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Social Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

Loki

Count of Concision
Jun 6, 2004
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Freedom doesn't mean having the right to put other people's lives in danger.


You don't need to ask yourself that. We have seen this before. America lost its collective mind 20 years ago with the draconian and freedom-killing initiatives known as the war on terror and the Patriot Act, which are unprecedented, unjustified, and much worse than vaccine mandates (which have precedent).

The difference was that 9/11 "only" killed 2000 people. COVID19 is killing that many people every 3 days.

Again, you (and the rest of the sky is falling crowd) and I have a very different definition of what constitutes "danger" - that is, what level of risk/danger warrants certain social restrictions. And our COVID situation TODAY is simply not sufficiently dangerous to warrant the governmental/social overreach we're seeing. You and folks like you are of the mind that if we all aren't double vaxxed with a booster (or are we up to a second booster now? No, wait, that's in a few months), we are basically walking around blindly swinging a machete, endangering those around us. No. Get a grip. Never in the history of the world have we reacted to something with this level of threat with such a hysterical overreaction.

Your 9/11 analogy (which you've employed before) is not apt, as voluntary acts can't be compared to viruses or, say, natural disasters. They are very different in their features and relevant legal considerations. It's not simply about how many people something/someone kills which informs the societal response to said event/actor.

EDIT: And by the way, I do believe that our response to 9/11 was excessive - both in terms of the liberties lost at home as well as the war in the ME - but more importantly, it was not a properly targeted response. So even if you feel your analogy holds, it doesn't hold for me, as I felt we overreacted there too.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
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Again, you (and the rest of the sky is falling crowd)

You and authoritarians like you
Tell me how you really feel.

I am an authoritarian because I want to ensure the best quality of life and safety for the citizens of my community and making sure they have the freedom to resume life as normal by giving them access to as many protections as possible?

I am an authoritarian because I take to heart the principles of the Declaration of Independence and wish to ensure the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for as many citizens as possible? Can't pursue happiness or liberty if you're dead or in lockdown.

I am an authoritarian because I hate the Patriot Act and War on Terror that shits all over the United States Constitution and provisions in it like the 4th amendment?

I am an authoritarian because I'm fine with a vaccination policy that is both already widely implemented in our school system and has been for decades, while also being approved by the Supreme Court of the United States?
 

Loki

Count of Concision
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Tell me how you really feel.

I am an authoritarian because I want to ensure the best quality of life and safety for the citizens of my community and making sure they have the freedom to resume life as normal by giving them access to as many protections as possible?

I am an authoritarian because I take to heart the principles of the Declaration of Independence and wish to ensure the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for as many citizens as possible? Can't pursue happiness or liberty if you're dead or in lockdown.

I am an authoritarian because I hate the Patriot Act and War on Terror that shits all over the United States Constitution and provisions in it like the 4th amendment?

I am an authoritarian because I'm fine with a vaccination policy that is both already widely implemented in our school system and has been for decades, while also being approved by the Supreme Court of the United States?

Note that I edited my "authoritarian" comment, as I felt on reflection that it was out of line. Note also that people already have the freedom to resume normal life - neither you nor the government "grant" people freedoms. They are inalienable, except in the most extreme of circumstances (which, again, our situation right now does not rise to the level of). I believe your comments on the War on Terror were made before my edit; I largely agree with you there.

Re: talking about school vaccinations, there are many important distinctions which are glossed over when you try to lump what is going on today in with stuff like mandatory polio/MMR vaccines. Namely:

- The fact that the diseases vaccinated for affect all age cohorts fairly equally, with some affecting children disproportionately (thus, the risk/benefit calculation changes) - this is in stark contrast to COVID, which presents a vanishingly small risk for children.

-
The fact that the vaccines in question have several decades worth of efficacy and safety data behind them, in contrast to the COVID vaccines.

-
The vaccines in question use technology which, again, has 70+ years of data behind it, not 11 months' worth of data like the COVID vaccines.

- The fact that none of the vaccines you cite were made mandatory for anything (e.g. to attend school, much less for socialization or employment) when they were first introduced, as they are trying to do with the COVID vax - this only occurred after many years of safety and efficacy data were obtained and they were deemed sufficiently safe to "mandate."

