Bayonetta 3 Director Confirms Recasting Rumors

daveonezero

Member
so why the fuck isn't everyone doing it? clearly if it takes little to no talent all the teenage kids who need a summer job would be voice acting at the biggest studios wouldn't they? if it takes no talent surely Mel Blanc wouldn't be so famous for voicing so many characters?

hell, why don't the programmers just voice act? why do studios actively go out and search for VA's when it requires 0 talent? surely the programmers and directors voices are PERFECT for outlandish, fantasy characters who require specialized and punchy voices?🤦‍♂️
Because there are little to no positions to fill. Little demand for the service means that the supply is high and price is low.

It’s really basic shit and easy to understand.

The harder part then is the value. Is it really worth paying more and will the return on the product be greater if more money is spent on a voice actor?

Developers used to do the voice acting and usually it ended up pretty good. The problems started when guilds and unions got involved.
 
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daveonezero

Member
The voice actor who played Niko in GTA4 got paid 100 K for his work.
So should all voice actors get 100k no matter what they do or how they perform?

It was in this thread that they get paid per hour or per word.

Niko probably has 100s of hours of voice acting work and 1000s of words.

Meanwhile the topic of this thread had something like 4 days of work.
 
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In the video Hellena claims to have created the character... but as far as I can tell Jeanne has the same accent and voice style.. seems the character concept was not hers at all..
 

nush

Member
seems the character concept was not hers at all..
 

Gambit2483

Member
In the video Hellena claims to have created the character... but as far as I can tell Jeanne has the same accent and voice style.. seems the character concept was not hers at all..
Her cadence, inflection and speaking style is what brought the character to life in the English speaking world. Bayonetta's image IS (mostly) due to Helena's portrayal of the character.

This is just a case of insane disrespect towards her contributions over the years. Most actors expect a pay INCREASE when they are key to the success of a franchise, not to be spit in the eye and insulted for "better talent" 10 years later.
 
Her cadence, inflection and speaking style is what brought the character to life in the English speaking world. Bayonetta's image IS (mostly) due to Helena's portrayal of the character.

This is just a case of insane disrespect towards her contributions over the years. Most actors expect a pay INCREASE when they are key to the success of a franchise, not to be spit in the eye and insulted for "better talent" 10 years later.
Disrespect to the director and writer who worked hard to make a character and had a distinct image in their heads and asked the actor to portray the vision they had. Maybe, and others have hinted at this.. the director felt that Hellena did not have the "talent" to achieve the goals they had in Bayonetta 3?

Did Hellena actually do a good job? The acting in both the first two games is meh.. most of the best acting is done by other characters. Maybe Bayonetta would have been a bigger success with a different actor playing Bayonetta?
 
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Gambit2483

Member
Disrespect to the director and writer who worked hard to make a character and had a distinct image in their heads and asked the actor to portray the vision they had. Maybe, and others have hinted at this.. the director felt that Hellena did not have the "talent" to achieve the goals they had in Bayonetta 3?
If she was THAT bad then they wouldn't have offered her the role at all.

Like I said before, Japanese production teams will move heaven and earth to ensure their Japanese voice actors are the same. They DO NOT change long established voice actors, out of honor and respect to the actor and the fans. However they have never had this sense of respect for their English speaking talent.

In Japan, Charles Martinet is probably the only English voice actor whose role (and pay) is all but guaranteed until he dies or physically can no longer do it.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
She should receive a fair amount on how successful the game is. Voice acting is art there isn't a price tag on it.
Is like athletes, they get paid according to their performance. Dismissing her role in the creation of the character like bayonets os insane. Bayo is one of the few character out there that people recognise straight away just by hearing her voice. She had a very important role in the character. I'm not even huge fan of the games like many others by I can recognise these characters from the voice actors performance.
People out here with their hyperbole takes that she's claiming millions.
How do we know that her claims are not also hyperbole? All we've heard from her is how much the final offer was. We have not heard anything about what she initially asked for or any of the negotiations in between. So jumping to defend m'lady's honor after only hearing one side of the story is weird.

