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Are digital gaming services (e.g. gamepass) just experiencing the same pushback streaming music and movies initially did?

ZywyPL

Banned
Yup, we're experiencing deja vu noe. Some people forget that at the end of the day video games are just an entertainment, a.k.a. a one-and-done type of experience, where just like with movies, TV series, music etc. as soon as you finish one thing you immediately move onto the next one and never look back. And those vocal minorities who have a sick obsession about owning a license have nothing but some serious insecurities/mental issues, those are exactly the same people who fight for their beloved plastic boxes, so you know something's clearly wrong with them.
 

GrayDock

Member
Are you the same guy who had a meltdown on Era because Netflix didn't have every movie and TV show ever made on it?
Nope. I know that even if it has, I wouldn't be able to see/watch every movie/series ever launched nor play every game available (or read books, comics, listen to music, whatever, time is finite), but it doesn't mean that I would not like to have most options on a single service, like Netflix was and Gamepass will never be.
 

ManaByte

Member
Nope. I know that even if it has, I wouldn't be able to see/watch every movie/series ever launched nor play every game available (or read books, comics, listen to music, whatever, time is finite), but it doesn't mean that I would not like to have most options on a single service, like Netflix was and Gamepass will never be.

Netflix only ever had a small handful of movies from each studio. They never had the library of Disney stuff you can get on Disney+ or WB stuff you can get on HBO. Ever.
 

R6Rider

Gold Member
Netflix only ever had a small handful of movies from each studio. They never had the library of Disney stuff you can get on Disney+ or WB stuff you can get on HBO. Ever.
His point still stands, where content that was on Netflix was removed and spread out to various other subscriptions.

It's even worse when you look at it regionally.

Also not sure why you were attempting to call him out on some irrelevant other topic on a completely different site.
 

aclar00

Member
Why is this relevant? I don't see how the degree of engagement makes a difference.

A single game can take weeks or even months to complete for many people, which in turn will cause the value proposition/ROI to drop significantly.

Music can be utilised much more easily given it doesnt take your full attention (driving, cleaning, reading, etc)...movies can also be enjoyed while in the background, such as washing dishes. And as you said, you can more easily watch (complete) a movie a day than you can complete a game. The same cant be said of games. On a per consumer basis there has to be a balance of quantity and quality and ability to utilize the service.

Not that companies care so much what you listen to, watch or play...hell the less you activately participate in the service the better...more sunscription money, but less royalties i assume.

Not only that, but pricing in a service's infancy likely isnt a good representation of what the pricing will be once the service is mature. The current pricing is to lure you in hopes you pay and forget.

Then you have the inevitable competition. MSFT is likely smart in this regard as they are preemptively attempting to stifle competting service under than guise of increasing value. Essentially, not only Gamepass competition for Sony (luring gamers away), but it also prevents Activision with its large catelog from pulling a Disney on MSFT and creating its own service.

Nonetheless, we'll likely have 3 or more services if this is pulled off, unless for one reason or another, the subscription services dont end up like movie/television and moreso like music where you see games from nearly all publishers on all subscription services with exclusives limited to those created by the service providers, e.g. MSFT and Sony
 

twerkouting

Banned
No.

As a career software engineer, from my perspective it's more about destroying the value of software and making it so that some giant corporate overlord decides what gets to exist and what doesn't. Same problem with the App Store and iOS rules. People should be able to publish whatever software they want on iPhones. As the saying goes, we are in a time where people will spend five bucks on a daily coffee while thinking a one time 99 cent fee is too much for software.

That kind of value proposition is just not sustainable. Game Pass only exists because Microsoft can subsidize it from profits of products that actually sell elsewhere in the company. I never want to be in the B2C software space at this point, it's just too much of a headache. But, I am about to sign up for three years of Xbox Live, and will happily give MS ... one dollar ... to get that three years of GP conversion. Tremendous value for me. Absolutely unsustainable model for the industry and creators.

Streaming music DID destroy the music industry, but it was a side effect of so many people stealing music since it was so easy to do (I've always preferred buying music to support the artists, just like I like buying games to directly support the studios). Artists used to be able to sell albums and support themselves doing so. I know people who were VERY independent artists but could still make good money on album sales. Streaming music has even destroyed my buying habits even though I used to buy a couple albums a month. Now .. why? I just go click "add to library" in Apple Music and there it is. And the artist gets basically nothing. It's sad.


