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Opinion Drama Cringe David Jaffe sucks at Metroid

Foorbits

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But good fucking God, the obsession with defending a game that you didn't design or work on is staggeringly concerning.

And now we are nearing the end of the social media argument cycle. When all else fails and your argument is in complete tatters, insult the entire fanbase.

"lol Metroid fans" and now you can walk away with dignity and superiority.
 
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CuteFaceJay

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Not gonna lie I wouldn't have had a fucking clue and would been stuck at the same spot. This dude had a chat that told him he had to do this because the tiles looks the same with no indication even on a texture level that something might be hidden behind these tiles.
 
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Aroll

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I don't imagine myself to be anything. That's sounds like a you problem, pal. And I- for one- am getting sick and fucking tired of insecure gamers who act as if they DO know as much as working pros. I've had hit games and failed games but you ain't had ANY games (at least most of you). So I'm sorry if it insults your ego but I know shit you don't; just like YOU know shit I don't about YOUR line of work. It's not a brag, it's just how experience works. It doesn't make my OPINION any more or less valid than your opinion but it DOES mean that when I bring shit up, I have experience to back it up and so I mention that. Deal with it. Or don't. But stop being such insecure bitches about it. Hell, you wanna make games and think you know so much? Nice- it's never been easier to make your own games. Go do it or shut the fuck up about it.

Related: Look, I have a channel about games and game design. I'm not looking to do ANYTHING other than express my views on MY channel. Now, do my views HAPPEN to be based on decades of working in the industry as a designer (and as a director/designer on a few really big games)? Sure, and so I use that knowledge. Just like I'm sure many of you are using YOUR background of someone who may have played every Metroid since the NES version. We all bring our history to our ideas, content, work, and life in general.

As for the multiple room thing, I accepted I was wrong about that and admitted I was remembering it wrong on my last video. I remembered it wrong and instead of the 20-30 rooms I recalled being open there were only 4. And I said I was wrong- which I was. So what? I think some of y'all are projecting when you say 'his ego won't let him lose or change his mind!'...I'm wrong a LOT about shit on my channel and when it's pointed out to me, I take it back and- as needed- apologize. And in this case, I was wrong.

But I still stand by the other complaints. I think it's bad design. YOU DON'T. That's great. Agree to disagree. But I gotta say, I've never encountered such a whiny ass fanbase as I have with Metroid fans. And I say this as a Nintendo fan; a guy who is excited to buy MARIO PARTY next week REVIEW UNSEEN cause I love the series and the characters that much; a guy who bought Metroid excited to get into it as much as I'm into Link and his adventures. Sadly, for me, it didn't work out. But good fucking God, the obsession with defending a game that you didn't design or work on is staggeringly concerning.

Jaffe
- Jaffe, as a tip, insulting the very people that play your games is not the way to go and while you can argue you are more qualified to talk about good and poor design, ultimately it's the audience playing the games that that good or poor design has to resonate with. If the audience is resonating with the design as it stands, that would be a big indicator that the design is done well, even if it's not to your personal taste.
- The problem inherently with your complaints is that you weren't playing the game as intended, and as instructed. As an example - the game is built around the idea of using a 360 degree (almost) form of aiming and shooting. You were not doing that in your live streams nor stand alone videos when talking about the games design. When you don't do that, when you're fundamentally ignoring one of the primary gameplay features taught to you literally right away, a gameplay feature that makes discovery of hidden areas like this much more organic as they play many enemies strategically so you hit those places by mistake, it leads to people questioning how qualified you are to state the game has bad design. The game even tells you to randomly shoot walls and ceilings. It's instructed to you, then the game IMMEDIATELY has you do it to progress forward. It teaches this mechanic to you and is very straight forward about it. Then it uses it repeatedly all the time throughout the game.

In your humble opinion, the way to do this is to have an indicator that tells you something is "breakable". You bring up Zelda - do you remember playing the original NES game? I ask because, there was never indicators anywhere to blow up a rock or burn a bush or tree. You figured it out through trial and error. Trial and error is, absolutely, a valid gameplay mechanic and valid design.

