Ionian
Member
Plenty of countries? Practically most European ones anyway. You just need to put in the graft via work and education. Plenty you can learn on the job, don't have to do it all in college look at trades people.
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Anti-work subreddit goes private after disastrous Fox News interview
Plenty of countries? Practically most European ones anyway. You just need to put in the graft via work and education. Plenty you can learn on the job, don't have to do it all in college look at trades people.
SJRB
Gold Member
What in the world is this post, lmao.
How do you think people in other countries achieve success, exactly?
QSD
Member
I don't know if this is directed at me, but I guess since I was talking about indigenous inhabitants. I don't know if there's anyone else on this board who believes that "History is literally just a made up story we tell ourselves". Other than being an extremely post-modernist take, it's just not how people experience history at all. Look at how people perceive history around the world, look how much people in the US still cling to the memory of the confederacy. Look at the Balkans and how the memory of inter-ethnic and religious conflict lingers and festers long after the actual participants have died. History, the story we tell about how things came to be, is extremely important to people. It's also the reason 'origin stories' are so popular in movies and comics.
Also, nice own goal about drink, that shit wasn't even known to most indigenous peoples before the europeans came ashore. It's also (out of all substances that have a long record of historic use) the worst for your mind and body.
Cyberpunkd
Gold Member
American Dream is dead bro, but keep believing in it, all the 1% will thank you for making them more rich.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Qualify this rediculous statement.
Azurro
Banned
This is such a dumb take, have you ever been outside of the US?
I had the same thing. I work at an "at-will" state. I was terminated after 5 years while on 5 days paid bereavement due to my brother dying. The called me, said sorry, you did not do anything wrong. I lost my health insurance and suddenly find myself having to come up with 3900 dollars that month for medication due to cobra being 6000 dollars. That group just wants fair treatment, you shouldn't have to die because you can not afford insulin. I'm glad you are doing well and hope you continue to do so.
Cyberpunkd
Gold Member
Ah mindset, the prime repose of all the cons like Robert Kiyosaki. Just bootstrap harder!
As for the Starbucks example - I don't know what you are suggesting, but if the amount of knowledge to pour you a coffee in Starbucks is the same as putting a suspension in a car, then even if it's a million $ car they should be paid exactly the same.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Why should anyone care about the knowledge it takes to do something? That supposes that all knowledge is equally valuable, which it is obviously not. Knowledge is only valuable if there is a demand for that knowledge.
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Joshmyersbv
Member
I work at a "at-will" state too. The risk of losing your job over anything sucks. I work at Honda and it's probably the best employer I have ever worked for.
Joshmyersbv
Member
No they shouldn't, at Starbucks do they have to go through physical conditioning before they can even start work? It's not about the knowledge to do something, it's the physical and mental strain your body takes while doing the work.
Putting suspension in one car is one thing. Putting suspension in 500 cars a day is another. That's not the only job you can do, you can also climb in and out of 500 cars and drill 4000 bolts a day just putting seat belts in. That kills your body, and that's not the mental strain of the job. On assembly, your given 53 seconds to do a job on each car. How long do you have to make a coffee? Hell lets say you fuck up a coffee at Starbucks, it's a lost cost of what $4? You stop a Auto assembly line because of a fuck up it cost the company $60,000 a minute.
So your body is tired and your head hurts from working on the line. Now you also have to worry about job hazards. At Starbucks one of the worst things that can happen is what, you burn yourself? A women fell behide on a job at another plant, stepped on a conveyor plate in a red area. Fell through it and was dragged 30 feet while sandwiched between 2 Vehicles that weighed a ton a piece. Making fucking coffee should absolutely not require the same pay as working in auto assembly.
Have you ever just showed up in another country, worked hard, and become successful? I'm not talking about being successful within your own country, I'm talking about picking up, moving, and then setting up in an entirely new place. MILLIONS do it in America every year and have for centuries. What other country has that many flocking to it?
And history is just a story. It's never all encompassing, completely impartial, entirely based on hard facts, and rigid. Instead it's almost always filtered through personal experience, distilled from multiple partial perspectives, written with an ideology or agenda in mind, or only focusing on certain aspects. Look at how history morphs over time. Old stories fade, new versions of events arise. The players may be the same but the themes can differ. You can choose to dwell on all the bad shit that's happened to you and yours, a tale true FOR EVERYONE, or you can move forward. The past does not reach out and physically stop you (barring actual laws that target specific groups), it's all in your head, self-defeating or self-rewarding depending on your choice.
