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Opinion Drama Cringe David Jaffe sucks at Metroid

Dec 12, 2018
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davidjaffe davidjaffe has designed more games than all of you....in all likelihood, even all of you combined.

So he is a bit more qualified to comment on these things than your average Gaffer!
 
Dec 7, 2008
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davidjaffe davidjaffe has designed more games than all of you....in all likelihood, even all of you combined.

So he is a bit more qualified to comment on these things than your average Gaffer!

That mentality is nonsense, tbh. So because he's designed games, his opinion over how HE PERCEIVES something in a game series that 95% of us in this thread have played since the first one in the 80's and most of us agree isn't an issue, and is part of the series legacy...carries more weight than ours who have actually PLAYED all these games and don't see a problem? Yeah...no
 

Bryank75

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Jaffe is not authority, he is an anomaly! A good one.
 

Bryank75

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That mentality is nonsense, tbh. So because he's designed games, his opinion over how HE PERCEIVES something in a game series that 95% of us in this thread have played since the first one in the 80's and most of us agree isn't an issue, and is part of the series legacy...carries more weight than ours who have actually PLAYED all these games and don't see a problem? Yeah...no

And your sentimentality doesn't taint your opinion?

The outrage at his opinion is hilarious and shows how much his opinion actually matters to all of you.
 

Thaedolus

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Eh, I reflexively shoot/bomb everything in Metroid when I seemingly come to a dead end to make sure a dead end is a dead end. That’s how they be, and they be good.
 
Dec 12, 2018
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Jaffe is not authority, he is an anomaly! A good one.
Good Morning Reaction GIF

an anomaly can be wrong too.
 

Punished Miku

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davidjaffe davidjaffe has designed more games than all of you....in all likelihood, even all of you combined.

So he is a bit more qualified to comment on these things than your average Gaffer!
But he's also saying his design philosophy is the right way, and Sakimoto, Nintendo and Mercury Steam would've failed intro design classes. He's being obviously hyperbolic, and that's part of the reason it's blown up.

People are going to push back, but it's not that big of a deal. I think he likes the controversy and that's just how he states his opinions.

I think the truth is that lots of us who are enthusiasts can offer some solid points. The points will either make sense or they wont, and we don't necessarily have to have made a game to make a point. I'd never claim that I know more about game design than Jaffe, but I also wouldn't claim that someone who hasn't made a film can't discuss film.
 

Wildebeest

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Design is all about trade-offs and compromises. Nintendo's design goal is to make a game that plays like a Metroid game in a way that challenges and delights fans of that series. Not to pass a fictional game design course graded by one game designer.
 
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Dec 7, 2008
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And your sentimentality doesn't taint your opinion?

The outrage at his opinion is hilarious and shows how much his opinion actually matters to all of you.

I wouldn't say openly disagreeing with him is "outrage". You can be sentimental about any game series, it doesn't have anything to do with why i'm saying he's wrong in calling it bad design. Hidden blocks are a fundamental part of this game since the original....if he didnt play the old ones and is just coming across it now, then it can be a WTF moment, but calling it bad design is ignorance in the series. Especially seeing as the game in the very beginning gives you the types of scenarios where it MAY throw that at you.
 
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OsirisBlack

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The ones defending this for the following reasons would fail a design class and be fired from a design job asap. Here's why:

#1- Saying 'this is metroid and it's how the series is' is a ridiculous statement. UNLESS the game makes it clear from the start there is a prerequesite to playing DREAD that you have to have played earlier games in the series, that excuse is hollow and embarrassing. A person's understanding of a game should not have to come from a previous game (esp. when the last meaningfully relevant one in the 2D series was Super Metroid in 94). And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault.

#2- Saying 'the game DOES tell you how to play in the tutorial' is also ridiculous. In the first 10 minutes of exposing the Player to exposing interactive blocks, you get:
a- blocks that LOOK literally like glowing blocks.
b- blocks that look like nothing, just the level.
c- blocks that look like weird bio/bloody/heart sections.

All 3 can be shot and destroyed. However the b type (that looks like just the level) is basically telling the Player 'we will give you ZERO visual cues for what can be damaged...just go into a room and shoot stuff and hope that helps if you are stuck.' This would be like there being NO CRACKS to cue you on bomb walls in Zelda and Players going 'you suck at Zelda cause you're SUPPOSED to enter every room and start throwing bombs randomly until something breaks open'.

ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear. In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'

#3- The 360 aim on the Joy Con controller is shit. I used it as rarely as possible. Not because I wasn't aware of it but because it's a fucking pain in the ass to press that little narrow slice of a button up top. People's answer: 'oh yeah- everyone knows you should play with a pro controller'. Really?!? Then ship the fucking game with a pro controller or at least let Players know that shit on the box/download. A lot of defense of this game is simply defending bad decisions from Nintendo because 'that's shit you should know if you were a REAL fan of Metroid!' Get the fuck out of here, you gatekeeping stooges. Please.

#4-Shooting the enemy crawling on the ceiling IS a great tell to help Players understand the section. However, the enemy ALSO- as part of its path- crawls on parts of the ceiling that are NOT breakable. I happened to kill it on one of those non break sections. And so he was GONE and thus that hint was no longer an option for me. I guess that's my problem too, right? I should have magically known there was a magical window in which to shoot the enemy so it would open up a section of the level and it's my fault- even tho the enemy that is designed as a tool tip GOES to places where the tool tip won't pop. Insane defense.

Look, you can love Metroid all you like. And you can love how arcane it can be. And you can even love- silly as I think it is- your being accepted in a little club that has a secret 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game!' handshake. But what you can't do is try to prop up shit design and call it good. I mean you can TRY that, but those of us who actually know the craft and have worked in the craft of design- whatever you think of my various games- know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit.

I love you.

Don't do drugs.

Jaffe
You should just quit the game now if that's your take on the game later on they give you absolutely no clue at all as to how to advance with the last power up you get. (Common sense helps a bit) Neither Metroid or Nintendo is going to hold your hand and coddle you as you play a game that has had the same basic core design for over 30 years. They add to it but its the same, if it's bad design by your standards make a better Metroidvania.
 

Rykan

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I think Mr. Jaffe's reaction is a little bit overblown, but the snarky comments towards him are uncalled for. The man has done a lot for gaming and deserves respect for that. Also a friendly reminder that he is one of the few developers/ex - developers that still interacts so openly outside of just twitter.

As for this particular situation: I think there are several hints inside the room that you are to shoot the ceiling. The lay out of the room pushes you up in a natural way. There's an enemy on the ceiling which I think is not there to give it away, but to serve as a quick reminder that you can shoot upwards.

It shows the next room right above you. The fact that you can see that it's empty while the map shows an opening in the same room suggests that the opening is not an entrance, it's an exit and that the solution to getting in there is in the room you're currently in.

You could argue that it could still use more work to increase the clarity of it, but I think it's too far to call it bad design all together. I've seen far more grievous examples than this for sure. I think the frustration comes from the fact that "Where the fuck do I go next!?" Is one of the worst feelings in gaming if it overstays its welcome.
 

Rumpleforeskin

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Oct 16, 2020
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"There's no indication on the map!"

There's literally a chunk of map representing the area immediately above him..
The area seems to connect to nowhere he's visited already.. why would there be a dead end right there..
The area is separated by a thin bit of flooring..
There's also enemies idling there.. almost like they are waiting there to give you something to kill..

The logical thing would be to test if the floor can be shot through, no?

Jaffe has zero deductive reasoning skills. I bet his old pecker finally moved for the first time in years when he heard that his baby, God of War, was now being designed for DSP as its target audience.


If that's the design mentality he endorses then I guess i'll say thanks for Twisted Metal and the original God of War, but good fucking riddance from this industry.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Mar 8, 2005
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Yes, while it can certainly lead to the frustrating moments that you experienced, I think your reaction was a little overblown. It's not like this was a hard stop in your progression. You could have easily just shrugged your shoulders and then revisited this at a later time when you have more gear and more gameplay experience under your belt. Encountering little roadblocks that you have to revisit later is a staple of this sub-genre.

Actually if it had been a hard stop-meaning I could not leave the room- I would have solved it easily because there would have been nothing else to do.

But I had been stuck for about 45 min at this point, wandering the map over and over with no idea where to go next. And because I do know the genre, there was no way for me to know WHERE/WHY I was getting stuck. Had I missed a pick up somewhere (or an upgrade) that would allow access to areas I had seen before but could not reach? Had I missed a switch to open one of the many doors I had encountered at this point that would not open for me? Was there a part of the map that I hadn't bothered to explore all of? Who knows. I certainly didn't. And this was only 5% into the game. I extrapolated this feeling out to what it would feel like when I had over a hundred sections to explore open and I was done.
 
