not a really a contrivance.
4) So his point is that unless Abby remarked to Owen "oh I just got helped by some Scars as well!" then it becomes a "questionable plot point"? As I said the act is what caused Abby to go after Owen and him later explaining in detail what happened and how he's stick of viewing them as enemies etc.. also probably played a role in have that nightmarish reflection that made her go back for them. Calling it a "questionable plot point"/"contrivance" etc.. because it didn't serve a specific narrative point that you wanted isn't valid when it's already serving other plot points.
8) He ran out of ammo. Whether he runs out of ammo then, earlier, later etc.. it's irrelevant since regardless of when he does run out of ammo as soon as he does run out of ammo he's always going to take a sneaky approach and try and subdue Abby with force rather than shooting her. Which is exactly what he does. He seems to have issue with the fact Tommy fired an "infinite" amount of bullets during the gameplay segment but then ran out but as I explained the amount her fires is not tied to the plot, it's tied to the individuals gameplay.

I do agree with the Yara teleportation part though. Maybe he should have mentioned that instead.

10) Yeah and I like I said given the time that's elapse, Ellie's dairy entries and the way they talk about the current situation it's obvious to me that they've rehashed their grievances multiple times before and it's just gotten to the point where Ellie can't be held back anymore and Dina is tried of convincing her.

I just think focusing on a few solid issues that he could make genuine cases for would have been better than just make a list full of weak points for no other purpose than to say "look at ALL these the problems with the story". Cheapens it for me and doesn't seem serious.
1) It allows Ellie and co to trace them where otherwise they would've gotten away with Joel's murder. It was a dumb mistake of those with who put in so much effort in taking Joel out.
3) It edges more to Jordan being sloppy but the game doesn't really establishes that character trait so it might also being seen an illogical action to allow Ellie to escape and stab him.
8) Is that really in character that Tommy would use up all his ammo like that and not save some for close quarter combat like events were leading up to?

10) ??? When did Ellie really talk to Abby? Closest thing is Abby saying that she let her and Tommy live as if that absolves what she and the others did. Joel let Abby live, she's not consistent with her morals.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
1) It allows Ellie and co to trace them where otherwise they would've gotten away with Joel's murder. It was a dumb mistake of those with who put in so much effort in taking Joel out.
3) It edges more to Jordan being sloppy but the game doesn't really establishes that character trait so it might also being seen an illogical action to allow Ellie to escape and stab him.
8) Is that really in character that Tommy would use up all his ammo like that and not save some for close quarter combat like events were leading up to?

10) ??? When did Ellie really talk to Abby? Closest thing is Abby saying that she let her and Tommy live as if that absolves what she and the others did. Joel let Abby live, she's not consistent with her morals.

There's so much wrong with this reading of events its not really worth the bother.

TLOU2 is very tightly written, you might not like its content or approach but after two playthroughs I came out with an appreciation for how careful Druckmann and Gross were to cross every "T" and dot every "I".

As I've written previously its issues are mainly stem from it not adopting a simple linear narrative like the first game, meaning that the pacing, particularly in the early stretches of the game, suffers becuase the needs of the story and the gameplay are somewhat at cross-purposes. For instance the long semi-open gameplay of Ellie and Dina's arrival in Seattle kind of undercuts the way that its the point in the story that the vengeance motive should be burning most brightly.

Its the slowest part for gameplay and world-building reasons, whereas the story and charcter work would be best served by a more aggressive pace. Its the fundamental issue with ND's quasi-cinematic approach; momentum in the narrative cannot really be reflected in the gameplay because it needs to be compartmentalized for technical and mechanical reasons.

"Wide linearity" makes for a better sandbox to play in, but to allow that means sacrifices need to be made in pacing how the story beats land. Its why Abby's arc generally flows much better, its a lot more constrained.
 

Dr Kaneda

Member
1) It allows Ellie and co to trace them where otherwise they would've gotten away with Joel's murder. It was a dumb mistake of those with who put in so much effort in taking Joel out.
3) It edges more to Jordan being sloppy but the game doesn't really establishes that character trait so it might also being seen an illogical action to allow Ellie to escape and stab him.
8) Is that really in character that Tommy would use up all his ammo like that and not save some for close quarter combat like events were leading up to?

