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BusinessInsider.com: Microsoft's Xbox is beating the PlayStation 5 this holiday season for 3 key reasons

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Markio128

Member
My opinion is that great games are not held back by specs. If people are having fun with the XSS, then good for them, because that’s all that is important. Same for those still having fun with the PS4. I mean, the best selling console with the best selling games is currently the Switch. You can argue over MS’s and Sony’s business plans all you like, but that is the stark truth.
 

STARSBarry

Gold Member
The issue is, its only the XSS that's gets slated on this forum for holding 'this generation back' when in reality, Sony are the ones creating games that are on both the PS4 and PS5. Yet these games, according to them, look the best they have ever seen. So some people are being disingenuous. Either games are truly being held back in which case, Sony games should look terrible.

Even more so, the PS4 (and xbox one) specs were old even at the time they arrived. They are ancient now, the CPU really having a limiting factor when designing games. Yet the XSS doesn't have that limit. It has the same CPU, and the same SSD.

I mean anyone who has played Ratchet and Clank on PS5 will know that's a load of horse shit.

However I do think the fears of game design being limited by the weakest hardware are valid even if currently misplaced, they will have more of an effect later on in the generation as currently games are limited by the previous generation for both consoles, bar very specific examples like R&C.

Games like God of War and Horizon will have been toned down in specific ways to allow for a playable game on older hardware and while I am sure they will still look wonderful, compromises will have been made... and no one on either team blue or green will want to be publicly announcing those until looooooong after the release... maybe a documentary in 15 years time.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
Isn't it funny how there's tons of Playstation gamers complaining about XSS holding the gen back but at the same time mutligeneration games like Horizon, God of War and Gran turismo look like the best ever, according to them.

Also, PC games have been scaling for year across multiple CPUs, GPUs and Ram and storage speeds . At least the Xbox has some of them the same across the board.
this close the topic ))) bravo
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
As a primarily PC player that also happens to own all of the consoles. The fact that PC has scaling and how that impacts on the games I play... actually helps proves the Sony players (and some xbox users too) point.

In that by making an engine scalable across multiple hardware specs results in a less specified engine and therefore weaker graphical fidelity at the higher end. It can also adversally shape how games are designed, for example FF XIV had to drop PS3 because otherwise zones would be heavily limited in the maximum size and Complexity due to the limited RAM amount. The fact is a game has to be designed for the weakest hardware target and scaled up, otherwise you run into problem and is a very real issue for "next gen games".

PC at least has a "minimum" spec that the creators can define, but Xbox right now will always have Xbox Series S as that minumum. Although to be fair right now the minimum spec is actually the Xbox One base console so that's even worse given its HDD.

PS5 is also going to suffer from that issue with most of the big names being forced to release on PS4 as well and therefore being restricted by especially the storage solution of the older hardware...
You summed it up perfectly! You can't get as much juice out of the console (coding to the metal) when you have multiple configurations you have to code for

Going all in on your memory budget then trying to scale down wouldn't be the best idea for a lot of devs
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I mean anyone who has played Ratchet and Clank on PS5 will know that's a load of horse shit.

However I do think the fears of game design being limited by the weakest hardware are valid even if currently misplaced, they will have more of an effect later on in the generation as currently games are limited by the previous generation for both consoles, bar very specific examples like R&C.

Games like God of War and Horizon will have been toned down in specific ways to allow for a playable game on older hardware and while I am sure they will still look wonderful, compromises will have been made... and no one on either team blue or green will want to be publicly announcing those until looooooong after the release... maybe a documentary in 15 years time.
Dj Khaled Yes GIF by VH1
 

Bernardougf

Member
The xboxone and ps4 hold back cross gen games, fact, PC games have limitations in optimization because of multiple GPUs, and sometimes have to be brute forced by high end GPUS, fact, but the xss dont hold back cross skus games , not even a little ? ... coding to the metal is not a thing ? Well... too mutch conflict information this gen .... cant compute.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
The xboxone and ps4 hold back cross gen games, fact, PC games have limitations in optimization because of multiple GPUs, and sometimes have to be brute forced by high end GPUS, fact, but the xss dont hold back cross skus games , not even a little ? ... coding to the metal is not a thing ? Well... too mutch conflict information this gen .... cant compute.
I'll resolve for you
The XSS is oriented to ppl who don't really give a fuck about resolution VRR raytracing 120fps etc etc most who don't know what those terms even mean ..they don't even care about reselling or collecting games (is a no disc console!)....so meanwhile they will push the XSX they will scale back mercilessly the xss if necessary.This means not only in resolution but also and above all in gfx, raytracing and if necessary reducing access to high fps performance modes.....There is also to take into account that also we will soon be able to count on ml upscalers (hopefully) that will allow you to significantly lower the internal rendering resolution. The good thing about this is ...that those (mostl) owners of the xss will not care about playing on a downgraded version of games and xsx will enjoy the premium version of those . Let's remember that Xbox also has Xcloud to rely on
 
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FrankWza

Member
Again Frank, experience relates to the hardware and the feature set that hardware provides. Jason Ronald never said all XSS would use all the features, all the time and you know that. He has no control over actual game content and you've never provided any examples of missing levels, characters, and gameplay elements on the XSS. His statement didn't require further elaboration. You say the site has features listed tell us all which ones the XSS does not have. It should be pretty easy to list them. Just the features the XSS is NOT capable of.

