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[Sosokrates]

Unless we switch from lithium to something different then I don't see what will cause prices to come down to the degree they need to in order to make EV's affordable for everyone on a mass scale.

It's a finite resource, it's energy and resource intensive to mine, it's expensive to mine. In order for this to be a meaningful, sustainable and affordable endeavour we need to shift to renewables, not just shift the burden.

A note on China - they own a huge % share (over 50% in some instances and it gets even worse of you look at processing and refining) of market share for a lot of resources that are required for EV batteries so I question how incentivised they are to conduct the necessary R&D to find a viable alternative that is both cheaper and sustainable. They stand to gain more than anyone else during the EV adoption phase. I'd also go as far as to say any alternative they do come up with will also require everyone going through them to get the necessary materials.

Regarding Sustainability, it better then ICE vehicles, which have an estimated of about 50yrs until we run out of oil
https://mahb.stanford.edu/library-item/fossil-fuels-run/

battery chemicals are estimated to last 185 yrs

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/


so combine that with less local polution and better performance I would still say EVs are the better option, and they get cheaper.or specifically cheaper models will be introduced.

 

[GHG]

Regarding Sustainability, it better then ICE vehicles, which have an estimated of about 50yrs until we run out of oil
https://mahb.stanford.edu/library-item/fossil-fuels-run/

battery chemicals are estimated to last 185 yrs

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/


so combine that with less local polution and better performance I would still say EVs are the better option, and they get cheaper.or specifically cheaper models will be introduced.

Sustainable means shifting to actual renewables, not moving to another finite resource that causes a crap ton of pollutants at source.

Oil shouldn't even be part of this discussion, we are moving on, that much is clear. What needs to be asked is whether lithium ion EV's are the correct next step or not. It's all good and well having 185 years of theoretical reserves when it's a ball ache to extract and leaves gaping holes in our earth. With the current extraction methods we will face shortages by 2025:

Electric cars fend off supply challenges to more than double global sales – Analysis - IEA

Electric cars fend off supply challenges to more than double global sales - A commentary by Leonardo Paoli, Timur Gül

www.iea.org

As highlighted in last year’s IEA special report on The Role of Critical Minerals in Clean Energy Transitions, the world faces potential shortages of lithium and cobalt as early as 2025 unless sufficient investments are made to expand production. Further growth of EVs requires not only an expansion of the extraction of key minerals – but also of the entire EV value chain. This spans battery metal processing and refining, cathode and anode manufacturing, separator manufacturing, cell production, battery assembly and, finally, the assembly of electric vehicles. Each of these industries, some of which are nascent, need to expand rapidly to avoid bottlenecks that would slow down the transition to full electric mobility.

So the dream of cheap EV's on a mass scale any time soon is nothing but that, a dream. Prices will only continue to rise and most people will be priced out.

 

[Sosokrates]

Sustainable means shifting to actual renewables, not moving to another finite resource that causes a crap ton of pollutants at source.

Oil shouldn't even be part of this discussion, we are moving on, that much is clear. What needs to be asked is whether lithium ion EV's are the correct next step or not. It's all good and well having 185 years of theoretical reserves when it's a ball ache to extract and leaves gaping holes in our earth. With the current extraction methods we will face shortages by 2025:

http://[URL][URL]https://www.iea.or...y-challenges-to-more-than-double-global-sales

[/URL][/URL]



So the dream of cheap EV's on a mass scale any time soon is nothing but that, a dream. Prices will only continue to rise and most people will be priced out.

It aint a dream you can already get electric vehicles from very cheap from china. And you can get smartcar like electric vehicles for cheap, so it aint a dream. Tesla is the biggest EV manufacturer but does not even have a budget model yet, you act like its an impossible thing but it aint, a model 3 battery replacement is like $10k, so they could reduce the capacity and spec and reduce the size of the vehicle, reduce everything to get cheaper models....

 

[AJUMP23]

Regarding Sustainability, it better then ICE vehicles, which have an estimated of about 50yrs until we run out of oil
https://mahb.stanford.edu/library-item/fossil-fuels-run/

battery chemicals are estimated to last 185 yrs

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/


so combine that with less local polution and better performance I would still say EVs are the better option, and they get cheaper.or specifically cheaper models will be introduced.

