Support NeoGAF

[In Cold Blood]

First off I guess the question should be "can' Sony switch to Direct X and still keep backwards compatibility with previous generations?

Secondly, would it be wise for Sony to look at doing it?
Microsoft has really pushed DX12 to the forefront of PC game development. With the introduction of the GDK they have made it alot easier for developers to make the game on both Xbox and PC at the same time. This integration will mean that the PC and Xbox will be the lead platform instead of PS.
We also saw Microsoft get deep in bed with AMD with the development of RDNA 2 architecture, and I would expect this to continue into the future.
Direct RT, Direct ML, VRS, SF, Direct Storage, Mesh Shaders was done together, while Sony was forced to work their own solutions, giving them less of these features in the PS5.
Nvidai also fully supports DX for those same functions.

If Sony did adopt DX it would help them with hardware support from AMD, help them with making sure any multiports are not second Rate and will help devs with not having to work on a separate Sony solution as well.

I'm sure Sony could have both their own and Direct X APIs in the PS6, and I am sure Microsoft would let them use Direct X.

What think ye?

 

[feynoob]

It could be another ps3. Their current system is working good.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Developers love GNM. It's already lower overhead than cross platform APIs, which is possibly part of why it seems less portable at the same time (MS has less issues messing with clocks and exacting specifications).

I don't see that they would, nor particularly why they should apart from more ease in bringing in PC ports, but PS is already often a lead platform

 

[Paulxo87]

No/No

 

[DForce]

Sony is doing fine without it.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Shaders gonna shade. Compilers gonna compile.

 

[gooner4life_uk]

DirectX is not as good as Sony's Graphics API's

 

[Black_Stride]

If a dev wants DirectX like API the PS5 has AGC(X).
If they want to go closer to the metal they have AGC.

Why would Sony want to leverage another API when their low level API works better than DirectX and their highlevel API is basically an equivalent to DirectX?

 

[lh032]

I prefer Mark Cerny certified API

 

[Crayon]

Spit out the Kool aid. We could drop dx12 for vulkan and nothing of value would be lost.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

But why tho?.

 

[diffusionx]

DirectX has been around since 1995. Sony has done fine without it since then so what’s the point. If anything DirectX is less dominant on PC than it was 10-20 years ago, thanks to Vulcan and Linux gaming.

 

[KingT731]

Why go backwards??

 

[ReBurn]

Sure why not?

 

[Thirty7ven]

This is not how console development goes. The idea is idiotic.

 

[iamvin22]

Ever heard of the ICE team? Look them up and hold their beers

 

[In Cold Blood]

But why tho?.

So my reasoning is this. With a common PC and Xbox development GDK which will leverage Direct X 12 specific features like Mesh Shaders, SFS, Direct Storage, VRS, Direct ML etc developers may push those benefits which might not be available on PS. If Sony has everything the same as PC and Xbox it will make things more streamlined.

 

[Moses85]

 

[8BiTw0LF]

So my reasoning is this. With a common PC and Xbox development GDK which will leverage Direct X 12 specific features like Mesh Shaders, SFS, Direct Storage, VRS, Direct ML etc developers may push those benefits which might not be available on PS. If Sony has everything the same as PC and Xbox it will make things more streamlined.

 

[Topher]

Imagine Sony voluntarily being dependent on Microsoft's SDK and APIs. And wouldn't that require PlayStation to run Windows or some compatibility layer like Proton anyway?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

So my reasoning is this. With a common PC and Xbox development GDK which will leverage Direct X 12 specific features like Mesh Shaders, SFS, Direct Storage, VRS, Direct ML etc developers may push those benefits which might not be available on PS. If Sony has everything the same as PC and Xbox it will make things more streamlined.

I remember a conversation with an Xbox fanboy time ago. He said MS was better because they invented office and Direct X.

Until this day, I haven't see the benefits of that.

