• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Drama Cringe David Jaffe sucks at Metroid

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,348
6,759
955
Jaffe is not authority, he is an anomaly! A good one.
When the majority of people are fine with something and the "anomaly" can't solve basic puzzles ... that's good? I don't think you understand what you quoted.

BTW Bryan, have you even played the game? Are you going to? None of the games success has to do with nostalgia btw, because the game is damn good and stands up to anything else modern.
 

Ezquimacore

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,202
3,112
440
I started playing Metroid a few months ago, I played zero mission, Samus returns and super Metroid. These games are fucking amazing in game design and basically a mix of Zelda, MegaMan and dark souls. The beautiful thing about the games is is to discover what to do next, basically a 10-15 hours dungeon with amazing action. I wish modern triple a games were more like this and not the typical lineal bullshit they are feeding us these days. Sorry David Jaffe but your opinion is utter bullshit. Metroid is fucking amazing I wish it had the same budget of Zelda.
 

PhaseJump

Member
Aug 26, 2020
657
1,249
380
There is a room with enemies and a narrow ceiling to access it. The "indication" is that you should be able to get up there somehow, and it implies that you need to shoot everything or explore. Every single Metroid game has this design.
 

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,866
11,103
670
A total non-issue, Metroid has allways been like this, all other Metroidvanias have been like this, the guy has no patience to experiment and is calling everyone that does a ' f*ing moron'.

A totally redundant complain from a totally redundant person.
cmon.
A small crack on that wall or anything would not hurt.
I would be fooled because the wall looks normal and you can see another entry to that room on a minimap.
I metroidvanias I've played, this would be ok for secret but not for main path.

Show some fucking respect and understanding.
Jaffe opinion might not matter at all but he knows what he is saying and at the end it is still his opinion
 
Last edited:

Ezquimacore

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,202
3,112
440
cmon.
A small crack on that wall or anything would not hurt.
I would be fooled because the wall looks normal and you can see another entry to that room on a minimap.
I metroidvanias I've played, this would be ok for secret but not for main path.

Show some fucking respect and understanding.
Jaffe opinion might not matter at all but he knows what he is saying and at the end it is still his opinion
This is the only Nintendo franchise without handholding since the 80's, let's keep it like that. At the end is rewarded and not just there to be annoying, Metroid is not for everyone and that's ok, but let's not act like this is "bad design" just because some people are just not good at it. That's like someone saying dark souls is bad because I'm not good at it.
 

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,866
11,103
670
This is the only Nintendo franchise without handholding since the 80's, let's keep it like that. At the end is rewarded and not just there to be annoying, Metroid is not for everyone and that's ok, but let's not act like this is "bad design" just because some people are just not good at it. That's like someone saying dark souls is bad because I'm not good at it.
That has nothing to do with HAND HOLDING wtf.

And Dark Souls is not immune:
-I doubt many (if anyone) would honestly know to put on the fucking ring of artorias and jump into chasm.
-I doubt many would know to kneel in the specific spot in dark souls 3 to get to the cool big optional area.
-Or that you can control enemy in sekiro to get tke kite stuff done
Many examples like that in souls which most players will only find after looking up guide. I've finished Dark Souls 3 and only then learned about the nameless king area or champion gundyr dark area. It's TOO hidden.
But in Souls aside from Artorias Ring, at least this stuff is hidden.

Again. I don't think adding a crack on the wall would ruin hand holding. Game difficulty should not be measure by how asshole it is
 

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,348
6,759
955
cmon.
A small crack on that wall or anything would not hurt.
I would be fooled because the wall looks normal and you can see another entry to that room on a minimap.
I metroidvanias I've played, this would be ok for secret but not for main path.

Show some fucking respect and understanding.
Jaffe opinion might not matter at all but he knows what he is saying and at the end it is still his opinion
Again, gonna ask ... Look at all the people NOT having a problem with this. This is what Metroid is.

People complaining about this are asking the game to be something it's not.

Finding walls where you look at it, and then think "hmm this could maybe be destroyed." is part of the series.

My apologies for all the bold and italics but people aren't getting it.
 

Ezquimacore

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,202
3,112
440
That has nothing to do with HAND HOLDING wtf.

And Dark Souls is not immune:
-I doubt many (if anyone) would honestly know to put on the fucking ring of artorias and jump into chasm.
-I doubt many would know to kneel in the specific spot in dark souls 3 to get to the cool big optional area.
-Or that you can control enemy in sekiro to get tke kite stuff done
Many examples like that in souls which most players will only find after looking up guide. I've finished Dark Souls 3 and only then learned about the nameless king area or champion gundyr dark area. It's TOO hidden.
But in Souls aside from Artorias Ring, at least this stuff is hidden.