10) ??? When did Ellie really talk to Abby? Closest thing is Abby saying that she let her and Tommy live as if that absolves what she and the others did. Joel let Abby live, she's not consistent with her morals.

1) I explained why I don't think it was a dumb mistake to the extent of calling it a "questionable plot point". They were a 1000 miles away from their territory in a completely different state, they were not dealing with a rival faction like the scars or FEDRA etc.. It's beyond reasonable to assume they'd have no idea who they were.

8) and 9) Again this is subjectively assuming a character's traits without any basis and calling it a fault with the plot when it doesn't match up with your idea despite other rational and likely character traits existing that explain these actions perfectly fine.

10) D'ohhhhh. I'm a dumb fuck, in my mind I thought we were talking about Dina and Ellie, not Abby and Ellie. Lol, sorry about that.
But Abby and Ellie talking makes even less sense, Abby brutally killed Joel and later killed Jesse. Ellie (and Tommy in the case of Manny) killed all of Abby's friends and her lover and and unborn child. They also brutally tired to kill each other twice. What type of relationship does he think that is that would lead to either one of them wanting to discuss their "grievances" to the other? It's nonsensical. The lack of dialogue between the two in the entire point, it's a reflection of how visceral the hatred between them is that it's beyond "talking it out".
 

Ulysses 31

Member
1) I explained why I don't think it was a dumb mistake to the extent of calling it a "questionable plot point". They were a 1000 miles away from their territory in a completely different state, they were not dealing with a rival faction like the scars or FEDRA etc.. It's beyond reasonable to assume they'd have no idea who they were.

8) and 9) Again this is subjectively assuming a character's traits without any basis and calling it a fault with the plot when it doesn't match up with your idea despite other rational and likely character traits existing that explain these actions perfectly fine.

10) D'ohhhhh. I'm a dumb fuck, in my mind I thought we were talking about Dina and Ellie, not Abby and Ellie. Lol, sorry about that.
But Abby and Ellie talking makes even less sense, Abby brutally killed Joel and later killed Jesse. Ellie (and Tommy in the case of Manny) killed all of Abby's friends and her lover and and unborn child. They also brutally tired to kill each other twice. What type of relationship does he think that is that would lead to either one of them wanting to discuss their "grievances" to the other? It's nonsensical. The lack of dialogue between the two in the entire point, it's a reflection of how visceral the hatred between them is that it's beyond "talking it out".
1) Why would they assume people are not willing to follow leads across states to get revenge like they did? They of all people should know what some people are willing to go through for vengeance. Even if they're banking on not looking out of the ordinary, that can't be said for Abby's appearance. :lollipop_grinning:
8)9) Obviously is Tommy is cunning and resourceful to get where he was so to end the fight the way it did doesn't really logically follow IMO.
10) While I wouldn't expect them to talk things out, I would expect them to mention those they've killed as a justification for what's happening now. Abby doesn't know that Ellie specifically killed Owen and Mel though and the fact that she didn't kill Ellie before shows she cared about only killing the guilty and now there's no indication of that. She's even willing to kill and unborn baby even though she wasn't on good terms with Mel anymore. The way Abby killed Joel seems out of character with what the game shows afterwards (helping animals, helping others who helped her) . o_O

A throwaway line that they're only after Joel for what he did to the Fireflies would've gone a long way to improve Joel's final moments IMO.
 
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Bankai

Member
10) ??? When did Ellie really talk to Abby? Closest thing is Abby saying that she let her and Tommy live as if that absolves what she and the others did. Joel let Abby live, she's not consistent with her morals.

Which is totally human... you never experience doubt and/or conflicting emotions? She's is being torn apart by feelings of sadness, hate, despair, anger.

I think it's baffling that so many of you think that's it's "unrealistic" and/or "bad writing" when a character is in conflict and therefor reacts "inconsistently".
That is exactly what makes these characters so realistic, so relatable IMO.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Which is totally human... you never experience doubt and/or conflicting emotions? She's is being torn apart by feelings of sadness, hate, despair, anger.

