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Can people please understand that Switch 2 COULD be more powerful than Steam Deck?!

01011001

Member
This is, very clearly, a direct response to that other thread
I posted this in said thread as a simple comment, but I just was in the mood to make this thread about it.

Thinking that the Switch 2 could be as powerful or even more powerful than the Steam Deck is not at all unrealistic. People look at the Switch and see a system barely more powerful than the Wii U, then just assume that the jump to the new system will not reach Steam Deck levels of performance.

so 2 things about that.

1: The Steam Deck is not as powerful as many seem to think it is. The Steam Deck is less powerful in some respects than the PS4, mainly the GPU can not quite keep up with the PS4. And we are talking base PS4 here btw.
The PS4 has a 1.8TF GPU with consistent clock speeds that never change, while the Steam Deck has a 1.6TF GPU with variable clock speeds that can throttle under load.
It does have a decent CPU and enough Memory to perform very well, and it can reach 60fps in games where the PS4 could not, be it at a way lower resolution/graphical fidelity.

2: The Hardware inside the Switch is not a weak as some seem to think.
First of all it outperforms the Wii U and Xbox 360 quite a bit, either allowing for higher framerates or higher resolutions than on those consoles in similar or the same games.
All of this while also having a more modern feature set that can handle modern engines which would not even be able to run on 360 or PS3.​

But most importantly, we have to look at the actual hardware that Nvidia had available since at least back in 2019... namely the Tegra X1+, codename Mariko, which is the SoC used in all current Switch models since 2019

This Tegra X1+ could have easily been used to create a Nintendo Switch Pro, with a big boost in GPU and CPU performance, but Nintendo simply used it due to cost reduction and to have longer battery life.
How powerful is the Tegra X1+ when actually used to it's fullest? well, look at the stats below

Switch max clock speed:
-CPU: 1.02ghz
-GPU: 0.768ghz / 393 GFLOPs (max speed when docked)

Mariko Tegra X1+ max rated clock speed:
-CPU: 1.90ghz
-GPU: 1.267ghz / 649 GFLOPs

again, this is the same chip that is IN EVERY current Switch model and has been since 2019.


Let us assume Nvidia and Nintendo are designing the new console, let us also assume the WORST CASE SCENARIO possible, and that is that Nintendo uses an SoC that is merely double as performant as the Tegra X1+
Basically we are assuming that since 2019, the best Nvidia has to offer now, or in 1 to 2 years when the Switch 2 will release, is a chip that is 2x as powerful.
That would instantly mean 1.3 TF of GPU power and most likely way more performant CPU cores.

so in this worst case scenario we see that the Switch 2 would "only" reach Xbox One S (yes S not FAT) GPU performance
This is of course if Nintendo would use this Worst Case Scenario Chip at it's full speeds available, but still...

So worst case we will probably see a Switch 2 with the GPU power of an Xbox One S, with more modern features than the One S, and a better CPU than the One S.
This would still be below the Steam Deck tho of course.
but remember, this is the worst case possible imo... any wiggle-room above that and that 1.6TF Steam Deck will be very close indeed. If we get a 2.5x increase over the X1+ it would be above the Deck at 1.62TF, if the new tegra is 3x as powerful as the X1+ we are at 1.94TF and have at that point passed the PS4 in raw power.


IMO the real question will be if Nvidia and Nintendo will make use of Nvidia's newer technology with Tensor Cores and RT Cores. The inclusion of both would mean that even at a lower raster performance the Switch 2 could still keep up or even eclipse the Steam Deck in visual quality and performance.
DLSS and better RT hardware could mean games could run or look better on Switch 2 than on Steam Deck.

all of this is of course speculation, and I am in no way saying that any of this will happen, but what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to assume that there is no way that the Switch 2 would possibly reach Steam Deck levels of performance. Especially considering that Valve can not push their profit margins as low as Nintendo with it's higher production capacity and with the amount of first party games they sell every week. Mario Kart 8 hasn't left the top 20 charts in what feels like a decade...