He said the series s would offer the same experience as x at a lower resolution in the video.
He left the features up to the developers. He didn’t say they would be removed.
GotG didn’t remove Ray tracing the x has because they made a decision to focus on a different feature. They removed it, period.
Microsoft’s first party halo studio didn’t remove 120 FPS the x has because they added a different feature. Again, the removed it after attempting to include it. Lots of time, work and effort or an s limitation? Because according to his statement and this article, they were supposed to have the freedom to lower resolution to Include features, not lower resolutions and still have to remove them.


“The way that we designed the developer environment was that a developer would ideally target 4K at 60 fps, up to a 120 fps on Xbox Series X, and then they could easily scale down to the Xbox Series S by reducing the rendering resolution to 1440p,” Ronald said. “But they're not locked into that. So the developer can choose to use the power of the Xbox Series S in the way that they see fit. So in some cases they may choose to render at, say, 1080p, and then use the extra GPU headroom for things like better anti-aliasing or better graphical effects. On the other hand, the developer may choose to go after something like 120 fps, if that's right for the title, and that might result in resolution tradeoffs.”

IGNs translation:

In other words, gamers should expect the same games, whether they’re playing on Series X or Series S, with resolution and graphical quality being the primary differentiation.


 

Poop!

Member
Isn't it funny how there's tons of Playstation gamers complaining about XSS holding the gen back but at the same time mutligeneration games like Horizon, God of War and Gran turismo look like the best ever, according to them.

/thread
 

MonarchJT

Banned
He said the series s would offer the same experience as x at a lower resolution in the video.
He left the features up to the developers. He didn’t say they would be removed.
GotG didn’t remove Ray tracing the x has because they made a decision to focus on a different feature. They removed it, period.
Microsoft’s first party halo studio didn’t remove 120 FPS the x has because they added a different feature. Again, the removed it after attempting to include it. Lots of time, work and effort or an s limitation? Because according to his statement and this article, they were supposed to have the freedom to lower resolution to Include features, not lower resolutions and still have to remove them.


“The way that we designed the developer environment was that a developer would ideally target 4K at 60 fps, up to a 120 fps on Xbox Series X, and then they could easily scale down to the Xbox Series S by reducing the rendering resolution to 1440p,” Ronald said. “But they're not locked into that. So the developer can choose to use the power of the Xbox Series S in the way that they see fit. So in some cases they may choose to render at, say, 1080p, and then use the extra GPU headroom for things like better anti-aliasing or better graphical effects. On the other hand, the developer may choose to go after something like 120 fps, if that's right for the title, and that might result in resolution tradeoffs.”

IGNs translation:

In other words, gamers should expect the same games, whether they’re playing on Series X or Series S, with resolution and graphical quality being the primary differentiation.


ok.you won both Sony and Ms they say nonsense which they do not keep every now and then I think at this point we know very well that we should not trust 100% of what they say no?
 

adamsapple

Member
How do you talk about that quote in context while cutting out everything but half a sentence? That is the reason why I provided the entire quote and not just the part that fit a narrative. The part I bolded is key because that part is so often "conveniently" ignored.

Ok, but what does the bolded part show to us ?

Despite all of the bullet points he said, it didn't stop those games from being cross-generation.

So, his "we believe in generations" still ended up being a bold-faced lie.

In other words, gamers should expect the same games, whether they’re playing on Series X or Series S, with resolution and graphical quality being the primary differentiation.


Isn't .. that was Series S owners are getting exactly Frank ?

They're getting the same games, minus resolution and some graphical effects being removed which don't effect the game ..
 
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Bernardougf

Member
I'll resolve for you
The XSS is oriented to ppl who don't really give a fuck about resolution VRR raytracing 120fps etc etc most who don't know what those terms even mean ..they don't even care about reselling or collecting games (is a no disc console!)....so meanwhile they will push the XSX they will scale back mercilessly the xss if necessary.This means not only in resolution but also and above all in gfx, raytracing and if necessary reducing access to high fps performance modes.....There is also to take into account that also we will soon be able to count on ml upscalers (hopefully) that will allow you to significantly lower the internal rendering resolution. The good thing about this is ...that those (mostl) owners of the xss will not care about playing on a downgraded version of games and xsx will enjoy the premium version of those . Let's remember that Xbox also has Xcloud to rely on
Okay... I aint saying that is no reason to buy a XSS, I never said that, and I aint saying that the game for series S/X wont be awesome ... Im just saying that we have people that for years talked about crossgen games and weak/various cpus holding back games, and how coding to the metal for one single System is optimal and thats why we have exclusives beating multiplats and etc, and now the same people are saying that XSS wont hold back the XsX not even a little... that this wont matter not even a little on the optinization of games ... well ... maybe it really wont... but it is a change in the narrative, thats for sure...
 