I think it's baffling that so many of you think that's it's "unrealistic" and/or "bad writing" when a character is in conflict and therefor reacts "inconsistently".
That is exactly what makes these characters so realistic, so relatable IMO.
Characters can absolutely behave illogical and inconsistent if the writing establishes it, in the TLOU2 it doesn't get established anywhere near enough IMO.

As I said before, I think Abby's torturing of Joel seems out of character for her with what the game shows of her personality. Yes, the game shows she wants Joel dead, that's still a far cry from establishing slowly torturing someone to death falls in that category.
 
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Ellery

Member
So.. I just finished TLOU2 and I was looking forward to finally spending some time in this topic. But damn.. it's quite toxic in here :messenger_fearful:

There I go: I absolutely loved the game! I respect Naughty Dog so much for telling the story they wanted to tell, just like I respect what they did back in part 1. The fact that part 2 turned out to be a revenge-story (with forgiveness in the end) caught me completely by surprise. I think the most of us (hehe) expected Part 2 to dig deeper into the relationship between Ellie and Joel. I think it's fantastic that Naughty Dog did the unexpected and shocked us with an early death of 1 of its main characters. The flashbacks were only more powerful because of it, going back to Joel and Ellie.

I experienced so many emotional highs and lows together with both Ellie and Abby, there really isn't a game quite like it.

I wonder.. Why don't I "get" all the controversy around Abby and Lev? I think both characters are amazing and well-written. I hated Abby to the core before starting her story-arc, which was such a daring move on Naught Dogs part. A "good" character moves me, whether that is through love or hate. It's just like that when watching movies for me; I want to FEEL something, there's nothing worse than a bland, dull movie or game.
I was so confused when it came to (one of the) final confrontations between Abby and Ellie, I was feeling resentment and empathy for the both of em!
I also didn't the characters were "forced" in there, to service some political agenda or some bullshit. I think the world-building and storytelling was awesome.

I won't be playing this game on PS4pro again, I'll wait for my PS5 to arrive to start NG+

Don't I have any feedback, was everything fantastic then? Nah, of course there was some I didn't love:
I was kinda exhausted/drained at the end, the game was a little too long IMO. They could've easily shaved around 5hours off and the impact would have been the same. Also, some decisions made by the characters were kinda stupid, but hey - people are stupid in real life as well. So I don't blame Naughty Dog for portraying the flaws of human nature ;)

Ignore the toxicity.

I agree. I felt the same way you did. Joel's death made the flashbacks emotionally overwhelming.

TLOU2 is a very special game and a cut above the rest. It goes further than any game has before and that is what it makes it so damn special. It stays with you after finishing it and it makes other games look like they aren't even trying.

As far as controversy goes it isn't worth being bothered by. Sadly the world is going down a polarization spiral and TLOU2 is big enough that people think it is a great battleground for opinions. This is just how things are at the moment. All dweling in the eternal digital feedback of virtual commentary it is easier to throw out a nasty hateful comment and get at least a tiny bit of attention instead of being ignored when you are positive about something praising it.
There is legit criticism, even though people are putting TLOU2 much more under a microscope than any other game before, but sadly this is being dwarfed by all the drive by trolling and childish comments.

I am very glad that you felt the game and love it.
 

Bankai

Member
Characters can absolutely behave illogical and inconsistent if the writing establishes it, in the TLOU2 it doesn't get established anywhere near enough IMO.

As I said before, I think Abby's torturing of Joel seems out of character for her with what the game shows of her personality.

Joel killed her father and condemned the entire world. Afterwards Abby lives a life of being a trained killingmachine. I imagine all the hatred spewing out of here, when she finally gets the chance to end the fucker that killer her father. Too bad that was Joel, I loved the guy - but I could totally understand where she was coming from (AFTER playing through her origin story)
 
I love how i keep seeing arguments of whether or not mel going on patrol or not, when at the start of the game se travel across the country to an unknown territory with possibility having to fight a whole city. She was still preggo when they kill joel not much time passed since thah event to seattle day 1.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Characters can absolutely behave illogical and inconsistent if the writing establishes it, in the TLOU2 it doesn't get established anywhere near enough IMO.

