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Black Widow in the MCU is a Mary Sue

Is Black Widow a Mary Sue?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 16.9%

  • No

    Votes: 26 36.6%

  • Unsure

    Votes: 3 4.2%

  • Are you drunk?

    Votes: 30 42.3%
  • Total voters
    71
DeafTourette

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Ok, hear me out.

When she first shows up in Iron Man 2, she is instantly liked. She's good at everything she does, including fighting stronger aliens. She never fails... Like ever. When's the last time she lost a fight? And her getting knocked down by Winter Soldier isn't losing a fight. She wasn't trying to beat him up.

She fits every criteria for a Mary Sue.

Prove me wrong.
 
Richard Packer

Richard Packer

Member
DeafTourette said:
Ok, hear me out.

When she first shows up in Iron Man 2, she is instantly liked. She's good at everything she does, including fighting stronger aliens. She never fails... Like ever. When's the last time she lost a fight? And her getting knocked down by Winter Soldier isn't losing a fight. She wasn't trying to beat him up.

She fits every criteria for a Mary Sue.

Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

Her name is Scarlett Johansson, not Mary Sue.
 
INC

INC

Member
DeafTourette said:
Ok, hear me out.

When she first shows up in Iron Man 2, she is instantly liked. She's good at everything she does, including fighting stronger aliens. She never fails... Like ever. When's the last time she lost a fight? And her getting knocked down by Winter Soldier isn't losing a fight. She wasn't trying to beat him up.

She fits every criteria for a Mary Sue.

Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

She looks great in tight clothing

This nullifies all arguments
 
Hulk_Smash

Hulk_Smash

Banned
kretos said:
doesn't matter she's dead
Click to expand...
I voted yes, but you do make a good point. A Mary Sue can’t die.

I think she started off as a Mary Sue but eventually became a lot more balanced.

1. She is visibly afraid of Banner when he transforms into the Hulk in Avengers and she runs from the confrontation.

2. She does get taken down by WS, no I will not ignore that. She survives the encounter but her only contribution to that fight is not getting killed.

3. She is completely outmatched against Crossbones and his goons in Civl War and she knows it.

4. She doesn’t even really participate in the airport fight due to the massive power inbalance she has working against her.

5. She died in Infinity War.

She does start off MS-like and there are big gaping inconsistencies in her power levels, but Captain Marvel she is not.
 
Last edited:
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
She was killed in endgame and not even give a funeral or anything close to the likes of Iron Man. So, if she’s a Mary Sue, she’s a pretty bad one
 
teezzy

teezzy

Banned
What's a Mary Sue again?

Is this some sort of incel thing? How's your jawline OP? Is it high def 1080p?
 
teezzy

teezzy

Banned
ManaByte said:
It's what most performance outrage YouTubers call any popular female character. It must work well with the YouTube algorithm as it's in all of their video titles, descriptions, and thumbnails.
Click to expand...

I hear it used a lot online. Mostly about Daisy Ridley. I'm not entirely sure what it means, but this seems to be the case
 
LegendOfKage

LegendOfKage

Member
ManaByte said:
If she was a Mary Sue she would've survived the fall in Endgame.

YouTube rots your brain.
Click to expand...

Pagusas said:
She was killed in endgame and not even give a funeral or anything close to the likes of Iron Man. So, if she’s a Mary Sue, she’s a pretty bad one
Click to expand...
People continue to misinterpret and massively over-apply this label. In the story by the woman who coined the term, Mary Sue dies at the end. Not ever dying has nothing to do with it.

Black Widow is FAR from a mary sue, though. Through horribly difficult and painful training, she earned every skill she has.
 
Last edited:
O

OneMoreDay

Neo Member
Whether she is or isn't, does it make a difference? As far as I'm concerned, what's problematic about Mary Sues is that they are unbelievable, often boring protagonists to follow. Black Widow is mostly a supporting character in the movies, her journey is seldom (never?) the focus. She's just a cool secret agent lady. It doesn't really matter if she usually comes out on top from the few fights she partakes in (and I'm not even sure she does).
 
