Support NeoGAF

[GigaBowser]

They can't let go of the engine because as faulted as it is, it's still uniquely brilliant in other ways. The interaction you have with the many NPC's running around their worlds really set their games apart and give off a living, breathing feeling (basically everything the comparatively dead and lifeless Cyberpunk is not, as most of the NPC's blank from existence the moment you turn the other way). The same goes for loot around the world. These games truly remember everything and give you choices which really set them apart, but on the other hand the engine is also fundamentally flawed, and the games are often loaded with bugs and jank.

So what do they do? They keep building more layers on top of this fundamentally flawed foundation.

The games don't usually "show" very well and take an incredible amount of time to fine tune and polish, but if I'm being honest they are still some of the funnest and deepest rpg's out there.

I'm looking forward to the next generation of Creation Engine games, for better and worse. Gaming would truly not be the same with Bethesda and their quirky, flawed, yet incredibly fun and immersive games.

 

[March Climber]

I know people hate the game but Fallout 76 was a necessary evil for them to do as much as they could to fix it's issues.

 

[lh032]

But lets be honest, Bethesda is the only developer that able to make big AAA RPG games like this so far
They have no competitor as todate.

 

[Craig of War]

Is not the best looking engine but in terms of Open World RPG you need the Creation Engine

 

[Sosokrates]

Great thread idea, this is something (myself included) that does not occur to people. Having the best visuals is not worth it if the gameplay or world realism is broke. While cyberpunk is a good game, I would prefer a little worse visuals if it meant more realism in world + NPC interaction.

 

[Punished Miku]

Im just happy it has 3rd person. I've given up on them ever fixing all the jank. They need good writing and deeper rpg elements to make up for the lack of smooth action.

 

[Horatius]

i think the fact that no one in the world has even attempted to make a competent skyrim ripoff to this day proves it's the engine that's the reason. i can't think of many other examples of a game being so incredibly popular and lucrative over so long a time period that didn't create a mass of copy-cats oversaturating the market. even dark souls, which has few true imitators (lots of souls-likes but fewer that actually play like dark souls, usually just the progression/death system applied to like a 2d game or something), still has multiple times more than skyrim.

the outer worlds is basically the only other game in the genre, and that was a pale imitation in terms of the actual interactivity of the world, how immersive it was, how it dealt with objects, etc.

it turns out that treating every individual element in such a massive game as an independent object that's perfectly visible and manipulatable is very hard, and the only reason bethesda can do it is that they've built on top of their existing scaffolding over the years. redoing it from scratch would be a nightmare.

 

[Shmunter]

There's more than enough CPU and Ram this gen to run a comprehensive database with whatever rendering engine.

Looking at the jaggy's and abysmal framerate on the trailer something needs to be done. I think it's yet to be optimised tho, no way they can release a 20/30 fps game on Series X

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Wrong. They 'can't let it go' cuz making a new engine is a hell. And making a new game and a new engine at the same time is a recipe for disaster.

 

[DerivedDataCache]

How do you know. Have ya ever used the creation engine?

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Has anyone stated that the game won't have a 60 FPS mode?

It looked really bad in that respect on stream.

 

[OsirisBlack]

I’d agree with you, even the new trailer has some of their engines usual suspects. While their character models do look better they all have bad hair and dead eyes. That’s just visual as far as performance I expect a billion bugs day one but to be fair they are usually entertaining sometimes hilariously so. Remember fallout 4? Either way I’m in for day 1.

 

[LaughingStock]

It's a great engine for the games they make. And there's a huge community of modders used to work with it.

 

[Stuart360]

Sometimes you have to take what the devs are saying, even if its by Todd. I'm sure we would of all loved to see this game in UE5 (although that wouldnt be possible really, unless we wanted to wait another 5 years) but if Todd is saying they know theeir engine enough so that it lets them create what they want to create, then i'd rather have the game they want to make with good solid graphics, over possibly a lesser game with better graphics.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

"over possibly a lesser game with better graphics"

We are not talking about performance right?

 

[Warablo]

Hopefully Stalker 2 can live up to some of it.

I agree their engines have all these physics lying loot around plus NPC's doing daily routines in a open world. It's hard to make a competing game from scratch.

 

[Stuart360]

We are not talking about performance right?