MonarchJT

Banned
Okay... I aint saying that is no reason to buy a XSS, I never said that, and I aint saying that the game for series S/X wont be awesome ... Im just saying that we have people that for years talked about crossgen games and weak/various cpus holding back games, and how coding to the metal for one single System is optimal and thats why we have exclusives beating multiplats and etc, and now the same people are saying that XSS wont hold back the XsX not even a little... that this wont matter not even a little on the optinization of games ... well ... maybe it really wont... but it is a change in the narrative, thats for sure...
no not really, for this reason that the CPU in the xss and xsx is the same
 
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adamsapple

Member
Okay... I aint saying that is no reason to buy a XSS, I never said that, and I aint saying that the game for series S/X wont be awesome ... Im just saying that we have people that for years talked about crossgen games and weak/various cpus holding back games, and how coding to the metal for one single System is optimal and thats why we have exclusives beating multiplats and etc, and now the same people are saying that XSS wont hold back the XsX not even a little... that this wont matter not even a little on the optinization of games ... well ... maybe it really wont... but it is a change in the narrative, thats for sure...

It's not a change in narrative to say that a current-gen console won't hold back games in current-gen. Series S has the same CPU as the X minus a. .2 reduction in clock, it's got the RDNA2/Navi equivalent GPU just running at a lower clock/TF count. It's not forcing the developers to develop for a completely different architecture.

The Base Xbox One was the weakest console for a 7~8 year long generation, but it never held back games from realizing their potential otherwise on PS4, Pro or One X.

Not sure why it's gonna do this time when it didn't before ... did the narrative change there ?
 
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FrankWza

Member
ok.you won both Sony and Ms they say nonsense which they do not keep every now and then I think at this point we know very well that we should not trust 100% of what they say no?
I was pointing out how Jim Ryan’s quote gets reduced to 4 words.
They're getting the same games, minus resolution and some graphical effects being removed which don't effect the game ..
You misquoted. It doesn’t say “effects”
It says resolution and graphical quality.
The effects are supposed to be included after resolution is reduced.
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
He said the series s would offer the same experience as x at a lower resolution in the video.
He left the features up to the developers. He didn’t say they would be removed.
GotG didn’t remove Ray tracing the x has because they made a decision to focus on a different feature. They removed it, period.
Microsoft’s first party halo studio didn’t remove 120 FPS the x has because they added a different feature. Again, the removed it after attempting to include it. Lots of time, work and effort or an s limitation? Because according to his statement and this article, they were supposed to have the freedom to lower resolution to Include features, not lower resolutions and still have to remove them.


“The way that we designed the developer environment was that a developer would ideally target 4K at 60 fps, up to a 120 fps on Xbox Series X, and then they could easily scale down to the Xbox Series S by reducing the rendering resolution to 1440p,” Ronald said. “But they're not locked into that. So the developer can choose to use the power of the Xbox Series S in the way that they see fit. So in some cases they may choose to render at, say, 1080p, and then use the extra GPU headroom for things like better anti-aliasing or better graphical effects. On the other hand, the developer may choose to go after something like 120 fps, if that's right for the title, and that might result in resolution tradeoffs.”

IGNs translation:

In other words, gamers should expect the same games, whether they’re playing on Series X or Series S, with resolution and graphical quality being the primary differentiation.



You do get the same game, your save works across both consoles, so they are always going to be gameplay complete.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Ok, but what does the bolded part show to us ?

Despite all of the bullet points he said, it didn't stop those games from being cross-generation.

So, his "we believe in generations" still ended up being a bold-faced lie.

What do you mean "what does the bolded part show to us"? How is this not perfectly clear?

"and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5"

None of that is referring to games being cross-gen or not being cross-gen. Controller. Audio. SSD. That's it.
 

adamsapple

Member
I was pointing out how Jim Ryan’s quote gets reduced to 4 words.

You misquoted. It doesn’t say “effects”
It says resolution and graphical quality.

On the one hand you're talking about reducing Jim Ryan's quote to 4 words, on the other you're nitpicking one word in my post :D

Graphical Quality encompasses graphical effects too, and just like they said, it's up to the developers to reduce graphical quality as they deem fit.

The Series S versions of the games are weaker equivalent versions of Series X games, not versions of last-gen games.

What do you mean "what does the bolded part show to us"? How is this not perfectly clear?

"and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5"

None of that is referring to games being cross-gen or not being cross-gen. Controller. Audio. SSD. That's it.


Cherry picking quotes is fun but you REAAAALLY need to put the final part of the quote in there too:

we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5."


He's talking about all those things in the context of creating new experiences that can only be enjoyed on the PS5.

And 2 months after this, they announced all those games are coming to the PS4 too. So, what he said directly contradicts with how the games are releasing on older hardware too.
 