I think David, the issue here is your word phrasing. To be honest, if you just said "In all my years making games, I'll just say this: I really don't like the design of this mechanic and prefer there to be indicators" - that's fine. Honestly, a lot of gamers are this way. They won't like a game like Dread because of the lack of hand holding like that. Because whether you want to admit it or not, indicators to break something is a form of hand holding. It's telling the player what to do, instead of letting the player discover it. This has nothing to do with liking Metroid games. It's not a Metroid fanbase coming after you. It's just a fundamental disagreement that trial and error is in that of itself bad design. It's been part of game design from the very beginning.
 
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As for the genre, I love the genre. But other than this game (and, it seems, other Metroids I have not played) I can't recall any successful, well know Metroidvanias that have secrets hidden behind walls that are CRITICAL PATH. Pick ups and power ups and short cuts? 100%. But not critical path.
Castlevania Symphony of the Night has you collecting a bunch of secret items and doing some obscure stuff in order to get the true ending. Same for Bloodstained, but even on that one there's obscure shit to do just for the easiest ending.
The obscure stuff in those games may not be breakable blocks yeah, but instead much more obscure shit imo than just having to break a few blocks that are clearly in your way.

As for your other comments I think your are being really disrespectful not only to those that watch your videos but also to gamers in general, but other users have pointed it out already.
 

Aroll

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Jaffe may have been wrong about the number of rooms you could interact with but he wasn't wrong about the fact that what looks like normal indestructible tiles are blocking the main path forward isn't great design.
Trial and error is a valid form of game design. People act like the game doesn't tell you to shoot at every wall, floor, and ceiling you see, and then immediately present that very gameplay concept to you and then use it repeatedly all throughout the game.

It would be bad design, if the game never indicated to you to do it. But it does. The game moves at such a fast pace and Samus can fire her shots so quickly, you can literally discover all the hidden paths on the fly with very little effort. By simply doing what the game tells you.

Indicators something is breakable, basically gets rid of any sense of trial and error. Any sense of wonder or discovery. It's just telling you what to do. Some people absolutely LOVE that. They prefer the path forward by clear and concise, easy to grasp, and the game just guides you quickly through it. But, not every game is that way and many games do not make it obvious certain things can be interacted with in any way. Though, in every case, the game told you at one point to interact with things in that way. The player not remembering to do that, or taking that instruction and making assumptions "oh it told me, but I never used it until now" - is factually incorrect. But that's life. The game at every turn where you break a wall/floor/ceiling has SEVERAL indicators that it's highly likely that floor/wall/ceiling is breakable. Instead of the wall/floor/ceiling itself being the indicator (because that's very obvious and takes away a sense of discovery), the placement of enemies, the design of the level, and the fact there is clearly something on the other side are the visual queues presented.

David just would rather do away with that, and just have some cracks or light or something that just tells him what to do. It's a different type of design to what he prefers, but the game DOES visually indicate you should try shooting at things. It just does it in a more fluid way that lets the players use their brains.
 

kevm3

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Jaffe doesn't need a lecture on respect by a group who is being completely dismissive of his point and saying things like he sucks at Metroid or he got a bad batch of weed. He thinks that portion of the game has bad design and that's his opinion which he is entitled to hold. If we're going to talk about lack of respect, just look at the title of this thread. If it was all about respect, the title of this thread wouldn't be "David Jaffe sucks at Metroid". It'd be "I disagree with Jaffe on his Metroid assessment" or something along those lines.

The super obscure stuff in Castlevania SOTN didn't block you from beating the game, but it blocked you from a secret section/ending which is what nobody is complaining about. Blocking you from secret areas/items is one thing but making the path forward blocked behind what looks like completely normal 'indestructible blocks' is another.
 

kevm3

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Trial and error is a valid form of game design. People act like the game doesn't tell you to shoot at every wall, floor, and ceiling you see, and then immediately present that very gameplay concept to you and then use it repeatedly all throughout the game.

It would be bad design, if the game never indicated to you to do it. But it does. The game moves at such a fast pace and Samus can fire her shots so quickly, you can literally discover all the hidden paths on the fly with very little effort. By simply doing what the game tells you.