Remember, all Nvidia needs is a 3x jump in GPU power and a reasonable jump in CPU performance to easily outpace the PS4 with their SoC for the Switch 2.
as a comparison the jump from Wii U to Switch is 176GF to 393GF, a 2.2x increase in GPU performance, and that was going from a home console to a tablet sized hybrid that doesn't even use the full power of its hardware
 
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GigaBowser

Gold Member
So what? Then Steam Deck 2 or 3 will be more powerful.

Nintendo is never going to win a power war against a company that keeps reiterating new models.

The two devices are not really even in competition, one is a portable PC for a niche audience and the other is a mass market platform meant to last years.
 

baphomet

Member
mainly just depends on when it releases. this year or next, not going to reach steam deck levels. after that it's very possible.
 

20cent

Member
 

01011001

Member
mainly just depends on when it releases. this year or next, not going to reach steam deck levels. after that it's very possible.

I mean I still think a release next year could mean it is on par or more powerful. like I said in the OP, all Nintendo/Nvidia needs is a 2.5x increase in performance over the Tegra X1+ to get there. I think that is doable given that that chip was first used in 2019 and it would be almost 4 years later
 
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cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
EDIT: Not wanting to fan any fanboy flames. I'm deleting my comments.
 
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Ryu Kaiba

Member
This is, very clearly, a direct response to that other thread
I posted this in said thread as a simple comment, but I just was in the mood to make this thread about it.

Thinking that the Switch 2 could be as powerful or even more powerful than the Steam Deck is not at all unrealistic. People look at the Switch and see a system barely more powerful than the Wii U, then just assume that the jump to the new system will not reach Steam Deck levels of performance.

so 2 things about that.

1: The Steam Deck is not as powerful as many seem to think it is. The Steam Deck is less powerful in some respects than the PS4, mainly the GPU can not quite keep up with the PS4. And we are talking base PS4 here btw.
The PS4 has a 1.8TF GPU with consistent clock speeds that never change, while the Steam Deck has a 1.6TF GPU with variable clock speeds that can throttle under load.
It does have a decent CPU and enough Memory to perform very well, and it can reach 60fps in games where the PS4 could not, be it at a way lower resolution/graphical fidelity.

2: The Hardware inside the Switch is not a weak as some seem to think.
First of all it outperforms the Wii U and Xbox 360 quite a bit, either allowing for higher framerates or higher resolutions than on those consoles in similar or the same games.
All of this while also having a more modern feature set that can handle modern engines which would not even be able to run on 360 or PS3.​

But most importantly, we have to look at the actual hardware that Nvidia had available since at least back in 2019... namely the Tegra X1+, codename Mariko, which is the SoC used in all current Switch models since 2019

This Tegra X1+ could have easily been used to create a Nintendo Switch Pro, with a big boost in GPU and CPU performance, but Nintendo simply used it due to cost reduction and to have longer battery life.
How powerful is the Tegra X1+ when actually used to it's fullest? well, look at the stats below

Switch max clock speed:
-CPU: 1.02ghz
-GPU: 0.768ghz / 393 GFLOPs (max speed when docked)

Mariko Tegra X1+ max rated clock speed:
-CPU: 1.90ghz
-GPU: 1.267ghz / 649 GFLOPs

again, this is the same chip that is IN EVERY current Switch model and has been since 2019.


Let us assume Nvidia and Nintendo are designing the new console, let us also assume the WORST CASE SCENARIO possible, and that is that Nintendo uses an SoC that is merely double as performant as the Tegra X1+
Basically we are assuming that since 2019, the best Nvidia has to offer now, or in 1 to 2 years when the Switch 2 will release, is a chip that is 2x as powerful.
That would instantly mean 1.3 TF of GPU power and most likely way more performant CPU cores.

so in this worst case scenario we see that the Switch 2 would "only" reach Xbox One S (yes S not FAT) GPU performance
This is of course if Nintendo would use this Worst Case Scenario Chip at it's full speeds available, but still...