• "The world will run out of oil in 10 years." - U.S. Bureau of Mines (1914)
• "The world will run out of oil and other fossil fuels by 1990." - Paul Erlich, Limits to Growth (1973)
• "The world will run out of oil in 2030, and other fossil fuels in 2050." - Paul Erlich, Beyond the Limit (2002)

When the residents of Tulsa, Oklahoma buried a car in 1957 as part of an enormous time capsule, they included containers of gasoline. The good people of Tulsa reasoned that the folks of 2007 might not have any gas left to fill up the Plymouth Belvedere that they were interring for a fifty year journey into the future. Boy were they ever wrong.

1909: 25 or 30 years longer​

"Petroleum has been used for less than 50 years, and it is estimated that the supply will last about 25 or 30 years longer.

1919: Two to five years until maximum production​

"In meeting the world's needs, however, the oil from the United States will continue to occupy a less and less dominant position, because within the next two to five years the oil fields of this country will reach their maximum production and from that on we will face an ever increasing decline."

— October 23, 1919 Oil and Gas News

1937: Gone in 15 years​

Capt. H. A. Stuart, director of the naval petroleum reserves, told the Senate Naval Affairs Committee today the oil supply of this country will last only about 15 years.

1956: Ten to fifteen years until peak oil​

"M. King Hubbert of the Shell Development Co. predicted [one year ago] that peak oil production would be reached in the next 10 to 15 years and after that would gradually decline."

— March 9, 1957 Corpus Christi Times (Corpus Christi, TX)

1980: In the year 2000​

"Stressing the need for conservation, [physicist Dr. Hans] Bethe said the world will reach its peak oil production before the year 2000. Production of oil worldwide will then drop to zero over about 20 years, he said. Rigorous conservation could stretch the world's oil supply to the year 2050, he said.

— October 17, 1980 Syracuse Post Standard (Syracuse, NY)

2002: Global peak by the year 2010​

"Global supplies of crude oil will peak as early as 2010 and then start to decline, ushering in an era of soaring energy prices and economic upheaval — or so said an international group of petroleum specialists meeting Friday."

— May 25, 2002 Index Journal (Greenwood, SC)

I could go on, but I think we have established you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Sosokrates]

• "The world will run out of oil in 10 years." - U.S. Bureau of Mines (1914)
• "The world will run out of oil and other fossil fuels by 1990." - Paul Erlich, Limits to Growth (1973)
• "The world will run out of oil in 2030, and other fossil fuels in 2050." - Paul Erlich, Beyond the Limit (2002)

When the residents of Tulsa, Oklahoma buried a car in 1957 as part of an enormous time capsule, they included containers of gasoline. The good people of Tulsa reasoned that the folks of 2007 might not have any gas left to fill up the Plymouth Belvedere that they were interring for a fifty year journey into the future. Boy were they ever wrong.

1909: 25 or 30 years longer​

"Petroleum has been used for less than 50 years, and it is estimated that the supply will last about 25 or 30 years longer.

1919: Two to five years until maximum production​

"In meeting the world's needs, however, the oil from the United States will continue to occupy a less and less dominant position, because within the next two to five years the oil fields of this country will reach their maximum production and from that on we will face an ever increasing decline."

— October 23, 1919 Oil and Gas News

1937: Gone in 15 years​

Capt. H. A. Stuart, director of the naval petroleum reserves, told the Senate Naval Affairs Committee today the oil supply of this country will last only about 15 years.

1956: Ten to fifteen years until peak oil​

"M. King Hubbert of the Shell Development Co. predicted [one year ago] that peak oil production would be reached in the next 10 to 15 years and after that would gradually decline."

— March 9, 1957 Corpus Christi Times (Corpus Christi, TX)

1980: In the year 2000​

"Stressing the need for conservation, [physicist Dr. Hans] Bethe said the world will reach its peak oil production before the year 2000. Production of oil worldwide will then drop to zero over about 20 years, he said. Rigorous conservation could stretch the world's oil supply to the year 2050, he said.

— October 17, 1980 Syracuse Post Standard (Syracuse, NY)

2002: Global peak by the year 2010​

"Global supplies of crude oil will peak as early as 2010 and then start to decline, ushering in an era of soaring energy prices and economic upheaval — or so said an international group of petroleum specialists meeting Friday."

