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[DenchDeckard]

Since when has PC identified as blue?

Pc is green or red and always stays winning.
Sprinkle some blue in for intel....

It has every one covered. It's why it's the best.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

 

[PaintTinJr]

Clearly not someone that can't see what is in front of them.

This game doesnt look or feel like a Source game.

The actual gameplay from Granny in-game-engine cinematic shows old source engine hard shadows - from the swaying trees onto the cabin - that are yielding false depth tests because a right to left cast shadow shouldn't produce a temporary island shadow and maybe shouldn't produce any cabin front facing shadow at all - based on the swaying tree's position -and these are definitely not problems UE3 or UE4's default lighting system will throw at such short draw distance.

Then look at the basic materials model running on lots of background assets like cupboards and drawers. They aren't even at orange box level of multi-layered texturing, They look purely functional and no more. Then look at the water rendering and sections like that used to hide loading screens - like they did in HL games. Not to mention old-school alpha channel fire fx, and heavily facetted models, with non-blended animations at the limits of an older version of the Source engine. RT would also be a default lighting option available to PC if it was UE4 based, even if it ran as poorly as Crysis did back in the day on high-end PC, and most of the games lighting is all pre-calculated source engine(idTech) lightmaps from what I observed too.

Then look at the gameplay tropes of Source Engine games, heavy reliance on hand swinging items/weapons - wow, we start with a crowbar, sorry I meant Axe - very subtitle text driven puzzle/story mechanics, and full use of the keyboard - that maps poorly to pad compared to console designed FPSes - and makes for very wooden control pad battles with NPCs, compared to Mouse/Keyboard. Even the NPC movement is very direct and old-school, of Source Engine. and the whole story is delivered in identical fashion, like it happens that way because of the engine style, rather than a game direction design choice.

If you can't technically see Source engine comparative issues in the 15-60mins where real gameplay starts, you should at least be able to acknowledge the consistent use of HL/source engine tropes - not least the save system - if you have played both games and were observant of what you played.

 

[Ribi]

1500dollar stutterfest machine? fuck no.

That didn't answer my question

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

You believed marketing?

Jason Ronald who actually designed the machines was pretty clear before launch that they would let developers decide and that they could lower other graphical effects that didn't affect gameplay, the interview is well known by now.

Also Microsoft is not responsible for third parties and the performance of their games, no more than Sony is when something doesn't run as well on PS.

Yes Forza will be interesting on both consoles but it will prove that the Series S is capable of RT in the right hands.

Still investigating

 

[Panajev2001a]

I know that Cerny is a great engineer and architect but sometimes I wonder why the Xbox guys don't receive the same praise.

Based on some comparatives both machines are quite similar, sometimes one better than the other. However, Xbox is smaller, quieter and most importantly, according to DF, consumes less power, sometimes much less, when running the same game. For me, the X seems better design and nobody talk about the Xbox architects. I never heard who they are. Is Jason Ronald the main architect?

No, Jason Ronald is not one of the architects but the main project manager behind it. He did not design the machine.

Part of the reason of what you notice is that PS5 was assumed to be comically inferior and its architecture unbalanced and a lot of vitriol was thrown at it from every angle: RDNA 1.5, GitHub leak with no RT or Software RT and 8-9 TFLOPS max, huge fuss about no real HW RT support and how Cerny was playing with words with hardware accelerated RT, how Sony missed the boat with the old primitive shaders instead of Mesh Shaders (which AMD now finally nipped in the bud), how the unit would be super difficult to manufacture due to high clocks and the console would throttle all the time making it difficult to code for, how the 2 TFLOPS and “true RDNA2” differences were going to leave PS5 in the dust (just you watch, any day now…).

Fast forward a bit later and the picture does not match that and the system design is actually pretty great and balanced (interesting mix of new bets and evolution of previous trends) and again the promise of having longevity but also not being unnecessarily hard to develop for (“time to triangle” metric, investing in HW and SW to make high performance easier/practical to tap into and then evolve and max out with additional investment)… all while the console was breaking even close after launch and their thermal / silicon design allowed them to iterate well on the cooling and system design to keep shaving unit cost down and invest that in manufacturing more and more consoles.

Considering PS5 has an excellent rest / low power mode since the beginning and it does not dramatically use / waste more power than XSX and it reasonably quiet (a lot of progress there), all the other bits and pieces I mentioned above are what architecture design is about: ease of development, tools, manufacturing and cost reduction, platform evolution, etc… they did a great job at that (XSX is also a very nice design).