I get feeling as though her compensation should be tied to the success of the game, and maybe it should. But let's be real, there are only a small number of superstar actors who actually get a piece of the long term commercials for their acting work. She is by no means in that league. On top of that I'd wager that more people play Bayonetta games to see the character's ass than to hear her voiceover.

I suppose we'll know how much her voice means for the success of the game soon enough.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
4K is definitely not the best they can do. I'd bet Jennifer Hal got a lot more than that. So the question is why did they low-ball Taylor. Like I said in the other thread, I don't think this has anything to do with money. If they didn't want Taylor then they should have just fired her.
We don't know whether 4K is all they offered, we just know that it was the final offer. It's possible that she was was offered more and refused anything other than what she wanted, leading to the point in the negotiating process where she received a final "take it or leave it" offer.

Calling out Jennifer Hale in the way she did says a lot. I think we have to be open to the possibility that she pulled the same "I am Bayonetta" thing during contract negotiations that she's pulling in regard to Hale signing autographs as the character. My bet is that she probably thought she couldn't be replaced in this role and they had to give her what she wanted and they just got fed up with negotiations. If they pulled Jennifer Hale in, which we assume cost more, I have to believe they also offered Taylor more and she refused the offer.
 

SLB1904

Banned
How do we know that her claims are not also hyperbole? All we've heard from her is how much the final offer was. We have not heard anything about what she initially asked for or any of the negotiations in between. So jumping to defend m'lady's honor after only hearing one side of the story is weird.

I get feeling as though her compensation should be tied to the success of the game, and maybe it should. But let's be real, there are only a small number of superstar actors who actually get a piece of the long term commercials for their acting work. She is by no means in that league. On top of that I'd wager that more people play Bayonetta games to see the character's ass than to hear her voiceover.

I suppose we'll know how much her voice means for the success of the game soon enough.
I'm not defending her, like I said before this seems to be an industry wide problem. Not only on games but in animation as well.

My point is they get paid poorly. That's all
 
If they could do the 100k job for a few hours then they would.

I don’t understand the selective market dictates the price principles some have. I get paid a lot more than a ditch digger for the same amount of time. Duh, my knowledge and experience provide more value than someone with a stronger back.

If this chick’s time wasn’t worth it for the company, fine. Don’t tell her she gets the toilet scrubber rate and don’t get mad if she lets people know it

Except it isn't a 100K job, it a 4K job that you want to be a 100K job.
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
Except it isn't a 100K job, it a 4K job that you want to be a 100K job.
Except the actor who helped create the value of the franchise didn’t feel that way, and other VAs have said 4k is a ridiculous sum. I think professional voice actors have more insight into this than you do.

So, it’s probably somewhere in between those two sums, and much closer to 100k than 4k. People are acting like she’s not at all responsible for the previous success of the franchise to justify the studio lowballing her. She did work, she got paid, created value for the studio. The next time she was going to do the work she (I’m assuming) wanted more of a piece of a giant pie she helped create. That’s fair. Just like it’s fair to go into your boss’s office and demand a raise after years of good performance. And if you’re scoffed at, it’s fair to call that bullshit out for what it is. That’s how business works.

A year ago I asked for a promotion and raise after kicking ass in my role, and I got it. If I got told no, I would’ve gone somewhere else and told everyone in my perhaps similarly niche profession to think twice about the company. And anyone with a problem with that scenario could eat a dick.
 
Except the actor who helped create the value of the franchise didn’t feel that way, and other VAs have said 4k is a ridiculous sum. I think professional voice actors have more insight into this than you do.

So, it’s probably somewhere in between those two sums, and much closer to 100k than 4k. People are acting like she’s not at all responsible for the previous success of the franchise to justify the studio lowballing her. She did work, she got paid, created value for the studio. The next time she was going to do the work she (I’m assuming) wanted more of a piece of a giant pie she helped create. That’s fair. Just like it’s fair to go into your boss’s office and demand a raise after years of good performance. And if you’re scoffed at, it’s fair to call that bullshit out for what it is. That’s how business works.