Indicators something is breakable, basically gets rid of any sense of trial and error. Any sense of wonder or discovery. It's just telling you what to do. Some people absolutely LOVE that. They prefer the path forward by clear and concise, easy to grasp, and the game just guides you quickly through it. But, not every game is that way and many games do not make it obvious certain things can be interacted with in any way. Though, in every case, the game told you at one point to interact with things in that way. The player not remembering to do that, or taking that instruction and making assumptions "oh it told me, but I never used it until now" - is factually incorrect. But that's life. The game at every turn where you break a wall/floor/ceiling has SEVERAL indicators that it's highly likely that floor/wall/ceiling is breakable. Instead of the wall/floor/ceiling itself being the indicator (because that's very obvious and takes away a sense of discovery), the placement of enemies, the design of the level, and the fact there is clearly something on the other side are the visual queues presented.

David just would rather do away with that, and just have some cracks or light or something that just tells him what to do. It's a different type of design to what he prefers, but the game DOES visually indicate you should try shooting at things. It just does it in a more fluid way that lets the players use their brains.
The issue is the mechanic at the beginning has you shooting blocks that look distinctive. Those blocks look like they have cracks in it. They don't have you shooting roof or floor tiles that look like any other indestructible floor or roof tile. Can that be considered a 'valid' gameplay mechanic? Sure but I don't particularly find it a great one. You're free to disagree.
 
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Jaffe doesn't need a lecture on respect by a group who is being completely dismissive of his point and saying things like he sucks at Metroid or he got a bad batch of weed.
ah yeah, you're the guy that thinks this is "not having visual clues":




please stop.
 

Jeeves

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Hang on, did Jaffe ever work on a successful Metroidvania style game before? Or no? I'm genuinely asking - I'm not familiar with his body of work.

He keeps bringing up his experience as a game designer and I'm wondering if his experience has any relevance to this genre.

On another note, if his points made sense they should be able to stand on their own without being backed up by "trust me, I'm a game dev".
He thinks that portion of the game has bad design and that's his opinion which he is entitled to hold.
I mean he's made multiple public videos about this for an audience of people interested in game design and presents his opinion as fact in these videos. We're definitely entitled to comment on his criticisms.
The issue is the mechanic at the beginning has you shooting blocks that look distinctive. Those blocks look like they have cracks in it. They don't have you shooting roof or floor tiles that look like any other indestructible floor or roof tile. Can that be considered a 'valid' gameplay mechanic? Sure but I don't particularly find it a great one. You're free to disagree.
Again, they look distinctive mainly due to having a thickness of a single line, with a place you want to be clearly waiting on the other side. And yes, sometimes the same thing happens with horizontal lines of terrain too. There is a lot of vertical movement in this game.
Not gonna lie I wouldn't have had a fucking clue and would been stuck at the same spot. This dude had a chat that told him he had to do this because the tiles looks the same with no indication even on a texture level that something might be hidden behind these tiles.
I actually bet that if you were playing this blind you would not have gotten stuck at that part at all, because A: The game gives you plenty of contextual cues (that you would likely pick up on without even realizing) to investigate those tiles despite not outright communicating "hey, break these particular tiles", and B: Unlike Jaffe, you would probably be utilizing the 360 degree aiming that the game introduces to you as one of its core mechanics in the very beginning, which would make it much more natural to shoot at that area -- so natural you may even do it unintentionally.

There's a good reason why the vast majority of players made it through this part without issue and probably don't even remember it.
 

Neff

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Since we're still going to ludicrous lengths to rationalise why discovering the way forward in this game design crime against humanity wasn't a major ordeal, I don't think I've seen anyone point out yet that the ceiling texture for that area is unusually wrapped to each individual block, and it's something you'd see immediately upon entering the room.



Subtle? Yes. Effective? Probably.

But I gotta say, I've never encountered such a whiny ass fanbase as I have with Metroid fans.

Repeatedly pointing out the flaws in your 'argument' despite them staring you in the face isn't whining. It's repeatedly pointing out the flaws in your argument despite them staring you in the face because you're inexplicably and miraculously oblivious to them, just saying.
 