Well at least wait for the game to release first then. Remember that first Rei Village trailer with the 20fps framerate that got everyone panicking?, well the finished game was 60fps.
Honestly its for this reason why we get so much cgi in these shows, compared to early gameplay. Hell some devs have even said that themselves. There is just too much money involved in making these games these days that many studios cant afford a bad first impression.

 

[In Cold Blood]

There's more than enough CPU and Ram this gen to run a comprehensive database with whatever rendering engine.

Looking at the jaggy's and abysmal framerate on the trailer something needs to be done. I think it's yet to be optimised tho, no way they can release a 20/30 fps game on Series X

Todd has said the game is in the polishing stage. So they have 12 months to optimise the game for console. That's plenty of time with the amount of staff Bethesda has.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Well at least wait for the game to release first then. Remember that first Rei Village trailer with the 20fps framerate that got everyone panicking?, well the finished game was 60fps.

Honestly its for this reason why we get so much cgi in these shows, compared to early gameplay. Hell some devs have even said that themselves.

Using CGI is just and excuses for bad planing.

In engine footage is passable but not that great either.

There is just too much money involved in making these games these days that many studios cant afford a bad first impression.

Specially AAA.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

Game engine is not a static program - it's always evolving. There are people that working on it.
I mean whatever happened to the engine is not an engine problem - it looks like company decision or something like that. Hope that engine recive a big upgrade like all other engines.

 

[ZehDon]

Given that there's no one else able to make games of this scale and complexity, there's a method to their madness. The only game that's come close is Cyberpunk 2077, and it was so hard to build that the developer abandoned their own purpose-built RPG engine after they were done to move over to Unreal Engine.

This isn't Halo Infinite, where there's literally dozens and dozens of other games that are better at doing what it does in every quantifiable way and it's clear their technology is well past its used by date and they need to move on. In my opinion, until someone matches their output, they should just keep doing whatever works for them.

 

[64bitmodels]

They can't let go of the engine because as faulted as it is, it's still uniquely brilliant in other ways. The interaction you have with the many NPC's running around their worlds really set their games apart and give off a living, breathing feeling (basically everything the comparatively dead and lifeless Cyberpunk is not, as most of the NPC's blank from existence the moment you turn the other way). The same goes for loot around the world. These games truly remember everything and give you choices which really set them apart, but on the other hand the engine is also fundamentally flawed, and the games are often loaded with bugs and jank.

So what do they do? They keep building more layers on top of this fundamentally flawed foundation.

The games don't usually "show" very well and take an incredible amount of time to fine tune and polish, but if I'm being honest they are still some of the funnest and deepest rpg's out there.

I'm looking forward to the next generation of Creation Engine games, for better and worse. Gaming would truly not be the same with Bethesda and their quirky, flawed, yet incredibly fun and immersive games.

Ehh, Rockstar's RAGE engine with Euphoria does the same thing better since the animations are vastly improved and are far more realistic. Then again, you can't talk to every NPC in a GTA game so each has their strengths and weaknesses

 

[SenjutsuSage]

They got creation engine looking pretty fucking fabulous if I do say so myself. Watch it on an LG C1/CX or any OLED and tell me I'm wrong about how insanely good this game looks. It's a massive leap over any game they've ever made. Todd wasn't bullshitting this time. This literally is a jump as big or bigger than the one when they first moved to Oblivion.

It looks next gen as fuck. It literally looks up there with Cyberpunk 2077 if not better due to the massive diversity of it all. It literally looks that damn good, and this is a Bethesda RPG we are talking about.

I pray it looks this good when it hits Series X come launch day.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Todd has said the game is in the polishing stage. So they have 12 months to optimise the game for console. That's plenty of time with the amount of staff Bethesda has.

Plenty of time with the amount of staff Bethesda and Microsoft have. Don't forget they're part of Xbox and Microsoft now. We know full well Microsoft will send every person they need to send down there from their Advanced Technology Group to get this thing looking and running as nice as humanely possible.

 

[bender]

Object persistence is part of the DNA of Bethesda games.

 

[Soodanim]

Just calling it Creation Engine makes people believe they've been using the same thing since Morrowind, when really it's been improved upon substantially since then. The various iterations might not make the best looking games out there, but they do things other engines could never do (including supporting mods with openness that keeps communities not just going but accelerating over a decade later).

The bugs are always plentiful, but the only way to get rid of them is to take away what makes these games what they are.