All of this. I think a lot of what separates people for and against streaming is what they play games for and how they engage with them. All the pros I've seen for Gamepass have been things like "I can try something I wouldn't have bought or had to have pirated otherwise," usually coupled with some sentiment akin to "I have so many games that I never play anyway" which, I feel speaks to a lack of engagement with the games they play.

I personally don't just buy every game that I think looks interesting; there's no point. I know what my tastes are, I know what I find engaging, I know what I'm going to spend my time playing. It'll get good chunk of my free time and want to have spent that time knowing I'm going to enjoy myself and I want to support the devs who make those games with my money, not some service that uses play metrics to decide what gets on it.
 
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chonga

Member
I don’t remember any pushback from customers regarding music subscriptions, more of a pushback from the industry itself? I think people embraced Spotify style subscriptions (and Napster before that) very quickly?
Yeah I don't recall any major crying about subs for other forms of entertainment.

The only crying around film and TV relates to not wanting to sub to 50 services to view everything. That's not an issue with music, and never really has been. The industry did drag it's heels but thankfully licencing models in some countries permitted a quick route to essentially everything being on one service.

And it is those same arguments you see now. People don't want these acquisitions and sub modes because it segments the market, despite claims to do the opposite. The customer always loses in these scenarios, the DF guys yesterday made that perfectly clear. History has been written many times on this exact scenario and it always ends up the same way.
 
I'll probably get a lot of pushback from this but a lot of ps gamers have never been outside the PS bubble so if Sony isn't pursuing it, then no one should be doing it.

With the purchase of Activision, a lot of people are angry that Xbox and Gamepass are going to be successful and take users away from their chosen console.

Digital games and "not owning" them has been the normal for over a decade on PC. Most PS gamers on GAF claim to have a PC on top of their console, yet they can't get around the idea of digital games and subscription services. Either many people are deluded and in denial or they are so loyal to a console that it's drove them to madness.
 

Plantoid

Member
Game streaming is harder than Music and Video streaming.

Most countries have a shitty internet not good enough for a enjoyable streaming experience.
I disagree, was at my uncle's last weekend and played Jedi fallen order on the hardest difficulty, i can't say zero lag, but if there was some i didn't notice, my only complaint was the lack of vibration on the controller

Using galaxy s20fe + 5ghz fiber connection

I live in a third world country and in a small city.

With the advent of 5g I expect it to run even better
 

MonarchJT

Banned
I don’t remember any pushback from customers regarding music subscriptions, more of a pushback from the industry itself? I think people embraced Spotify style subscriptions (and Napster before that) very quickly?
there was a of course a pushback initially expecially regarding the quality
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
The world has shown that streaming music and movies is now the norm for 90 percent of the general public. Game pass will be the same and so will Sonys once it launches.

I think you’re onto something op. Any pushback is from those that don’t have access to it tbh.
 
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Three

Member
The world has shown that streaming music and movies is now the norm for 90 percent of the general public. Game pass will be the same and so will Sonys once it launches.

I think you’re onto something op. Any pushback is from those that don’t have access to it tbh.
Dude Sony's has launched already. It launched before anybody elses. Nobody cares. Will they in the future? maybe but that's not because 'they don't have access to it'
 
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ChiefDada

Member
I have nothing against subscription services in general. I was a PC Gamepass subscriber. I subscribe to Spotify and Netflix. But I think gaming is a bit different.

- when I play, my game time is limited by my wife / my kid / my job, a lot more than by my money. That's why it's not really interesting for me to have 200+ games (and it wouldn't change anything if you added 1000 other games), I can only play a few of them every year anyway, which is a major difference with Netflix where you'll usually watch dozens of movies and episodes every year. After all, watching a full movie takes 2h, playing a game to the end can take 30 hours+. And there are plenty of other ways to get great games for cheap (Steam sales, PS sales, Humble Bundle, Epic Store...) without subscribing.

- gaming being cheap as a hobby means there's no reason not to just buy the best games every year, at least all the games you want to play, you generally won't play so many of them anyway. Play what you want, when you want. Subscription models don't allow that.

