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Social Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

Rentahamster

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It doesn’t matter. 100% safe and effective doesn’t even make it ok to mandate others do what you want.
Yes it does, when it prevents a literal plague on civilization.

It's been Constitutionally settled precedent for over a hundred years. George Washington did it. We mandate things like seat belts and car insurance even though traffic fatalities kill far less people than than COVID19.

It's what happens when you live in a society and have to balance individual autonomy with the betterment or preservation of all the people in it.
 
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Dr.Guru of Peru

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Video is out of context. 75% of vaccinated deaths had four comorbidities. To be more specific, they had 4 of the underlying chronic medical conditions:

The second photo you posted gets brought upon time and time again. Pneumonia and sepsis are not "comorbidities" in the sense that most lay people think of comorbidities. They are additional diagnoses listed on death certificates and directly a result of COVID19. These aren't chronic pre-existing conditions. People aren't walking around with chronic sepsis and then catching COVID, for example. Read the fine print - only 5% of death certificate solely listed COVID19, and this was attributed to lack of detail on the part of the person filling out the certificate.
 
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Rentahamster

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Two doses of the vaccine offers very limited protection, if any. 3 doses with a booster offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths. Less protection against infection.
No, two doses of the vaccine still offer protection, compared against not being vaccinated at all.


 

Rentahamster

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This is not a refutation. Relatively speaking, 2 doses is limited versus the 3 dose. But it's better than nothing.

Just saying "2 doses is limited!" full stop - is misleading because it doesn't offer the full context. Please keep in mind relative effectiveness and the difference between that and absolute effectiveness. 2 doses less effective than 3 doses, but better than zero doses. 2 doses and 3 doses are absolutely effective.
 
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arkhamguy123

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Yeah I'm provax all the way but as disheartening as it is I think we'd all be hard pressed to not admit they kinda suck at preventing actual infection like other vaccines. It is what it is. But ""breakthroughs"" seem to be as common as cutscenes in a Naughty Dog game. Like these first generation vaccines simply aren't great at all with cutting transmission.
 

arkhamguy123

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I think this is why theres been a big pivot to the two (very, very important) metric of deaths and hospitalizations. You seldom hear talk about not catching it because of the vaccine nowadays. It's changed to a "well, you'll get it but it won't be as bad" which is tremendously phenomenal for the elderly and anyone at risk but for someone younger who covid never really posed a threat to it's admittedly pretty lame sad to say.
 

Rentahamster

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Yeah I'm provax all the way but as disheartening as it is I think we'd all be hard pressed to not admit they kinda suck at preventing actual infection like other vaccines. It is what it is. But ""breakthroughs"" seem to be as common as cutscenes in a Naughty Dog game. Like these first generation vaccines simply aren't great at all with cutting transmission.
Relative to other vaccines, they don't suck at all. They do fairly well. No vaccine is 100% effective at preventing infection, except for maybe the HPV vaccine.

Keep in mind one of the reasons so many of the older vaccines seem so effective is because they have around 90% uptake in the population due to everyone getting them as children.
 
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arkhamguy123

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Relative to other vaccines, they don't suck at all. They do fairly well. No vaccine is 100% effective at preventing infection, except for maybe the HPV vaccine.

Keep in mind one of the reasons so many of the older vaccines seem so effective is because they have around 90% uptake in the population due to everyone getting them as children.
Well I get that but it seems like covid breaks through with such ease it'd wager at this point they gotta be under 50% effective at cutting transmission. Generously. This is anecdotal I'll admit I'm not up on the studies like I used to be but so many people I know personally and I read about online covid has no problem what so ever infecting through the vaccines.
 
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Jsisto

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What’s a little confusing to me about all this talk about vaccine efficacy is they never seem to take time into account, they just speak in general terms. When did you get your second dose? When did you get your booster? If I hypothetically got my second Pfizer shot a month ago, I probably don’t yet need a booster, no? I feel like they could do a better job explaining all this in ways that people can understand. Now I realize this is all happening in real time, but the message has kind of gotten very muddied at this point, especially as more shots are being introduced.
 
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Rentahamster

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Well I get that but it seems like covid breaks through with such ease it'd wager at this point they gotta be under 50% effective at cutting transmission. Generously. This is anecdotal I'll admit I'm not up on the studies like I used to be but so many people I know personally and I read about online covid has no problem what so ever infecting through the vaccines.
Even 50% prevention is fantastic. Viral respiratory diseases spread exponentially, so 50% makes a huge difference down the line, when you do the math.