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Rykan

Member
who buy the xss doesn't care about VRR or raytracing in the same way..,....and pls not again this....you can get the XSs with all gamepass catalog with something like 400 games for 270/300 euro here in Italy .....at the same time you can get the PS5 digital for 399+81 euro for just 1 (ONE) PS5 first party exclusive ..if you get TWO games well we are around 550/560 euro....you don't buy consoles without games
Now you're just moving the goalposts. You claimed that the console was twice as expensive which it clearly isn't. The difference is just 100$/euro and you get vastly better hardware for it.

What the heck does the software price have to do with this when we're comparing hardware and features set? Also, it's not 300 euro for a series S with gamepass. It's 300 Euro + 120 Euro per year for your gamepass subscription which allows you to rent games of which most are temporarily available. That's not me hating on the service btw. I'm subscribed to it myself and I love it, but simply comparing subscription price to full purchases as if there are no downsides to gamepass is disingenious

If you don't care about ray tracing or higher framerates or the same visuals, that's fine, but then don't quote my post when I point out that it is not delivering the same experience.
 

FrankWza

Member
You do get the same game, your save works across both consoles, so they are always going to be gameplay complete.
We’ve come to this.
On the one hand you're talking about reducing Jim Ryan's quote to 4 words, on the other you're nitpicking one word in my post :D
because you changed a quote. Those words mean things. That’s why people are quick to reduce Jim Ryan’s.
Graphical Quality encompasses graphical effects too, and just like they said, it's up to the developers to reduce graphical quality as they deem fit.
But they go over graphical effects in the article and they are mentioned specifically. It’s a feature that they have the option to include AFTER they lower the resolution.
See below.
So in some cases they may choose to render at, say, 1080p, and then use the extra GPU headroom for things like better anti-aliasing or better graphical effects.

The Series S versions of the games are weaker equivalent versions of Series X games, not versions of last-gen games.
Wow. Combined with rikys comment you guys have yourself one hell of a choice of slogans.
 

Bernardougf

Member
It's not a change in narrative to say that a current-gen console won't hold back games in current-gen. Series S has the same CPU as the X minus a. .2 reduction in clock, it's got the RDNA2/Navi equivalent GPU just running at a lower clock/TF count. It's not forcing the developers to develop for a completely different architecture.

The Base Xbox One was the weakest console for a 7~8 year long generation, but it never held back games from realizing their potential otherwise on PS4, Pro or One X.

Not sure why it's gonna do this time when it didn't before ... did the narrative change there ?
Well if you think about it, if you had games beeing developed just for the PS4 pro you problably would end up with better games, with like Last of us 2 quality ? Maybe ?? Like if you had games only for the 3080 gpu ? ... So in a way is... the games are/were held back by multiple skus , but its been like this aways... people aways talked about lower denominator and etc .... Multiple SKUs and GPUs always affected game optimization ... and thats OK because we had awesome games anyway ... thats my point ... now.. saying that this dont exist in any way shape or form on the XSS and XSX .. i dont buy it .. sorry ... but its just my opinion even if im wrong and I more the welcome to be proven wrong by MS because i like games 😊😁
 

MonarchJT

Banned
What do you mean "what does the bolded part show to us"? How is this not perfectly clear?

"and whether it's the DualSense controller, whether it's the 3D audio, whether it's the multiple ways that the SSD can be used... we are thinking that it is time to give the PlayStation community something new, something different, that can really only be enjoyed on PS5"

None of that is referring to games being cross-gen or not being cross-gen. Controller. Audio. SSD. That's it.
the veiled Sony campaign against what Ms was officially doing (releasing crossgen games like halo and forza5) was pretty clear for any human being with an IQ above 100. It is not for nothing that many Sony users have risen and memes have exploded on the internet about how the phrase "we believe in generations" was a lie since there was no difference between how ms and Sony approached the market. No, indeed it seems that Sony continues with cross gen games while the last one for Microsoft it would seem to have been infinite halo.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Cherry picking quotes is fun but you REAAAALLY need to put the final part of the quote in there too:




He's talking about all those things in the context of creating new experiences that can only be enjoyed on the PS5.

And 2 months after this, they announced all those games are coming to the PS4 too. So, what he said directly contradicts with how the games are releasing on older hardware too.

I quoted the entire sentence......again. Last time I checked you are not getting any of the things he listed on PS4.

the veiled Sony campaign against what Ms was officially doing (releasing crossgen games like halo and forza5) was pretty clear for any human being with an IQ above 100.

Most human beings with an IQ above 100 can read. Console warriors unfortunately put their brain on hold and pretend words suddenly have different meaning cuz......console war.
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
Now you're just moving the goalposts. You claimed that the console was twice as expensive which it clearly isn't. The difference is just 100$/euro and you get vastly better hardware for it.