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tommib

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I played both docked with the pro controller and in portable mode with the joy cons. I prefer the pro controller for everything obviously, but I had no problems with the joy cons.
Playing on the lite and close to finishing it. Didn’t for a moment think there was something wrong about controlling Samus.
 

tommib

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davidjaffe davidjaffe has designed more games than all of you....in all likelihood, even all of you combined.

So he is a bit more qualified to comment on these things than your average Gaffer!
Sure, I just think Metroid games are very different from what he has done - and I love his games. Metroid is supposed to be a bit obtuse and cryptic. It’s not poor design it’s just what the games are about and why they have thirsty fans that are now jerking off to Dread because it’s giving them the experience they want.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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May 31, 2020
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...carries more weight than ours who have actually PLAYED all these games and don't see a problem? Yeah...no

This is strange phrasing.

As someone who's mildly interested in Metroid, I'd much rather hear from someone who doesn't treat it like a sacred cow than someone who's played all the Metroids and therefore thinks their opinion "has weight".
 

Black_Stride

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Mar 31, 2011
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David Jaffe, who designed one of the most highly regarded games of all time, doesn’t know how to design games.

welcome origin GIF

Are you talking about Twisted Metal Black or God of War '05?
 

Dr Bass

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davidjaffe davidjaffe has designed more games than all of you....in all likelihood, even all of you combined.

So he is a bit more qualified to comment on these things than your average Gaffer!
Partially true. Some of us here might have designed a game or two as well but ...

A lot of people are progressing through the game just fine. In fact, if you read the OT I don't remember seeing anyone complain about hidden walls blocking progression. It's a part of the Metroid series, going all the way back to the NES, where there were clear visual cues you can "try things" there as well.

Not being able to learn a games rules, that everyone else can pick up on and handle just fine, and then complain about those rules ... not sure what to say really.
 
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NoobleBear

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This might sound crazy to some but I kind of appreciate getting stuck if it's intentional. The part that Jaffe initially pointed it did not trip me up but I did get stuck in the second area for quite some time but the back and forth and trial and error is what the metroid series is all about. I remember when I was a kid and I realized you could super bomb the glass tube to break it I lost my fucking shit. I was stuck for like a month and then BOOOOOOOOOM, still remember that moment. In Jaffe's defence some inidation could be helpful. I would suggest something subtle like have the blocks glow for a fracture of a second upon firing anywhere in the room. just to show that they're different it can be as subtle as anyone would like for my idea to be valid... if that helps.
 
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Eevee86

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There was only one point in the game where a destructible block tripped me up for a few minutes and it was an "oh, duh" moment when I figured it out. Not even remotely at difficult as the older games.
 

tommib

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This might sound crazy to some but I kind of appreciate getting stuck if it's intentional. The part that Jaffe initially pointed it did not trip me up but I did get stuck in the second area for quite some time but the back and forth and trial and error is what the metroid series is all about. I remember when I was a kid and I realized you could super bomb the glass tube to break it I lost my fucking shit. I was stuck for like a month and then BOOOOOOOOOM, still remember that moment. In Jaffe's defence some inidation could be helpful. I would suggest something subtle like have the blocks glow for a fracture of a second upon firing anywhere in the room. just to show that they're different it can be as subtle as anyone would like for my idea to be valid... if that helps.
Yeap, I love you davidjaffe davidjaffe but this is what Metroid is about. There’s an element of old-school graphical adventures with their hard as nails pixel-hunting and abstract inventory combination. People still develop these for a reason. Not everything needs to be a continuous road of action without obstacles that stop and leave you lost and puzzled. The main OT for Dread has a lot of people happy because the game stops them on their tracks. It’s what gives us a hard-on.
 
Dec 7, 2008
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This is strange phrasing.

As someone who's mildly interested in Metroid, I'd much rather hear from someone who doesn't treat it like a sacred cow than someone who's played all the Metroids and therefore thinks their opinion "has weight".

Not strange at all if you comprehend what i'm saying. So because i don't agree with his take that its bad design that a series staple is still in the latest entry, its a "sacred cow" to me? Speaking of strange phrasing...
 
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