Dick Jones
Gold Member
I'd have no issue getting any type of head off herShes your #1? You want her for her status or you have a forehead fetish.
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Can people please understand that Switch 2 COULD be more powerful than Steam Deck?!
BlackTron
Member
Would that be a DS that can travel through time
Definitive port of Chrono Trigger?
Rykan
Member
It is, but that's comparing the entry model to the Premium model of the Switch.
The difference between the Switch entry model and SD entry model is 200$. The difference between Switch's premium model and Deck's Premium model is 300$. Considering the age of the hardware and the fact that the Switch price hasn't come down, its likely that Nintendo holds a much larger profit margin on Switch hardware than Valve does for Steam deck.
Steam Deck doesn't have a docked mode, though. I don't think it would be crazy for a device to hit 15W in a dock.
Also Nvidia is already competitive with AMD for performance per watt on an inferior process (8nm). So on 5nm say, they should have a big advantage.
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hinch7
Member
You really think Nintendo is going with a cutting edge processor and node? Highly doubt that.. A customized/cut down Jetson Orin NX on 6/7nm is probably what we can realistically expect and that should line up with similar performance as the Steam Deck in an <15W device - on max theoretical clocks. And that's being highly optimistic. Besides we haven't really seen how well Ampere performs in real 3D applications and games in ultra low power SOC's yet.
Nintendo will also clock it on the lower end of the spectrum to save on battery. The NX for example uses a customized Tegra X1 and runs at lower clocks and ~6W docked.
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winjer
Member
With the original Switch, Nintendo choose to go with the second best. At the time nvidia already had Pascal on the market, at 16nm. This was basically 20nm, but with FinFets
But Nintendo went with Maxwell 2.0 GPU, at 20nm. But mind you that the on PC, Maxwell 2.0 was made in 28nm.
If the a Switch 2, was to be released now. I would think that they would use 6nm. Maybe even N5, which is not the most advanced node of 2022. It's the second best.
The most advanced node for 2022 is N3, for Samsung and TSMC. In fact, Samsung is already producing chips in N3 with GAA.
But if the Switch 2 releases in 2024-2025, like some rumors point to. By that time, N3 will be the second best node.
Another thing to consider is that Ampere is the second best architecture in 2022. Ada Lovelace releasing in this Fall.
But in 2024-2025, the second best architecture, will be Ada Lovelace.
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5 nm won't be cutting edge in 2023/2024 when 3nm is ramping up. When the Switch launched on 20nm in 2017, it was only one process behind the 16nm process used for "cutting edge" PC GPUs.
Anyway, I agree we should expect similar performance at 7nm for 15W, if Nintendo can hit that in docked mode ā with less in portable mode. But I think in docked mode it could still end up "technically" faster, depending on how Ampere competes with RDNA 2 at 7nm/6nm.
winjer
Member
Samsung Begins Chip Production Using 3nm Process Technology With GAA Architecture
Optimized 3nm process achieves 45% reduced power usage, 23% improved performance and 16% smaller surface area compared to 5nm process
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I wonder how much more it costs to design and then manufacture chips in that process and what kind of volumes they are talking aboutā¦ also after Apple and the other phone makers finish eating their giant quota haha.Samsung Begins Chip Production Using 3nm Process Technology With GAA Architecture
Optimized 3nm process achieves 45% reduced power usage, 23% improved performance and 16% smaller surface area compared to 5nm processnews.samsung.com
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
N3 in high volumes? Who is pushing complex N3 based SoCās in high volumes or has major designs on it ready to ship in high volumes this year? Once I see iPhobe shipping with it in volume yes and a few months later when others get on it too.
Right now realistically Nintendo would ship with N7+ or N6 or well with whatever their SoC supplier has. The Switch is unmodified Tegra (with some cores turned off in software I think), so it is not like they pushed the project in any particular direction, it was good enough.
I kinda agree that it isn't that necessary. One of the reasons folk want a Switch 2 is so that they could get some ports of the AAA third party games or at least the majority of the AA games.
I kinda of hope that they wait until like early 2025 before they release the next switch. They will have tons of games in 2023. Have 2024 be their soft year and then go hard again in 2025.
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winjer
Member
Apple will probably be the first to use N3. As usual.
Rykan
Member
In theory yes but this kinda ignores other factors.
You have to take Nintendo's design philosophy into account when it comes to developing hardware. It needs to be compact so it can be used by a wide range of users and it needs to be quiet. So there's not much wiggle room for cooling. It also needs to be affordable. Yes, newer chips will help in some regard but its unlikely to bridge the gap between Steamdeck and the new Switch.
There's another factor at play though: Nintendo will want the handheld experience to be as close as possible as the TV experience, with only resolution being the major difference. Nintendo is just unlikely to invest into a significant hardware boost, especially since it has little competition.
REDRZA MWS
Member
Expecting power or real tangible technological hardware progress from Nintendo only leads to disappointment. Theyāll give you slightly more power and some other bs gimmick. They get away with it because they make great games. Fuck Nintendo. Iām never buying their outdated shit hardware again as a firewall to their games.