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tygertrip

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I don't imagine myself to be anything. That's sounds like a you problem, pal. And I- for one- am getting sick and fucking tired of insecure gamers who act as if they DO know as much as working pros. I've had hit games and failed games but you ain't had ANY games (at least most of you). So I'm sorry if it insults your ego but I know shit you don't; just like YOU know shit I don't about YOUR line of work. It's not a brag, it's just how experience works. It doesn't make my OPINION any more or less valid than your opinion but it DOES mean that when I bring shit up, I have experience to back it up and so I mention that. Deal with it. Or don't. But stop being such insecure bitches about it. Hell, you wanna make games and think you know so much? Nice- it's never been easier to make your own games. Go do it or shut the fuck up about it.

Related: Look, I have a channel about games and game design. I'm not looking to do ANYTHING other than express my views on MY channel. Now, do my views HAPPEN to be based on decades of working in the industry as a designer (and as a director/designer on a few really big games)? Sure, and so I use that knowledge. Just like I'm sure many of you are using YOUR background of someone who may have played every Metroid since the NES version. We all bring our history to our ideas, content, work, and life in general.

As for the multiple room thing, I accepted I was wrong about that and admitted I was remembering it wrong on my last video. I remembered it wrong and instead of the 20-30 rooms I recalled being open there were only 4. And I said I was wrong- which I was. So what? I think some of y'all are projecting when you say 'his ego won't let him lose or change his mind!'...I'm wrong a LOT about shit on my channel and when it's pointed out to me, I take it back and- as needed- apologize. And in this case, I was wrong.

But I still stand by the other complaints. I think it's bad design. YOU DON'T. That's great. Agree to disagree. But I gotta say, I've never encountered such a whiny ass fanbase as I have with Metroid fans. And I say this as a Nintendo fan; a guy who is excited to buy MARIO PARTY next week REVIEW UNSEEN cause I love the series and the characters that much; a guy who bought Metroid excited to get into it as much as I'm into Link and his adventures. Sadly, for me, it didn't work out. But good fucking God, the obsession with defending a game that you didn't design or work on is staggeringly concerning.

Jaffe
Imagine getting so bussy blasted from people calling you out on blaming the controller, that you type a massive wall of text, lol.
 
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tygertrip

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Jaffe doesn't need a lecture on respect by a group who is being completely dismissive of his point and saying things like he sucks at Metroid or he got a bad batch of weed. He thinks that portion of the game has bad design and that's his opinion which he is entitled to hold. If we're going to talk about lack of respect, just look at the title of this thread. If it was all about respect, the title of this thread wouldn't be "David Jaffe sucks at Metroid". It'd be "I disagree with Jaffe on his Metroid assessment" or something along those lines.

The super obscure stuff in Castlevania SOTN didn't block you from beating the game, but it blocked you from a secret section/ending which is what nobody is complaining about. Blocking you from secret areas/items is one thing but making the path forward blocked behind what looks like completely normal 'indestructible blocks' is another.
You got to show respect to get it. That egomaniac insults everyone while making a fool of himself, and then starts whining about "just my opinion" and hollering (paraphrased) "oh yea, you're dumb!" when he is called out on it. That's what makes all this so amusing. Comedy gold, quite frankly! Just Good, classic, forum drama!
 

Cutty Flam

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David Jaffe is a fan of Mario Party

You heard it here first folks. We’re going in. We are going in. The Mario Party Superstars hype train continues

 
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Mr Rawnch

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The Metroid franchise was basically designed to sell issues of Nintendo Power. I'd love to see new players to the series pick up the original NES copy and give it a go with no maps, YouTube vids, or codes. True, the games are a piece of cake if you have available resources and aren't spending a lot of time stuck in areas.

It's odd that developers decided not to give players the sonar upgrade until the tail-end of the game.
 

RoboFu

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Is he pulling the "I'm an expert" card now? Whatever.

By extension, Dark Souls and Bloodborne have the shittiest game design.

well I am an expert of bad takes by years of posting bad takes.. and I say he has a really bad take on this.
 
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Neff

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The Metroid franchise was basically designed to sell issues of Nintendo Power.

Nah, it was just the '80s. Gaming was relatively niche and most gamers themselves were weirdos and dorks who would not only accept but relish the idea of spending hours figuring out incredibly obscure puzzles amid seas of identical-looking low resolution screens to progress. Fast forward to the PS2/GTA generation and suddenly you have a massive influx of mainstream gamers who are no longer put off by having to use their imagination to bring crude graphics to life, but are also lacking in perception and patience, and are basically the sole reason why the entirety of generation 6's games consisted of holding up to move through very pretty corridors to get to the next turret section.