Look at NY.




The difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated cases is huge. Even with acknowledging the fact that a lot of vaccinated people probably won't get tested because they won't even feel anything.

But again, like I said a few posts up, even if the vaccine didn't do anything regarding infection, the fact that it reduces your chances of dying by 90% is more than enough reason to get it. Even among young people. The chance of severe illness or death is very small for young people, but over a population of 8 billion people, that adds up to a lot of unnecessary deaths. You don't want to end up being a statistic.
 

Clear

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Video is out of context. 75% of vaccinated deaths had four comorbidities. To be more specific, they had 4 of the underlying chronic medical conditions:

The second photo you posted gets brought upon time and time again. Pneumonia and sepsis are not "comorbidities" in the sense that most lay people think of comorbidities. They are additional diagnoses listed on death certificates and directly a result of COVID19. These aren't chronic pre-existing conditions. People aren't walking around with chronic sepsis and then catching COVID, for example. Read the fine print - only 5% of death certificate solely listed COVID19, and this was attributed to lack of detail on the part of the person filling out the certificate.

The high prevalence of Pneumonia is suggestive of Delta strain infection, no?

Its unfortunate that its obviously practically impossible to do full sequencing on each patient's specific infection(s). Because if, as multiple sources indicate, Omicron is displacing Delta we're looking at a highly volatile picture.

Its why I lean towards stats from regions where the Delta wave peaked first, because it gives the least confused picture in terms of judging how things are going to develop as we move towards Omicron peak.
 

Rentahamster

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What’s a little confusing to me about all this talk about vaccine efficacy is they never seem to take time into account, they just speak in general terms. When did you get your second dose? When did you get your booster? If I hypothetically got my second Pfizer shot a month ago, I probably don’t yet need a booster, no? I feel like they could do a better job explaining all this in ways that people can understand. Now I realize this is all happening in real time, but the message has kind of gotten very muddied at this point, especially as more shots are being introduced.
I dunno who "they" is, but the information is out there and quite clear.

If you're fully vaccinated with 2 doses of mRNA, get your booster shot around 4-6 months after your second shot, possibly sooner if you have immune problems.

Just ask your doctor. It's what most people should be doing rather than consulting Facebook.
 

Jsisto

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I dunno who "they" is, but the information is out there and quite clear.
If you're fully vaccinated with 2 doses of mRNA, get your booster shot around 4-6 months after your second shot, possibly sooner if you have immune problems.

Just ask your doctor. It's what most people should be doing rather than consulting Facebook.
I'm talking about the experts they have on TV. I haven't seen this topic broached much. This is anecdotal of course. Keep in mind millions of people in America don't have a primary care doctor, and also tend to get their news from social media, a lot of which is video snippets from cable news. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality we live in. So just “ask your doctor” honestly isnt an option for some.
 
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Rentahamster

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I'm talking about the experts they have on TV. I haven't seen this topic broached much. This is anecdotal of course. Keep in mind millions of people in America don't have a primary care doctor, and also tend to get their news from social media, a lot of which is video snippets from cable news. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality we live in. So just “ask your doctor” honestly isnt an option for some.
It is unfortunate. If it wasn't clear to a lot of people before, this pandemic has really shown what a disaster health care is in the United States. On average we pay more and get less. It's no surprise every other first world country in the world approaches their health care differently than we do.
 
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Jsisto

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can you be anymore dishonest
This kind of goes hand in hand with what I was talking about too. In the video, the CEO of Pfizer is saying two shots has little to no effect. That's not taken out of context, that's what he said. I got my two shots, work in retail with a crew of over 100 employees that sees over 2000 customers a day. It's also an incredibly small store for that volume. I didn't get sick until omicron, and I can't remember anyone getting sick at the height of Delta. For the ceo of Pfizer to say two shots has little to no effect is incredibly irresponsible in my opinion and just makes people want to throw their hands up into the air and say F IT! It's incredibly clear two shots has significant impact!
 

daveonezero

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Yes it does, when it prevents a literal plague on civilization.

It's been Constitutionally settled precedent for over a hundred years. George Washington did it. We mandate things like seat belts and car insurance even though traffic fatalities kill far less people than than COVID19.