Tams
Gold Member
Yep, N3 isn't ready for mass production yet. If all goes to plan, the iPhone 15 will use it though.
If I recall correctly, there were reports that Apple and Intel have bought up all the N3 capacity (only TSMC offering it soon), which leaves N5 largely taken up by AMD, Qualcomm, and Nvidia, plus some others. So that leaves N6/7 that are going to start to free up too.
Tams
Gold Member
- They are their games. You or I have no right that they publish them elsewhere.
- Keeping their games exclusives gets hardware (consoles and accessories) sales. All of which they are profitable on from day 1. A profitable games company is one that will stay around and not be bought up.
- Less so with the Switch, but by making their own hardware they can push some types of gameplay that requires certain hardware. Accessories have been tried many, many times and have worked exactly zero times in the long run. Hopefully the PSVR2 will be a change from that, but I have my doubts.
rubenburgt
Member
I would love to see a more powerful switch, but I doubt it will really be more powerful than the steam deck.
Nintendo knows they don't have to try hard thanks to their dedicated fan base, and they probably want to keep the cost low so parents and children are more enticed to buy it.
Nintendo knows they don't have to try hard thanks to their dedicated fan base, and they probably want to keep the cost low so parents and children are more enticed to buy it.
hinch7
Member
5N is expensive and AMD/Nvidia/Qualcomm would have already booked those orders in for them. 3N is out of the question in 2023/2024. Unless Nintendo are releasing this in 2024/2025 this is rather unlikely.
Nintendo nearly always go for mature, readily available processes due to cheaper cost and availability.
For arguments sake lets say Nintendo does go for 5N they'd have to compete for wafers over the other tech giants and suffer from major shortages. When they could just go with older processes that aren't being taxed up.
REDRZA MWS
Member
Yeah, all obvious points. Believe me, Iām not even trying to publish their games. Iām saying Iāll never buy Nintendo hardware ever again, so UNLESS their games are on other platforms, out in those too.
winjer
Member
You probably didn't read the news that TSMC has excess production.
Or that nvidia paid in advance for a big share of TSMC's N5, but now the market demand has fallen drastically. So they tried to get back some money, by reducing the allotted production. But TSMC refused.
Apple Supplier Warns of 'Excessive Chip Inventory'āNo, Really
TSMC cites softening demand in PCs, smartphones, and other consumer segments.
gizmodo.com
The days when every chip would sell instantly to miners or people working from home, are over.
In a curious twist of fate, after 2 years of chip shortage, we are in for a chip oversupply.
During these last 2 years, TSMC could increase prices as they wished. But that is no longer the case.
In might be even worse, as Samsung managed to overtake TSMC to the 3nm GAA production. So now Samsung is a strong competitor against TSMC.
TSMC is set to start the N3 volume production in H2 2022.
hinch7
Member
You probably didn't read the news that TSMC has excess production.
Or that nvidia paid in advance for a big share of TSMC's N5, but now the market demand has fallen drastically. So they tried to get back some money, by reducing the allotted production. But TSMC refused.
Apple Supplier Warns of 'Excessive Chip Inventory'āNo, Really
TSMC cites softening demand in PCs, smartphones, and other consumer segments.
The days when every chip would sell instantly to miners or people working from home, are over.
In a curious twist of fate, after 2 years of chip shortage, we are in for a chip oversupply.
During these last 2 years, TSMC could increase prices as they wished. But that is no longer the case.
In might be even worse, as Samsung managed to overtake TSMC to the 3nm GAA production. So now Samsung is a strong competitor against TSMC.
TSMC is set to start the N3 volume production in H2 2022.
Its only rumors that Nvidia tried to cancel some of that 5N allocation due to oversupply. Them and their partners are sitting on top of a lot of unsold GPU's. If anything TSMC and their customers reducing capacity is bad for the rest of the industry seeing as Apple have first dips on their latest nodes. Don't forget these chips are going to be even more expensive as TSMC are raising prices on top.
In any case, expecting Nintendo to go anywhere near top end and TOTL components isn't going to happen. Nintendo aren't going to create $450 portable powerhouse with the latest fab technologies when they are in for the profit. Just look up their history and hardware choices for their portable and consoles. What you are expecting totally goes against their design ethos - which they have largely stuck to all these generations Gunpei Yokoi - Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology
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winjer
Member
If you look at my posts, I said Nintendo would go for second best.
At this moment, AIBs and stores are pressuring nvidia to delay the RTX 4000 launch, so they can clear inventory.
But on the other hand, nvidia's stocks have fallen 50% already. Shareholders won't be happy if the RTX 4000 isn't released for the Holidays season, to boost revenue and profits.
But the thing is, all these tech companies were banking on the crypto craze to continue for a while longer. And that the constrains with covid would not end as soon as they did.