Dread is simply a joyous relic of an era when gamers were willing to embrace the spirit of adventure and chip away at the obscure, ambiguous and unknown until they taste the thrill of discovery. Even Breath of the Wild, one of Nintendo's biggest successes and without a doubt its most critically lauded game of all time, honours this tradition.
 

BlackTron

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Ok wow, I didn't watch the video until today. I wanted to see just HOW badly his take on the game deserved so much condemnation.

I thought it was all an over reaction, but it really wasn't. Saying you're a fucking moron if it's acceptable is insulting every fan of the game. And then turning around and saying that the extent some will go to to defend a game they didn't make? He already called us fucking morons! But wait, I've never made a game so I guess I don't know anything.

I couldn't help but facepalm when I saw him trying to shoot down an enemy by jumping up and down instead of just aiming at it.

When I saw the room in the video, what instantly caught my attention is that there was no other apparent purpose to the room. When you have a room like that and there just seems to be nothing in it, leading nowhere, you know something is awry. You will start looking carefully and shooting everything. The wall would likely have been broken anyway if he'd engaged the enemies from the start of the room and did so by aiming up. The stray shots would have broken the wall.

I think his real problem is not using the L trigger enough. It should be getting pressed as often as the jump button in this game, as in nigh constantly.

And yes, it's not just Metroid, Zelda also did this. Though in Zelda there were even less clues than in Dread, as in nothing at all lol.
 
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Keihart

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Jaffe doesn't need a lecture on respect by a group who is being completely dismissive of his point and saying things like he sucks at Metroid or he got a bad batch of weed. He thinks that portion of the game has bad design and that's his opinion which he is entitled to hold. If we're going to talk about lack of respect, just look at the title of this thread. If it was all about respect, the title of this thread wouldn't be "David Jaffe sucks at Metroid". It'd be "I disagree with Jaffe on his Metroid assessment" or something along those lines.

The super obscure stuff in Castlevania SOTN didn't block you from beating the game, but it blocked you from a secret section/ending which is what nobody is complaining about. Blocking you from secret areas/items is one thing but making the path forward blocked behind what looks like completely normal 'indestructible blocks' is another.
To be completly fair, Jaffe doesn't suck at Metroid precisely, Jaffe sucks at most games he plays on stream, ignoring tutorials and core mechanics of said games, he has even gone on record admiting how distracted he is while playing.
So i don't know, with a little self awareness, he should of recognized how much of the game he was ignoring while playing Metroid and that was the real reason for him getting stuck. Most players have no problem with that section, so the logical next step should've of been second guessing himlsef instead of doubling down on the shit take of bad design in favor of more hand holding.

Althought i think this got blown out of proportion, everyone can have shit takes, not that there's anything wrong with that.
 

BlackTron

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To be completly fair, Jaffe doesn't suck at Metroid precisely, Jaffe sucks at most games he plays on stream, ignoring tutorials and core mechanics of said games, he has even gone on record admiting how distracted he is while playing.

TBH his stream reminded me of the famous Cuphead video.
 

Turrican

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Of course the irony is that the very design choice or inspiration that is being debated is the core exploration mechanic - including the 360 degree shooting as a means to discover hidden bits - in the Turrican games, which are from the same period as the original Metroid. And the same debate about that design choice was debated back then.
 
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rofif

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Is he pulling the "I'm an expert" card now? Whatever.

By extension, Dark Souls and Bloodborne have the shittiest game design.
I know you are joking but honestly I have no idea how anyone discovered you need to put on the ring and drop sure into the abyss
:p

Or how people for into dlc... Or to the dragon area in ds3.
 
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Eevee86

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Really doesn't want to sink back into obscurity, does he? Let him keep playing. It won't be long before Kraid makes him his bitch and he's crying again.
 
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Keihart

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Respect to genepark and i think david jaffe will play Metroid Dread again
I watched some of that, can't get over the "but other metroidvanias" when the game that coined the term has more obscure shit in it than shooting some blocks, SoTN has half of the game hidden behind a secuence of events so obsecure that you either were the one discovering in your cricle of friends or you could not believe it when told so.