— May 25, 2002 Index Journal (Greenwood, SC)

I could go on, but I think we have established you don't know what you are talking about.

All you have established is that those sources were wrong, so its you you does not know what you are talking about...

 

[AJUMP23]

All you have established is that those sources were wrong, so its you you does not know what you are talking about...

Don't worry you will be wrong too.

 

[Sosokrates]

Don't worry you will be wrong too.

Lol im already correct you can already get EVs for $15-20k

 

[GHG]

It aint a dream you can already get electric vehicles from very cheap from china. And you can get smartcar like electric vehicles for cheap, so it aint a dream. Tesla is the biggest EV manufacturer but does not even have a budget model yet, you act like its an impossible thing but it aint, a model 3 battery replacement is like $10k, so they could reduce the capacity and spec and reduce the size of the vehicle, reduce everything to get cheaper models....

People don't want Chinese EV's and they don't want low capacity smartcars. People want like for like replacements for their current vehicles without having to compromise on range, features and price. With degradation and expensive battery replacements there are already deep concerns that even the used EV market won't open things up for those unable to afford new in the same way that it traditionally has.

Lol im already correct you can already get EVs for $15-20k

What's your source on this?

The leaf is currently $27,800 for the 40KHw model:

2024 Nissan LEAF All-Electric Car

Explore the 2024 all-electric Nissan LEAF with instant acceleration, incredible range, and plenty of cargo space. Explore features, benefits, specs & more.

www.nissanusa.com

Prices are going up and will continue to do so.

 

[AJUMP23]

The more tax credits they add the more they will go up.

Citing “significant material cost increases and other factors,” Ford’s announcement revealed price hikes between $6,000 and $8,500 for its electric vehicles. The F-150 Lightning Pro, for example, will sell for $46,974 — a $7,000 increase from the $39,947 charged for last year’s model. GM likewise increased the cost of its electric Hummer by $6,250 last month.

The price hikes are comparable to the $7,500 tax credits for new electric vehicles included in the $740 billion Inflation Reduction Act, which currently awaits President Joe Biden’s signature. The legislation earmarks a total of $369 billion to combat “the existential crisis of climate change,” according to remarks from Biden.

“It addresses the climate crisis and strengthens our energy security, creating jobs manufacturing solar panels, wind turbines, and electric vehicles in America with American workers,” he said. “It lowers families’ energy costs by hundreds of dollars each year.

 

[Sosokrates]

People don't want Chinese EV's and they don't want low capacity smartcars. People want like for like replacements for their current vehicles without having to compromise on range, features and price. With degradation and expensive battery replacements there are already deep concerns that even the used EV market won't open things up for those unable to afford new in the same way that it traditionally has.



What's your source on this?

The leaf is currently $27,800 for the 40KHw model:

http://[URL][URL][URL]https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL]

Prices are going up and will continue to do so.

Lol its funny thats you discount chinese EVs because it does not fit your narritive.
You seem like you just want a fight,

You think people dont want low capacity EVs, oh right really is that fact....

Well i would like a 100-150mile EV...

This one has a claimed 180mile range

https://www.ezoomed.com/blog/buy-new/the-cheapest-electric-car-in-the-world/

prices is going up with everything, but the EV market is still young, when auto makers only make EVs, they will transition there budget line of ICE vehicles to EV's...
but like a stubborn person u keep ignoring this point....


Also how do you explain how the smartphone market got cheaper?

 

[Lady Jane]

Lol im already correct you can already get EVs for $15-20k

The problem isn't the selling price, it's the ROI. The resell value and repair costs create a money pit.

 

[Pagusas]

Lithium Ion is not the final answer, but it is a good stop gap solution as tech continues to advance. I'm glad we are moving this way instead of continuing down the fossil fuel path. I imagine a future where the battery packs of these cars get smaller and more powerful (to a certain point) and become easily swappable. That'll fix the issue of resale value and the crazy cost of battery replacements as we see them now. Things will keep moving forward, advancements will keep happening, and in 20 years the landscape of all this will look completely different.

 

[Sosokrates]

The problem isn't the selling price, it's the ROI. The resell value and repair costs create a money pit.