Again. I don't think adding a crack on the wall would ruin hand holding. Game difficulty should not be measure by how asshole it is
The thing is that Metroid has cracks on the wall sometimes and sometimes you just have to look around, I understand how it could be challenging if this is your first Metroid but after you get it the first time then that's like a "ahhh ok" moment and now you know, this David Jaffe guy is overreacting and calling Metroid of all franchises a "bad design" when this is one of the most complex franchises out there in terms of level design.
 
Last edited:

TwiztidElf

Member
Mar 5, 2005
3,257
908
1,625
ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear. In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'
This is the exact reason I've never finished a Metroid game, and the exact reason I've been cautious to not buy into the hype on this one regardless of how nice the platforming and boss fights look.
I hit this point, get frustrated, lose patience, and quit. And I very, very rarely quit games before the credits.
Thanks DJ for the final confirmation that it's a skip for me.
 

Samus Aran

Member
Dec 29, 2014
346
570
540
Sweden
This is factually wrong because NOT every game needs to hold your hand.
Not every game is for every player.
Same thing with people saying Souls games need to have an easy mode.
Or that its too hard to get into Siege today.
Or that Fortnites building ruins the game.
Or that fixed enemy levels make rushing the game hard because you meet enemies you couldnt possibly defeat.

There is not a universal standard of "good" game design, and some players go through life playing games that spell shit out for you so when faced with a problem that hasnt been spelt out in its entirety suddenly the game is badly designed.

Not every game is for every player, some players legit just suck at game type X so yes its very possible for the problem to lie with the player.

Good post and also:

These gamers shall henceforth be known as... entitled gamers!


Lets Go Reaction GIF by Mason Ramsey
 

01011001

Member
Dec 4, 2018
8,271
12,917
650
If you see something on the other side of a wall, is it hard to try shooting the wall? The game does tell you to try shooting things early on in the game.

People are used to modern handholding.



exactly, its literally an essential part of the game to try and shoot walls, and every wall that is part of the main progression is extremely obvious.

people nowadays really suck at games
 

Jeeves

Member
Dec 7, 2008
1,195
1,605
1,310
That has nothing to do with HAND HOLDING wtf.



Again. I don't think adding a crack on the wall would ruin hand holding. Game difficulty should not be measure by how asshole it is
It's a matter of trust and reward. The game trusts the player to have the initiative to try something without being told directly what to try or where to try it. And since the player passes this obstacle based not on a crack that may as well spell "shoot me" but rather by observing indirect contextual cues and applying their own brain, the player feels rewarded and clever. That type of reward is the crux of this genre.
 

rofif

Member
Sep 13, 2019
7,866
11,103
670
Btw this is from the guy that popularized QTE, the SHITTIEST design in action games of the 21 century. Thank God with left that shit behind.
Qte is crap but it was a different time and performing qte actions was exciting at the time. At least to kid me
 

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
11,265
27,305
995
Ireland
When the majority of people are fine with something and the "anomaly" can't solve basic puzzles ... that's good? I don't think you understand what you quoted.

BTW Bryan, have you even played the game? Are you going to? None of the games success has to do with nostalgia btw, because the game is damn good and stands up to anything else modern.
Yes I'm picking it up, my son wants it...I'll play it too.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,348
6,759
955
The ones defending this for the following reasons would fail a design class and be fired from a design job asap. Here's why:

#1- Saying 'this is metroid and it's how the series is' is a ridiculous statement. UNLESS the game makes it clear from the start there is a prerequesite to playing DREAD that you have to have played earlier games in the series, that excuse is hollow and embarrassing. A person's understanding of a game should not have to come from a previous game (esp. when the last meaningfully relevant one in the 2D series was Super Metroid in 94). And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault.

#2- Saying 'the game DOES tell you how to play in the tutorial' is also ridiculous. In the first 10 minutes of exposing the Player to exposing interactive blocks, you get:
a- blocks that LOOK literally like glowing blocks.
b- blocks that look like nothing, just the level.
c- blocks that look like weird bio/bloody/heart sections.