It's what happens when you live in a society and have to balance individual autonomy with the betterment or preservation of all the people in it.
This is a fallacious argument. Who says and decides what a “literal plague” is. One solution I have it get out of the over crowded cities. Maybe it’s natures way of saying you are fucking up?

The social contract doesn’t exist. I don’t think federal laws should dictate those things. Cars, the oil companies and regulations ruined a lot of things.

There are no special groups that has the right to decide what to mandate or not.

I don’t care what Washington or the constitution says. You probably only bring those things up when it suits you. The whole world full of individuals has a right to choose what is and isn’t put in their body.

The constitution is not a binding contract. The Constitution has no legitimate legal authority. Clearly the government doesn’t respect the Rights of people. So why would anyone have to follow their decrees. The contract was broken a long time ago.
 

GHG

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I’m incredibly concerned about children growing up during this. The social isolation during the period of life where they should be learning social skills/making friends is bound to have some serious long term consequences as that generations grows up…

I'd argue that with the way the world was going there's a generation of kids that were going to have serious social issues regardless. It's a problem now in young adults already (early 20's). We've been trending in that direction for a while now and covid only accelerated it.
 
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Jsisto

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This is a fallacious argument. Who says and decides what a “literal plague” is. One solution I have it get out of the over crowded cities. Maybe it’s natures way of saying you are fucking up?

The social contract doesn’t exist. I don’t think federal laws should dictate those things. Cars, the oil companies and regulations ruined a lot of things.

There are no special groups that has the right to decide what to mandate or not.

I don’t care what Washington or the constitution says. You probably only bring those things up when it suits you. The whole world full of individuals has a right to choose what is and isn’t put in their body.

The constitution is not a binding contract. The Constitution has no legitimate legal authority. Clearly the government doesn’t respect the Rights of people. So why would anyone have to follow their decrees. The contract was broken a long time ago.
While I'm personally not a fan of mandating the vaccine, I feel like what you're arguing for is anarchy. At a certain point, if we live in a country with laws, we have to follow them if we want to continue to have the protections those laws provide without consequence. You can go down a nihilistic rabbit hole and say laws and constitutions don't mean anything, but continuing down that line of thinking goes to some pretty dark places I think.
 
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sw0mp_d0nk3y

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Personally, I never begin any arguments with antivaxers. I find they are the ones that always want to talk about this shit, and try to get you to watch crackpot videos that support their delusions. It may be selfish to not get the vaccine, due to increased chance of infecting others or taking up valuable space at the local hospital when you do get it, but I've been done with trying to convince anybody for 6 months now. The data continues to come in, and always supports the usefulness of vaccines, but they'll always find someone who contiues to tell them what they want to hear.

What is annoying is the antivaxer whining that happens so often about the slight inconveniences they may have like not getting to go to a restaurant or a concert or something. If you want to stick to your convictions and remain unvaccintated, good for you, toughen up and stop whining about it. People who don't give a shit about doing a simple thing to help everyone else don't get to try to make the rest of us feel sorry for them. Just shut up, endure your inconveniences, and nobody will bother you about it.
 

Jsisto

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Left-leaning media outlets continue finding new COVID info that was previously unknown. lol


edited
If only....and stop me if I'm talking crazy, but if only these news outlets had some kind of reporters and journalists that could have given us this more accurate picture a while ago. Nah forget it that doesn't make any sense.
 

12Goblins

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If only....and stop me if I'm talking crazy, but if only these news outlets had some kind of reporters and journalists that could have given us this more accurate picture a while ago. Nah forget it that doesn't make any sense.

there were. people didn't listen to them then, just like they don't listen to them now

regardless, Gupta is right on this point. anyone that tests positive in the hospital regardless of what they were admitted for will be placed (if resources allow) on a critical care floor, in negative pressure rooms, treated by staff that dons PPE, all that good stuff so the hospital is going to want to get paid. on top of that, hospitals will always bend the truth to get paid

It does conflate the numbers and it is a problem but this is something we've known for years so lets stop acting like it's some sort of revelation

edit: by God Hulk Hogan has figured it out!!!
 
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daveonezero

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While I'm personally not a fan of mandating the vaccine, I feel like what you're arguing for is anarchy. At a certain point, if we live in a country with laws, we have to follow them if we want to continue to have the protections those laws provide without consequence. You can go down a nihilistic rabbit hole and say laws and constitutions don't mean anything, but continuing down that line of thinking goes to some pretty dark places I think.
I’m not advocating anything. You are making a lot of a conclusions and conjecture.