Punished Miku

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Not as much as some other MS. She always had that emotional layer beneath the surface where she seems to regret her past and seems conflicted about who she is in Winter Soldier. Hopefully she actually does some evil things in her prequel to help flesh out that dynamic and expand her character.
 
Mihos

Mihos

Gold Member
she was trained as an assassin since she was a child and the only super person she ever beat by herself was a mind controlled hawkeye
 
Y

YCoCg

Member
The character who's a badass but constantly shown as being limited by her just human abilities and even dies?

Do you even know what a Mary Sue is?
 
Razvedka

Razvedka

Banned
I never liked her or Barton's inclusion in The Avengers films. They're baseline humans not augmented by technology, unlike Stark. How are we supposed to think they can keep up with their teammates, let alone take on superhuman enemies?

That's also my issue with Falcon, but to a far lesser extent given the tech he packs. In an age of super soldiers, and the proliferation of such serums (See: Falcon and Winter Soldier) I think marvel should've just dosed him up when they had the chance.
 
Soodanim

Soodanim

Gold Member
Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trekfanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, the characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half-Human Hybridmasquerading as a human, and die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good for This Sinful Earth. (Or space, as the case may be.)
Click to expand...

tvtropes.org

Mary Sue - TV Tropes

Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to …
tvtropes.org tvtropes.org
TVTropes definition for those that don’t know what a Mary Sue is.

BW is not a Mary Sue. Her introduction in IM2 is purposely like that because they’re introducing what later is revealed to be a special, high level Shield agent. Other Shield agents are also good at their jobs, she is just better, because that’s the character. Same as any other Avenger - they’re better than others at what they do. It’s not like she continues to be this amazing master of all trades character, she’s good at being a human agent doing spy things as per the character of a secret agent spy.
 
Azurro

Azurro

Banned
ManaByte said:
It's what most performance outrage YouTubers call any popular female character. It must work well with the YouTube algorithm as it's in all of their video titles, descriptions, and thumbnails.
Click to expand...

Rey is definitely a Mary Sue and she isn't exactly a popular character. No training at anything and everyone falls at her feet.

You just like absolutely everything Hollywood tells you to like.

Black Widow isn't a Mary Sue btw. She is a normal human amongst gods.
 
EverydayBeast

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Black Widow represents a Batman like super hero without super powers, the character was a huge win for Marvel that's it.
like a boss mic drop GIF
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Soodanim said:
tvtropes.org

Mary Sue - TV Tropes

Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to …
tvtropes.org tvtropes.org
TVTropes definition for those that don’t know what a Mary Sue is.

BW is not a Mary Sue. Her introduction in IM2 is purposely like that because they’re introducing what later is revealed to be a special, high level Shield agent. Other Shield agents are also good at their jobs, she is just better, because that’s the character. Same as any other Avenger - they’re better than others at what they do. It’s not like she continues to be this amazing master of all trades character, she’s good at being a human agent doing spy things as per the character of a secret agent spy.
Click to expand...

So why is Captain Marvel considered a Mary sue? She is a highly trained fighter pilot and a highly trained Kree agent.
 
ZehDon

ZehDon

Gold Member
Virtually everything in the OP applies to the title character of any given Marvel movie... because they're super hero movies about "exceptional individuals". So, the OP either doesn't understand what a Mary Sue is, or, hasn't watched the MCU films.

Terrible thread.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Captain Marvel literally had an un-earned, un-hyped Super Saiyan moment in two movies that reminded me of this:

4461dfe359b0d1057073c49b46d7bab6cadb151a_hq.gif



Black Widow did her best but she had multiple moments of being clearly outmatched by people like The Hulk, Thanos, Winter Soldier, and Crossbones which caused her to either suffer injuries or flee from the fight.