All 3 can be shot and destroyed. However the b type (that looks like just the level) is basically telling the Player 'we will give you ZERO visual cues for what can be damaged...just go into a room and shoot stuff and hope that helps if you are stuck.' This would be like there being NO CRACKS to cue you on bomb walls in Zelda and Players going 'you suck at Zelda cause you're SUPPOSED to enter every room and start throwing bombs randomly until something breaks open'.

ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear. In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'

#3- The 360 aim on the Joy Con controller is shit. I used it as rarely as possible. Not because I wasn't aware of it but because it's a fucking pain in the ass to press that little narrow slice of a button up top. People's answer: 'oh yeah- everyone knows you should play with a pro controller'. Really?!? Then ship the fucking game with a pro controller or at least let Players know that shit on the box/download. A lot of defense of this game is simply defending bad decisions from Nintendo because 'that's shit you should know if you were a REAL fan of Metroid!' Get the fuck out of here, you gatekeeping stooges. Please.

#4-Shooting the enemy crawling on the ceiling IS a great tell to help Players understand the section. However, the enemy ALSO- as part of its path- crawls on parts of the ceiling that are NOT breakable. I happened to kill it on one of those non break sections. And so he was GONE and thus that hint was no longer an option for me. I guess that's my problem too, right? I should have magically known there was a magical window in which to shoot the enemy so it would open up a section of the level and it's my fault- even tho the enemy that is designed as a tool tip GOES to places where the tool tip won't pop. Insane defense.

Look, you can love Metroid all you like. And you can love how arcane it can be. And you can even love- silly as I think it is- your being accepted in a little club that has a secret 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game!' handshake. But what you can't do is try to prop up shit design and call it good. I mean you can TRY that, but those of us who actually know the craft and have worked in the craft of design- whatever you think of my various games- know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit.

I love you.

Don't do drugs.

Jaffe
It's not really arcane .. and it's not random.

It's very simple

"Hey these walls look thin, and there is something interesting on the other side."

That's basically it. The powers of observation at play. IMO it's way better than most games out there because it requires you to use your brain. Having a game spell everything out for you is exactly what I don't want.

BTW as to your point in #1, they explain this early in the game as well. You don't have to play previous entries to get that information. Just this one. I mean I said this thread was rude towards you in my first post, but you're language is pretty rude yourself, calling actual reasons "ridiculous" and calling that reasoning "embarrassing." I think that's fairly uncalled for because, again, the proof is in the pudding, and you're the only one on NeoGAF complaining like this. Think about that.

I really don't think requiring the slightest amount of logical deduction in games is a bad thing. The fact that most people in these threads are finishing the game just fine, without any help, proves that point IMO.
 
Last edited:

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,348
6,759
955
I finally saw the video and uhm... I did that part without even thinking. I guess I am conditioned by playing all the previous games in the series. (Sometimes I think the latest games actually hold your hand too much.)

So I got 100% item collection in 3 nights (about 11 hours of playtime) after coming home from work... without glancing at a single video guide. Does that make me some kind of Metroid god?
Nope, you're a regular, capable, gamer. Congrats on finishing btw, it's a great game isn't it?
 

Ezquimacore

Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,202
3,112
440
Qte is crap but it was a different time and performing qte actions was exciting at the time. At least to kid me
I just couldn't not appreciate qte after playing games like Ninja Gaiden black and Ninja Gaiden 2. You actually had to know how to do the Izuna drop.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tygertrip

Porcile

Member
Oct 23, 2012
5,669
2,081
860
Good thing Nintendo fired the designer the who put this in the game and then... kept it the game as some kind of sick joke.
 

Wildebeest

Member
Sep 5, 2021
279
256
270
Had a huge part in RE4 which came out the same year..... are you gonna hate on that too?
How did you know you were supposed to only use your knife to fight that guy just to explain a fixed QTE movie was going to play later? Was that good game design?
 
  • Empathy
Reactions: Bryank75

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Mar 31, 2011
6,681
5,104
1,130
I just couldn't not appreciate qte after playing games like Ninja Gaiden black and Ninja Gaiden 2. You actually had to know how to do the Izuna drop.

So you chose to post a gif of Ninja Gaiden 3.......the bane of the Ninja Gaiden series that we all just ignore?
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
Apr 12, 2010
12,462
22,236
1,480
...something, something spinning blade towers in Hades from God of War. davidjaffe davidjaffe , defend your honor and gamer cred!
 
Last edited:

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
11,265
27,305
995
Ireland
How did you know you were supposed to only use your knife to fight that guy just to explain a fixed QTE movie was going to play later? Was that good game design?

Seemed pretty badass when I finally figured it out all those years ago....