Like TSMC already admitted publicly, there is an oversupply. Demand is much lower now. And it's probably going to get even lower, seeing how inflation is sky high in most countries. And energy prices are increasing significantly.
So TSMC is going to have to cut prices. Just like other producers of chips are already doing. For example, NAND and memory companies are already preparing to lower prices even further.
Tams
Gold Member
Your loss.
StateofMajora
Banned
Just to point out, with Wii U, Nintendo used the process 45/40nm, when 32nm, and 22nm were a thing.
To add to this, if Nintendo goes 100% third party, using Sega as an example, say goodbye to all of their games except Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda, and Pokemon - with diminished quality of the first 3 since they can't release them "when they're ready" anymore.
Kataploom
Member
Not sure if you've all seen this, but Digital Foundry stated "some kind of supersampling" on what they think is a "360p to 540p internal resolution" on Xenoblade 3... Did someone already open a thread? I'm too lazy to put a summary right now but I think this is great confirmation for Nintendo next consoles if power is such a concern (not timemarked, btw):
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StateofMajora
Banned
Great confirmation of what? It's just temporal upscaling, you can do that on base Xbox one even.
Kataploom
Member
From 360p-540p to 1080p? Cool, show me the games
StateofMajora
Banned
John said 540p docked, so it doesn't hit 360p docked, first of all.
I don't think an Xbox one game renders as low as 540p, honestly.
What is this confirmation of? What are you even arguing for lol
Kataploom
Member
They're probably using FSR 2.0 or DLSS, which means Nintendo is currently using it for their next games given that Nintendo Switch Sports also has some kind of supersampling.
Are there any other example at the level of 540p > 1080p rescaling being done on last gen consoles? Why hasn't it being done on Switch?
This is clearly an evolution on their development capabilities if it's just being done now... Unless you have some proof it's always being like this and Nintendo and other devs on the Switch just decided to omit it?
StateofMajora
Banned
It's not dlss because it requires tensor cores and would look a lot better than it does.
540p with temporal upscaling looks like 540p but with much cleaner edges, it's not going to come close to native 1080p. Not even dlss from native 720p to 1080p looks like native 1080p.
The reason Xenoblade 3 looks better than 2 is because 2 uses one of the absolute worst TAA solutions in existence.
What they're doing here is not magic, they need dlss on switch 2 and even then native resolution is still importantm
Mister Wolf
Member
Monolith Soft are using their own temporal upscaler native to their in house game engine. They were already utilizing TAA with Xenoblade 2. From temporal antialiasing in 2 to temporal upscaling in 3. They are the most forward thinking developer at Nintendo.
Romulus
Member
I do like that they make their hardware easily emulated. The Switch 2 will likely be just as easy. We'll be playing their games at higher frames and resolution a few months after release. Steam Deck 2 will run them along with PC.
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Mister Wolf
Member
I would say their 540p temporal upscaled to 1080p in 3 looks better than the 720p native resolution of XB2 and XBX.
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Kataploom
Member
Well, there it is, Nintendo is most probably designing their next console using temporal scaling as a core feature. No matter if it's Monolith own tech or based on another third party tech, the thing is that Nintendo is clearly focusing a lot on that kind of tech.
I think base PS4 (which is lower than I expect) console with modern a feature set and using that rescaling will already punch above or same than SD, given the games are more optimized for system.
StateofMajora
Banned
Xenoblade 2 yes, because like I said the taa is horrible there, one of the worst.
X, no X is sharper. 3 will look cleaner though.
StateofMajora
Banned
I mean yeah, it's good software is evolving, but I'm just saying it doesn't confirm anything for the next hardware.
I wouldn't worry though, dlss should be a guarantee for switch 2. Dlss really does look great nowadays, the only problem is ghosting which I hope can be solved on version 3.
Overall, switch 2 will be more capable than base ps4 no doubt.
darkangel-212559
Dreamcast Love
People need to stop posting in this thread. It was made to be my rival. The fact is Nintendo stopped with the power race with the Gamecube. That dream is dead.
It's time to accept reality and side with me in this thread WAR.
It's time to accept reality and side with me in this thread WAR.
Interfectum
Member
DLSS, smaller form factor and battery life
Woopah
Member
The leaked specs so far indicate that it would be able to perform on par or better than the deck (though we only have part of the story from the Nvidia leak, we don't know clock speeds or anything about the CPU).
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Because the super awesome hyrule warriors needs a bit more performance to really shine.
Topher
Gold Member
Battery life isn't a given though is it? Increased power means more power draw.
Miles708
Member
When that disaster pokemon game sells millions?
I really don't think so.
Topher
Gold Member
Aren't newer chip technologies cheaper to make though? At some point, keeping that older tech alive is more cost prohibitive from what I've heard others say.
Tams
Gold Member
It really depends on demand. Some nodes last a long time.
28nm and 16nm have been amongst the most proliferent. As they became more mature, other components that aren't as reliant on better silicon technology move to them. That also means that the cost remains low for those who want to remain on those nodes.
Really, it's all about demand.