 

[DragonNCM]

I bet you'll be saying this in 2035...lol. I wasn't saying it. There was also the people saying that the ps5 would beat pcs for years to come thanks to its untouchable god like io. There's crazy on both sides, just laugh at it.

PC is destroying consoles now just like it has for every gen.

I'm shocked...2k PC destroying 500$ console......how is it possible ?

 

[DenchDeckard]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

No ideas on this one?

I'm shocked...2k PC destroying 500$ console......how is it possible ?

Yup, You pay for the best

 

[Riky]

No ideas on this one?

Isn't it a new developer from eastern Europe or Russia? I think they are probably a very PC focused team and then have to port to the shared memory architecture of the consoles.
It's happened before.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Isn't it a new developer from eastern Europe or Russia? I think they are probably a very PC focused team and then have to port to the shared memory architecture of the consoles.
It's happened before.

This is what I'm thinking. PC is huge in Europe and they probs have a lot more experience and that platform will have been their main focus.

 

[01011001]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

don't ever try to use logic on Neogaf

 

[adamsapple]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

 

[Silent Viper]

Time for MS to release the Series Pro version.

Its mess on console as well.

Devs botched SX and PC version. Frame drop even on 3080 PCs. So what you have to say about PC version?

Funny how people always blame hardware when it comes to console snd not devs for bad optimisation.

There are plenty of games which are more demanding looks and run better on console than this game

 

[Silent Viper]

Mark Cerny is just a meme really, I love it, it's pretty obvious the xbox and ps5 are almost identical.

SX is better in terms of specs but thanks to MS lack of games showcasing its power and poor optimisation by 3rd party devs, shows SX as weaker system which in result gives ammo to fanboys to bash it.

 

[MasterCornholio]

SX is better in terms of specs but thanks to MS lack of games showcasing its power and poor optimisation by 3rd party devs, shows SX as weaker system which in result gives ammo to fanboys to bash it.

I don't think that's true. There's no guarantee that every single game will be better on the XSX. The two are similar enough that results will flip flop.

 

[Lysandros]

SX is better in terms of specs but thanks to MS lack of games showcasing its power and poor optimisation by 3rd party devs, shows SX as weaker system which in result gives ammo to fanboys to bash it.

If one is being very selective about those specs discounting inconvenient parts of it that is. Those same specs tell us that PS5 GPU is running at 22% higher frequency thus (knowing the basics of the architecture) has higher rasterization and pixel fill rate among (many) other things. SSD-I/O side of things is also very much part of those specs. So by the data at hand, by which logic and certainty are we expluding those parts and declaring XSX the 'spec champion' may i ask?

 

[01011001]

If one is being very selective about those specs discounting inconvenient parts of it that is. Those same specs tell us that PS5 GPU is running at 22% higher frequency thus (knowing the basics of the architecture) has higher rasterization and pixel fill rate among (many) other things. SSD-I/O side of things is also very much part of those specs. So by the data at hand, by which logic and certainty are we expluding those parts and declaring XSX the 'spec champion' may i ask?

it has been demonstrated a bunch of times that fast clocks in RDNA PC GPUs do not result in better performance compared to slower GPUs that are wider.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

If one is being very selective about those specs discounting inconvenient parts of it that is. Those same specs tell us that PS5 GPU is running at 22% higher frequency thus (knowing the basics of the architecture) has higher rasterization and pixel fill rate among (many) other things. SSD-I/O side of things is also very much part of those specs. So by the data at hand, by which logic and certainty are we expluding those parts and declaring XSX the 'spec champion' may i ask?

the logic is he like the xsx more

 

[onQ123]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

If the problem is data driven it might be the fact that consoles have shared memory + SSD vs PC that has dedicated memory for the GPU + Main Memory + SSD

 

[Loxus]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

It depends on a lot of things really.

2080 has more TDP: 215 W just for the GPU alone.
Better Raytracing; this is quite obvious really.
DLSS; needs no explanation.
Games; basically some games performe better on NVidia cards and vice-versa.

Same for the Ryzen 3600, higher TDP, clocks and Cache.

Nvme loading speed is game dependent. Some games still use the old loading method.

More RAM; it's basically System RAM + VRAM vs ~13 GB of shared VRAM.

This can be applied to the PS5 and XBSX. Remember these are custom hardware, despite being on the same architecture.
Performance can come down to simple things like API, higher clocks, more GPU CUs, IO Complex, ect.

Game performance doesn't revolve around GPU CUs and it isn't like games performs instantly better on one console than the other. It normally something like 4-5 fps and a couple 100 more pixels.