As I said before, I think Abby's torturing of Joel seems out of character for her with what the game shows of her personality. Yes, the game shows she wants Joel dead, that's still a far cry from establishing slowly torturing someone to death falls in that category.

Look at it as a similar situation to Ellie torturing Nora. She wants information and her target's defiance makes her uncharacteristically cruel and merciless in her methods.

The main difference is that Abby has her crew with her, all of whom are ex-Fireflies and thus share her hatred for what Joel did and need to know why he did it.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Joel killed her father and condemned the entire world. Afterwards Abby lives a life of being a trained killingmachine. I imagine all the hatred spewing out of here, when she finally gets the chance to end the fucker that killer her father. Too bad that was Joel, I loved the guy - but I could totally understand where she was coming from (AFTER playing through her origin story)
A vaccine won't help against clickers ripping your throat out, only if you survive a bite or inhaled spores. Then there's question if the Fireflies would've been able to mass produce the vaccine and distribute it, assuming they won't use it for leverage. You ignore's the Fireflies behavior(knocking Joel out when he's trying to wake up Ellie, take away his gear and send him away, threaten with death, not allowing him to see Ellie one last time, planning to kill Ellie without informed consent) that escalated to violence.

The way TLOU2 portrays the world, human factions are more of threat to each other than the cordyceps virus.

We should've seen more of Abby's training and how it motivated her IMO.
 

ghairat

Member
Did Halley Gross play the first game before attempting to write for this game? I'm not buying the "well Neil probably gave her a summary". I think most of the things were because of her. No video game experience what so ever
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Characters can absolutely behave illogical and inconsistent if the writing establishes it, in the TLOU2 it doesn't get established anywhere near enough IMO.

As I said before, I think Abby's torturing of Joel seems out of character for her with what the game shows of her personality. Yes, the game shows she wants Joel dead, that's still a far cry from establishing slowly torturing someone to death falls in that category.

Look at it as a similar situation to Ellie torturing Nora. She wants information and her target's defiance makes her uncharacteristically cruel and merciless in her methods.

The main difference is that Abby has her crew with her, all of whom are ex-Fireflies and thus share her hatred for what Joel did and need to know why he did it.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Look at it as a similar situation to Ellie torturing Nora. She wants information and her target's defiance makes her uncharacteristically cruel and merciless in her methods.

The main difference is that Abby has her crew with her, all of whom are ex-Fireflies and thus share her hatred for what Joel did and need to know why he did it.
But Abby's not torturing for information. We don't even know if they told Joel why he's getting what he's getting. o_O
Edit: Come to think of it, she should've asked about her father's last moments and Joel could've said why he did what he did. Could've made things more interesting.


In fact, if Tommy told Ellie how they'd helped Abby before might've motivated Ellie even more to go after Abby.

They made Ellie more of a villain in this game sure but Nora was already as good as dead, her calling Joel a bitch didn't help her case either. :p
 
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Valentino

Member
Some of these questions some of you are asking are pathetically reaching. Like someone mentioned above, the plot is tightly written - but so some of you are asking questions along the lines of "why doesn't Ellie go to the toilet? The game tries so hard to be realistic they should have at least included a scene of her taking a dump in a bush!" .............That's you. That's how dumb you sound. Like you could ask a continous ammount of these questions. Like "ugh Mel conviniently wears a coat"................. yeah this happens in stories ffs. Everything's convenient. Stop moaning at anything you can find because you know the game takes itself seriously so you think every pathetic detail you can nit pick needs some real world logic.
 

Freeman

Banned
Never was a game so scrutinized and sabotaged yet withstood all those attacks standing tall as a commercial and critical success. Hater failed miserably in their mission, better luck next time.

Don't you let me know which games you nitpickers like, I'm coming for that ass.

Look at it as a similar situation to Ellie torturing Nora. She wants information and her target's defiance makes her uncharacteristically cruel and merciless in her methods.