So worst case we will probably see a Switch 2 with the GPU power of an Xbox One S, with more modern features than the One S, and a better CPU than the One S.
This would still be below the Steam Deck tho of course.
but remember, this is the worst case possible imo... any wiggle-room above that and that 1.6TF Steam Deck will be very close indeed. If we get a 2.5x increase over the X1+ it would be above the Deck at 1.62TF, if the new tegra is 3x as powerful as the X1+ we are at 1.94TF and have at that point passed the PS4 in raw power.


IMO the real question will be if Nvidia and Nintendo will make use of Nvidia's newer technology with Tensor Cores and RT Cores. The inclusion of both would mean that even at a lower raster performance the Switch 2 could still keep up or even eclipse the Steam Deck in visual quality and performance.
DLSS and better RT hardware could mean games could run or look better on Switch 2 than on Steam Deck.

all of this is of course speculation, and I am in no way saying that any of this will happen, but what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to assume that there is no way that the Switch 2 would possibly reach Steam Deck levels of performance. Especially considering that Valve can not push their profit margins as low as Nintendo with it's higher production capacity and with the amount of first party games they sell every week. Mario Kart 8 hasn't left the top 20 charts in what feels like a decade...

Remember, all Nvidia needs is a 3x jump in GPU power and a reasonable jump in CPU performance to easily outpace the PS4 with their SoC for the Switch 2.
as a comparison the jump from Wii U to Switch is 176GF to 393GF, a 2.2x increase in GPU performance, and that was going from a home console to a tablet sized hybrid that doesn't even use the full power of its hardware
Thank you, this is far more reasonable than the other thread made by some 12 yr old kid screaming.

It's not just Nintendo in the picture, Nvidia is as well.

Some people have very linear ways of thinking. Rather than considering all the new variables at play they just base everything on the Wii and call it a day.

Handhelds always tend to come out more powerful than the previous gen consoles, and with DLSS it's likely the next device will punch well above it's weight.
 
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winjer

Member
The Steam Deck uses an SoC in N7 process node, with RDNA2 and Zen2.
By the time the Switch 2 comes out, in a couple of years, it can use the N3 process node. Or even the N3 Finflex, if Nintendo wants the vey best.
This means much higher transistor density, bigger chip, more units, more TFLOPs, etc.
And then it can use much more advanced CPUs and GPUs, than what the Steam Deck has today. Regardless of Nintendo sticking with nVidia or going AMD.

The idea that the Switch 2 can't be more powerful than the Steam Deck is complete non-sense from someone that doesn't understand tech.
 
This is, very clearly, a direct response to that other thread
I posted this in said thread as a simple comment, but I just was in the mood to make this thread about it.

Thinking that the Switch 2 could be as powerful or even more powerful than the Steam Deck is not at all unrealistic. People look at the Switch and see a system barely more powerful than the Wii U, then just assume that the jump to the new system will not reach Steam Deck levels of performance.

so 2 things about that.

1: The Steam Deck is not as powerful as many seem to think it is. The Steam Deck is less powerful in some respects than the PS4, mainly the GPU can not quite keep up with the PS4. And we are talking base PS4 here btw.
The PS4 has a 1.8TF GPU with consistent clock speeds that never change, while the Steam Deck has a 1.6TF GPU with variable clock speeds that can throttle under load.
It does have a decent CPU and enough Memory to perform very well, and it can reach 60fps in games where the PS4 could not, be it at a way lower resolution/graphical fidelity.

2: The Hardware inside the Switch is not a weak as some seem to think.
First of all it outperforms the Wii U and Xbox 360 quite a bit, either allowing for higher framerates or higher resolutions than on those consoles in similar or the same games.
All of this while also having a more modern feature set that can handle modern engines which would not even be able to run on 360 or PS3.​

But most importantly, we have to look at the actual hardware that Nvidia had available since at least back in 2019... namely the Tegra X1+, codename Mariko, which is the SoC used in all current Switch models since 2019

This Tegra X1+ could have easily been used to create a Nintendo Switch Pro, with a big boost in GPU and CPU performance, but Nintendo simply used it due to cost reduction and to have longer battery life.
How powerful is the Tegra X1+ when actually used to it's fullest? well, look at the stats below

Switch max clock speed:
-CPU: 1.02ghz
-GPU: 0.768ghz / 393 GFLOPs (max speed when docked)

Mariko Tegra X1+ max rated clock speed:
-CPU: 1.90ghz
-GPU: 1.267ghz / 649 GFLOPs

again, this is the same chip that is IN EVERY current Switch model and has been since 2019.