Ultra Violento
Member
lolol I'm subbed to that sub tho I'm much more of a lurker. I like reading about shitty bosses I guess.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
And it's not even a USA thing. It can happen in any country. It's not like poor uneducated people going to another country automatically remain the same unskilled poor family tree forever. Ya, some will struggle and never improve, but tons do succeed.
I find it amazing anyone's parents who got their asses out of war torn Europe back in the day broke made it. And not just families from war, but any circumstance where you show up off a boat and got to figure out what to do.
I don't even know what you'd even do. I'd assume you'd make a beeline to a government office or embassy asking for help and theyd give you some money, temporary housing and some tips on language classes, where to sign up your kid for school etc.... In other words, you're treated like a retard who doesn't know what's going on. I dont know if cities back then would even give you a free phone number, dial up phone and utility bills to help you out so you can at least talk to people remotely.
Yet, give it some time even if it takes many generations to prosper (nobody said it turns on a dime) and some still succeed way more than locals who start off much better.
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Ionian
Member
I have more than once. Earned enough to buy a house in CASH.
No mortage.
And it wasn't in America. I then decided to go back to college as an adult and it was state funded.
EDIT: Partially as a I was mature student, still worked and did my degree at night.
All of this happened in my 20-30's.
The missus (who I met after buying my house and working whilst in college) went from factory work to x4 the pay in a few years working for sales in social media shite. (Earns even even more now and is headhunted, (free education woohoo!). Land of the free my arse.
You haven't a clue what you're on about as you haven't and if you have, then name them.
Plenty of people do it. Why do you think so many people immigrate outside of their own countries? Some as stepping stones, some simply to settle down to raise a family.
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SJRB
Gold Member
The whole point of that subreddit was to expose shitty employer practices, not to make a socialist statement that "laziness is a virtue" and wealth should be distributed equally or other such dumbfuckery.
It was ghastly to see how people in usually low-wage jobs are getting treated. That was the whole point.
But in a single interview that lasted mere 5 minutes this fucking clown singlehandedly trainwrecked the entire purpose of that subreddit and made a fool of 1,5 million people.
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Azurro
Banned
I did it twice, once in Canada and once in Europe, studied CS and was able to build my life out of that.
If you study and work hard, there are plenty of places where you can have a very nice life. Why do Americans think it's exclusive to them?
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Punished Miku
Gold Member
I did it twice, once in Canada and once in Europe, studied CS and was able to build my life out of that.
If you study and work hard, there are plenty of places where you can have a very nice life. Why do Americans think it's exclusive to them?
Ionian
Member
That's pretty much how it works, even now in some countries but things tend to be far more civil.
Irish families used to resign themselves to death (famine, mostly a genocide thanks to the abuse of the English) to put that eldest sons on 'Coffin Ships' as it was all they could afford. Even then the ships could be a death sentence, hence the name and the ones that made it sure weren't welcomed with open arms. Uneducated, desperately poor and would be lucky to survive even after arriving.
Horrible, horrible shit.
Coffin ship - Wikipedia
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
Oh man. While I generally agree with
J
jason10mm
, and myself as an American, I do think the United States is a pretty freaking awesome country... Certainly saying the US is the ONLY country that allows upwards mobility is misguided and factually incorrect.
And it's a dumb take, to be honest. But equally (maybe even more?) dumb is to use that for anti-American sentiment. Let's not start talking shit about each other's countries. GAF is a global hangout spot with many people from many countries, and all of these countries have good things, and have bad things. Fucking chill with the mud slinging, everybody
And it's a dumb take, to be honest. But equally (maybe even more?) dumb is to use that for anti-American sentiment. Let's not start talking shit about each other's countries. GAF is a global hangout spot with many people from many countries, and all of these countries have good things, and have bad things. Fucking chill with the mud slinging, everybody
Very good post. If the interviewee had come out and said exactly what you wrote... This thread may not even exist. It certainly wouldn't exist in its current form, which is mostly to mock/criticize the interviewee and the movement as a whole.
Ionian
Member
Oh man. While I generally agree with J jason10mm , and myself as an American, I do think the United States is a pretty freaking awesome country... Certainly saying the US is the ONLY country that allows upwards mobility is misguided and factually incorrect.
And it's a dumb take, to be honest. But equally (maybe even more?) dumb is to use that for anti-American sentiment. Let's not start talking shit about each other's countries. GAF is a global hangout spot with many people from many countries, and all of these countries have good things, and have bad things. Fucking chill with the mud slinging, everybody
Very good post. If the interviewee had come out and said exactly what you wrote... This thread may not even exist. It certainly wouldn't exist in its current form, which is mostly to mock/criticize the interviewee and the movement as a whole.