- subscriptions generally don't include the best content, I mean the games I generally want to play. Netflix has a bit of the same problem, there is a lack of quality content. Greatest movies you can't generally get them day 1 in subscription models, and it's the same for the greatest games. Which makes sense because if you want to keep your subscription cheap, you can't have many big budget titles. Or you need to create a very expensive sub tier and nobody will like that.

- subscription tells me what I can play and when. I hate that. I want to be free the game I want when I want. That's why I like Spotify a lot more than Netflix by the way. That's not about owning games, it's the fact I can play them when I want. With a subscription model, sometimes the game I want is not in the sub, sometimes it's not here day 1, and sometimes it was on the sub but it was removed. I don't like that. I like Spotify because I can play any music at any time.

For all those reasons, I'm not convinced subscription models are the only future of gaming. They will be part of the future, but not the only future in my opinion. They just fit gaming a lot less than they fit music. And less than movies too.

Subscriptions are mostly great for one category of gamers though, those with a lot of time on their hands who want to play a lot of games, which is I think a minority among gamers because it excludes both gamers who play the same 3 GaaS games every year and people with not so much time on their hands. So for example Gamepass right now is great for most people here on GAF, for sure, because they play a lot of different games and mostly have the time to do so.

So it's not "pushback", it's just it fits different media differently. Subscription model is perfect for music. It's more or less okay for series. It looks less interesting for games. Not for us obviously, but for the majority of people. For us, subscription models in gaming is generally great, that's where GAF dissonance comes from. But we're dinosaurs. We're the exceptions, not the majority. Majority either plays the same 3 F2P every year OR they're older and they don't have time playing dozens of games. Subscription models is mostly useless for both of those groups.

Was just about to post long reply, but then I realized just how well you nailed it, especially the bold. Thanks!
 

Hendrick's

Member
Of course it is. The same conversations were had around music and then TV, and now no one bats an eye about streaming or subscription services in those areas. It has become the standard.
 

TonyK

Member
I don't have the same problem with music or movies because my investment in time and effort is bigger in video games. I never would have finished Sekiro if it was a Gamepass game.

I had Gamepass for two years in PC and only I finished one game from the service. Also, I never finished one game from PS+. However, I try to finish all the games I buy. I don't know why, but a "free" game don't encourage me to do any effort. And if try some free game I really like, I buy it and then I play the bought version.

But I know I'm a minority and the market will follow the same trend than video and music.
 

Leyasu

Banned
And devs who fear their business getting destroyed by a business model that caused a massacre on music, cinema and tv.
Yawn. The same devs who can refuse to put their games on any service if they don't feel that the deal s fair. Unless Microsoft are sending round the hit squads if they refuse.
 
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Notabueno

Banned
Pushback? The majority of pushback comes from the people that don't have access to it or from those that want to own their games.

The majority of subscribers you see talking about it on forums are more than happy with the service and value provided.

What a bunch of astroturfing bullshit.

That's why Stadia is so successful? GTFO
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
Personally I think the fear isn't even that so much. I think many simply dont like streaming because they realize other people are ok with streaming and are playing tons of games for cheap while they are purists buying them for $60 or $70 so they feel like they are getting ripped off, or mad other people arent so elitist like them buying copies as they play a streamed version at shittier resolution.

It's like ecosystem warriors being mad some dude playing on another device half way around the world pisses them off because they want the gamer to conform to his way of gaming.
Yeah you have a point there.

I’ve used both Stadia and Geforce Now and both work fine for me, Stadia was technically amazing but having to port games for a service ”nobody” was using obviously didn’t work. It’s amazing it’s still up. And for both Stadia and GFN the main problem is that you’re still buying separate games as usual, at full price. It’s as if you would still buy movies as usual at full price on Netflix. It’s a crap deal.

Xbox Cloud has the subscription library advantage but that service unfortunately don’t work at my place when it comes to latency and framerate stutter. It’s easily the worst one technically for me. Plus MS needs a Chromecast-like device that everyone can use, plug and play, or an app included by default on TVs.

It’s not easy to get all aspects right, but that’s what’s needs to happen. I absolutely think that once someone nails this things are going to explode in popularity.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
Came across this in my twitter feed today, just to restate what I already said. I am far from the only person who sees how bad this could end up being for creators. If you don't know who this is, this guy knows his stuff.