A year ago I asked for a promotion and raise after kicking ass in my role, and I got it. If I got told no, I would’ve gone somewhere else and told everyone in my perhaps similarly niche profession to think twice about the company. And anyone with a problem with that scenario could eat a dick.

There is literally a non-union and union pay rate for voice actor work and this falls in line with that. It's public knowledge.

You might want a voice actor to get paid more than a programmer or an art designer, but that's really ultimately none of your business. At the end of the day as a consumer you can choose to buy something or not buy something for whatever reason, and that's really it at the end.

It's fair to reject work if it isn't in line with what you think you deserve. Breaking an NDA and publicly having a manic episode? She's destroyed what is left of her career and she'll likely never work on a major product again. Worse, Platinum will probably go after her for breaking her NDA.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
Except the actor who helped create the value of the franchise didn’t feel that way, and other VAs have said 4k is a ridiculous sum. I think professional voice actors have more insight into this than you do.

So, it’s probably somewhere in between those two sums, and much closer to 100k than 4k. People are acting like she’s not at all responsible for the previous success of the franchise to justify the studio lowballing her. She did work, she got paid, created value for the studio. The next time she was going to do the work she (I’m assuming) wanted more of a piece of a giant pie she helped create. That’s fair. Just like it’s fair to go into your boss’s office and demand a raise after years of good performance. And if you’re scoffed at, it’s fair to call that bullshit out for what it is. That’s how business works.

A year ago I asked for a promotion and raise after kicking ass in my role, and I got it. If I got told no, I would’ve gone somewhere else and told everyone in my perhaps similarly niche profession to think twice about the company. And anyone with a problem with that scenario could eat a dick.
She also said donate that money to charity. She didn’t link her patreon or start a kickstarter.
 
We don't know whether 4K is all they offered, we just know that it was the final offer. It's possible that she was was offered more and refused anything other than what she wanted, leading to the point in the negotiating process where she received a final "take it or leave it" offer.

Calling out Jennifer Hale in the way she did says a lot. I think we have to be open to the possibility that she pulled the same "I am Bayonetta" thing during contract negotiations that she's pulling in regard to Hale signing autographs as the character. My bet is that she probably thought she couldn't be replaced in this role and they had to give her what she wanted and they just got fed up with negotiations. If they pulled Jennifer Hale in, which we assume cost more, I have to believe they also offered Taylor more and she refused the offer.

She's been out of work for 8 years and my guess is she was trying to get 8 years' worth of pay for a week's worth of work.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
Except the actor who helped create the value of the franchise didn’t feel that way, and other VAs have said 4k is a ridiculous sum. I think professional voice actors have more insight into this than you do.

So, it’s probably somewhere in between those two sums, and much closer to 100k than 4k. People are acting like she’s not at all responsible for the previous success of the franchise to justify the studio lowballing her.
Because she isn't. She is voicing a character in a Platinum game. Nobody purchases a Platinum game for its incredible storytelling or for its incredible vocal performances. It's an action game and both its setting and its storytelling are only there to set the stage for the real reason people play this game: The gameplay. She got offered 4k for what is at best a 16 hour effort for a very niche action combat focused franchise. Suggesting that her influence is so big that she deserves close to 100k is downright ridiculous. Without exaggeration, her vocal performance is near the very bottom of the list of things that make Bayonetta games fun or appealing.
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
Because she isn't. She is voicing a character in a Platinum game. Nobody purchases a Platinum game for its incredible storytelling or for its incredible vocal performances. It's an action game and both its setting and its storytelling are only there to set the stage for the real reason people play this game: The gameplay.
Complete bullshit. You’re not wrong that gameplay takes precedence (I feel that way as a gamer), but to totally dismiss all of the design that goes into characters, the humor of over the top and intentional sex appeal? That’s just ridiculous.