A fair point and well said.
To be honest the OP video (I'd never heard of the subreddit and I think it's private now) I would never have known about it. When all you can see is the reactions and not the threads themselves as they locked it down from the backlash.
Civilly calling out a dumb take though I'd personally consider to be OK if it can be backed up with historical fact and not just randomly making things up. That's uncouth.
Hari Seldon
Member
Probably because 1. half of my tech company in the US is filled with canadians who fled from their shitty salaries and high cost of living in canada and 2. in general americans do not care about the goings-on in not-america.I did it twice, once in Canada and once in Europe, studied CS and was able to build my life out of that.
If you study and work hard, there are plenty of places where you can have a very nice life. Why do Americans think it's exclusive to them?
Ultra Violento
Member
And I heard the guy has autism but not sure how much of that is true but yeah....I dunno how else to say this but he looked like a lazy beta cuck in the interview. No wonder the sub imploded.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
I agree that if one jobs has notable differences such as danger or higher education or difficulty it should have higher pay. But that said the lower paying job must still pay a living wage.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
In theory I agree harder jobs and danger pay should be boosts people get. BUT, at the end of the day it's really supply and demand and what each side (management and workers) agree to.
If Starbucks wants to pay coffee makers (or as they like to call themselves Baristas as an ego boost) $20/hr, but a burger maker at Wendy's makes $12/hr, then hey Starbucks is willing to pay $20/hr. They make giant profits off $5 coffees and cappucinnos which probably cost them 40 cents to make. So they got enough runway to pay higher wages. And the workers know it.
Is it fair a good Google coder gets $200,000 sitting at a desk working by himself with nobody to manage? That's more money than all people at my work make except maybe the VPs and CEO make. I'm 100% positive the Directors here dont make that. But if Google wants to pay it, he's worth $200,000.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
I am very much in agreement that jobs should pay a "living wage." But, this is also a nuanced conversation. The market is a tricky entity, and I'm not an economist.
On a previous page in this thread, a user was complaining that he couldn't afford to buy a house in whatever city he lives in, even though he's in a two income household (... or something, I forget the details). When challenged about this, and asked why he wouldn't move, he said he doesn't WANT to move, but still kept on complaining about being able to buy a house.
Not every job is supposed to be able to provide a "living wage" (what is this defined as, anyway?) anywhere you want to live for any purpose. A Starbucks or Walmart employee may very well be completely fine in BumpFuckVille, Alabama. But they may potentially not be fine in San Francisco, California -- a much more expensive place. The market has decided the standard and cost of living in both of those places. So trying to adjust Starbucks wages in San Francisco so that the employees can not starve and live in a one bedroom apartment, may potentially be fine, depending on the cost of that apartment. But adjusting Starbucks wages to allow them to buy a 3 bedroom single family home in San Francisco is NOT fine -- there would be a lot of bad economic fallout from doing that.
On a previous page in this thread, a user was complaining that he couldn't afford to buy a house in whatever city he lives in, even though he's in a two income household (... or something, I forget the details). When challenged about this, and asked why he wouldn't move, he said he doesn't WANT to move, but still kept on complaining about being able to buy a house.
Not every job is supposed to be able to provide a "living wage" (what is this defined as, anyway?) anywhere you want to live for any purpose. A Starbucks or Walmart employee may very well be completely fine in BumpFuckVille, Alabama. But they may potentially not be fine in San Francisco, California -- a much more expensive place. The market has decided the standard and cost of living in both of those places. So trying to adjust Starbucks wages in San Francisco so that the employees can not starve and live in a one bedroom apartment, may potentially be fine, depending on the cost of that apartment. But adjusting Starbucks wages to allow them to buy a 3 bedroom single family home in San Francisco is NOT fine -- there would be a lot of bad economic fallout from doing that.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Isn't San Francisco one of those places where people oppose the creation of new housing projects that could allow people to have their own place at a reasonable price?
Azurro
Banned
But that's not the point though, of course job mobility exists, but he said that the US was the only country where social mobility exists, which is a blatant lie. You can study, put effort, land a good job and have a good life in many other countries than the US, even if you have a more difficult background.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Many companies (mine included) will take into account cost of living into salaries. But it's not a noticeable jump at all. The guy living in Vancouver will get paid more than something working in Winnipeg, but the pay bump might be only 20% even though the cost of living in Vancouver is probably 200% more.