I'm not going to count Ultron because he was a goofball with an inconsistent power level, who needs a second movie to redeem his character.
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
I'm actually worried ops account has been hacked. He doesn't generally care or talk about Mary sues etc.
 
Soodanim

Soodanim

Gold Member
sol_bad said:
So why is Captain Marvel considered a Mary sue? She is a highly trained fighter pilot and a highly trained Kree agent.
Click to expand...
I didn’t mind CM, because it’s Marvel and that means a universe full of super powered people doing classic good vs evil stuff and I expect no more than a comic book acted out, so I’m having to answer this as someone who hasn’t made that claim. I also need to assume that they are right, because this thread has shown that people don’t necessarily understand the term.

In the context of the MCU, you have many movies over 3 phases where they’ve developed all of these characters and built up to Thanos. Then at the end of Infinity War, they throw in “A new player joins the battle” and throw a quick origin movie to give us the ~strongest character yet but without any of the character building that any of the others have. She doesn’t even know anyone that isn’t Nick Fury, and he’s not around until the ending of End Game.

I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue, I think she’s more of a Deus Ex Machina. She doesn’t hang around long enough to fulfil the “Loved by everybody” aspect that is so common to a Mary Sue. In End Game she saves the day then disappears both times, with the closest to a Mary Sue moment being when Thor summons Stormbreaker and she doesn’t flinch.
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Soodanim said:
I didn’t mind CM, because it’s Marvel and that means a universe full of super powered people doing classic good vs evil stuff and I expect no more than a comic book acted out, so I’m having to answer this as someone who hasn’t made that claim. I also need to assume that they are right, because this thread has shown that people don’t necessarily understand the term.

In the context of the MCU, you have many movies over 3 phases where they’ve developed all of these characters and built up to Thanos. Then at the end of Infinity War, they throw in “A new player joins the battle” and throw a quick origin movie to give us the ~strongest character yet but without any of the character building that any of the others have. She doesn’t even know anyone that isn’t Nick Fury, and he’s not around until the ending of End Game.

I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue, I think she’s more of a Deus Ex Machina. She doesn’t hang around long enough to fulfil the “Loved by everybody” aspect that is so common to a Mary Sue. In End Game she saves the day then disappears both times, with the closest to a Mary Sue moment being when Thor summons Stormbreaker and she doesn’t flinch.
Click to expand...

I really like this answer, probably because we are on the same page.

There are definitely people in this thread who are saying Natasha isn't a Mary Sue but consider Carol one, for sure.
^__^
 
N

NahaNago

Member
so a woman raised to be a skilled assassin since probably childhood is a marysue. Is also beautiful so men will probably like her or at least hear her out. She could probably easily assassinate half the avengers with ease because of training. I really wish we got to see the darker side/past of black widow. I have no idea what her actual name is outside of black widow and scarlett johanson. She and captain america have plot armor. So they can't die until when necessary.

Are you drunk?
 
Last edited:
Trogdor1123

Trogdor1123

Gold Member
No, are you drunk?

She spent her entire life training to be what she is. Did you not see end game where she was essentially falling apart mentally?

She doesn't fit the criteria at all.
 
UnravelKatharsis

UnravelKatharsis

Gold Member
Without the definition of Mary sue in front of me, I voted no. She starts off in the MCU having already learned all of her skills prior to the movie she is introduced in. She doesn't just "become" skilled or powerful in a way she had no knowledge of instantly. She was before we met her.

Captain marvel/Rey start off without their power/skills and are just able to use them adeptly with no training or even knowledge of what their power is or how it works.

Remember man of steel as superman tests his limits and learns to fly. Contrast that with captain marvel just being like hmmm....I think I can fly now. So I can.

Then there's Rey "I don't even know what a Jedi mind trick is but....I can do it anyway."

Along with plenty of other examples.

Widow doesn't start the movie having no martial arts training then just goes "hey wait a minute, I think I can do karate."
 
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