 

[Lex Tenebris]

From a business stand point they should change their API if the PC gaming space is/will be important for them. Their pc ports are subpar and take more resources, like an entire dedicated studio, to make the port. MS thanks to GDK make both versions with less troubles, but indeed they can extract a little less power from the consoles hardware. So instead of directx they should opt for vulkan and build their own gdk style environment, symply because directx is also tied to the windows kernel iirc and it'sclosed source. The power left on the table is negligible for the average user, but it will cost them way less in the long term.
From a technical stand point, as many already said, their API is already good enough, probably the best for a console. Still they should improve the shift to future iterations, it's anachronistic that still there are issues while playing old games on the new hardware, more than issues, which probably are few and with minor consequences, old games should use all the new features, that are not tied to the new API, almost out of the box, at least those that don't require an engine rework. Use half of the gpu or the cpu at a fixed clock or don't use the ssd at its full potential must change in the future. In that regards better have a more versatile API than one that use the hardware to it's limit and than give issues to port games to PC or when play games on future console. I bet that the talented studios under the wing of Sony will still make great looking games.

 

[MasterCornholio]

What do you think Sonys ICE team is for?

Ever heard of the ICE team? Look them up and hold their beers

Glad I'm not the only one thinking this.

 

[marquimvfs]

Every feature available in DirectX can work or is already on PS5, besides, DirectX is Windows dependent. I don't see the point of relying on Microsoft for an different layer of O.S. (Windows instead of Linux) that might only bring extra complications and lack of freedom.

 

[Black_Stride]

From a business stand point they should change their API if the PC gaming space is/will be important for them. Their pc ports are subpar and take more resources, like an entire dedicated studio, to make the port. MS thanks to GDK make both versions with less troubles, but indeed they can extract a little less power from the consoles hardware. So instead of directx they should opt for vulkan and build their own gdk style environment, symply because directx is also tied to the windows kernel iirc and it'sclosed source. The power left on the table is negligible for the average user, but it will cost them way less in the long term.
From a technical stand point, as many already said, their API is already good enough, probably the best for a console. Still they should improve the shift to future iterations, it's anachronistic that still there are issues while playing old games on the new hardware, more than issues, which probably are few and with minor consequences, old games should use all the new features, that are not tied to the new API, almost out of the box, at least those that don't require an engine rework. Use half of the gpu or the cpu at a fixed clock or don't use the ssd at its full potential must change in the future. In that regards better have a more versatile API than one that use the hardware to it's limit and than give issues to port games to PC or when play games on future console. I bet that the talented studios under the wing of Sony will still make great looking games.

They would be unnecessarily gimping their console versions if they use something that isnt as low as AGC.
Now as Sony why would you use a higher level API for your titles to make porting them to a secondary market easier?

Think about that.

So my reasoning is this. With a common PC and Xbox development GDK which will leverage Direct X 12 specific features like Mesh Shaders, SFS, Direct Storage, VRS, Direct ML etc developers may push those benefits which might not be available on PS. If Sony has everything the same as PC and Xbox it will make things more streamlined.

Their current APIs are very low level APIs, why use a higher level API for development.
Anything that the metal can do, a low level API will be more efficient at utilizing it.
And for devs who dont want to go that low there has always been an X version of Sonys APIs that are effectively DirectX like wrappers over the low level API.

There is no benefit to Sony using DirectX.

 

[Lex Tenebris]

I remember a conversation with an Xbox fanboy time ago. He said MS was better because they invented office and Direct X.

Until this day, I haven't see the benefits of that.

Well maybe office doesn't offer many benefits, even if it is the de facto standard to create end edit documents worldwide, as much as adobe suite is for images. For the gamers maybe it's not relevant, but still. Some will argue that Ms imposed that, but if it is still relevant is simply because the rivals where not good enough and still aren't.
Instead directx it's what helped the PC games industry to become what it is. maybe you don't remember, but in the past, APIs where a mess that maybe just worked with one vendor, right now a PC is like a more advanced console from an API point of wiev, a developers still have some work to do to make the software compatible with many configurations, but way less as if they should make it compatible with 3 or more API and thousands of hardware configurations. Also old games, where there aren't other complications, play as they should with every iteration of the API or with any change the user apply to the hardware, using it at almost it's full potential, at least it is perceivable even if the software can't see new functionalities.
Directx also thanks to directcompute makes easy to use gpu acceleration for tasks outside of gaming space and is vendor agnostic.
So will still be in the same or better status quo without office and Directx? Maybe! but it is what it is, and is undeniable that now we are in a better situation than before.