 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
Dude Sony's has launched already. It launched before anybody elses. Nobody cares. Will they in the future? maybe but that's not because 'they don't have access to it'
Yeah, but Sonys is currently shit and a dip in the water. I meant the launch of spartacus where they will basically reshape it all.
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
I don't have the same problem with music or movies because my investment in time and effort is bigger in video games. I never would have finished Sekiro if it was a Gamepass game.

I had Gamepass for two years in PC and only I finished one game from the service. Also, I never finished one game from PS+. However, I try to finish all the games I buy. I don't know why, but a "free" game don't encourage me to do any effort. And if try some free game I really like, I buy it and then I play the bought version.

But I know I'm a minority and the market will follow the same trend than video and music.

so basically, games aren’t actually good. You just force yourself to complete the ones you’ve paid for. Says a lot about the games industry.
if the content was good enough you would complete it.
 
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Fare thee well

Neophyte
My impression is that things like gamepass are adored. They seem like a great thing so far...

It's NFTs and other crypto/blockchain scams that I feel gamers pushed back hard on. And seeing how predatory they can be and how badly top execs/shareholders want it to be a thing, I share that skepticism and disgust. If gamers want it so badly, I'll gladly let others demonstrate it to me first.
 
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Stuart360

Member
Came across this in my twitter feed today, just to restate what I already said. I am far from the only person who sees how bad this could end up being for creators. If you don't know who this is, this guy knows his stuff.

I dont really see how to be honest. I mean has Netflix, Amazon, and Disney and the rest of the sub services impacted how much tv and movies get made today?, no we get more than ever. Have they effected the budgets for tv and films?, budgets are higher than they have ever been.

I mean even if you honestly believe Gamepass is bad for gaming, if/when Gamepass reaches 100mil subs (which will be years away), that will still only be about a fifth of all gamers that will sub to Gamepass (200+mil active PC gamers, 250-300mil active console gamers accross Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo. And god knows how many mobile gamers).
 
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IDKFA

Gold Member
I think that eventually subscription services like gamepass will become the norm and everyone other than the few weirdos who still have massive physical music and movie collections will be happier as a result.

Absolutely. Give it a few years and subscription won't just be the norm. It'll be the only way you'll be able to play any games.

Microsoft (assuming Sony will also follow) will slowly remove the option to purchase digital games and their next "console" (I'm sure it'll just be a streaming box) will only allow yo stream games via a Gamepass subscription. Previous games you purchased will also be tied to Gamepass, meaning you'll have to sub to stream your old library.

Subscription plus streaming only is the future.

Get with the times or get left behind.
 

WitchHunter

Member
I recall people making the exact same arguments about digital music and movie models. For music, the arguments were all over the place from ownership issues to wanting to hold a physical CD/record to quality concerns. Over time it seems that people eventually came to an agreement that streaming is the way to go for music. For the price of a CD per month, I can listen to pretty much anything I want (I don't listen to weird obscure indie shit, never had an issue finding something I wanted to listen to on Apple Music).

As for movies, I'm more into film than I am into video games so I was originally one of the people who wasn't happy with what the future looked like. Over time, the convenience of streaming services and amount of money I'm saving won me over. I watch hundreds of movies a year (yes, hundreds. last year I watched a single horror movie ever single day), so I'm saving a shit ton of money through streaming. I was worried that the quality wouldn't be the same, but most of the streaming services offer quality that surpasses my physical BluRays and I just don't see the point of re-buying them in Ultra 4k UHD. I still pick up a few physical movies here and there, but for the most part I'm more than happy to just stream it.

Sure you don't own the movie, but who really gives a shit? I find that most people don't care about the fact that they don't own a movie but a lot of people seem to have an issue with not owning the video game.

I think that eventually subscription services like gamepass will become the norm and everyone other than the few weirdos who still have massive physical music and movie collections will be happier as a result.
Can a band survive on just the income Spotify and other streaming services brings in?
 

Notabueno

Banned
What's weird is that for music, movies and books, digital platforms were the ONLY way to survive against piracy and nobody buying anymore, for many anachronic reasons I won't get into.