 

[The Eradicator]

Great thread idea, this is something (myself included) that does not occur to people. Having the best visuals is not worth it if the gameplay or world realism is broke. While cyberpunk is a good game, I would prefer a little worse visuals if it meant more realism in world + NPC interaction.

But, um, Bethesda games are also well known for having some of the worst combat and movement gameplay. Fallout, as an FPS, has always been well behind the industry in terms of gameplay. Elder Scrolls? I think we all know about that melee combat...
At a certain point, Bethesda needs to address the problems inherent in using this engine, but Todd just keeps acting like every new game they launch is some major leap forward.

 

[The Eradicator]

Todd has said the game is in the polishing stage. So they have 12 months to optimise the game for console. That's plenty of time with the amount of staff Bethesda has.

And we all know this... Todd Howard would NEVER misrepresent anything during an E3 presentation.

 

[FutureMD]

These games truly remember everything and give you choices which really set them apart

How so? At least in skyrim, as far as I know, after you complete the game the npcs don't really treat you with much respect usually. And what makes this something that let's say, unreal engine 5, can't do with some tweaking?

 

[Filben]

As long as I don't see any loading screens anymore when I enter a city, building or settlement, I'm happy. It's soooo immersion breaking I hated it to the guts, and the fact that other open world rpgs games that are 20 years old (and also offered daily routines for NPCs) didn't have that and Bethesda STILL used that in F4 and F76 is kind of foreboding.

I hope for the best.

 

[ZehDon]

Just calling it Creation Engine makes people believe they've been using the same thing since Morrowind...

Just to clarify, it was called GameBryo back then. They forked GameByro after Fallout 3 and created the Creation Engine for Skyrim - the jump from Oblivion to Skyrim most readily shows the improvements they've made. For Fallout 4, they expanded the Creation Engine enormously, with things like proper volumetric effects and PBR. I'm not privy to the improvements made to it for Starfield, but I guess we'll seen soon enough.

 

[Soodanim]

Just to clarify, it was called GameBryo back then. They forked GameByro after Fallout 3 and created the Creation Engine for Skyrim - the jump from Oblivion to Skyrim most readily shows the improvements they've made. For Fallout 4, they expanded the Creation Engine enormously, with things like proper volumetric effects and PBR. I'm not privy to the improvements made to it for Starfield, but I guess we'll seen soon enough.

Replace Morrowind with Skyrim and you still have people who think new games will be dropped in that version of the engine

 

[JerryinSoCal]

I know people hate the game but Fallout 76 was a necessary evil for them to do as much as they could to fix it's issues.

When they first showed that game they talked about how much work they had done on the engine for it then the game still looked like crap.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

If I drop a fork in the middle of nowhere it better be there 200 hours later. Otherwise it’s not a Bethesda game.

 

[March Climber]

When they first showed that game they talked about how much work they had done on the engine for it then the game still looked like crap.

Exactly, and I'm glad they kept working on the game and engine to try and iron out as much as possible.

 

[killatopak]

Just pretty fucking sad it took them so long and have little to show in terms of graphical improvements. It's not the leap in graphics I thought it would have. Even NV to FO4 has a better leap. I hope it shows in complexity of the game though I'm pretty sure complexity means more bugs no matter what engine you use.

 

[Sosokrates]

But, um, Bethesda games are also well known for having some of the worst combat and movement gameplay. Fallout, as an FPS, has always been well behind the industry in terms of gameplay. Elder Scrolls? I think we all know about that melee combat...
At a certain point, Bethesda needs to address the problems inherent in using this engine, but Todd just keeps acting like every new game they launch is some major leap forward.

Just because some elements of Bethesda games are not the best does not some how make the point in the OP void. Every engine could be better, but at the end of day good devs choose the tech which enables them to make the type of games they want to make. Choosing incorrectly can break a game.

 

[Shmunter]

Just because some elements of Bethesda games are not the best does not some how make the point in the OP void. Every engine could be better, but at the end of day good devs choose the tech which enables them to make the type of games they want to make. Choosing incorrectly can break a game.

Legacy tech can also be the very shackles holding a vision back.

It's surprising the lack of investment to be honest with such an obvious technical debt. Lets fondly remember the UE5 fan made vertical slice.

AAA money could have implemented UE5 and plug in whatever RPG elements are needed.