What the heck does the software price have to do with this when we're comparing hardware and features set? Also, it's not 300 euro for a series S with gamepass. It's 300 Euro + 120 Euro per year for your gamepass subscription which allows you to rent games of which most are temporarily available. That's not me hating on the service btw. I'm subscribed to it myself and I love it, but simply comparing subscription price to full purchases as if there are no downsides to gamepass is disingenious

If you don't care about ray tracing or higher framerates or the same visuals, that's fine, but then don't quote my post when I point out that it is not delivering the same experience.
It is perfectly idiotic to weigh in on the investment of a console by looking only at the hardware you buy the console to play games not to write about GPU feature sets and specs on a forum otherwise everyone would be buying only the XSX. I'm imagining a situation where grandparents or parents are doing gifts for christmas with one you get a console with who you add 1 euro to play hundreds games when they open the gift to try it. The other you have to spend 100 euros more for the hw and add 81 for a premium game 160 euros for ONLY two.Certainly there is a clear difference between rent and own .. but I repeat we are talking about a console oriented 100% to casual. I don't know if you want to believe me or not but this is the kind of proposition that is made to the customer when shopping for gifts. You will understand for yourself how the PlayStation (unless there is a specific request of that brand, a request that is unlikely to be strict if we are talking about a casual gamer) comes up with broken bones .. in the proposition to casual gamers if proposed comparatively to xss...especially if it is a third person buying a gift.
 
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adamsapple

Member
because you changed a quote. Those words mean things. That’s why people are quick to reduce Jim Ryan’s.

But they go over graphical effects in the article and they are mentioned specifically. It’s a feature that they have the option to include AFTER they lower the resolution.
See below.

Ok .. and ? that's exactly what we're getting aren't we ? Developers are choosing to reduce resolution and/or effects as needed.

Why are we so hung up on a few choice examples again ? Yes, Guardians doesn't have RT on Series S.

But the Matrix demo, which is far more technically impressive .. does.

What does that tell you ? The console certainly has the capability, it's up to the developers time and budgeting.


I quoted the entire sentence......again. Last time I checked you are not getting any of the things he listed on PS4.

Ok. But I'm having a little hard time understanding how this is an accurate equivalency of the Series S and PS4 still ...

The PS4 versions of all those games will be severely compromised versions of their PS5 counterparts, right ? They may have completely different lighting profiles, much more extended loading times etc, we agree on that much, I assume ?

Then that's just more proof that comparing it with Series S is just flat out wrong .. outside of the three, four games missing RT, the Series S provides an equivalent version of the games to PS5|Series X, not ports of the last gen versions.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
I quoted the entire sentence......again. Last time I checked you are not getting any of the things he listed on PS4.



Most human beings with an IQ above 100 can read. Console warriors unfortunately put their brain on hold and pretend words suddenly have different meaning cuz......console war.
So you officially saying that you haven't seen Sony trying to take advantage of the Ms cross-gen pseudo defaillance marketing campaign with he phrase " we believe in generations"? is this that you saying?
 
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FrankWza

Member
.
Ok .. and ? that's exactly what we're getting aren't we ? Developers are choosing to reduce resolution and/or effects as needed.
That’s not what was said and once again you are misquoting.
Why are we so hung up on a few choice examples again ? Yes, Guardians doesn't have RT on Series S.
And halo removed 120 FPS. So, it’s not so simple to develop for. It was supposed to be a matter of scaling down. All that extra time and effort on crossgen is bad but that will end soon. It’s ok for series s, because?
But the Matrix demo, which is far more technically impressive .. does.
After a “gargantuan effort “ according to the DF information they received when covering the game from the developers.
What does that tell you ? The console certainly has the capability, it's up to the developers time and budgeting.
exactly. You can get pretty much any game running if you lower graphics and remove settings. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of effort that can be used elsewhere. Like on the lead consoles. That’s not what was promised.
Ok. But I'm having a little hard time understanding how this is an accurate equivalency of the Series S and PS4 still ...
See above
outside of the three, four games missing RT, the Series S provides an equivalent version of the games to PS5|Series X
for now. Still requires a ton of work and their own first party studio has to remove 120fps after a year long delay and god knows how much additional funding.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
The vast majority of gamers couldn’t give a shit. Its us losers on GAF that do.

I agree in general but, I would sub enthusiasts for losers. If you take the time to post here than gaming is more than a casual thing for you and you take a bigger interest in gaming from all sides (business, tech, etc.), nothing wrong with that.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Ok. But I'm having a little hard time understanding how this is an accurate equivalency of the Series S and PS4 still ...

The PS4 versions of all those games will be severely compromised versions of their PS5 counterparts, right ? They may have completely different lighting profiles, much more extended loading times etc, we agree on that much, I assume ?

Then that's just more proof that comparing it with Series S is just flat out wrong .. outside of the three, four games missing RT, the Series S provides an equivalent version of the games to PS5|Series X, not ports of the last gen versions.

I don't know that either Xbox or PS versions of games are really going to be compromised because of XSS (and PC) or PS4. I've played plenty of PC games that had a vast range of system requirements and included features that were only available on certain hardware such as ray tracing. So how does that translate over to consoles? I don't know. Guess we will find out.