 

[Lex Tenebris]

They would be unnecessarily gimping their console versions if they use something that isnt as low as AGC.
Now as Sony why would you use a higher level API for your titles to make porting them to a secondary market easier?

As I said, we don't know how much is or will be important for them the PC game space. Right now is important enough to buy a development studio which is specialised in pc ports to free up original developers from the port duties, or pay an external developer to do so, so it's always a matter of costs, which a gdk style API will, in part, solve.
I repeat, from a business standing point, it make sense.
Gimping their console version is a nonsense. If tomorrow they change their API, the look and fell of new games will be the same to the gamers eyes, you will not see a ps4 like graphic, it's more about the visual presentation. And you will not feel maybe a 3 to 8% of overhead.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

There's so much absurd ignorance in this thread, it literally hurts to read this shit.

Short answer: No.

Long-answer: Don't be so absurd!

DX offers nothing that Sony's GNM doesn't already do (and in some cases faster). Next time educate yourself before writing this ignorant drivel on the forum.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

AFAIK PlayStation OS (or whatever it's called) runs on a high customized FreeBSD. So no, they can't just slap DirectX on there. I think they'd also have to pay MS royalties for this?

 

[gothmog]

Well maybe office doesn't offer many benefits, even if it is the de facto standard to create end edit documents worldwide, as much as adobe suite is for images. For the gamers maybe it's not relevant, but still. Some will argue that Ms imposed that, but if it is still relevant is simply because the rivals where not good enough and still aren't.
Instead directx it's what helped the PC games industry to become what it is. maybe you don't remember, but in the past, APIs where a mess that maybe just worked with one vendor, right now a PC is like a more advanced console from an API point of wiev, a developers still have some work to do to make the software compatible with many configurations, but way less as if they should make it compatible with 3 or more API and thousands of hardware configurations. Also old games, where there aren't other complications, play as they should with every iteration of the API or with any change the user apply to the hardware, using it at almost it's full potential, at least it is perceivable even if the software can't see new functionalities.
Directx also thanks to directcompute makes easy to use gpu acceleration for tasks outside of gaming space and is vendor agnostic.
So will still be in the same or better status quo without office and Directx? Maybe! but it is what it is, and is undeniable that now we are in a better situation than before.

This is some kind of AI, no?

 

[Black_Stride]

As I said, we don't know how much is or will be important for them the PC game space. Right now is important enough to buy a development studio which is specialised in pc ports to free up original developers from the port duties, or pay an external developer to do so, so it's always a matter of costs, which a gdk style API will, in part, solve.
I repeat, from a business standing point, it make sense.
Gimping their console version is a nonsense. If tomorrow they change their API, the look and fell of new games will be the same to the gamers eyes, you will not see a ps4 like graphic, it's more about the visual presentation. And you will not feel maybe a 3 to 8% of overhead.

I see you have no idea what you are talking about.

The low level API version of a game, especially in the hands of Sonys own devs will always be the superior version of the game.
Which means logically a high level API version of that same game is gimped in comparison.

Sure to the end user you have no idea what API is being used, but to the devs who have to go through a wrapper or translation layer, they will know that this bullshit is adding frametime for no good reason and will likely beg Sony to give them a low level API to work with so they can extract the most from the hardware they have been given.

This topic isnt about end users however, it is about the devs.
If a dev wants to use high level API Sony already provides a wrapper to their low level API and it is similar to DirectX.
Third party devs who have to release on all platforms likely use the high level API which is how they can achieve something much closer to parity and release across all platforms day and date.
Sonys first party devs have to show off the Playstation in the best possible light, we cant expect them to purposely be leaving performance and features on the table by using a wrapper layer.

 

[In Cold Blood]

Another factor is that with Sony publishing their own first party games on to PC, they are having to convert all their engines and games to Direct X anyway. They have done it with a number so far.
Might as well just keep it all DX12.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Another factor is that with Sony publishing their own first party games on to PC, they are having to convert all their engines and games to Direct X anyway. They have done it with a number so far.
Might as well just keep it all DX12.