The result is that it killed the little revenue and all hopes of selling again, and publishers have never been able to go back to a decent earning per titles, but movies have theaters and music has live venues.

For video game, because it is the only media with a differential pricing unlike the standard pricing of other medium, is making major revenues on sales, but streaming services will absolutely destroy that, unless they're betting on micro-transactions alone to replace the whole revenue base from sales, which is highly unlikely. And video games, unlike music or movies, don't have arcades to make-up for that massive drop of the sales revenues.

So not only does it not make sense for consumers, even though most consumers are comparable to animals you can make pay not to purchase and own anything with their own money, but for the industry on the other hand, it's like doing harakiri when nobody asked them too. This is, as someone mentioned above, sacrificing the whole sales revenue mass in order to consolidate platform licences ownership for speculative interest, while destroying the market. Except, again, making and selling a video game, is not the same as making or selling music and movies...
 
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Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
I honestly think the way people are happily embracing and anticipating an all digital, subscription-based or cloud-based future are much weirder than the few guys who have a massive collection of physical games on their wall.
What if I don't want to have rows of plastic on my wall? I am extremely thoughtful on how I use the space in my apartment, for me keeping things to a minimum is important.
I only buy physical books of a series I care about and then with the same graphics design. To give you an example:

This book costs 7.60€
The same series with a much more attractive design costs double

Guess which one I bought? Everything else goes on Kindle.

I would much rather have paintings and statues at my place than rows of plastic disc cases.
 

bender

What time is it?
Humanity is doomed

 

bad guy

as bad as Danny Zuko in gym knickers
Music and Film are perfect for streaming because they can be buffered.
Games are a different beast.
 

NikuNashi

Member
At this point Music, Tv and to some extent movies are fast food, throw away junk. Streaming services are perfect for this, mindless low level pass time. Games are different, depending on the genre it can range from 8 to 12 to 40 to 100 hours of engagement from a single game.

I went balls deep in SFIV, from 2009 - 2015 I played it daily, for a 40usd doller game (plus a madcatz stick, rip). That's 6 years engagement from one game. Why would I need a streaming service of constant daily junk food when from a one time purchase I can play for 6 years.
 

K2D

Member
Yup, we're experiencing deja vu noe. Some people forget that at the end of the day video games are just an entertainment, a.k.a. a one-and-done type of experience,.. *more inane ramblings*

It's almost as
if different people have a other ways
of playing games than you.. I know, unphatomable..! *shock*
 
Game pass is experiencing pushback? As a XSX, PS5 and Switch owner it is insane value for money and I would recommend it highly.
 
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Three

Member
Yeah, but Sonys is currently shit and a dip in the water. I meant the launch of spartacus where they will basically reshape it all.
Why is it shit though, because it doesn't have day one games because the type of games wouldn't make sense on the service. What will spartacus change? The answer to that is probably why you will get pushback.

Unlike music streaming and subscriptions, game streaming and subscriptions change the type of games being made. Monetisation becomes different. Big budget single player games make less sense on the service. GaaS and mtx filled games do. People maximise profit, ever wondered why youtube videos are usually 10mins long with a stupid long intro of logos flying about? It was because of how youtube did monetisation. When they changed from number of views to time spent in video and the fact that you can add ads anywhere in 10min vids. Going from sales to engagement only in games would mean the same thing. Gaas and MTX games will dominate. Big single player games will struggle to make money on the service.
 

Haggard

Banned
Comparing interactive software with passive media consumption like music/movies is pretty much nonsense.
The technical hurdles for game streaming are in a different dimension if it`s supposed to be a great experience for everyone and not just a few lucky people living right next to a data center....
 

rofif

Member
I buy music from band camp or soundtrack from games are often included.
Music I can’t find anywhere, I just pirate(usually obscure old game music).
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
The vast majority of people are OK with Digital. The problem comes when people are trying to promote/remove the existence of physical. We need both.
 

Brofist

Member
At this point Music, Tv and to some extent movies are fast food, throw away junk. Streaming services are perfect for this, mindless low level pass time. Games are different, depending on the genre it can range from 8 to 12 to 40 to 100 hours of engagement from a single game.