Gameplay is my number one focus, but Bayonetta is cool because of so many other factors as well, and she has a right to say she was a part of that, because she was.

She got offered 4k for what is at best a 16 hour effort for a very niche action combat focused franchise. Suggesting that her influence is so big that she deserves close to 100k is downright ridiculous. Without exaggeration, her vocal performance is near the very bottom of the list of things that make Bayonetta games fun or appealing.
The argument keeps coming back to how long it would’ve taken.

1: nobody actually knows how many sessions it would’ve taken, nobody knows how many lines of dialogue there were

2: professionals get paid A LOT per hour. If you’re mad about that, you probably should get some skills that deserve similar rates
 

SF Kosmo

Banned
Yeah, 4,000 dollars for a couple days of work is absolutely criminal... you're right...

You aren't just paying for time, you're paying for what someone brings to the role.

They cast Jennifer Hale who is a fine actress but who absolutely sucks in this based on the trailer, who can't even do a convincing British accent. Helena Taylor defined this role in the territories where these games are most popular. Her value is apparent, and they really do seem to have done her dirty.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
Complete bullshit. You’re not wrong that gameplay takes precedence (I feel that way as a gamer), but to totally dismiss all of the design that goes into characters, the humor of over the top and intentional sex appeal? That’s just ridiculous.
The character wasn't designed nor written by her. The ONLY thing she's provided is the voice. That's it. The fact of the matter is that the performance could have been very bad and it would have had minimal effect on sales or enjoyment of the game. Her voice acting is simply the least important part of a game like this.
Gameplay is my number one focus, but Bayonetta is cool because of so many other factors as well, and she has a right to say she was a part of that, because she was.
Yeah she was a part of that, but that doesn't mean you're suddenly entitled anywhere near 100k for a 16 hour performance on a franchise that has always had low sales and is incredibly niche. This is not a comment on her performance itself, simply that it doesn't contribute vastly to sales in a game like this.
The argument keeps coming back to how long it would’ve taken.

1: nobody actually knows how many sessions it would’ve taken, nobody knows how many lines of dialogue there were
While you're right in that we don't know exactly how long it takes, the fact that she revealed how much work it was for B1 and the going rate for union rates gives us a decent estimation. It's probably less than B1, considering that there's a new main character.
2: professionals get paid A LOT per hour. If you’re mad about that, you probably should get some skills that deserve similar rates
I agree, they do get paid a lot per hour. I think 250 USD per hour is a lot of money. I think you were the one who has an issue with the salary though, not Me.
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
I agree, they do get paid a lot per hour. I think 250 USD per hour is a lot of money. I think you were the one who has an issue with the salary though, not Me.
I don’t fully agree or disagree with the rest of your post, but the reason people get to charge that much is because of their ability and overhead. I actually bill for more than that and I work for a company that pays me a salary and provides an office and benefits and such. If you’re a freelancer, if you work PRN for healthcare, if you’re on contracts, then it’s understood that rate goes up quite a bit.

A friend of mine had 600k in revenue doing the same job I did last year as a consultant. We netted about the same because she has so much more of that stuff to pay for than I do. If I went into independent work, I would know I’d need to bill for way more than I do now for my company. It sounds to me like VA work is expensive for these same reasons, but people don’t want to accept that for “oh it’s only a few hours of work.”

Well then I guess find someone else to do it and the pros will need to lower their rates in response.
 

SF Kosmo

Banned
Because this is a commercial product. If a performance doesn't move sales, then it's not worth investing a lot of money into that aspect of your game.
The Bayonetta games are more popular in the West than in Japan. In a character driven game like this it can be hard to quantify how much of that is owed to the performance, but I'd reckon even the most conservative estimate would put that number higher than $4000.

This isn't a day rate on an anime dub, this is a character than Helena Taylor really defined.
 
So now it's come out that her schedule was completely open to voice act for the role and she was only offered $4000 which is beyond insulting. I think she has every right to be furious.