The main difference is that Abby has her crew with her, all of whom are ex-Fireflies and thus share her hatred for what Joel did and need to know why he did it.
They are not trying to get any information out of Joel, Abby is just trying to get off on her revenge which Joel completely denies by not giving a shit about who she is and taking it like a champ.
 
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Bankai

Member
A vaccine won't help against clickers ripping your throat out, only if you survive a bite or inhaled spores. Then there's question if the Fireflies would've been able to mass produce the vaccine and distribute it, assuming they won't use it for leverage. You ignore's the Fireflies behavior(knocking Joel out when he's trying to wake up Ellie, take away his gear and send him away, threaten with death, not allowing him to see Ellie one last time, planning to kill Ellie without informed consent) that escalated to violence.

The way TLOU2 portrays the world, human factions are more of threat to each other than the cordyceps virus.

We should've seen more of Abby's training and how it motivated her IMO.

You do seem to be pretty invested in the lore, so I absolutely respect your opinion. It's okay we disagree :) And you're right by saying "The way TLOU2 portrays the world, human factions are more of threat to each other than the cordyceps virus." Which is the case in real life as well, we are our own worst enemy.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't really like/appreciate the game. I don't think you wanted to dislike the game, you just seem disappointed.
 
That said I think the main difference between people who like and dislike the story are that the latter have difficulty with the game's refusal to commit to traditional good vs evil tropes. Joel's death is unforgivable because he was a goodie and the fireflies are baddies! Ellie is "ruined" by the story even though what she is doing is shown to be her thinking that's what Joel would do in her shoes until it eventually breaks her, and as for Abby... hoo boy she's damned even though almost her entire arc is one of redemption.
This is too easy, the 1st game in the series had done away with this already, many games and movies have "gray" characters, it doesn't backfire when done properly.

Abby and her ex firefly friends are always the cool, nice and good people in this game, the only time she looks mean is when she kills Joel. Ellie and the people of Jackson are a bit more on the traditional nice American rural style, but a bit more gray (however, they don't just kill all trespassers).
 

Dr Kaneda

Member
1) Why would they assume people are not willing to follow leads across states to get revenge like they did? They of all people should know what some people are willing to go through for vengeance. Even if they're banking on not looking out of the ordinary, that can't be said for Abby's appearance. :lollipop_grinning:
8)9) Obviously is Tommy is cunning and resourceful to get where he was so to end the fight the way it did doesn't really logically follow IMO.
10) While I wouldn't expect them to talk things out, I would expect them to mention those they've killed as a justification for what's happening now. Abby doesn't know that Ellie specifically killed Owen and Mel though and the fact that she didn't kill Ellie before shows she cared about only killing the guilty and now there's no indication of that. She's even willing to kill and unborn baby even though she wasn't on good terms with Mel anymore. The way Abby killed Joel seems out of character with what the game shows afterwards (helping animals, helping others who helped her) . o_O

A throwaway line that they're only after Joel for what he did to the Fireflies would've gone a long way to improve Joel's final moments IMO.
1) They literally have an entire army behind them. I think it's sensible to assume that even if they did come for revenge that beyond having a hard time finding them they also have a hard time getting between them and the WLF. Why would they assume Ellie is Solid Snake? They've never met the girl before.

9) So Tommy has a clear sight of Abby and instead of taking the shot he's supposed to think "Oh I've only got x amount of bullets left, I better not take this shot and instead wait for her to come to me and shoot her then instead". If you have a shot you take, there's nothing illogical about that. He ran out of ammo and he improvised by sneaking and using force, again perfectly logical.

10) Abby recognises Tommy and Ellie from the cabin so she obviously knows why they are after her and why they killed the people that they did. Abby then tells Ellie and Tommy "You killed my friends" so that's an explanation of why Abby went after them again and then Abby doesn't need to explain why she killed Joel since Ellie already preempts her by saying "I know why you killed Joel".