Let us assume Nvidia and Nintendo are designing the new console, let us also assume the WORST CASE SCENARIO possible, and that is that Nintendo uses an SoC that is merely double as performant as the Tegra X1+
Basically we are assuming that since 2019, the best Nvidia has to offer now, or in 1 to 2 years when the Switch 2 will release, is a chip that is 2x as powerful.
That would instantly mean 1.3 TF of GPU power and most likely way more performant CPU cores.

so in this worst case scenario we see that the Switch 2 would "only" reach Xbox One S (yes S not FAT) GPU performance
This is of course if Nintendo would use this Worst Case Scenario Chip at it's full speeds available, but still...

So worst case we will probably see a Switch 2 with the GPU power of an Xbox One S, with more modern features than the One S, and a better CPU than the One S.
This would still be below the Steam Deck tho of course.
but remember, this is the worst case possible imo... any wiggle-room above that and that 1.6TF Steam Deck will be very close indeed. If we get a 2.5x increase over the X1+ it would be above the Deck at 1.62TF, if the new tegra is 3x as powerful as the X1+ we are at 1.94TF and have at that point passed the PS4 in raw power.


IMO the real question will be if Nvidia and Nintendo will make use of Nvidia's newer technology with Tensor Cores and RT Cores. The inclusion of both would mean that even at a lower raster performance the Switch 2 could still keep up or even eclipse the Steam Deck in visual quality and performance.
DLSS and better RT hardware could mean games could run or look better on Switch 2 than on Steam Deck.

all of this is of course speculation, and I am in no way saying that any of this will happen, but what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to assume that there is no way that the Switch 2 would possibly reach Steam Deck levels of performance. Especially considering that Valve can not push their profit margins as low as Nintendo with it's higher production capacity and with the amount of first party games they sell every week. Mario Kart 8 hasn't left the top 20 charts in what feels like a decade...

Remember, all Nvidia needs is a 3x jump in GPU power and a reasonable jump in CPU performance to easily outpace the PS4 with their SoC for the Switch 2.
as a comparison the jump from Wii U to Switch is 176GF to 393GF, a 2.2x increase in GPU performance, and that was going from a home console to a tablet sized hybrid that doesn't even use the full power of its hardware


IF THIS IS WAR YOU WANT THEN WAR YOU SHALL GET.
 
The Switch 2 won't be more powerful EVEN if there is the tech to support it. Nintendo have simply never cared about the power race. And why should they? The Switch came out underpowered for its time and sells gangbusters.

People always seem to forget that Nintendos hardware is never designed for power, even if they could.

It'll be a mobile chipset that's capable of PS4 graphics at 1080p handheld and maybe a slightly better resolution docked.

It'll run then current games with ports that cut things out and tamper with resolution and we'll be in the same situation as we are now.

They will have it as a baseline level around PS4 simply because that's what they'll be able to get away with using the weakest chipset available.

But Steam Deck power on a machine that will both be mega portable, mass produced and designed to be family friendly and affordable? That's pure delusion.

It's time that Gaf just gives up with this fight. I won't stop and I'll win the argument.

Better Gaf just gives in now then realises how much I was correct when Switch 2 comes out.
 
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winjer

Member
The Switch 2 won't be more powerful EVEN if there is the tech to support it. Nintendo have simply never cared about the power race. And why should they? The Switch came out underpowered for its time and sells gangbusters.

People always seem to forget that Nintendos hardware is never designed for power, even if they could.

It'll be a mobile chipset that's capable of PS4 graphics at 1080p handheld and maybe a slightly better resolution docked.