Further, school mandates were enacted legislatively (i.e. by legislatures - specifically by state legislatures, who have purview in such matters), not by executive fiat; thus it more accurately represented the actual will of the majority of people. Interestingly, I've also never been asked about ANY other vax by any employer I've worked for, any venue/restaurant I've visited, or any event I've attended. Yet that is exactly what is being advocated for here; thus, the encroachment upon liberty is that much greater. Lastly, vaccine mandates are not uniform across states, and a majority of states (with a few exceptions) allow for medical and religious exemptions, in contrast to what we're seeing when these same exemptions are sought by folks for COVID vaccines.

Sorry, I will agree to disagree. I've said my piece. I don't believe that COVID represents a sufficiently existential threat to warrant the measures being proffered - nay, decreed.
 
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FunkMiller

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I would dearly love it if some people in here would take a look at governments and societies outside the USA. The constant, never-ending, tiresome diatribe about how the US government is some evil entity that wants to take your freedoms away comes from a place of profound ignorance about what a lot of other countries in the world are actually like.

The very idea that the US is sliding into some sort of authoritarian state because it wants people to get vaccinated against a dangerous disease is absolutely ludicrous. I really do despair of the warped vision some Americans have of the rest of the world, and their country's place in it, by comparison.

America is, and will always be, a nation with abundant, never-ending and intrinsic freedoms, written into its foundations. It is profoundly idiotic to actually believe that asking you to take a vaccine to stop vulnerable people getting covid is in some way taking away your rights or liberties. And it's equally moronic to believe that America is in any way similar in any respect to actual authoritarian states across the world.
 
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sinnergy

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Covid is here to stay , people need to change and accept this ! Winter lock downs will be the norm . 🤡 Even with vaccinated reaching 85%, it’s actually 50% so not enough for herd immunity.
 
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Loki

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I would dearly love it if some people in here would take a look at governments and societies outside the USA. The constant, never-ending, tiresome diatribe about how the US government is some evil entity that wants to take your freedoms away comes from a place of profound ignorance about what a lot of other countries in the world are actually like.

The very idea that the US is sliding into some sort of authoritarian state because it wants people to get vaccinated against a dangerous disease is absolutely ludicrous. I really do despair of the warped vision some Americans have of the rest of the world, and their country's place in it, by comparison.

America is, and will always be, a nation with abundant, never-ending and intrinsic freedoms, written into its foundations. It is profoundly idiotic to actually believe that asking you to take a vaccine to stop vulnerable people getting covid is in some way taking away your rights or liberties. And it's equally moronic to believe that America is in any way similar in any respect to actual authoritarian states across the world.

I take issue with your language, as it soft pedals what is actually occurring here. For example, you say (all emphasis mine):

The very idea that the US is sliding into some sort of authoritarian state because it wants people to get vaccinated...

No one - least of all me - opposes government wanting to get people vaccinated, and advocating for it. What I oppose are vaccines being mandated in order to participate in normal, every day activities or to retain or procure employment.

The very idea that the US is sliding into some sort of authoritarian state because it wants people to get vaccinated against a dangerous disease is absolutely ludicrous.

As previously noted, you (and the rest of the Nervous Nellies) and I define "danger" differently. Saying something is "dangerous" used to actually mean something which was commonly understood - it used to be a binary term. If you told someone that something was dangerous, it meant that it posed a substantial risk to one's health and safety. I don't think COVID as it exists now rises to that level. I'd more accurately call COVID "mildly dangerous" for most people (certain cohorts excluded, obviously).

It is profoundly idiotic to actually believe that asking you to take a vaccine to stop vulnerable people getting covid

Again, no one takes issue with them "asking." But that's not what's being done here. What's occurring is naked coercion and fiat. Call it what it is at least, if we're to have an honest discussion.
 

FunkMiller

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No one - least of all me - opposes government wanting to get people vaccinated, and advocating for it. What I oppose are vaccines being mandated in order to participate in normal, every day activities or to retain or procure employment.

Every democratic government across the whole world mandates that its citizens have to do things, upon penalty of removal of rights (or removal of employment) if they transgress. All of them. All of the time. For decades, if not centuries, in some cases.
 