 

[Woody337]

it has been demonstrated a bunch of times that fast clocks in RDNA PC GPUs do not result in better performance compared to slower GPUs that are wider.

Games on the Series X with framerate issues do not back up your claim at all.

 

[Black_Stride]

A770 with some settings tweaks could be a 1440p60 card with this game.
If it had FSR2 and/or XeSS FauxK60 would be on the table.

Damn.
I really want to build a bottom of the barrel (not really) all Intel A770 based machine just for the fuck of testing games on it.

12100 - $100
B660M - $100
16GB RAM - $40
1TB SSD - $50
Arc A770 - $300
600W PSU - $60

~650 dollars?

Im sure I can find a loose 650 somewhere.
Donations accepted.

 

[systemr123]

No, Jason Ronald is not one of the architects but the main project managers behind it. He did not design the machine.

Part of the reason of what you notice is that PS5 was assumed to be comically inferior and its architecture unbalanced and a lot of vitriol was thrown at it from every angle: RDNA 1.5, GitHub leak with no RT or Software RT and 8-9 TFLOPS max, huge fuss about no real HW RT support and how Cerny was playing with words with hardware accelerated RT, how Sony missed the boat with the old primitive shaders instead of Mesh Shaders (which AMD now finally nipped in the bud), how the unit would be super difficult to manufacture due to high clocks and the console would throttle all the time making it difficult to code for, how the 2 TFLOPS and “true RDNA2” differences were going to leave PS5 in the dust (just you watch, any day now…).

Fast forward a bit later and the picture does not match that and the system design is actually pretty great and balanced (interesting mix of new bets and evolution of previous trends) and again the promise of having longevity but also not being unnecessarily hard to develop for (“time to triangle” metric, investing in HW and SW to make high performance easier/practical to tap into and then evolve and max out with additional investment)… all while the console was breaking even close after launch and their thermal / silicon design allowed them to iterate well on the cooling and system design to keep shaving unit cost down and invest that in manufacturing more and more consoles.

Considering PS5 has an excellent rest / low power mode since the beginning and it does not dramatically use / waste more power than XSX and it reasonably quiet (a lot of progress there), all the other bits and pieces I mentioned above are what architecture design is about: ease of development, tools, manufacturing and cost reduction, platform evolution, etc… they did a great job at that (XSX is also a very nice design).

Both consoles are really nicely designed. As long as you don’t look at the internals the Xbox I think looks great. On the inside though phew. PS5 looks like a well thought out factory floor while the Xbox series X looks like they just tried to cram in as much stuff as they could. Luckily we don’t see the internals during gameplay though

 

[Danknugz]

my honda is better than your toyota

 

[Black_Stride]

my honda is better than your toyota

Is your Honda an NSX?

 

[Neo_game]

I have a genuine question for the tech specialists who post heavily in these threads with their theories on why one version is performing worse than the others.

Can you explain why a pc with say 8gb of vram and a 2080 gpu amd ryzen 3600 512gb nvme drive that's like 1800mbs read would beat the consoles?

Much worse io than a ps5 for example yet performs better in this game. Why would that be?

RT performance is more like 2060S. Some games can perform till 2080S level I guess but this PC will easily outperform anything on consoles in 99% of games.. I think GTX 1650 will outperform SS or pretty much any decent laptop. Though comparison between PC and console is not fair

 

[polybius80]

Watch the DF video again. The Series X isn't just stuttering. It has prolonged periods of running at a much lower framerate. A stutter can be due to an access miss or something. Running at a lower FPS for prolonged durations of time speaks more to RAM or its availability. It means the entire engine is getting bottlenecked somehow. We know it's not a raster bottleneck, it also isnt an IO bottleneck being that the game is on the previous-gen consoles too. That leaves memory being the only possible culprit. And what is the only difference between the memory on the PS5 and that of the XS consoles?

you are talking as if the software doesnt matter or that it has 0 overhead, who knows if there are things in the api that take to long to resolve compared to the other. I am not blaming "the tools" necesarily but the consoles are not exactly the same in both hardware and software to be that reductionist about what causes the "problem"

small teams work on games due to passion,
big teams work on games because their boss told them so.

see Hi-Fi Rush, smaller project directed by a guy that really wanted to make this game... it's UE4, it's DX12, it has basically zero stutters

just because it uses DX12 doesnt mean its going to stutter for the sake of it or that if a smaller scale game doesnt stutter then DX12 wont have issues in more demanding games with probably way more heavy shaders and processes, in fact you arent even comparing the games you are just equating them for using the same engine and api which is flawed argument