EVs have less maintenance then ICE vehicles. Resell value is high for EVs.
The only expense you have is your electric bill and a new battery every 10years.

 

[Ownage]

Regardless, American citizens changing their ways will have a little effect on the Earth as long as these companies keep operating as they do and especially if China and India don't modernize their factories to not essentially be volcanoes of pollution. Putting yourself in a far worst financial position while these actors are at play is only hurting you with no benefits to anyone or anything, especially the Earth.

Nobody ever said people are smart.

 

[GHG]

Lol its funny thats you discount chinese EVs because it does not fit your narritive.
You seem like you just want a fight,

You think people dont want low capacity EVs, oh right really is that fact....

Well i would like a 100-150mile EV...

This one has a claimed 180mile range

https://www.ezoomed.com/blog/buy-new/the-cheapest-electric-car-in-the-world/

prices is going up with everything, but the EV market is still young, when auto makers only make EVs, they will transition there budget line of ICE vehicles to EV's...
but like a stubborn person u keep ignoring this point....


Also how do you explain how the smartphone market got cheaper?

The idea that the price of everything is going up due to inflation, therefore we can discount the lithium price increases is a flawed one. There is no commodity that has increased in price more than lithium in the last TTM. Find me another commodity that is up over 400%, you can't.The inflationary pressures that lithium currently faces will continue throughout and long past the recession we are currently in, the articles I've already linked outline the ins and outs of why.

China are able to sell cars for cheaper to their local market because they are the ones who mine and produce the stuff (est. 80%). A lot of those cars will not be, and will never be, available globally for a multitude of reasons (tarrifs, safety, privicy, etc). So what are we left with? The usual crop of manufacturers that we see on the roads nowadays, none of whom are able to take advantage of cheaper lithium from source.

Just because you'd be happy to drive around in a no-name cheap Chinese EV it doesn't mean most others would. As an example for range:

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/01/u-s-consumers-expect-bev-driving-range-over-500-miles/

Ask yourself this - if there were a huge market for people who are happy to settle for 100-200 miles range then why is it not currently being served by current combustion engine cars?

Smartphones are much less complex goods to manufacter in comparison to cars, margins are also much higher which allows for manufacters to be a lot more flexible in terms of pricing. Apples to oranges.

 

[Sosokrates]

The idea that the price of everything is going up due to inflation, therefore we can discount the lithium price increases is a flawed one. There is no commodity that has increased in price more than lithium in the last TTM. Find me another commodity that is up over 400%, you can't.The inflationary pressures that lithium currently faces will continue throughout and long past the recession we are currently in, the articles I've already linked outline the ins and outs of why.

China are able to sell cars for cheaper to their local market because they are the ones who mine and produce the stuff (est. 80%). A lot of those cars will not be, and will never be, available globally for a multitude of reasons (tarrifs, safety, privicy, etc). So what are we left with? The usual crop of manufacturers that we see on the roads nowadays, none of whom are able to take advantage of cheaper lithium from source.

Just because you'd be happy to drive around in a no-name cheap Chinese EV it doesn't mean most others would. As an example for range:

http://[URL]https://gmauthority.com...mers-expect-bev-driving-range-over-500-miles/

[/URL]

Ask yourself this - if there were a huge market for people who are happy to settle for 100-200 miles range then why is it not currently being served by current combustion engine cars?

Smartphones are much less complex goods to manufacter in comparison to cars, margins are also much higher which allows for manufacters to be a lot more flexible in terms of pricing. Apples to oranges.

You know it is possible for the general cost of EV's to go up but cheaper models to be released..games consoles are going up in price, and the SeriesS was released.... You can deflect and say other stuff, but what Im saying is true and if you dont accept the truth then I dont want to continue this conversation with you.

And the fact the cars are more complex to manufacture then smartphones does not mean the auto industry does not benefit from economies of scale and the introduction of budget models.

Ask yourself this - if there were a huge market for people who are happy to settle for 100-200 miles range then why is it not currently being served by current combustion engine cars?

Well, ice cars did not always have such great range...
The Reason there is not 100-200mile range Ice cars is because they dont need a huge tank to do so. So with EVs its a limit of the current tech, it does not mean its not useful. The average car commute is under 1hour, so such a car would be useful to a significant portion of the population.