It'll run then current games with ports that cut things out and tamper with resolution and we'll be in the same situation as we are now.

They will have it as a baseline level around PS4 simply because that's what they'll be able to get away with using the weakest chipset available.

But Steam Deck power on a machine that will both be mega portable, mass produced and designed to be family friendly and affordable? That's pure delusion.

It's time that Gaf just gives up with this fight. I won't stop and I'll win the argument.

Better Gaf just gives in now then realises how much I was correct when Switch 2 comes out.

That is only true if technology was static.
By the time the Switch 2 releases, there will be much better tech both in process nodes, and in GPU/CPU performance.
Nintendo won't have to use the best tech at the time, to handily beat the Steam Deck.
 
That is only true if technology was static.
By the time the Switch 2 releases, there will be much better tech both in process nodes, and in GPU/CPU performance.
Nintendo won't have to use the best tech at the time, to handily beat the Steam Deck.

So you think that a baseline cheap mobile chip set will automatically beat Steam Deck at a price that is family friendly for a mega portable machine?

I'm sorry but I just don't see it. I think they will purposely avoid using anything that could do that.
 

winjer

Member
So you think that a baseline cheap mobile chip set will automatically beat Steam Deck at a price that is family friendly for a mega portable machine?

I'm sorry but I just don't see it. I think they will purposely avoid using anything that could do that.

Of course you don't see it. You don't understand tech.

By2023 nVdia will release Atlan, it's new SoC. This will be nVidia's newest and greatest SoC.
But Nintendo doesn't even need to use Atlan to beat the Steam Deck.
All it needs is the current nVidia SoC, Orin. Which will be old tech in 2024-2025.
By the time the Switch 2 releases, Orin will be the equivalent to the Tegra X1 of the Switch 1. Meaning it's the old SoC, using the previous generation tech.

Orin has 2048 Cuda Cores, and 64 Tensor Cores.
This means 4 TFLOPs of compute power. And it can use DLSS with it's tensor units.
 
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Of course you don't see it. You don't understand tech.

By2023 nVdia will release Atlan, it's new SoC. This will be nVidia's newest and greatest SoC.
But Nintendo doesn't even need to use Atlan to beat the Steam Deck.
All it needs is the current nVidia SoC, Orin. Which will be old tech in 2024-2025.
By the time the Switch 2 releases, Orin will be the equivalent to the Tegra X1 of the Switch 1. Meaning it's the old SoC, using the previous generation tech.

Orin has 2048 Cuda Cores, and 64 Tensor Cores.
This means 4 TFLOPs of compute power. And it can use DLSS with it's tensor units.

Sure I'll agree that this makes sense.
 
I’d laugh my ass off if Nintendo just release the 4DS as the successor to the Switch after all this.
It's very fucked that Nintendo could drop the Switch and start something entirely new and different.
Please God, Switch 2, Super Nintendo Switch, Switch Pro SOMETHING advancing the regular Switch's capabilities. PLEASE, lol.
 

winjer

Member
Because even if all the logic makes sense, since when has Nintendo ever followed logic with how they run their business?

So your reasoning is that Nintendo won't even follow the logic they used to make the original Switch?

Nintendo used a Maxwell based SoC, at a time when nVidia already had released Pascal.
Why wouldn't Nintendo use an Ampere based SoC a couple of years from now?
This would follow the exact same logic. Using a cheaper, older SoC, for it's newest console.

But here is the twist. Orin uses Ampere. By the time the Switch 2 releases, Ampere will be 2 generations old.
Ada Lovelace will release in Fall 2022. So in a couple of years, the old tech is Ada Lovelace, which is more powerful than Ampere.
 
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So your reasoning is that Nintendo won't even follow the logic they used to make the original Switch?

Nintendo used a Maxwell based SoC, at a time when nVidia already had released Pascal.
Why wouldn't Nintendo use an Ampere based SoC a couple of years from now?
This would follow the exact same logic. Using a cheaper, older SoC, for it's newest console.