I dont know how passionate each team is, you can be very passionate about a game you are developing but that is not going to make an engine/api someone else wrote to run better

 

[ChiefDada]

In the months leading up to the console launch a certain group of people swore up and down that all multiplatform games would perform better on XSX. Now that we see this couldn't be further from the truth, they then blame XSX performance shortcomings on moneyhatting when games happen to be marketed under PS (Callisto Protocol, Harry Potter), and for games where there is no platform specific deal or even better, Xbox sponsored games like Atomic Heart here, they blame the weaker performance on lack of optimization. At what point do they just say enough is enough and choose the console that doesn't have so many issues working against it (assuming they can't purchase both), regardless of what those issues are or why they exist? What is so enticing about living in denial 24/7?

 

[SkyHighTrees]

In the months leading up to the console launch a certain group of people swore up and down that all multiplatform games would perform better on XSX. Now that we see this couldn't be further from the truth, they then blame XSX performance shortcomings on moneyhatting when games happen to be marketed under PS (Callisto Protocol, Harry Potter), and for games where there is no platform specific deal or even better, Xbox sponsored games like Atomic Heart here, they blame the weaker performance on lack of optimization. At what point do they just say enough is enough and choose the console that doesn't have so many issues working against it (assuming they can't purchase both), regardless of what those issues are or why they exist? What is so enticing about living in denial 24/7?

It's laughable. I knew it was BS back then, incredible how they still maintain the narrative

 

[MasterCornholio]

In the months leading up to the console launch a certain group of people swore up and down that all multiplatform games would perform better on XSX. Now that we see this couldn't be further from the truth, they then blame XSX performance shortcomings on moneyhatting when games happen to be marketed under PS (Callisto Protocol, Harry Potter), and for games where there is no platform specific deal or even better, Xbox sponsored games like Atomic Heart here, they blame the weaker performance on lack of optimization. At what point do they just say enough is enough and choose the console that doesn't have so many issues working against it (assuming they can't purchase both), regardless of what those issues are or why they exist? What is so enticing about living in denial 24/7?

I think we are far enough into this gen that we have a good idea on how powerful each system is. Tools are fine by this point and both systems are fully activated.

 

[onQ123]

In the months leading up to the console launch a certain group of people swore up and down that all multiplatform games would perform better on XSX. Now that we see this couldn't be further from the truth, they then blame XSX performance shortcomings on moneyhatting when games happen to be marketed under PS (Callisto Protocol, Harry Potter), and for games where there is no platform specific deal or even better, Xbox sponsored games like Atomic Heart here, they blame the weaker performance on lack of optimization. At what point do they just say enough is enough and choose the console that doesn't have so many issues working against it (assuming they can't purchase both), regardless of what those issues are or why they exist? What is so enticing about living in denial 24/7?

I gave them fair warning

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/if-m...e-else-using-it-to-compare-it-to-ps5.1562061/



https://www.neogaf.com/threads/40-c...t-way-to-compare-ps5-xbox-sx-for-now.1533360/

 

[onQ123]

I think we are far enough into this gen that we have a good idea on how powerful each system is. Tools are fine by this point and both systems are fully activated.

Truthy we haven't seen half of what these consoles can do because their userbase wasn't big enough to support a Xbox Series X only or PS5 only game that wouldn't need a fall back plan ( Porting it to PC & Last Gen if it don't sell enough on Xbox Series X or PS5)


Keep in mind that no one is brave enough to make a 250GB game right now because of SSD space.

 

[Knightime_X]

How was DF missing these distant details and sharpness? The whole building in the distance and the building on the right next to the statue has much more detail on the PS5.

Because SX version was rushed.

 

[ChiefDada]

Keep in mind that no one is brave enough to make a 250GB game right now because of SSD space.

In due time, my friend:

“And when it comes to really ambitious games and the PS5 and what it can do, and you’re trying to achieve this next-level quality visually, and you have an art director like Raphael Lacoste, and you have these ambitions, you need to think: What does it meant to support the first terabyte game?” Raymond continued. “What does it meant to support this level of data? All of these things that we learnt to make game streaming of this generation possible, are interesting to reach the next level of quality.”

 

[onQ123]

In due time, my friend:

The details would be crazy but it's reach will be shorten to people willing to install a game so big even if it's compressed down to maybe 500GB but it could also be so good that it make more people upgrade their SSDs & chances are we might have 2TB PS5's being sold when the game is released.

Edit: Making games in the cloud they have this advantage because you never have to download it.