 

[GHG]

You can deflect and say other stuff, but what Im saying is true and if you dont accept the truth then I dont want to continue this conversation with you.

I'm the second person in this thread that you've decided to take this stance with when they've attempted to talk sense into you. You clearly don't want to read any of the external articles that have been provided, all of which outline the facts regarding the current and future situation EV manufacturers face. It's a waste of time, you have an ideology in your head and nobody can educate you.

Do be sure to let us all know when you manage to get your hands on some cheap Chinese low range tin pot though.

 

[Sosokrates]

I'm the second person in this thread that you've decided to take this stance with when they've attempted to talk sense into you. You clearly don't want to read any of the external articles that have been provided, all of which outline the facts regarding the current and future situation EV manufacturers face. It's a waste of time, you have an ideology in your head and nobody can educate you.

Do be sure to let us all know when you manage to get your hands on some cheap Chinese low range tin pot though.

I have already acknowledged your point.

Its you who cant acknowledge mine....

And I wont need to get a chinese car, if you had been reading my posts you would know that with auto manufacturers moving to EV's exclusively it will increase demand, which will create economies of scale, while also transitioning there budget ICE vehicles to EV'S..
But it does not matter how many times I say this information to you, you just ignore it ....


Also dont lie, Ive only taken this stance with you because you continue to ignore the facts, which show my point to be correct.



I mean take a budget ice car today of £15,000

Now if the manufacturer wants to make it electric there will be substantial R+D costs in designing an EV platform, but once that is done the material costs wont be radically higher for the EV, they replace an ICEngine and fuel systems with a battery and electric motors.
The price difference is not got to be that drastic, batteries are very expensive but electric motors are cheaper then ICEngines, that £15,000 car might cost £17,000 as an EV.
And my original point was that cheaper models will be introduced which is something that will happen regardless if lithium is going up.

 

[NickFire]

I have already acknowledged your point.

Its you who cant acknowledge mine....

And I wont need to get a chinese car, if you had been reading my posts you would know that with auto manufacturers moving to EV's exclusively it will increase demand, which will create economies of scale, while also transitioning there budget ICE vehicles to EV'S..
But it does not matter how many times I say this information to you, you just ignore it ....


Also dont lie, Ive only taken this stance with you because you continue to ignore the facts, which show my point to be correct.



I mean take a budget ice car today of £15,000

Now if the manufacturer wants to make it electric there will be substantial R+D costs in designing an EV platform, but once that is done the material costs wont be radically higher for the EV, they replace an ICEngine and fuel systems with a battery and electric motors.
The price difference is not got to be that drastic, batteries are very expensive but electric motors are cheaper then ICEngines, that £15,000 car might cost £17,000 as an EV.
And my original point was that cheaper models will be introduced which is something that will happen regardless if lithium is going up.

Reliable electric cars might get cheaper in the short term (doubtful but possible IMO), but what happens when new gas cars are banned? My prediction is that the cost of electric vehicles goes absolutely haywire, and beats Elon in getting to Mars. Just look at what happened to vehicle prices the past two years when plants had to slow down because of Covid restrictions.

 

[Fuz]

Maybe start banning SUVs?

 

[Kamina]

The issue with the Electricity supply is the same in Europe.
If more people were switching to EVs they would have to produce more power from gas, which in turn would lower the storage for heating in winter.
The whole climate protection cause isnt well thought through at all and shows how quick we are to jumping on bandwagons we didnt even check.
Let’s solve the power supply issue before forcing people to shift to cars that can’t be currently supplied without burning gas instead of fuel.

 

[chromhound]

Lol im already correct you can already get EVs for $15-20k

The Leaf is getting the Boot

the answer to every problem: Synthetic Fuel

Home - eFuel Alliance

www.efuel-alliance.eu

Carbon-Neutral eFuels Coming, Porsche Invests $75 Million in Company

Porsche wants you to continue to enjoy your classic 911 for years to come, and may even one day deliver all new cars with a tank of eFuel.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[Unknown?]

I bought a volt in 2018 because I was tired of gas going up. I love it, but my next car will probably be gas just because of this law.

Look at Europe with electricity going up 250%. Electric isn't a good idea in this state.