I hate when videogame companies pull crap like this as the lack of her voice will stick out like a sore thumb and hurt the game.
Why is 4K for a couple days work insulting? That’s more than most software engineers get who develop the game.

No one gives a shit who the voice actor.
 
Why am I saying that I think she has mental illness:

  • She cites contemplating suicide
  • She is posting a number of videos via twitter (not just 1)
  • She is breaking an NDA potentially placing her in legal jeopardy
  • She hasn't worked in 8 years and this isn't going to help her get work or money
  • Her ask that the game be boycotted is delusional and grandiose
  • Her quoting of the bible and applying it to her situation of being paid 4K dollars for a few working sessions is certainly worrisome

She seems disassociated from reality. That may be the default for many of you, but for us that live in the real world on a daily basis, that is a sign of mental illness.
This is the fourth video in question:
the Bible parable is specifically about valuing earthly riches that crumble to dust upon our deaths and carry no value unto the afterlife. She is targeting the message to "the fat cats" that are "Kamiya" and "Presidents of Nintendo". This in context of being offered an "insulting" pay of 4k for, in the past, was done within I think 4 days or 4 shifts/sessions or something. She mentioned this in a podcast. We don't know how much lines are in the game, the game's story or dialogue, or how much she was paid for the first two games (I'm sure it wasn't a flattering 100k). I'd like to know if 4k is a pay increase or not versus the previous two. Also, this is a Japanese game. Anime and VO's for Japanese game's have not been getting paid much for years, due to limited appeal to a niche audience. Radio and advertisements are a different sector. She seems to be under this impression (probably from the internet bolstering Bayonetta's image up) she's working with a video game icon on par with at least Lara Croft/Tomb Raider, but that is not the case.

She broke NDA to make her grievance known, which is a MASSIVE red flag for other potential clients to ever hire her. Hurt her feelings enough, and she will break agreements she signed. And like you've implied, why is the voice of Bayonetta not more prolific in the VA scene? Has she just not been auditioning for roles? Is she trying to find work? Why bank so much on this one character? I mean, this is a series that was lucky to even have a second game that BOMBED on Wii U (38k debut in Japan, and less than 300k WW in 2014). The fact that Nintendo is funding a third game is amazing in it's own right (there's enough interest at the top of Nintendo and Platinum to give the series another try and see if they can pull off a Fire Emblem Awakening. Xenoblade wasn't a million selling franchise at first either).

I hate that she decided to go this route. the Bible is an amazing book, and I'm surprised that she doesn't see herself in this conflict of asking for more money here. Jennifer Hale has had hundreds of roles over her career, small and big, from full novels to mere grunts. You can't just sell yourself as Bayonetta and think you have power to negotiate high. It's not going to work (and didn't). Jennifer Hale has made many connections over her years, which is important in any biz. Hellena is burning her's with the call for a boycott of a product she signed an NDA for. The best she can hope for now is a sympathetic hire from a liberal company looking to be a hero and grant her the justice she deserves and win the twitter crowds whopping approval and likes.

She seems like a pretty decent lady, so it's unfortunate her emotions won the day here. I hope she recovers from this episode she has put herself in.

That's kind of what is happening here as well: It doesn't really matter how good you are at voice acting, Bayonetta is still a "trashy" action game and your performance has no influence on sales. You can call it pearls for swines but that doesn't change anything.

What does being "Iconic" mean though? Bayonetta 1 sold 2 million copies across like 5 or 6 different platforms. Bayonetta 2 sold like 1.2m copies. This isn't some major selling franchise.