I went balls deep in SFIV, from 2009 - 2015 I played it daily, for a 40usd doller game (plus a madcatz stick, rip). That's 6 years engagement from one game. Why would I need a streaming service of constant daily junk food when from a one time purchase I can play for 6 years.
It's safe to say if you are playing one game for 6 years a game sub isn't for you. It's has nothing to do with the quality of games on said service which I wouldn't personally equate to "junk food" since there are quite a number of good ones.
 

K2D

Member
My biggest fear is that services and acquisitions like these make traditional videogame transactions obsolete. You certainly are if one or two companies coral big chunks of the consumer masses.
 

Tams

Member
I recall people making the exact same arguments about digital music and movie models. For music, the arguments were all over the place from ownership issues to wanting to hold a physical CD/record to quality concerns. Over time it seems that people eventually came to an agreement that streaming is the way to go for music. For the price of a CD per month, I can listen to pretty much anything I want (I don't listen to weird obscure indie shit, never had an issue finding something I wanted to listen to on Apple Music).

As for movies, I'm more into film than I am into video games so I was originally one of the people who wasn't happy with what the future looked like. Over time, the convenience of streaming services and amount of money I'm saving won me over. I watch hundreds of movies a year (yes, hundreds. last year I watched a single horror movie ever single day), so I'm saving a shit ton of money through streaming. I was worried that the quality wouldn't be the same, but most of the streaming services offer quality that surpasses my physical BluRays and I just don't see the point of re-buying them in Ultra 4k UHD. I still pick up a few physical movies here and there, but for the most part I'm more than happy to just stream it.

Sure you don't own the movie, but who really gives a shit? I find that most people don't care about the fact that they don't own a movie but a lot of people seem to have an issue with not owning the video game.

I think that eventually subscription services like gamepass will become the norm and everyone other than the few weirdos who still have massive physical music and movie collections will be happier as a result.
Gamespass seems to be doing well though?

I'm no fan of it, but to me:
  • Music isn't worth much to me and is often just a distraction/background noise. I don't care about owning it.
  • I do own quite a few Blu-rays and am currently only subscribed to Amazon Prime (and not really for the video streaming).
  • I don't subscribe to a games service and buy physical when I can.
  • I have no problem being a filthy pirate when the mood strikes me.
I am concerned that digital services are too easy for companies to just take away. I've already lost some digital purchases (Games for Windows Marketplace). And guess what? I still have game CDs and DVDs that work (now safely ripped and backed-up).

I think the differentiator for my tolerance is time spent and the amount of different content I consume.
  • Music
    • three - five (rarely these days) minutes per song. Maybe 40 minutes for an album.
    • It's disposable. Just background noise often.
    • An enormous amount of choice that's always growing quickly.
    • Small different chunks that I want to dip into often in one sitting.
    • I'll listen to hundreds or thousands of different songs a year.
    • - so it fits a subscription very well
  • Films/TV
    • 40 minutes - 3 hours each
    • Less disposable.
    • Requires more of my attention, if not my full attention.
    • Less choice and it doesn't grow as quickly.
    • Only really choose one or two (one for films) per sitting. Not looking for something different/new anywhere near as often.
    • I'll watch maybe five TV shows (of 12-25 episodes) and perhaps fifteen to thirty films a year.
    • - so they don't fit subscriptions as well.
  • Games
    • Anything from 3 hours to 300 or more hours.
    • Not disposable.
    • Require my full attention.
    • Even less choice that grows even slower.
    • Absolutely only choose one per sitting. No desire to go looking for something new when I want to play (doing that happens naturally elsewhere or I waste time at work, etc.)
    • I'll play at most twenty games a year, but really more like ten.
    • - so they don't really fit subscriptions.
  • Books
    • 3-7 (?) hours per decent sized book.
    • Less disposable.
    • Require my full attention.
    • Less choice than music and the choice doesn't grow as quickly.
    • One per sitting. Don't go looking for something new at the same time.
    • Maybe ten to twenty books a year.
    • - so they don't fit subscriptions too well (but the ones available are all bad value for money so...)
    • Comics/manga would be somewhat more amenable to a subscription model, but there's not really much choice.

tl;dr: If I know what I want, then a subscription doesn't really make much sense. And as I've gotten older, I've become more assured of what I want (less bingeing stuff).
 
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