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betrayal

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So what? If 100% people were vaccinated the virus can spread all it wants, you will not have many people hospitalized. How is that different than the common cold you can get vaccinated against each year?

Sure, that's true, at least for younger/healthier folks, but i don't think you can really compare the common flu with a virus which requires 1-2 booster shots per year.

You may be okay with rolling lockdowns, and semi permanent social distancing and masking, but the majority of us want normality to return or continue. I don't know if UBI is tenable but I can guarantee that if you try and bring it in through the back door like this it will be a complete failure. You need to try and soften your liberal beliefs with a little reality, because most of us have to live in the real world.

I never said that I think lockdown and restrictions are okay. Personally, I am absolutely not a fan of such restrictions.



Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people here? Has everyone forgotten how to talk about things without always thinking in strict black and white or drawing some stupid conclusions and condemning people directly for just stating experiences or even facts?

For me it is simply about a discussion and an exchange of opinions and not about who is for or against the vaccination or any restrictions.
 
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Cyberpunkd

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Yeah, yeah - miss me with the "b...b...but 5 million deaths!" Not trying to minimize anything, but let's be realistic. 5M dead over the course of ~22 months for the entire world. 75-80% of those are folks over 75 years of age with multiple comorbidities.
5 million after all the restrictions, vaccinations and multiple lockdowns. This could have easily been 100 million if everyone said fuck it, let's just YOLO because muh freedoms.

As for 'let's just let old folks die' mentality - not that I disagree (since old people have a tendency of being egoistic dicks due to everyone always rolling over for them, see old fols that decided over young generation for the UK to quit EU when they will not be the ones suffering the consequences), but this kind of mentality smells to me like the US 'sorry you got cancer and have to spend 200k to survive, better luck next time!'.
 
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The Pleasure

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Just the tip, baby!
 

QSD

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That's fucking ridiculous. Their 7 day average death toll is 11. Their hospitalisations are 487. The vaccinations are doing their job perfectly.

They're insane.

This doesn't count deaths among leprechauns. Traditionally leprechauns are strongly opposed to vaccination, and without them the irish economy is screwed.
 

BadBurger

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Never in the history of the world have we reacted to something with this level of threat with such a hysterical overreaction.

Your parents and grandparents calmly and rationally took vaccines to stamp out polio and smallpox. In the current pandemic's case, civilization was able to produce numerous vaccines in a very short amount of time. If the vast majority had maintained their rationality as your parents and grandparents did and taken the vaccine(s) as soon as they could, COVID-19 would be something in our rearview mirror already.

Unfortunately, people like you essentially reacted like this and continue to do so, trapping us all with you in your perpetual cycle of anti-science, prayer warrior recklessness, calling others authoritarians and alarmists for merely asking people to do simple things like wear a mask and take a vaccine.
 

Liljagare

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Sweden instating C19 passes as cases surge, public gatherings at 100 included as a start..

Personally I think letting up on restrictions in october was just to let society have a breather, and more lockdowns will surface towards christmas.
 
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Tams

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5 million after all the restrictions, vaccinations and multiple lockdowns. This could have easily been 100 million if everyone said fuck it, let's just YOLO because muh freedoms.

As for 'let's just let old folks die' mentality - not that I disagree (since old people have a tendency of being egoistic dicks due to everyone always rolling over for them, see old fols that decided over young generation for the UK to quit EU when they will not be the ones suffering the consequences), but this kind of mentality smells to me like the US 'sorry you got cancer and have to spend 200k to survive, better luck next time!'.
I hate to break it to you, but quite a lot young people still voted to leave the EU.

And at the risk of getting political here, while it's not looking rosey it's also not looking so bad with how the EU are handling the Belarus/Poland issue. Or the French deciding to stop using the same shade of blue as the EU on their national flag
 

Cyberpunkd

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I hate to break it to you, but quite a lot young people still voted to leave the EU.