But here is the twist. Orin uses Ampere. By the time the Switch 2 releases, Ampere will be 2 generations old.
Ada Lovelace will release in Fall 2022. So in a couple of years, the old tech is Ada Lovelace, which is more powerful than Ampere.

Hmm yeah I see that. If the Steam Deck starts eating up Nintendo's marketshare I can see this happening. Your saying the lowest chipset they could use would therotically be more powerful than a Steam Deck. Sure. I'll bite.
 

winjer

Member
Hmm yeah I see that. If the Steam Deck starts eating up Nintendo's marketshare I can see this happening. Your saying the lowest chipset they could use would therotically be more powerful than a Steam Deck. Sure. I'll bite.

The Steam Deck is not that powerful. It's a N7 chip, made at a time when TSMC is already making N3.
It's using RDNA2, when RNDA3 is just around the corner. And it's using Zen2, when Zen4 is also around the corner.

By 2024-2025, anything can beat the Steam Deck, very easily. Be it form AMD or nVidia.
The idea that in 2024-2025 Nintendo can't build a cheap Switch2, that is several times more powerful that the current Steam Deck, is utter non-sense.

In 2024-2025, N3, Ada Lovelace, Zen4, RDNA3, will all be old tech. And they will all be much more advanced than the Steam Deck of today.
 
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scydrex

Member
If by that time you can get a more powerful hardware and the cost is less than $300 and sell it for $300 and gain profit then sure. Nintendo will do it. Nintendo sells consoles with profit at launch.
 
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winjer

Member
The real question is not if the Switch 2 will be more powerful than the Steam Deck. The question is how many times more powerful, will the Switch2 be, than the Steam Deck.
 

TrebleShot

Member
No Nintendo are not interested in making powerful hardware, they don't need to and if anything to go by the proof is in the market.

- Most people play switch handheld
- Most people are happy with the level of innovation in switch games
- 4K 60 is not a target for Nintendo
- Mobile games require less investment of time, therefore the level of in depth systems etc isn't as high.

It will be less powerful than people imagine and will likely be tiny increment on the current power level, more ram, slightly faster etc.
The real innovation will come with the hardware experience which I think is extremely smart who needs another shooter/fifa box.
 
Pretty sure Nvidea loves the Switch money and wont want it to dry out, so I am sure that they will be pushing Nintendo to go bigger and better. Simple logic really..
 

Kokoloko85

Member
I’d laugh my ass off if Nintendo just release the 4DS as the successor to the Switch after all this.

Wouldn’t be surprised. Nintendo will try and keep the power in the same range as they have since the GC/WII/WIIU/Switch. Minimal improvement between each system.

Its gonna be interesting to see how they do next gen. They’ve ported 90% of their stuff, so they are gonna have to make alot more new games and if they tech is stronger they are gonna have to make games that don’t look like they belong on PS3 era in alot of ways.

If its not portable its gonna fail hard
 

SoggyBiscuit

Gold Member
I seriously have my doubts, it runs counter to Nintendo's hardware philosophy which is repurposing old tech in creative ways. I expect whatever Nintendo puts out next will no doubt still be in the hybrid console format and likely more powerful than the gen 1 Steam Deck, but I don't think it'll match Valve's next hardware output. Especially given the rising costs and shortages of components we've been seeing.
 

Tams

Member
Honestly, what I hope, or rather dream of, is Nintendo going with a dock that has an eGPU, or rather an option.

I can see why they didn't with the Switch. eGPUs have been a torid mess that the average person would not put up with, and only recently have Asus managed to make some not waste about half their performance (something Nintendo just wouldn't pay for).

What I envision is games that are identical except for graphical fidelity. And then a range of docks with different GPUs (or APUs, or SoCs). That way you could just have a dock with just fans that can give some boost to performance, or go baller and spit out 4k/8k/1billionk.

Competitive games could have framerate locks to prevent pay to win.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
I can see Nintendo actually making a very powerful Switch 2 just as a big fuck you to some people.
Then they’ll lock the one specimen in their vault and proceed to release a barebones Switch 3 for the mass market.
 
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