 

[GymWolf]

Rdr2 or watch dogs 2 have a lot of interaction between npcs or npcs and protagonist and they don't have to use this crappy engine.

The game remembering if i leave a fork in a dungeon is not a good enough trade off, it becomes a novelty after a while.

 

[Sosokrates]

Legacy tech can also be the very shackles holding a vision back.

It's surprising the lack of investment to be honest with such an obvious technical debt.

Yes, the tech debt present in starfield is evident, the skin shaders and outdoor lighting are the most obvious ones to me.

However theres obviously reasons for why Bethesda has not changed engine, it could be they wanted to start work on Starfield with tech they were familiar with. Development of Starfield started way before the ms acquisition, so changing engine may have not been feasible.

Also look at star citizen, that uses some cry engine derivative and that has and has had its fair share of technical issues.

There are a few other examples of engines causing issues, amy hennigs star wars "rag tag" project was a mess because frosbite was not designed for a 3rd person uncharted like game.
In days gone they had to a whole motorbike system because UE4 did not support the correct motorbike at the time.

 

[The Eradicator]

Just because some elements of Bethesda games are not the best does not some how make the point in the OP void. Every engine could be better, but at the end of day good devs choose the tech which enables them to make the type of games they want to make. Choosing incorrectly can break a game.

And yet, Bethesda has a track record with this engine, going back over a decade, that proves without a doubt that the developers at that studio cannot launch a game using the Creation Engine that runs properly, without an insane amount of bugs, and that doesn't require literal years of modding by the community. Every time BGS launches a game, I see these same nonsensical defenses of their engine, and every damn time, they launch a ridiculously broken game.

 

[The_Mike]

There's more than enough CPU and Ram this gen to run a comprehensive database with whatever rendering engine.

Looking at the jaggy's and abysmal framerate on the trailer something needs to be done. I think it's yet to be optimised tho, no way they can release a 20/30 fps game on Series X

You can't brute force something if the engine is not capable of using your hardware optimally, like using all your cpus core etc

 

[GigaBowser]

Rdr2 or watch dogs 2 have a lot of interaction between npcs or npcs and protagonist and they don't have to use this crappy engine.

The game remembering if i leave a fork in a dungeon is not a good enough trade off, it becomes a novelty after a while.

The NPC interactions in those games are still not as dynamic. They react to you and some are even on schedules but you can't really interact with them beyond a superficial level and randomly decide to jump on a quest with a bunch of them. Nobody is better than Bethesda at a persistent, living world.

 

[GymWolf]

The NPC interactions in those games are still not as dynamic. They react to you and some are even on schedules but you can't really interact with them beyond a superficial level and randomly decide to jump on a quest with a bunch of them. Nobody is better than Bethesda at a persistent, living world.

Have you ever played a piranha byte game?

 

[Skifi28]

Object persistence is part of the DNA of Bethesda games.

And let's not forget about bug persistence.

 

[Godot25]

I mean, Unreal Engine 5 was praised for something that Creation Engine had eons ago, so it is clear that BGS knows why they are sticking with it.

 

[Laptop1991]

The upside to the creation engine is the modders know it inside out and they will be needed and wanted at some point

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Fallout 3 - Full of bugs and crashes
Fallout vegas - Full of bugs and crashes
Fallout 4 - Full of bugs and crashes
Skyrim - Full of bugs and crashes
Fallout 76 - Just a bit shitty really

I want to buy it day 1, but this time i'll wait. It looks nice but so did Fallout 4 until I reached 25 hours in and couldnt visit the east side of the map due to lock ups on every save (Which pissed me right off)

Heres hoping 'this' ones better at least.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Making games of this scale and complexity with a relatively small AAA team comes at a price, namely jank and mediocre graphics. But people are willing to pay that price for the immersion the games provide.

 

[cormack12]

Engines change and evolve over time. I think the visuals were actually decent for Starfield, even if performance was shaky. Animations has always been my biggest personal issue with Bethesda games. What's weird is I think TES is much worse (Skyrim/TES:O) than Fallout (4/76) with regards to this. Can you make a 'pretty' game in the engine? Not sure I can commit either way, they are very stylised. I would expect TES to look better as a fantastical setting, but Appalachia in FO76 is actually quite well done and dare I say it, quite a looker in some area's (but animations are still generally grim).