 

[DeepEnigma]

People don't want Chinese EV's and they don't want low capacity smartcars. People want like for like replacements for their current vehicles without having to compromise on range, features and price. With degradation and expensive battery replacements there are already deep concerns that even the used EV market won't open things up for those unable to afford new in the same way that it traditionally has.



What's your source on this?

The leaf is currently $27,800 for the 40KHw model:

2024 Nissan LEAF All-Electric Car

Explore the 2024 all-electric Nissan LEAF with instant acceleration, incredible range, and plenty of cargo space. Explore features, benefits, specs & more.

www.nissanusa.com

Prices are going up and will continue to do so.

And what a garbage POS that thing is for the price.

Source: Good friend had one (on trade). Had to keep the thing plugged in every... single... day, if you wanted to do anything for a normal daily driver. It never hit the high end estimated mileage per charge. Not even close. It could barely get out of its own way as well.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

People don't want Chinese EV's and they don't want low capacity smartcars. People want like for like replacements for their current vehicles without having to compromise on range, features and price.

They won’t get it since their grandparents and parents continued to fuck up the environment for decades. Sorry, it fell on this generation to start paying up.

Sins of the fathers and all that.

 

[GHG]

And what a garbage POS that thing is for the price.

Source: Good friend had one (on trade). Had to keep the thing plugged in every... single... day, if you wanted to do anything for a normal daily driver. It never hit the high end estimated mileage per charge. Not even close. It could barely get out of its own way as well.

Once all is said and done I believe we will settle on synthetic fuels anyway. Most likely we look back at this period of mass hysteria and laugh.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They won’t get it since their grandparents and parents continued to fuck up the environment for decades. Sorry, it fell on this generation to start paying up.

Sins of the fathers and all that.

That's the narrative they're selling you. Along with overpriced vehicles.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

That's the narrative they're selling you. Along with overpriced vehicles.

I thought this forum got rid of crazy conspiracy theories?

 

[Lady Jane]

I thought this forum got rid of crazy conspiracy theories?

Plenty of posts in this thread have detailed out how EV vehicles aren't environment friendly and how they are money pits.

 

[GHG]

I thought this forum got rid of crazy conspiracy theories?

"Anything I disagree with is a conspiracy"

Ok.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I thought this forum got rid of crazy conspiracy theories?

Conspiracy theory?

How is it a conspiracy theory that those who are preaching this to the masses, are buying massive yachts that use 128gallons of fuel PER MILE, still using private planes to fly everywhere, buy their 5-8MPG super/hypercars, massive SUV convoys, live in massive mansions that require more electrical infrastructure than most third world villages, etc.?

It's called, lead by example, or you're full of shit. It's all about control, peasant. Rules for thee.

Plenty of posts in this thread have detailed out how EV vehicles aren't environment friendly and how they are money pits.

And... this.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Plenty of posts in this thread have detailed out how EV vehicles aren't environment friendly and how they are money pits.

I was not saying that, actually I agree with one French activist that said (at a conference full of gas industry leaders no less):

“People believe that a few tons of metal with battery big AF is ecological”

I am saying either way countries will new push regulation to combat climate change, fossil fuel cars being one casualty.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

How is it a conspiracy theory that those who are preaching this to the masses, are buying massive yachts that use 128gallons of fuel PER MILE, still using private planes to fly everywhere, buy their 5-8MPG super/hypercars, massive SUV convoys, live in massive mansions that require more electrical infrastructure than most third world villages, etc.?

How many super yachts and cars there are in the world vs. regular diesels?

 

[DeepEnigma]

How many super yachts and cars there are in the world vs. regular diesels?

Well, that went over your head.

 

[Havoc2049]

I was not saying that, actually I agree with one French activist that said (at a conference full of gas industry leaders no less):

“People believe that a few tons of metal with battery big AF is ecological”

I am saying either way countries will new push regulation to combat climate change, fossil fuel cars being one casualty.

EV vehicles and the massive power grid needed to power them aren't made with pixie dust.

The amount of resources used to make "green" energy happen is massive. The footprint compared to traditional sources of energy is massive as well. The California desert is turning into one massive wind and solar farm that goes on for miles and miles and they are still having trouble powering the grid.