And at the risk of getting political here, while it's not looking rosey it's also not looking so bad with how the EU are handling the Belarus/Poland issue. Or the French deciding to stop using the same shade of blue as the EU on their national flag
You were saying? https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

Also as a Pole I can tell you right now Poland is mishandling this crisis in a truly legendary way, perfectly in line with incompetence of the party in power since 2015. If you can run this via Google Translate it's a pretty accurate commentary on the clusterfuck that the Polish government created: https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onet...-polskiej-dyplomacji-analiza/ryh9b4p,79cfc278
 
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Tams

Member
You were saying? https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

Also as a Pole I can tell you right now Poland is mishandling this crisis in a truly legendary way, perfectly in line with incompetence of the party in power since 2015. If you can run this via Google Translate it's a pretty accurate commentary on the clusterfuck that the Polish government created: https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onet...-polskiej-dyplomacji-analiza/ryh9b4p,79cfc278
That's still 27% or 38% who did vote for it. And no age group has any more say than any other (as it should be). Further, young people are the most likely to change their political views within, say, a decade, as they are new to the world of politics and what they believe in regard to it. You're saying that their views will not change.

So you want them to just let the migrants through? I mean fair enough, many of them just want to get to Germany anyway, lol (seriously, there's videos of them telling reporters exactly that). But that just isn't sustainable and if allowed will just lead to more migrants trying and eventually European countries getting fed up and racial conflict happening.

Your government are utter cunts for many other reasons, but stopping these migrants is not one of them.

And to keep it on topic just a little; is it really wise to be letting a load of people travel such distances with COVID cases increasing across Europe (and the world)?
 
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Cyberpunkd

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That's still 27% or 38% who did vote for it. And no age group has any more say than any other (as it should be). Further, young people are the most likely to change their political views within, say, a decade, as they are new to the world of politics and what they believe in regard to it. You're saying that their views will not change.

So you want them to just let the migrants through? I mean fair enough, many of them just want to get to Germany anyway, lol (seriously, there's videos of them telling reporters exactly that). But that just isn't sustainable and if allowed will just lead to more migrants trying and eventually European countries getting fed up and racial conflict happening.

Your government are utter cunts for many other reasons, but stopping these migrants is not one of them.

And to keep it on topic just a little; is it really wise to be letting a load of people travel such distances with COVID cases increasing across Europe (and the world)?
There was a great article about the pensioneer class in the UK - basically due to the way the system is structured they gain at least 2.5% per year on their pension (they can gain more, but this is the bare minimum). Add to the fact they are overwhelmingly real estate owners with mortgages paid off. Now these people make a choice of how the lives of young people will turn out - yes, in democracy every vote counts the same. Still rubs me the wrong way. You can make a case young people should have gotten off their asses and voted - and you would be right as well.

As for Poland - the point of the article I linked was simple: nobody picks up the phone in Minsk, Moscow when Warsaw is calling. Poland has allienated themselves totally from the East, and speaking to the West is more and more difficult. If relations were better Merkel would have called Polish President to at least agree on talking points regarding Lukashenka - nothing of this sort happened. That is a sad state of affairs.

As for 'letting the migrants through' - there are 4 000 of them freezing in the forest east of Poland, a country of 38mln can take them in. If they don't want to - that's fine, propose a plan to give them food, water, make them survive the cold nights. As a Pole I can tell you not a single government official even mentioned preparations being made for this.
 
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FunkMiller

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There was a great article about the pensioneer class in the UK - basically due to the way the system is structured they gain at least 2.5% per year on their pension (they can gain more, but this is the bare minimum). Add to the fact they are overwhelmingly real estate owners with mortgages paid off. Now these people make a choice of how the lives of young people will turn out - yes, in democracy every vote counts the same. Still rubs me the wrong way. You can make a case young people should have gotten off their asses and voted - and you would be right as well.

All through the non stop whining from young people about the Brexit vote, I liked to remind of the fact only 64% of them voted, whereas as 90% of over 65s did.

It would have just taken another 1 or 2% of the lazy sods to get off their arses and vote, and the whole thing would have been completely different.
 

Clear

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All through the non stop whining from young people about the Brexit vote, I liked to remind of the fact only 64% of them voted, whereas as 90% of over 65s did.

It would have just taken another 1 or 2% of the lazy sods to get off their arses and vote, and the whole thing would have been completely different.

Older people remember when the UK was not part of the EU, through the evolution and expansion of the EU to its present state. That's a radically different perspective to people for whom EU membership has always been a thing, and one that I'd argue is vastly more motivating!