 

[Jigsaah]

PC players (me) right now:

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

PC players (me) right now:

 

[Jigsaah]

Mmmmk...

 

[Patrick S.]

I wanted to try this game on PC Gamepass, but since I’m down with the flu I dusted off my old One X and installed it there.

I was expecting some awful, 25fps 720p train wreck with the lowest of low detail, and holy shit, I was SUPER pleasantly surprised; this game looks and plays really really well on the old machine. I might just play it to completion on the One X instead of getting it on the PS5, where I was going to get it if I liked the game.

 

[Venom Snake]

Mmmmk...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Let's visit this tweet again:

 

[Cheezewizz]

Yeah, of course. This point tends to appear quite regularly when PS5 happens to outperform XSX in a game. Luckily there is always a 'something' that renders the result meaningless.

The fact that you're ignoring something as prominent as HDR, and pretending as though the devs did an acceptable job is what I was referring to.

If this were a game that by allappearances was a competently made game, that generally ran well overall with the expected features working as they should... Then you'd have point. But it doesn't.... so you don't.

You're not doing gamers, the industry, or anyone else any favors by pretending it's perfectly acceptable for developers to release a piss poor performing game. So long as it performs better on Playstation.

 

[Mr Moose]

The fact that you're ignoring something as prominent as HDR, and pretending as though the devs did an acceptable job is what I was referring to.

If this were a game that by allappearances was a competently made game, that generally ran well overall with the expected features working as they should... Then you'd have point. But it doesn't.... so you don't.

You're not doing gamers, the industry, or anyone else any favors by pretending it's perfectly acceptable for developers to release a piss poor performing game. So long as it performs better on Playstation.

Doesn't it perform well on PC too?
You should see Elden Ring, it runs like shit and is highly rated.

 

[Cheezewizz]

Doesn't it perform well on PC too?

Are we taking into account that it's missing raytracing despite it being promised previously or not?

You should see Elden Ring, it runs like shit and is highly rated.

Which is why that game shouldn't be used as a console dick measuring contest either. I never said a poorly optimized game couldn't still be enjoyable. Just that it shouldn't be held up as proof of a consoles capabilities.

 

[VeganElduderino]

A770 with some settings tweaks could be a 1440p60 card with this game.
If it had FSR2 and/or XeSS FauxK60 would be on the table.

Damn.
I really want to build a bottom of the barrel (not really) all Intel A770 based machine just for the fuck of testing games on it.

12100 - $100
B660M - $100
16GB RAM - $40
1TB SSD - $50
Arc A770 - $300
600W PSU - $60

~650 dollars?

Im sure I can find a loose 650 somewhere.
Donations accepted.

Damn! My poor 3060 is such a piece of shit!

 

[Mr Moose]

Are we taking into account that it's missing raytracing despite it being promised previously or not?

Which is why that game shouldn't be used as a console dick measuring contest either. I never said a poorly optimized game couldn't still be enjoyable. Just that it shouldn't be held up as proof of a consoles capabilities.

I have no idea, I did notice the reflections on the water don't seem to cast characters though unless I am seeing things. Of course it shouldn't be held as proof, no single game should be, the patches have improved the Xbox Series X version though it does seem to still have some issues, along with a lower res (or its just more blurry rather than a resolution difference, I'm not sure what's going on there).

Damn! My poor 3060 is such a piece of shit!

LMAO same.

 

[rkofan87]

Can't believe I was playing this shit on the S

i was as well

 

[kazuyamishima]

Cerny was laughed for the 1 hour presentation on the PS5 back in 2020.

I guess he’s laughing now

 

[Pimpbaa]

Both consoles are really nicely designed. As long as you don’t look at the internals the Xbox I think looks great. On the inside though phew. PS5 looks like a well thought out factory floor while the Xbox series X looks like they just tried to cram in as much stuff as they could. Luckily we don’t see the internals during gameplay though

How is the PS5 well thought out, is way too big. Everything is so spread out on the motherboard (so much wasted space) and the flash ram plus controller take up more space than a M.2 SSD does. I love the system, it’s my main platform but there is so much room for improvement. The PS5 Slim or whatever it will be called will be the system it should have been to begin with (In terms of size and motherboard design). Biggest problem with the Series X is the big old vent holes on the top letting dust in and the ridiculous cost of storage expansion, but internally how well they crammed everything in such small space is much more impressive IMO.

 

[aries_71]

In the SX and PC versions, you cannot even pick up the neuromodules that bosses drop. Let that sink in. They couldn’t have done a successful playthrough of the game in such a state. What optimization are we talking about?