 

[JayK47]

It is about having stock in green companies and then passing laws requiring green infrastructure and sitting back and getting rich AF. It was never about saving the planet. Want to reduce carbon? Plant trees.

 

[chromhound]

World leaders want to save the planet by flying in other countries in their luxurious plane.

Hydrogen Plane?

 

[lachesis]

They should start big then move smaller... than the other way around.
Like Cruise ships, container ships, planes and especially private planes.

Compared to that, a regular motor vehicle is rather insignificant. They got it wrong.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They should start big then move smaller... than the other way around.
Like Cruise ships, container ships, planes and especially private planes.

Compared to that, a regular motor vehicle is rather insignificant. They got it wrong.

The money and control is in the mainstream devices.

How are them electric car agendas going in India, Africa, etc, and the like? Great infrastructure, I hear. Or is this more, "out of sight, out of mind" like lil miss propagated "how dare you!"

 

[Lady Jane]

It is about having stock in green companies and then passing laws requiring green infrastructure and sitting back and getting rich AF. It was never about saving the planet. Want to reduce carbon? Plant trees.

Yuup. As a citizen, don't engage in this bullshit. Save your money.

Here are your options:

Bought an EV? Don't forget to repair that battery for $15k after 5 years. Oh you want to get an extended warranty to cover the battery? Nope, insurance companies got smart and don't accept that lose-lose scenario anymore. Hint: When insurance companies back out, that's when you know that it's a bad idea despite what your government tells you. Oh you want to sell it instead? Well get ready to be laughed at by every dealer in your zip code because that's what's going to happen when you show up with an EV that has a dead battery. Uh oh, you're $30k in the hole. But hey, your government thanks you so at least you got that.

or

Pick up that brand new slappin gas Camry for $30k and then resell it at $25k in 5 years, or just keep it. It's gas. With basic maintenance, that sucker can last 15 years easy. Want that baby be covered in case something goes wrong? Add $1k-$2k to that financing plan and get your extended coverage.

Save your money. Personal EV vehicles are not the future. Wait for public transportation infrastructure to improve. That's the future that these car manufactures don't want you to think is coming. For now, invest in personal gas vehicles so you that money keeps coming back to you until personal vehicles finally become obsolete. Yeah it might be a while but it won't be before gas vehicles die out, that's for sure.

 

[Hardensoul]

I own a Tesla Model 3 LR for over a year now, I know going green this quickly is not sustainable.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yuup. As a citizen, don't engage in this bullshit. Save your money.

Here are your options:

Bought an EV? Don't forget to repair that battery for $15k after 5 years. Oh you want to get an extended warranty to cover the battery? Nope, insurance companies got smart and don't accept that lose-lose scenario anymore. Hint: When insurance companies back out, that's when you know that it's a bad idea despite what your government tells you. Oh you want to sell it instead? Well get ready to be laughed at by every dealer in your zip code because that's what's going to happen when you show up with an EV that has a dead battery. Uh oh, you're $30k in the hole. But hey, your government thanks you so at least you got that.

or

Pick up that brand new slappin gas Camry for $30k and then resell it at $25k in 5 years, or just keep it. It's gas. With basic maintenance, that sucker can last 15 years easy. Want that baby be covered in case something goes wrong? Add $1k-$2k to that financing plan and get your extended coverage.

Save your money. Personal EV vehicles are not the future. Wait for public transportation infrastructure to improve. That's the future that these car manufactures don't want you to think is coming. For now, invest in personal gas vehicles so you that money keeps coming back to you until personal vehicles finally become obsolete. Yeah it might be a while but it won't be before gas vehicles die out, that's for sure.

The funny thing is a lot EV kinds of drivers will the type of people who work from home now or are in hybrid. So a lot of those gas savings just evaporated.

I worked from home for two years and now back at the office only half the time.

As for California, if they want to go full EV in 13 years which means there will be heavy promotion of it and people will buy more and more, I guess that means they are committed to boosting up the power grid.

All I know is it’s probably the only place in the US and Canada I hear about getting blackouts, yet the state is supposed to be the high tech capital of the world and it can’t even get a utility grid working.

13 years is a ways out and it doesnt mean existing gas cars are banned but at some point California will need to ramp up electricity capacity fast.