I would imagine BC would be easier if they didn't change APIs. That definitely could be one of their reasons for not changing. After all it might not be a ton of work to just port it to PC later.

 

[Three]

The question has some merit in terms of being able to do quicker PC ports with less bumps along the way but the less people who support directX and switch to vulkan or some other open API the better. Supporting other API means better hardware and OS support.

 

[kainslayer]

First of all why Sony would pay Ms for dx,also dx was made by Ms and Nvidia...kinda AMD played catch up.dx is not the answer of your game problems.things can be done differently with other apis also maybe better or worse I'm not a dev just a hardware enthusiast....stay off the Microsoft console propaganda....and don't be a brand loyalist...it's a lesson most of us learned by throwing our money to marketing bullshit just because...anyway have a good day bro

 

[Skifi28]

Could use me some shader compilation stutter on playstation, can't get enough of that on PC!

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Might as well just keep it all DX12.

Sure, if you want Microsoft Windows to be the only platform for games. No competition going forward - One Operating System to rule them all.

Still haven't seen what all that Mesh, VRS, Direct, SFS and so on do for Xbox consoles. Right now Playstation 5 is the console with the best looking games overall.

Also, open source FTW!!

 

[Black_Stride]

Could use me some shader compilation stutter on playstation, can't get enough of that on PC!

Why would the Playstation need to compile shaders, does the game not know its going to be played on a Playstation so it doesnt come shipped with the shaders?

 

[Skifi28]

Why would the Playstation need to compile shaders, does the game not know its going to be played on a Playstation so it doesnt come shipped with the shaders?

It was a joke

 

[nocsi]

Vulkan or Metal would be better. Otherwise you might as well demand Microsoft teams and zune support

 

[Black_Stride]

Vulkan or Metal would be better. Otherwise you might as well demand Microsoft teams and zune support

Im honestly surprised Sonys doesnt use Vulkan for their PC ports.

 

[TrebleShot]

Fucking hell no.
Sony has its own graphic rendering toolset and it’s better than that junk.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Sony's custom API's are the last real bastion of control they have over their consoles, now they are basically just small form factor PC's, and what helps them punch above their weight in terms of hardware specifications. There will be an awful lot of painstakingly developed custom code that simply will not work in the Direct X envoirement, so why re-invent the wheel.

 

[kyliethicc]

no

 

[Raonak]

Why would they use a higher level api? DX isn't even multiplatform as something like vulkan which runs on Linux too.

It would make more sense for them to create a custom version of vulkan because their devs need full control of the architecture if they were to go balls deep on PC.

 

[lostinblue]

DirectX is not a good "API", at some point it was hideous to work with and devs wanted it gone, then newer versions started adopting everything vulkan was doing along with the lower overhead and started to be less of an issue.

It's still not "good" and about the same as suggesting some console manufacturer who's not Apple should adopt the Metal API...

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

But why tho?.

 

[winjer]

DirectX belongs to Microsoft, not to Sony. And MS does not license it to a rival company.

Also, DirectX is just an API. It's not the hardware.
Sony and Nintendo can buy hardware from Intel, nvidia and AMD, then create it's own API and use the exact same feature set.
Or they can ask for custom hardware with features that suit their needs.

 

[azertydu91]

So my reasoning is this. With a common PC and Xbox development GDK which will leverage Direct X 12 specific features like Mesh Shaders, SFS, Direct Storage, VRS, Direct ML etc developers may push those benefits which might not be available on PS. If Sony has everything the same as PC and Xbox it will make things more streamlined.

Weren't you the same guy that said the the ps5 could not do FSR 2.0?Maybe wait for features to reach fruition instead of regurgitating PR technobable.You said it yourself they might not be on ps5 just as they might be (like the fsr you were adamant could not be on ps5 or at least couldn't as early as Xbox) but on another name.
Like mesh shaders and primitive shaders, vrs and a similar feature in the geometry engine, direct storage which I don't think is really necessary except on windows operating machine since their file system is like 30 years old etc...
So just ask yoursel why would sony uses MS tools to devellop their games?

 

[blastprocessor]

Interesting question given most of their games will be on PC anyway.