Design is a bit over my head.... I just know about cowboy hats and the like!

Cowboy Yeehaw Agenda GIF


I like Jaffe, everyone should be cool to him!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pietanic

Pietanic

Member
Jun 3, 2013
1,156
2,341
885
Northern Ireland
I like Jaffe, everyone should be cool to him!
No, no mate.

let’s drive him of this forum like we did to John Linneman from DF also.

The amount of negativity directed towards people in this forum is becoming really unpleasant. I know it is always there but it’s quite sad to see.

Fair enough if you don’t agree or like Jaffe but there’s no need for personal or professional insults.
 

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
11,265
27,305
995
Ireland
No, no mate.

let’s drive him of this forum like we did to John Linneman from DF also.

The amount of negativity directed towards people in this forum is becoming really unpleasant. I know it is always there but it’s quite sad to see.

Fair enough if you don’t agree or like Jaffe but there’s no need for personal or professional insults.

100%

Gaf should be a cool place that people want to hang out and shoot the shit in......

Not a place of constant antagonistic behavior.
 

Edgelord79

Member
Sep 24, 2020
1,232
1,561
440

Metroid was always about exploring the environment, including finding shootable blocks. This isn't nearly as cryptic as he makes it out to be.

I'd also like to mention how he keeps missing with the "jumping shot" and apparently never uses diagonal shooting.

sorry David, but you are starting getting to old for this shit. The only thing that fell apart is your career.
Your juvenile thread is more of an indicator of why your opinion doesn't count. Not only do you make fun of someone for their skills like a child, but you also fail to provide any form of technical evidence to support your argument.
 
  • Like
Reactions: recursive

Wildebeest

Member
Sep 5, 2021
279
256
270
Seemed pretty badass when I finally figured it out all those years ago....

So if it feels cool, you will forgive it, even if it is not signposted at all and is just some random intuitive thing that may not make any sense to some people? Well, I wouldn't flunk you from a game design course for that observation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bryank75
Dec 7, 2008
3,991
1,898
1,415
Im 99% certain that in Super Metroid......

There was a sealed tunnel you were in and had to Super Bomb to break in order to then drop down below it and proceed that had absolutely no visual cues or any hints to do so

So stuff like this where the key to progression isnt blatantly spelled out in flashing lights and cracks, and whatever LMAO is not anything new to this series. Really sad the way people expect every single game to cater to their personal opinions of how they should be.
 
Last edited:

*Nightwing

Member
Sep 24, 2014
813
1,254
630
Nope
I’d say both are correct. Nothing he says is technically incorrect. It is an outdated gameplay style that would never fly in a new IP.

The unspoken part that is also technically correct and equally as valid is this is the Metroid game we have been waiting for as fans. And as a game in the Metroid franchise it is fantastic and we can forgive all those details we would not let pass on a brand new IP since it does it’s job so well as a modern update to a classic representation of Metroid. I don’t think this game was made to expand the player base and not seeing it widely advertised in non gaming places is an hyperbolic example of it. It isn’t a new IP trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator as most modern game developers have to. It’s catering specifically to Metroid fans who have been asking for a 2D Classic Metroid
 

carlosrox

Member
May 19, 2020
3,487
5,781
530
So has he never played Super Metroid or any Metroid game before?

I missed some blocks in a room myself (not this room, that one is obvious as shit) and went everywhere looking until I eventually made it back to that room (it still wasn't even the right room I needed to progress where I needed to) but I didn't cry about it, I enjoyed it.

Who the fuck plays a Metroid game and doesn't know this is how they work?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tygertrip
Dec 12, 2018
2,360
2,978
435
Your juvenile thread is more of an indicator of why your opinion doesn't count. Not only do you make fun of someone for their skills like a child, but you also fail to provide any form of technical evidence to support your argument.
what type of technical evidence you have in mind?
 

StylishMGTOW

Member
Jun 9, 2020
399
781
395
Just because it's 'always been like this', doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate complaint. There's always room for improvement for anything and the fact that you guys are willing to forego legitimate design issues because it's always been like that... Man, maybe the industry is doomed for stagnation after all, what with this kind of mentality amongst consumers.

Also, how about, instead of attacking Jaffe and his place in the industry, you critique his opinion? I disagree with Jaffe with a lot of things, but he has a point in this; and no, I'm not 'appealing to authority' here: from a designer's perspective, this is not good design.

I swear man, people take their video games so seriously that they're willing to take it up the ass with these corporations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edgelord79