Its why the media characterizing anyone pro-leave as a xenophobe was such an own-goal.

The same thing applies to vaccine mandates, you don't deal with people's misgivings on such massive political actions by labeling them all as evil or stupid!
 

FunkMiller

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Older people remember when the UK was not part of the EU, through the evolution and expansion of the EU to its present state. That's a radically different perspective to people for whom EU membership has always been a thing, and one that I'd argue is vastly more motivating!

Its why the media characterizing anyone pro-leave as a xenophobe was such an own-goal.

The same thing applies to vaccine mandates, you don't deal with people's misgivings on such massive political actions by labeling them all as evil or stupid!

Vaccine mandates are nothing like the Brexit vote.

One was the decision to leave a political and trading bloc. The other is to prevent an ongoing public health crisis. Priorities and aims are completely different.

A salient argument can be made for decoupling from a political project with issues surrounding sovereignty, trading independence, and democratic rights.

There is no good argument whatsoever against ensuring a population takes a safe and effective vaccine against a virus that endangers its citizens.
 

Clear

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Vaccine mandates are nothing like the Brexit vote.

One was the decision to leave a political and trading bloc. The other is to prevent an ongoing public health crisis. Priorities and aims are completely different.

A salient argument can be made for decoupling from a political project with issues surrounding sovereignty, trading independence, and democratic rights.

There is no good argument whatsoever against ensuring a population takes a safe and effective vaccine against a virus that endangers its citizens.

You're missing my point. Forget about the issues and their merits and instead consider the strength of feeling.

Name-calling doesn't change hearts and minds, it just entrenches the argument when the topic is deeply held.

I don't see this as being political, its basically the same as forum interactions except the stakes are way higher. I could come back to your position and rip on you, rather than discuss in good faith. And the truth is if done right I could score points in terms of social credit with people who already share my perspective, but it'd just piss you off and make you and everyone on your side of the argument think I'm a cunt!

I might "win" the interaction (or you, if positions were switched) but the argument hasn't advanced and the division has widened.

I'm just saying, especially with deeply held beliefs, be they matters of soverignity and representation, or bodily autonomy and fundamental liberty, name-calling isn't going to cut it. Its just storing resentment for the future.
 
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FunkMiller

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You're missing my point. Forget about the issues and their merits and instead consider the strength of feeling.

Name-calling doesn't change hearts and minds, it just entrenches the argument when the topic is deeply held.

I don't see this as being political, its basically the same as forum interactions except the stakes are way higher. I could come back to your position and rip on you, rather than discuss in good faith. And the truth is if done right I could score points in terms of social credit with people who already share my perspective, but it'd just piss you off and make you and everyone on your side of the argument think I'm a cunt!

I might "win" the interaction (or you, if positions were switched) but the argument hasn't advanced and the division has widened.

I'm just saying, especially with deeply held beliefs, be they matters of soverignity and representation, or bodily autonomy and fundamental liberty, name-calling isn't going to cut it. Its just storing resentment for the future.

Anti-vaxxers are pretty fucking dumb though, eh?
 

Clear

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Anti-vaxxers are pretty fucking dumb though, eh?

Depends on your definition. People generally paranoid about vaccines need help, but having misgivings about vaccine passports is 100% legitimate in my opinion. As is questioning why Merriam-Webster chose to widen the definition of "anti-vaxxer" to encompass both categories.

Bottom line, if your opinion isn't nuanced, irrespective of which side you fall on, I suspect you're in need of looking at the subject with a more critical eye. This is a very complicated issue in every dimension, medical, political, ethical, you name it. So while I make no claims of being an expert in any of those fields it strikes me that there's a lot of evidence and argument to unpack before approaching what constitutes a truly informed lay opinion.
 

poppabk

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FunkMiller

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Depends on your definition. People generally paranoid about vaccines need help, but having misgivings about vaccine passports is 100% legitimate in my opinion. As is questioning why Merriam-Webster chose to widen the definition of "anti-vaxxer" to encompass both categories.

Bottom line, if your opinion isn't nuanced, irrespective of which side you fall on, I suspect you're in need of looking at the subject with a more critical eye. This is a very complicated issue in every dimension, medical, political, ethical, you name it. So while I make no claims of being an expert in any of those fields it strikes me that there's a lot of evidence and argument to unpack before approaching what constitutes a truly informed lay opinion.