So where exactly is the plot problems here? Each characters understanding of the others actions is succinctly and effortlessly outlined. Did you want long drawn out monologues of "Owen was my lover since I was a kid and we were just reigniting our romance but you until you killed him" and "Joel was my surrogate father that I was just started to forgive and rebuild our relationship after pushing him away for loving me too much but now you've killed him and I'll never be able to tell him how much he meant to me"??

Abby doesn't care about only killing the guilty. It was Owen that talked them out of killing the others. When Abby is at the theatre when she says "we let you live and you wasted it!" she's basically admitted it was a mistake to show mercy and she's not going to do that anymore since look where it got her. That's why she want to kill Dina, because last time she didn't clean house and kill everyone and it bit her in the arse so she isn't going to make that mistake again. As for showing Abby helping animals and helping others, that was done to show that she did have elements of goodness in her that was robbed when Joel killed her father. I thought that was beyond obvious? It's literally one of the most obvious things in the story. People that are criticising the game are actually all get this very simple point. Not sure how you missed it
 

Ulysses 31

Member
1) They literally have an entire army behind them. I think it's sensible to assume that even if they did come for revenge that beyond having a hard time finding them they also have a hard time getting between them and the WLF. Why would they assume Ellie is Solid Snake? They've never met the girl before.

9) So Tommy has a clear sight of Abby and instead of taking the shot he's supposed to think "Oh I've only got x amount of bullets left, I better not take this shot and instead wait for her to come to me and shoot her then instead". If you have a shot you take, there's nothing illogical about that. He ran out of ammo and he improvised by sneaking and using force, again perfectly logical.

10) Abby recognises Tommy and Ellie from the cabin so she obviously knows why they are after her and why they killed the people that they did. Abby then tells Ellie and Tommy "You killed my friends" so that's an explanation of why Abby went after them again and then Abby doesn't need to explain why she killed Joel since Ellie already preempts her by saying "I know why you killed Joel".

So where exactly is the plot problems here? Each characters understanding of the others actions is succinctly and effortlessly outlined. Did you want long drawn out monologues of "Owen was my lover since I was a kid and we were just reigniting our romance but you until you killed him" and "Joel was my surrogate father that I was just started to forgive and rebuild our relationship after pushing him away for loving me too much but now you've killed him and I'll never be able to tell him how much he meant to me"??

Abby doesn't care about only killing the guilty. It was Owen that talked them out of killing the others. When Abby is at the theatre when she says "we let you live and you wasted it!" she's basically admitted it was a mistake to show mercy and she's not going to do that anymore since look where it got her. That's why she want to kill Dina, because last time she didn't clean house and kill everyone and it bit her in the arse so she isn't going to make that mistake again. As for showing Abby helping animals and helping others, that was done to show that she did have elements of goodness in her that was robbed when Joel killed her father. I thought that was beyond obvious? It's literally one of the most obvious things in the story. People that are criticising the game are actually all get this very simple point. Not sure how you missed it
1) Well, they end up dead because they leave big trails behind where they're from when it could've easily been prevented so it can be seen as a contrivance to push the game's revenge plot forward.
2) We have to assume he ran low or out of ammo, when the viewer/player has to make these kinds of assumptions for a movie or a game plot to work, that's usually not good writing. A line of from Tommy to Ellie how he was close to killing Abby but he had not ammo left (or this one armed chick teleported behind him :lollipop_grinning: ) would've helped.
3) Even if Ellie knows why she killed Joel, that doesn't mean she has to overlook the way in which she killed him. If Ellie knows that Joel saved Abby before, that's at least a topic of conversation why she still had to be so brutal. Also, leaving that map behind also strikes me as a contrivance like Abby's crew not hiding their WLF patches.

Abby and co should've left no witnesses but she acts as if Ellie's ungrateful that she was left alive after seeing her father figure get his head caved in which is strange coming from her. She went across states to kill someone, she shouldn't be surprised or angry if someone might return the favor in a TLOU world. "Rules for me but not for thee" kind of Hypocrisy.

It's not beyond obvious that losing a dear parent makes you lose your goodness as seen by Abby helping the Scars. Joel saving her should at least give her pause, seeing that Joel is not pure evil but the game does nothing with it unfortunately.
 

zkorejo

Member
Finally got to finish it.