A lot of these points are assertations and opinions.

I do know a little history and legality does not make something moral or right. Some of the words greatest crimes against humanity were legal.

Also I disagree with patronizing people and telling them what to do. It is insulting. Either they are adults and responsible for their own choices or they are not. Don’t expect people to blindly follow what you want.

If you choose to delegate your choices to someone else that is fine. Just don’t think everyone shares your strategy.
 
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Sakura

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I think most of the difference is due to two factors

1 - This is an UK graph, where the “covid now” is mostly omicron

2 - Omicron is only getting started in USA, so that 170K figure would be comparable to the “covid before” bar. With a similar reduction (3% -> 0.1%) you would only see around 9K deaths in 4 months, which is well below the bad flu season you mention.

Agreed on the fact that testing skews the CFR a lot as we don’t really test for flu.
I don't see why it would go from 170k to 9k. The 3% CFR is for the UK last winter (more specifically December 2020). The US's CFR last winter was less than 2%.
The CFR for that 170k is about 0.8%. Even if we just look at the last month for the US, we've got a CFR of a little over 0.3% but still 40k deaths. CFR is going to be skewed by the amount of testing done, it isn't the greatest proof of the lethality of the virus.
 
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sinnergy

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I'd argue that with the way the world was going there's a generation of kids that were going to have serious social issues regardless. It's a problem now in young adults already (early 20's). We've been trending in that direction for a while now and covid only accelerated it.
Look at all those kids that grew up in WW2 and rebuild the world , that all went terrible .. relax .. it mostly adults that over think .. do your best to teach them your self .. they will learn a lot from you , and when schools are open , teachers will teach other stuff. all will be fine. The problem is people don’t know how to balance the life we live now ..
 
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Left-leaning media outlets continue finding new COVID info that was previously unknown. lol


edited
This is the kind of stuff people brought up from the beginning. How to classify stuff.

And depending on the person and agenda, it can be all over the place.

You can already see it now in way. When every city says the latest covid count is xxxxx number of people, that really means nothing since the majority of people even with covid arent exactly rolled up like a ball screaming in pain from covid. Only a tiny number are hit hard with illness or even death. Most people will get over it and barely feel the effect as if it's a common cold. I was sick recently too over the holidays for a bit. It might had been covid. Big deal I was sick for 3 days and back to normal. If I was part of the daily covid count, it'd make it sound like I'm on my deathbed when in reality all I did was I slept more and didn't leave my house for 3 days.

I know many people who've been sick, and many of us (like me) assume it's probably due to covid. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Number of people in serious hospital pain, or dead from it. Zero. So right there, covid is batting probably 0-20.

But the media and government makes it sound like every person on the tracker is two steps away from death's door with no context. The trackers are so important it's like it's a global counter for anyone with terminal cancer due to die in 4 weeks.

Wasn't it something like the more covid cases hospitals got in the US, the more covid money the hospital got from the government? Maybe it's still like that. I remember reading that last year.

It's like some of you talking about multi-system people dying and it turns out they also had covid. If someone is dying from liver cancer, is super old already bedridden and turns out he has covid and dies, what's the classification? Maybe he simply died from being 92 years old. How does a doctor figure out he truly died from either cancer cells, old age or covid virus?
 
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Cyberpunkd

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It's like some of you talking about multi-system people dying and it turns out they also had covid. If someone is dying from liver cancer, is super old already bedridden and turns out he has covid and dies, what's the classification? Maybe he simply died from being 92 years old. How does a doctor figure out he truly died from either cancer cells, old age or covid virus?
Some countries are reporting Covid deaths and Covid deaths + underlying condition, for example Poland: https://www.gov.pl/web/koronawirus/wykaz-zarazen-koronawirusem-sars-cov-2

Today 19 people died, 5 only from Covid, 14 where Covid was co-existing with other diseases.

In case anyone wants to comment on numbers - they are BS, Poland is doing very little testing.


Also the number of cases is important, but governments anywhere are doing shit job at explaining why. The number of cases taken with the level of vaccinated and the infection rate among different age groups allows to model hospital admissions and bed capacity. It's statistics.
 