The design of the room it's pretty good, some people will get lost or stuck if you want any degree of exploration in the game, it's what makes it work, you have to be somewhere above boring and under frustrating of the challenge curve or people will not engage with the game and then the mechanic has failed, not everyone reaches the same points in a game with the same skillset, that is what skill checkpoints are for and that is exactly what that point in the game is, it's a small, tutorial like , skill checkpoint.
 

recursive

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No supervision?

Nintendo needs people telling them what to do now? :messenger_tongue:

And they didn't know what good design was, which led to them being the most beloved gaming company to ever exist in the history of the world? To the point where their main characters are as recognizable as Disney characters?

Because they don't know what a good game is?
I think some of the cryptic design and no handholding was to allow for nintendo power to exist. Pure genius by nintendo.
 
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The games came packed with ads for Nintendo power. You could also call the hint hotline for like $1 a minute to get help. That shit wasn't by accident.
I agree that the original Metroid is very cryptic and full of weird design choices, but I also think that ever since Super Metroid the series' progression and world design is logically coherent.
 
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bender

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I wish we could get over calling design choices we disagree with "bad game design", it is a lazy critique for one and assumes there is a proper way to design something. I'd expect better from someone like davidjaffe davidjaffe considering his professional pedigree. Game designers how different aspirations for what they want their level designs to accomplish and for what they want their players to experience. Maybe it is presumptuous of me, but it sounds like David might be expecting everything to confirm to modern design trends that are heavily signposted and are deathly afraid of letting a player feel lost. This is made all the more strange considering we are talking about Dread. I wouldn't go so far as to say the game holds your hand, but it really does funnel you down a critical path. That's one of my bigger complaints against the game and boy do I have a laundry list of complaints to leverage against it. Maybe I was never frustrated because I'm not a streamer and when I play games, I solely focus on them without the distraction of an audience and having to do commentary.

p.s. If you want a frustrating Metroid-adjacent experience, play Rain World.
 
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Danjin44

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I wish we could get over calling design choices we disagree with "bad game design", it is a lazy critique for one and assumes there is a proper way to design something.
It has become default argument when they personally don't like difficult games, I saw same BS argument against Sekiro as well.
 
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DjMystix

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The condescending and arrogant vibe this dude has just rubs me the wrong way. You don't agree with him, you're an effing moron.My God, get over it already. He is not using free aim, a core mechanic, at all. Anyway. This is super childish.

I also thought metroid dread was at time a little frustrating because I didn't know where to go but more than that I was just trying to avoid those dang loading screens. But it is a great game overall and very enjoyable and different.
 

bender

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The condescending and arrogant vibe this dude has just rubs me the wrong way. You don't agree with him, you're an effing moron

To be fair to him, he is just giving back the same attitude he is receiving from the vocal minority of his audience. I don't think that's the smartest choice but that's human nature for you.
 
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KellyM

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I am not finding the game too hard. I really love it. I don't understand how some could get fraustrated, cause they even block ways to help you figure out where to go. As for th shooting walls, it like other Metroid games. How people are complaing, you would think people have never played Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion or Metroid Zero mission. If you have played any of those then is one is no problem.
 

DjMystix

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To be fair to him, he is just giving back the same attitude he is receiving from the vocal minority of his audience. I don't think that's the smartest choice but that's human nature for you.
Understandable. But he has always been like this no? I started watching his channel and then cringed out after a few videos. Way too condescending.
 

bender

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Understandable. But he has always been like this no? I started watching his channel and then cringed out after a few videos. Way too condescending.

I don't really watch his channel or many personalities in general. From the little I've seen and interacted with on GAF (I'm certainly not his favorite robot), he's very bombastic. That's okay and he's garnered audience so you have to respect the hustle. If you are expecting a magnanimous personality, that doesn't seem to be in his wheelhouse.
 
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Rran

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amugsblog.blogspot.com
I think some of the cryptic design and no handholding was to allow for nintendo power to exist. Pure genius by nintendo.
But Metroid predates Nintendo Power by two years.

I think a more likely scenario was simply that certain expected game design aspects hadn't been fine-tuned yet, and gamers generally had more patience for traditional maze-like designs in the '80s than they do today.