So you officially saying that you haven't seen Sony take advantage of the cross-gen pseudo defaillance marketing campaign? is this that you saying?

I'm saying I'm reading those words for what they actually say. Officially.
 

adamsapple

Member
Multi quoting FrankWza FrankWza


And halo removed 120 FPS. So, it’s not so simple to develop for. It was supposed to be a matter of scaling down. All that extra time and effort on crossgen is bad but that will end soon. It’s ok for series s, because?

False equivalency again. Series S is current gen, not cross-gen. If you're gonna get hung up on my misquoting, we can do this all day :D

For Halo: Infinite -- The Series S had a 120hz mode in the beta testing, removed from the retail version. The Beta also had 60hz face animation which is also 30hz in the final game.

Halo: Infinite clearly came in a very on-fire game, just see how bad the PC version performs for yet more evidence.




After a “gargantuan effort “ according to the DF information they received when covering the game from the developers.

Yet another case of misquoting ... this is the *ACTUAL* quote from DF:

First of all, Epic enlisted the aid of The Coalition - a studio that seems capable of achieving results from Unreal Engine quite unlike any other developer. Various optimisations were delivered that improved performance, many of which were more general in nature, meaning that yes, a Microsoft first-party studio would have helped in improving the PlayStation 5 version too. Multi-core and bloom optimisations were noted as specific enhancements from The Coalition, but this team has experience in getting great results from Series S too, so don't be surprised if they helped in what is a gargantuan effort.

a/ they're speculating (i-e "don't be surprised")
b/ they're talking about the demo as a whole and the coalitions help in engine improvement. Not specific to the Series S version.

For someone so hung up on picking words out in others quote, a very curious omission on your part Frank :D



exactly. You can get pretty much any game running if you lower graphics and remove settings. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of effort that can be used elsewhere. Like on the lead consoles. That’s not what was promised.



Time stamped: 19m 30s onward

".. But all the same next-gen featrures like Quick Resume, the Xbox Velocity Architecture, all the improvements we have with the Zen 2 CPU as well as the custom SoC including RDNA2, all those features apply to Xbox Series X as well as Series S"


I don't know about you Frank, but it looks like they're delivering what Jason said. Series S's GPU is capable of all the same RDNA 2 features, VRS etc.

RT is not an RDNA 2 only feature.



for now. Still requires a ton of work and their own first party studio has to remove 120fps after a year long delay and god knows how much additional funding.

The Series S supported 120hz in the network test beta:


It's a curious omission from the final game. But like I said above, the earlier builds of the game also had facial capture at 60hz which is 30hz in the final release.

One game, with the troubled development that it had, is not indicative of a consoles specs as a whole.
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
I don't know that either Xbox or PS versions of games are really going to be compromised because of XSS (and PC) or PS4. I've played plenty of PC games that had a vast range of system requirements and included features that were only available on certain hardware such as ray tracing. So how does that translate over to consoles? I don't know. Guess we will find out.



I'm saying I'm reading those words for what they actually say. Officially.
Well this is always you trying to gloss over what happened .. the phrase "we believe in generations" was born exactly in contrast to Spencer's words on the continuous release of newer hardware capable of launching old and new games...in a continuous timeline without the known stop and go, you make having during generational leaps of the consoles.
 
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mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
The Series S supported 120hz in the network test beta:


It's a curious omission from the final game. But like I said above, the earlier builds of the game also had facial capture at 60hz which is 30hz in the final release.

One game, with the troubled development that it had, is not indicative of a consoles specs as a whole.

But it also one of MS's "BIG" games too though.
 

yurinka

Member
the veiled Sony campaign against what Ms was officially doing (releasing crossgen games like halo and forza5) was pretty clear for any human being with an IQ above 100. It is not for nothing that many Sony users have risen and memes have exploded on the internet about how the phrase "we believe in generations" was a lie since there was no difference between how ms and Sony approached the market. No, indeed it seems that Sony continues with cross gen games while the last one for Microsoft it would seem to have been infinite halo.
Well this is always you trying to gloss over what happened .. the phrase "we believe in generations" was born exactly in contrast to Spencer's words on the continuous release of newer hardware capable of launching old and new games...in a continuous timeline without the known stop and go, you make having during generational leaps of the consoles.

Sony never said they weren't going to make crossgen games. In fact what Jim Ryan said in the 'we believe in generations' interview was that they were going to -as they did with all the previous generations- continue supporting PS4 during at least 2 or 3 years after the PS5 release because PS4 still has a huge active userbase and the big majority of its userbase won't jump to PS5 during the early years. And that he wanted to see PS5 games using the new features like haptic feedback, adaptative triggers, 3D audio or very fast loading times. He didn't lie, he explained what they are doing.

It was the interviewer who (wrongfully) assumed he was saying that weren't going to make crossgen games, highlighted that quote and then the media and forums focused on that instead of in Ryan's real and complete message.
 
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mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
Yeah but come on .. that game's development and release is pretty well documented.

We all know that.