Oh the people who like Bayonetta games really like them. And that makes sense: These games are really, really good. Is 4K the best they can do? No, probably not but that is how much they are willing to spend on it. It also depends on who's paying the bill: Platinum isn't a successful, rich developer with a lot of funds and Nintendo is the publisher, but I can't think of a publisher that cares less about voice acting than Nintendo.
For some context on the bold, here are Nintendo Million selling figures that was last updated in June of 2021: nintendo-software-and-hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.963700

Bayonetta 1 and 2 are not on here (but Astral Chain is). These games crossed that barrier you mentioned in more recent times purely through digital streams, discounts, ports, and word of mouth over a very long period of time (several years). For Bayo 1, of course, PS3 and 360 add to that one's total that, on their own, didn't satisfy Sega at the time. The ground work for this third entry to succeed is there, as the Switch is a hit, Bayonetta is in Smash Bros, the previous two titles have accumulated more interest over time, and YouTube, twitter, and the like are far more influential than they have ever been in 2014.
 
So should all voice actors get 100k no matter what they do or how they perform?

It was in this thread that they get paid per hour or per word.

Niko probably has 100s of hours of voice acting work and 1000s of words.

Meanwhile the topic of this thread had something like 4 days of work.

Source for four days of work? I agree that not every voice actor needs to be paid 100 K and it should vary depending on their time.
 

Reallink

Member
If they could do the 100k job for a few hours then they would.

I don’t understand the selective market dictates the price principles some have. I get paid a lot more than a ditch digger for the same amount of time. Duh, my knowledge and experience provide more value than someone with a stronger back.

If this chick’s time wasn’t worth it for the company, fine. Don’t tell her she gets the toilet scrubber rate and don’t get mad if she lets people know it

The very premise of the thread you're posting in dismantles the arguments you're trying to make. If this woman was so "professional, experienced, knowledgeable, and uniquely talented", they wouldn't have been able to replace her with an afternoon phone call. Reality is VA is an easy gig with nearly no barrier of entry and there are literally 1000's of professional, semi-professional, and amateur VA's who would have gladly done the job for significantly less than her "insulting" $250/hour offer. Many dozens if not hundreds of them could have done a good enough job that no one would even have noticed or cared she was replaced without this Twitter thread. That's just the reality of the market. 99.9% of Bayonetta players couldn't give 2 shits what the character sounds like after a 9 year hiatus, they don't even remember.
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
The very premise of the thread you're posting in dismantles the arguments you're trying to make. If this woman was so "professional, experienced, knowledgeable, and uniquely talented", they wouldn't have been able to replace her with an afternoon phone call.
lmao…they replaced her with one of the most prolific voice actresses of all time who probably charged them more than this chick wanted.
 

Reallink

Member
lmao…they replaced her with one of the most prolific voice actresses of all time who probably charged them more than this chick wanted.

Nope, they told her we have X-lines of dialogue and Y-hours of projected booth time and we'll pay you the union rate, and she said yes please. What kind of sense would it make to pay "the most prolific actress off all time" your proposed $100,000+ fair market offer when they could have just paid the original woman and avoided all this nonsense. None.
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
Nope, they told her we have X-lines of dialogue and Y-hours of projected booth time and we'll pay you the union rate, and she said yes please. What kind of sense would it make to pay "the most prolific actress off all time" your proposed $100,000+ fair market offer when they could have just paid the original woman and avoided all this nonsense. None.
Well you’re now you’re just putting words in my mouth because I never proposed $100,000+ was fair market value
 

Nico_D

Member
Watching photos of her years back and now in that video, I think it's pretty obvious what has happened. One of two things. But without proof that's just speculation.
 

MayauMiao

Member
I totally don't care much about the change of voice actress for a game.

It happened with Lara Croft and nobody seem to have issues with it.

 

nush

Member
The ground work for this third entry to succeed is there, as the Switch is a hit, Bayonetta is in Smash Bros, the previous two titles have accumulated more interest over time, and YouTube, twitter, and the like are far more influential than they have ever been in 2014.
"I will count to 3.. There will not be a 4..."

 
she did a great job and got laid off, let go, fired etc and i don't give a damn lol . it happens to thousands of people every day. fair or unfair. time to move on and stop crying, playing the victim. and i don't give sympathy just because she's a woman on the internet.
 
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