As I said above, it comes down to supply, demand and how much $$$ a company is wiling to offer. And unless there really is some companies willing to match salaries exactly with cost of living index (ie. a guy working at a bank in Idaho makes 70% less than a bank worker in NY because it's 70% cheaper to live in Boise), Ive never seen anything close to a 1:1 index.
So for people complaining about shitty jobs, shitty pay and their city has stratospheric rent, then pack you bags and move to a cheap city, state or province where wages might be a touch lower, but your cost of living drops like 50%.
To give a good example, I used to contact a cowoker living in Regina. At the time, his family home was worth $250,000 and he was gung ho he bought it for like $175,000 years before. I told him my condo half the size is worth $400,000 and I bought it for $300,000. He even made more money than me. He was fine with living there. His wife worked too. No doubt that guy's house was paid off in no time. Just comes down to if you want to live in Regina.
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Trogdor1123
Gold Member
But why “must” it?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I never agreed to living wage either.
It comes down to what you can get. Even the government doesn't even support this as their provincial and state min wages are garbage. You'd be lucky to get by renting a room at $12/hr. And if the government doesn't even support it, why should companies?
So a paperboy deserves a living wage?
Also, living wage means many things which have never even been universally agreed upon:
- Living wage based on cost of living in that city? Or blanket stuff like "$15/hr" where that might be fine in Montana, but not California
- Single person? Married? Kids?
- What does the living wage even get you? Rent? Buy/Mortgage? How big of a home or apartment?
- Does the living wage include a car and expenses? Or living wage is suppose to only cover bus fare?
- All the fixings?..... Cable TV, internet, iPhone, movie sub plan....... video games?
Joshmyersbv
Member
A living wage also differs depending on where you live. Living on the west coast costs significantly more than living in Ohio.
I'm in the camp of trying to reduce the cost living in the US than trying to increase wages. Just because raising wages only ends up raising inflation.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
EXACTLY! This is what I was trying to get at in my post above when I asked something along the lines of "what does 'living wage' mean anyway!?"EDIT: also, very interesting perspective on the "cost of living" adjustments in pay. I learned something new today. Thanks!
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It's a hot take with hyperbole as a response to "in america upward mobility is a myth" but it is certainly based in fact. The US has more foreign born immigrants than the next three COMBINED and that doesn't account for first and second generation that are living a successful life. Plenty of folks can immigrate and do ok if they have to settle for their second, third, or fourth choices, just imagine what they could have done if they settled here
Countries With the Most Immigrants
The United States has the highest immigration population in the world. Learn about other countries that have large immigrant populations.
www.worldatlas.com
Ionian
Member
Have a sister who went with hopes and dreams. Silly bitch was asking for a return ticket very quickly.
Same sister that I showed how to torrent but make sure to limit uploads and cancel after.
Shedidn'tlisten.
Her bill was huge.
It's a hot take with hyperbole as a response to "in america upward mobility is a myth" but it is certainly based in fact. The US has more foreign born immigrants than the next three COMBINED and that doesn't account for first and second generation that are living a successful life. Plenty of folks can immigrate and do ok if they have to settle for their second, third, or fourth choices, just imagine what they could have done if they settled here
Countries With the Most Immigrants
The United States has the highest immigration population in the world. Learn about other countries that have large immigrant populations.
Alright you're using " hot take".
You not even read the thread? You're embarrassing yourself, I wasn't talking about that at all.
Quote me doing it.
Hari Seldon
Member
I don't disagree with you that other countries have equal or better mobility, I'm trying to answer the point as to why americans don't know this. 1. We only see people arriving for a better life, not leaving (in tech this is mostly Indians, Canadians, and Chinese-via-Canada), and most importantly 2. Europe is completely irrelevant to 90% of americans and we genuinely give no shits about what goes on there. It is too expensive to vacation there relative to the Caribbean or Mexico, and mostly we assume that is is similar to Canada and we see Canadians coming to the US to work by the bussloads (at least in tech).
Ionian
Member
It's a hot take with hyperbole as a response to "in america upward mobility is a myth"It's a hot take with hyperbole as a response to "in america upward mobility is a myth" but it is certainly based in fact. The US has more foreign born immigrants than the next three COMBINED and that doesn't account for first and second generation that are living a successful life. Plenty of folks can immigrate and do ok if they have to settle for their second, third, or fourth choices, just imagine what they could have done if they settled here
Countries With the Most Immigrants
The United States has the highest immigration population in the world. Learn about other countries that have large immigrant populations.