True, but the game was also supported for the Xbox One S too. I would have thought the Series S would have checked all of those boxes. So we'll see how things go moving forward.
 

Rykan

Member
It is perfectly idiotic to weigh in on the investment of a console by looking only at the hardware you buy the console to play games not to write about GPU feature sets and specs on a forum otherwise everyone would be buying only the XSX. I'm imagining a situation where grandparents or parents are doing gifts for christmas with one you get a console with who you add 1 euro to play hundreds games when they open the gift to try it. The other you have to spend 100 euros more for the hw and add 81 for a premium game 160 euros for ONLY two.Certainly there is a clear difference between rent and own .. but I repeat we are talking about a console oriented 100% to casual. I don't know if you want to believe me or not but this is the kind of proposition that is made to the customer when shopping for gifts. You will understand for yourself how the PlayStation (unless there is a specific request of that brand, a request that is unlikely to be strict if we are talking about a casual gamer) comes up with broken bones .. in the proposition to casual gamers if proposed comparatively to xss...especially if it is a third person buying a gift.
Wow, you're unironically comparing the 1$ gamepass trial period to a full game purchase. Exactly 0 people purchased a Series S just because it has 1 month gamepass for 1$. This is a dumb argument. Also just to remind you, the pricing wasn't even part of the discussion at all. You're the one that brought in pricing in a discussion about whether the Series S offers the same experience. The actual pricing of the system or the games literally have nothing to do with the entire point.

Also this whole "Its oriented to casuals" nonsense is just dumb oversimplification by people who have no idea how the video game industry works or what the market looks like. The market isn't divided by "Casuals or hardcore" and there are an enormous amount of factors that come into play. There are many reasons why people pick up the cheaper console, budget being an important one. Saying that it's orienteded to casuals just because it is a cheaper machine with lower specs isn't based on any facts at all.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Because games are going to get more demanding as the generation goes along
Then it's a good thing the XSS has plenty of untapped potential seeing how it still hasn't had all its features used yet. Between that and the fact that future Xbox games all hit PC, including PCs with specs worse than the XSS I'm confident developers will be able to create games that run on XSS just fine. If they can make games on the X1 for almost a decade the XSS should be much easier.
He said the series s would offer the same experience as x at a lower resolution in the video.
He left the features up to the developers. He didn’t say they would be removed.
GotG didn’t remove Ray tracing the x has because they made a decision to focus on a different feature. They removed it, period.
Microsoft’s first party halo studio didn’t remove 120 FPS the x has because they added a different feature. Again, the removed it after attempting to include it. Lots of time, work and effort or an s limitation? Because according to his statement and this article, they were supposed to have the freedom to lower resolution to Include features, not lower resolutions and still have to remove them.


“The way that we designed the developer environment was that a developer would ideally target 4K at 60 fps, up to a 120 fps on Xbox Series X, and then they could easily scale down to the Xbox Series S by reducing the rendering resolution to 1440p,” Ronald said. “But they're not locked into that. So the developer can choose to use the power of the Xbox Series S in the way that they see fit. So in some cases they may choose to render at, say, 1080p, and then use the extra GPU headroom for things like better anti-aliasing or better graphical effects. On the other hand, the developer may choose to go after something like 120 fps, if that's right for the title, and that might result in resolution tradeoffs.”

IGNs translation:

In other words, gamers should expect the same games, whether they’re playing on Series X or Series S, with resolution and graphical quality being the primary differentiation.


I don't see the contradiction Frank. 120fps is primarily a graphical feature as is raytracing. As resolutions go up framerates go down. Guardians is a horrible title to use especially since the game can barely keep 60 without raytracing on larger GPU consoles and lacks a 120fps mode at all. I assume that the game is not complete in your mind which is silly. The unstable 120fps mode in Halo on the XSX also had no bearing on the experience when the game has a 60fps mode on XSS which the vast majority of gamers have access to especially those using the XSS. A stable 60fps is better than an unstable 120fps.

The XSS has a smaller GPU. Games on the system will run with reduced graphical effects and that is by design it has nothing to do with the the experience of using the console. Jason Ronald has no control over what things a developer might use or not. Even in the article you site it was a hypothetical. All he and the hardware team can do is make the features available. Just like when Housemarque chose to develop Returnal without raytracing and rendering it in 1080p. Does that mean Sony was being dishonest about what the PS5 could do? I'm pretty sure you'd say no.

You seem to have plenty of double standards regarding PlayStation I see. Like how like you are perfectly fine accepting Sony having a monopoly with regard to digital game sales on PS5 or PS5 not having any 3rd party Dual Sense controllers yet you complain about USB audio on Xbox, proprietary storage, and the XSS not having 120fps in Halo specifically but ignoring that the XSS has more 120fps games overall compared to the more expensive PS5. Again the arguments come across as bad faith. You actually ignore issues on the platform you have to complain about the platform you don't. Why would you do that? 🤔

Be honest Frank do you have an XSS or any Xbox for that matter? Can you answer my question and name the core features the XSS lacks compared to the XSX? Can you name ANY actual CONTENT that is missing on the XSS like levels, characters, or gameplay? An example would be the 128 player mode in Battlefield 2042 which is on the XSS but not last generation consoles. Does any of this affect you in ANY WAY? I get you like PlayStation so do I that's why I've bought every PlayStation that has come out. Perhaps if you bought an Xbox you wouldn't feel the need to enter Xbox threads to attack the platform with clearly uninformed silliness. Just enjoy your favorite system Frank, Xbox won't hurt you I promise.
 