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MisterFalcon

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People who come in to a hospital with a broken leg and happen to have covid are still a big problem. They have to be kept away from the other patients who are not infected so the total capacity to care for patients is impacted. Once capacity+1 is reached for covid positive patients a ward will have to be cleared for that one person and the rest who come after.
 

sinnergy

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People who come in to a hospital with a broken leg and happen to have covid are still a big problem. They have to be kept away from the other patients who are not infected so the total capacity to care for patients is impacted. Once capacity+1 is reached for covid positive patients a ward will have to be cleared for that one person and the rest who come after.
And they could die from the COVID .. and not the leg.. it’s only interesting when they die .. if they don’t die , they are an infection.
 

prinz_valium

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Yes it does, when it prevents a literal plague on civilization.

It's been Constitutionally settled precedent for over a hundred years. George Washington did it. We mandate things like seat belts and car insurance even though traffic fatalities kill far less people than than COVID19.

It's what happens when you live in a society and have to balance individual autonomy with the betterment or preservation of all the people in it.
I mandate forced abortions on minorities and the poor, because those are statistically a higher risk to society and commit more crimes, because we mandate the use of seat belts.
 
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Cyberpunkd

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I mandate forced abortions on minorities and the poor, because those are statistically a higher risk to society and commit more crimes
Correlation does not equal causation. Minorities do not commit more crimes because they are minorities, but because of their socio-economic background. Poor whites commit more crimes than rich whites, do we abort white people now?

I feel both sides of the Atlantic are discovering the other side of the equation just now:

Europe: Wants to be US, just with EU social benefits
US: Wants to be EU, just with economic movement and personal independence of the US

Confused Thinking GIF
 
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Croatoan

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People who think the Covid Vaccines are bad (read not effective) should see how bad our Flu Vaccines are. I am talking 10% effective, or less, against the flu some years... lol

These Covid Vaccines are actually impressive.
 
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Malcolm9

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Wow, I just got a two week ban on Era. You can't even question anything to do with Covid on there or you get dog piled on and called an anti vaxxer.
 
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Kilau

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Who has COVID around me?

everyone GIF


Seriously overnight everyone around us has COIVD, wife's school has more cases the last 10 days than the previous 5 months combined. God I hope this shit really is mild.
 

Hari Seldon

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Who has COVID around me?

everyone GIF


Seriously overnight everyone around us has COIVD, wife's school has more cases the last 10 days than the previous 5 months combined. God I hope this shit really is mild.
Omnicromable has gone through my house, mild all around even for my kids who haven't been vaccinated yet. I judge sickness based on if I can or cannot play video games. Omnicromable only had about 4 hours of providing too intense of a headache to play video games. Other than that it was non-stop video game playing. Easy peasy.
 
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BadBurger

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Get vaccinated
The healthcare network I work for is looking at 30% - 45% off all inpatients now being positive for omicron (it varies by hospital). The vast majority are people coming in for other ailments and/or planned visits, but because this variant is so crazily contagious it seems like half of everyone has it. Most people are not exhibiting symptoms, we just have to test everyone because we're in a pandemic and isolate those who are positive.

On one hand that is nuts. On the other it is showing how mild omicron is turning out to be. Thank the Lord. Could you imagine what kind of crisis we'd be dealing with if omicron was even half as dangerous as the second or third waves?
 

Setzer

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Wow, I just got a two week ban on Era. You can't even question anything to do with Covid on there or you get dog piled on and called an anti vaxxer.
That doesn't surprise me. 99% of their community & staff belong in a psych ward.

A month ago I got a two week ban for making a 3 word post supporting comments Giancarlo Esposito made about Gina Carano. I said "Good on Giancarlo" and BAM a 2 week ban. If you don't have the same views, opinions, beliefs they do, then you're better off not posting.
 
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Chittagong

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Exactly half of the people in our company has covid right now in London. Absolutely mental. Seems mild for all thankfully.
 
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tommolb

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That doesn't surprise me. 99% of their community & staff belong in a psych ward.

A month ago I got a two week ban for making a 3 word post supporting comments Giancarlo Esposito made about Gina Carano. I said "Good on Giancarlo" and BAM a 2 week ban. If you don't have the same views, opinions, beliefs they do, then you're better off not posting.
Yeah, I got banned there too for disagreeing with the consensus opinion and got dog piled loads of times, called an idiot/clown and worse. I asked them to delete my account and never going back. It was infuriating reading the forums there most of the time as debates were frowned upon - it was one giant circle jerk of people who all agreed with each other (as anyone who disagreed was bullied out or banned).
 
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