The story was not bad, but dragged alot. I liked the whole seeing the Abby's side of the story. Joel didn't really do the right thing in the first game and it makes all the sense for someone like Abby to seek revenge on killing her beloved father who was trying to save the humanity. I see her point, I love Joel but I see where she's coming from.

Problem is the game hits you on the head with it over and over again, too many flashbacks, very slowpaced storytelling at times it was dragging at a snails pace and borderline boring. Good thing I enjoyed the gameplay aspect of the game or I seriously would have stopped playing during Abby's 80th flashback. I still am not sure what the point was for Lev to be a trans and why the fuck should it matter to the story of Ellie and Abby. I also didn't like the forced long boring flashback gameplay only to add layers to these characters, most of which I didnt care about (friends of Abby esp.).

I liked the timelines of the story, playing as Abby was not bad at all. I enjoyed it. When I played as Ellie I wanted to kill all her stupid friends but then the perspective shifts on those characters. I liked how they used different perspectives to portray the gray areas, no one is bad no one is good, they are all just surviving and there are two teenage vengeful girls going at it.

I really liked the ending.. As a player I didnt want Abby to die, because I see her perspective.. because I played as her and know her story. But I dont understand why Ellie would let her go after throwing away a perfect life with her lover for revenge that she doesnt even extract. It wasn't explained why she would not just kill her in the end.. tbh it felt like she didn't go back to avenge Joel but rather to satisfy her ego because Abby kicked her ass the first time around. She could have easily jist shot her in the head.. instead went for a fistfight. I know it wasn't the case but that's how it felt like when she let her live when she clearly could have killed her.

Game is a 7(Edit) at best IMO, could have been better if it wasn't unnecessarily dragged for useless sidestories and characters I didnt give a shit about. Alot of things felt like were shoehorned into the game and they just didn't sit well with the rest of the game.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
Finally got to finish it.

The story was not bad, but dragged alot. I liked the whole seeing the Abby's side of the story. Joel didn't really do the right thing in the first game and it makes all the sense for someone like Abby to seek revenge on killing her beloved father who was trying to save the humanity. I see her point, I love Joel but I see where she's coming from.
Didn't you find it a bit lame how the game ignores the context what led Joel to go rescue Ellie? And that Joel himself doesn't mention it when Ellie confronts him? The retcon that Ellie knew what would happen in that hospital when in part I she makes plans with Joel for after her hospital visit? That a lot of the drama comes from characters withholding information? :lollipop_confounded:
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Didn't you find it a bit lame how the game ignores the context what led Joel to go rescue Ellie? And that Joel himself doesn't mention it when Ellie confronts him? The retcon that Ellie knew what would happen in that hospital when in part I she makes plans with Joel for after her hospital visit? That a lot of the drama comes from characters withholding information? :lollipop_confounded:
There's no retcon.

Ellie knew Joel was lying at the end of TLOU 1. That's why she said, "Swear to me that everything you said about the fireflies was true."

Joel said "I swear" and Ellie knew hew as lying. Ellie didn't know exactly what happened, but she knew Joel lied.

I don't know how people can miss this.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
There's no retcon.

Ellie knew Joel was lying at the end of TLOU 1. That's why she said, "Swear to me that everything you said about the fireflies was true."

Joel said "I swear" and Ellie knew hew as lying. Ellie didn't know exactly what happened, but she knew Joel lied.

I don't know how people can miss this.
Ellie makes plans to go wherever Joel wants to go after the hospital visit, so either she's lying to Joel or she didn't plan to die in that hospital. If she was lying then it's very rich of her to be angry at Joel for lying to her. She wasn't asked if she'd be fine with being sacrificed for a possible cure. She acts angry at Joel taking away her choice when the Fireflies didn't give her a choice either, it's a bizarre way to cause more drama.

After Ellie "finds" out in Part II and confronts him, why wouldn't Joel tell her what a fine bunch the Fireflies were, knocking him out while he's giving her CPR, stealing his gear, not paying for delivering her, sending him away without his gear under threat of death, not letting him see her one more time.
 
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