FrankWza

Member
I don't see the contradiction Frank. 120fps is primarily a graphical feature as is raytracing. As resolutions go up framerates go down. Guardians is a horrible title to use especially since the game can barely keep 60 without raytracing on larger GPU consoles and lacks a 120fps mode at all. I assume that the game is not complete in your mind which is silly. The unstable 120fps mode in Halo on the XSX also had no bearing on the experience when the game has a 60fps mode on XSS which the vast majority of gamers have access to especially those using the XSS. A stable 60fps is better than an unstable 120fps.

The XSS has a smaller GPU. Games on the system will run with reduced graphical effects and that is by design it has nothing to do with the the experience of using the console. Jason Ronald has no control over what things a developer might use or not. Even in the article you site it was a hypothetical. All he and the hardware team can do is make the features available. Just like when Housemarque chose to develop Returnal without raytracing and rendering it in 1080p. Does that mean Sony was being dishonest about what the PS5 could do? I'm pretty sure you'd say no.

You seem to have plenty of double standards regarding PlayStation I see. Like how like you are perfectly fine accepting Sony having a monopoly with regard to digital game sales on PS5 or PS5 not having any 3rd party Dual Sense controllers yet you complain about USB audio on Xbox, proprietary storage, and the XSS not having 120fps in Halo specifically but ignoring that the XSS has more 120fps games overall compared to the more expensive PS5. Again the arguments come across as bad faith. You actually ignore issues on the platform you have to complain about the platform you don't. Why would you do that? 🤔

Be honest Frank do you have an XSS or any Xbox for that matter? Can you answer my question and name the core features the XSS lacks compared to the XSX? Can you name ANY actual CONTENT that is missing on the XSS like levels, characters, or gameplay? An example would be the 128 player mode in Battlefield 2042 which is on the XSS but not last generation consoles. Does any of this affect you in ANY WAY? I get you like PlayStation so do I that's why I've bought every PlayStation that has come out. Perhaps if you bought an Xbox you wouldn't feel the need to enter Xbox threads to attack the platform with clearly uninformed silliness. Just enjoy your favorite system Frank, Xbox won't hurt you I promise.
The desperation in these words is incredible. That article proves it. Yet, you’re still typing things you don’t understand or can’t comprehend.
The guy said “same experience at lower resolution” in the hype video and you tried to interpret it differently. Now you’re shown this article that literally interprets and goes into great detail that 120 FPS and Ray tracing are FEATURES and quotes Ronald saying it. He was interviewed for this. Do you think it goes to print without Microsoft PR team approving it? If a mistake was made it would have been amended by now.
Now these features are being omitted despite the lowered resolutions. Time is being wasted on a system when the lead consoles could be further optimized. There’s no scaling or flip switching. It’s hard to develop for. Period. Otherwise, developers would not need to REMOVE features the lead consoles have on the same games. Including halo which received an extra YEAR and a ton of extra funding.
 

adamsapple

Member
True, but the game was also supported for the Xbox One S too. I would have thought the Series S would have checked all of those boxes. So we'll see how things go moving forward.

I'm hoping when they drop cross-gen support and only have one console generation to target, these issues would be less, since instead of 5 formats they're developing for 2.

And I think the Halo things are bugs which may get fixed. DF already spoke to 343 that they're looking into the 30hz facial animation issue. If they can fix that, I imagine they might also reinstate the 120hz mode on Series S.
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
What Jason Ronald said to The Verge before release,

"Developers have a whole host of different techniques, whether that’s changing the resolution of their title, things like dynamic resolution scaling frame to frame — that’s something we’ve seen a lot of adoption of, especially towards the end of this generation,” explains Ronald. “And obviously the ability to enable and display different visual effects, without actually affecting the fundamental gameplay.”

The ability to enable and display different visual effects.

It's ironic to cry about the "we believe in generations" quote being misinterpreted when you are happy to do exactly the same thing with no shame.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
What Jason Ronald said to The Verge before release,

"Developers have a whole host of different techniques, whether that’s changing the resolution of their title, things like dynamic resolution scaling frame to frame — that’s something we’ve seen a lot of adoption of, especially towards the end of this generation,” explains Ronald. “And obviously the ability to enable and display different visual effects, without actually affecting the fundamental gameplay.”

The ability to enable and display different visual effects.

It's ironic to cry about the "we believe in generations" quote being misinterpreted when you are happy to do exactly the same thing with no shame.

There was a video of them going over this before the release too. I have never been able to find it again.
 
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