It's a hot take with hyperbole as a response to "in america upward mobility is a myth" but it is certainly based in fact. The US has more foreign born immigrants than the next three COMBINED and that doesn't account for first and second generation that are living a successful life. Plenty of folks can immigrate and do ok if they have to settle for their second, third, or fourth choices, just imagine what they could have done if they settled here
Countries With the Most Immigrants
The United States has the highest immigration population in the world. Learn about other countries that have large immigrant populations.
Sure, whatever. Where did you come from on that list?
Funny how the the Spanish are last on the charts.
Dude I would pay to see you say it to an Australian.
Tough cunts. Same as the Gaelic.
EDIT: You wanna not be joking just look at where they outsource to.
DO IT. lol.
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I honestly wish I could break myself of the habit of being frugal. I feel like I would have had a much better life if I hadn't been held back by my inability to spend on myself. Meanwhile I am struggling to teach my kids the value of money. We taught them to save, only for it to backfire spectacularly as money ended up having zero value to them because they never spent it. They would just end up with hundreds of dollars from Christmas/birthdays stuffed in to drawers. We then had them save for something they wanted but the damage had already been done.
Ionian
Member
I hope this is a meme.
///PATRIOT
Banned
Some people here think their Boss is their Dad who should be taking care of them.
Some think that wages should be stablished on the base of to cover your life troubles and necessities. No dude....
Wages are determined by simple market. The reason you're getting paid shit in a McDonald is because you're easily replace by 100,000 outside the door who doesn't have a job and income. Conversely the more you're a high skill worker there's less people who can do your job.
Some think that wages should be stablished on the base of to cover your life troubles and necessities. No dude....
Wages are determined by simple market. The reason you're getting paid shit in a McDonald is because you're easily replace by 100,000 outside the door who doesn't have a job and income. Conversely the more you're a high skill worker there's less people who can do your job.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
? People aren't slaves. And they didn't ask to be born. Society allows the birth of children for its perpetuation. People must be able to live off the work they do. And they should also be able to reproduce on that wage unless you want collapse.
Right now what is happening is those at the bottom with the least skills and care are incentivized to reproduce the most. The middle class is restricted by income from reproducing, and the wealthy often are too few too matter. The whole situation is dysgenic policy.
In past generations a single income high school graduate could have a 2 floor house, a car, a stay at home wife and a couple of kids. That's what needs to come back.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
That doesn’t answer the question at all and is hyperbolic at best. You still haven’t answered why it must, just that you want to for reasons that frankly don’t make sense.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
And that's the problem with people, families, careers and money.
The poorest people seem to have the most kids, while the rich people seem to have the fewest kids.
On paper it doesn't make sense since you'd think broke people would save money so they can survive, but they pump out kids into homes which cant be great if it's a single family home or parents who earn bad money. So if the trend in life is poorer neighbourhoods leads to kids who have more issues succeeding in life due to environment, you'd think you'd hold back having a 4th kid.
So given this, making ends meet with low wages is even tougher if you got kids.
So in a way it gets back to responsibilities in life. It's no wonder some people who are broke with bad skills cant get out of it. They made their situation worse with more mouths to feed. So that "living wage" is begged to be even higher.
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QSD
Member
If it's about the physical and mental strain your body takes while working, the assembly workers you just described should be massively out-earning their management. Also, it would seem rewarding to design an assembly line that doesn't cost $60.000/minute when there's a fuck up. Poor woman, the current job sounds better suited to a robot than a human being TBH.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
So your idea is that people should be able to exploit those that are forced to work out of necessity to earn a living? I don't think legalizing exploitation is a good idea, same reason we don't allow people to exploit children in factories or mines either. Just because someone is an adult does not mean they can't be subject to exploitation.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
Again, you are being hyperbolic. No one said that at all. Im still waiting for you to say why jobs must to be a living wage. Shouldn’t they be valued at what they create or how they can be replaced?
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Is there a place on earth where a ditch digger makes more than management above him? They are doing 'more work' after all. Physical and mental strain has never been the ultimate factor in determining how much someone earns. Unless you are arguing that it should be? What are you arguing?
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
He's basically arguing: more sweat = more pay
So a mailman working in pain in the ass winter conditions or sweltering summer heat should get paid more than a doctor working in an air conditioned clinic at a controlled pace chatting with patients and approving prescriptions.
That means when I worked for $10/hr in the 90s in a plant doing dirty general labour tasks in summer heat, I'd get paid more than the accountant who worked in one of the offices.
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Afraid not.
I didn't grow up painfully poor, but I was one of the kids on the free school lunch line and my parents grew up on the tail end of WW2 rationing so they had that kind of mindset. I have carried that mindset throughout my life.
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