 

[Kenpachii]

The funny thing is a lot EV kinds of drivers will the type of people who work from home now or are in hybrid. So a lot of those gas savings just evaporated.

I worked from home for two years and now back at the office only half the time.

As for California, if they want to go full EV in 13 years which means there will be heavy promotion of it and people will buy more and more, I guess that means they are committed to boosting up the power grid.

All I know is it’s probably the only place in the US and Canada I hear about getting blackouts, yet the state is supposed to be the high tech capital of the world and it can’t even get a utility grid working.

13 years is a ways out and it doesnt mean existing gas cars are banned but at some point California will need to ramp up electricity capacity fast.

They don't even have to promote it, they can just ban not fuel efficient cars in city's and make it green zones. Exactly what they do in europe. At that point people will ditch there cars for electric ones just to be able to get in there.

 

[EekTheKat]

A general rule someone shared with us when we looked at an ev was to multiply the quoted range by 0.75 for a more accurate real world figure.

Also at the risk of freaking perspective buyers out even more. It is recommended to keep your battery between 20-80 percent. Some will give a slightly higher range of numbers to keep the charge at, some will say lower. But the general idea is to not run your car down to a dead battery and to avoid charging to full capacity every day. This may or may not have an impact on quoted range figures vs real world numbers.

It's a lot like freaking out over lithium ion battery care in mobile devices. my phone right now is capped at 85 percent while my laptop is capped at 60 percent charge.

Going with an EV has been eye opening, but the part of me that never grew up will always have a soft spot for a high performance gas guzzler.

 

[chromhound]

i think my next car will be a V8

 

[StreetsofBeige]

They don't even have to promote it, they can just ban not fuel efficient cars in city's and make it green zones. Exactly what they do in europe. At that point people will ditch there cars for electric ones just to be able to get in there.

Unless EV cars get cheap (which they definitely are not right now) and get a lot more variety. What happens in the following situations if EV mandates happen over time and people have to get ready gravitate to buy EVs in 2035?

1. Person needs a car and doesn't have a lot of money to buy one (when right now they can find Civics and Corollas for cheap, even cheaper if used)

2. Person needs a pick up or van, and right now I dont think there is much selection for those types of vehicles

At that time, if prices dont drop and selection ramps up then what?

 

[DeepEnigma]

i think my next car will be a V8

Just be careful around large crowds of people.

 

[JayK47]

I work in the utility industry. 13 years may seem a ways off, but with the amount of permits and other BS needed to build anything in California, 13 years is not nearly enough time. Unless they pass laws to cut the red tape and push through grid upgrades, California will be the poster child, yet again, for how not to do it. It takes nearly 10 years for land use permits, doing environmental studies, and various other studies and investigations before design even starts. I sincerely doubt California will have anywhere near enough electrical capacity for all of the forced electric cars they will have. They will simply be expected to live with more blackouts, brownouts and forced electrical cutbacks. It will look even more 3rd world.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I work in the utility industry. 13 years may seem a ways off, but with the amount of permits and other BS needed to build anything in California, 13 years is not nearly enough time. Unless they pass laws to cut the red tape and push through grid upgrades, California will be the poster child, yet again, for how not to do it. It takes nearly 10 years for land use permits, doing environmental studies, and various other studies and investigations before design even starts. I sincerely doubt California will have anywhere near enough electrical capacity for all of the forced electric cars they will have. They will simply be expected to live with more blackouts, brownouts and forced electrical cutbacks. It will look even more 3rd world.

Just set your thermostat to 85° and don’t wash your cars or take showers once a week, and don’t plug them in either. I don’t see what the big deal is, peasant.

P.S. make sure to pay more and more taxes every year.

 

[Goalus]

Unless EV cars get cheap (which they definitely are not right now) and get a lot more variety. What happens in the following situations if EV mandates happen over time and people have to get ready gravitate to buy EVs in 2035?

1. Person needs a car and doesn't have a lot of money to buy one (when right now they can find Civics and Corollas for cheap, even cheaper if used)

2. Person needs a pick up or van, and right now I dont think there is much selection for those types of vehicles

At that time, if prices dont drop and selection ramps up then what?

Used EVs will be dirt cheap during the next decade because they will be outdated very quickly due to the rapid technology advancements in the EV space.