If someone refuses to take what has been proved time and time again to be a safe and effective vaccine: selfish dumbass.

If someone whines about the idea of vaccine mandates, but doesn’t also complain about every other rule and regulation our governments mandate us with: hypocritical dumbass.

If someone both gets the vaccine, and accepts that some mandates must be introduced to tackle all the selfish and hypocritical anti-vax dumbasses: a fabulous and upstanding human being.
 
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The Fartist

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If someone refuses to take what has been proved time and time again to be a safe and effective vaccine: selfish dumbass.

If someone whines about the idea of vaccine mandates, but doesn’t also complain about every other rule and regulation our governments mandate us with: hypocritical dumbass.

If someone both gets the vaccine, and accepts that some mandates must be introduced to tackle all the selfish and hypocritical anti-vax dumbasses: a fabulous and upstanding human being.
 

poppabk

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Has anyone here had their booster vaccine recently? I had Maderna yesterday and I've been up all night feeling awful with fever and aches etc. The first and second vaccine I had was AstraZeneca and that was even worse.🤢🤮🤧
I got my third Pfizer on Monday. My first shot I was fine. After the second I felt like absolute shit for the next 24hrs with a temp of 102. Third was pretty much the same. I seem to have had a stronger immune system reaction than most, I have decided to consider this a good sign even though there is apparently no correlation just because I don't want to think I had those shitty days for nothing.
 
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SpiceRacz

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Has anyone here had their booster vaccine recently? I had Maderna yesterday and I've been up all night feeling awful with fever and aches etc. The first and second vaccine I had was AstraZeneca and that was even worse.🤢🤮🤧

Had my Pfizer booster last Thursday. All I did was sleep for 2 days. Also was experiencing muscle spasms like I did with the first 2 doses, but they were more aggressive this time around. My lymph node in my armpit was also swollen for a few days and that was pretty painful.
 
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I got my third Pfizer on Monday. My first shot I was fine. After the second I felt like absolute shit for the next 24hrs with a temp of 102. Third was pretty much the same. I seem to have had a stronger immune system reaction than most, I have decided to consider this a good sign even though there is apparently no correlation just because I don't want to think I had those shitty days for nothing.
My first vaccine I felt like death for a week with mild covid symptoms (I've had covid19 before for seven weeks) and the second vaccine didn't affect me at all. The booster has been pretty terrible though.
 
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COVID winding down? Time to unleash smallpox!

I find it unsettling knowing that state funded secret facilities are located all over world, harbouring some of the most dangerous chemicals/diseases known to mankind.

I remember watching a documentary on the BBC about a secretive biological and chemical weapons test facility called Porton Down based in the UK. Obviously they only showed limited amounts of footage and information.
 

poppabk

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I find it unsettling knowing that state funded secret facilities are located all over world, harbouring some of the most dangerous chemicals/diseases known to mankind.

I remember watching a documentary on the BBC about a secretive biological and chemical weapons test facility called Porton Down based in the UK. Obviously they only showed limited amounts of footage and information.
I don't think this is the case here though. Just stuff that has been sat in a freezer since before smallpox was eradicated and thus became a big deal. That is why it's both hilarious and scary.
 
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BadBurger

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This is frightening:


I'm going to try to schedule my third shot now. I may be able to get it through my employer even though I don't have underlying conditions or anything.
 
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DragoonKain

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Nov 13, 2013
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This is frightening:


I'm going to try to schedule my third shot now. I may be able to get it through my employer even though I don't have underlying conditions or anything.
Do you live in the US?

If so, you can just pop in to any CVS or Rite Aid, you don't need an appointment.
 

12Goblins

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COVID winding down? Time to unleash smallpox!

lmao...how could this shit possibly leak out

my fav was when the US military was accidently shipping that shit all over the place. anthrax too irc...
 

Thaedolus

Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Do you live in the US?

If so, you can just pop in to any CVS or Rite Aid, you don't need an appointment.
This is correct. I just went to my local pharmacy and asked for the booster and while they did ask if I was a healthcare worker or whatever I just told them I had a condition on the list and that was all it took.