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David Jaffe sucks at Metroid

cireza

Member
No, this isn't standard metroid game design. They don't put a series of destructable blocks above and below you but in order to progress you have to shoot the floor that has no visual cues to shoot. Castlevania SOTN never had this problem, nor did Cave Story, nor did Axiom Verge nor did Super metroid.
I have been playing Metroid games since the very first. There are instances where you don't have any visual information about the fact that a bloc is breakable. You are meant to explore and try things.
 

NikuNashi

Member
Doubling down… He could be looking for visibility. He does run a business with his podcasts and YouTube videos.
He's proving his point, if a game is not consistent in its core mechanics then its a shit game. I've not played it yet so cannot judge but looks very sus gameplay wise for a big N game.
 

Kimahri

Member
sir, this is a Metroid game.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Metroid, but what? What a weird way to defend shitty game design. Being a Metroid game doesn't make you immune to progress. It doesn't mean you never have to improve. It doesn't mean what once was is always perfect. Shit evolves. Often that means improvements, sometimes not. But in this case, ehhhh. Shooting wildly around you to figure out if shit is there is enough to turn me off this game. I've played too many games and I have too little time on my hands to bother with this nonsense.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Metroid, but what? What a weird way to defend shitty game design. Being a Metroid game doesn't make you immune to progress. It doesn't mean you never have to improve. It doesn't mean what once was is always perfect. Shit evolves. Often that means improvements, sometimes not. But in this case, ehhhh. Shooting wildly around you to figure out if shit is there is enough to turn me off this game. I've played too many games and I have too little time on my hands to bother with this nonsense.
Metroid did evolve. The jump from the original to Dread is huge.
 

Soodanim

Member
I haven't played Dread, but if it is as Jaffe says then I agree with him that it's bad design. No visual cues AND no lock in is a bad combination. Just expecting you to try all sorts of shit with no indication whatsoever that it's about shooting an unmarked block means it could technically be any block in the entire game.
 

Jeeves

Member
People just can't get over the fact that the clues aren't on the blocks themselves, but are instead spread around the whole rest of the room suggesting "Hey, there's a path forward up here. You should try to get up here."

How dare a game violate design principles by asking the player to apply an iota of critical thinking.
 
I agree with him to the extend. But it doesn't make the game bad. Or he think that developers forgot or not able to make a helpful clue? In a such polished game? Really? I mean it's intended.
 

Neff

Member
How about we stop acting like everyone is just going "it's always been like this" and not giving tons of thought out reasons why it's good design.

Okay. At that point there aren't many obvious places you can go. You're shut off from numerous points it's impossible to go back on due to your lack of abilities. The Metroidvania genre often does this when it wants you to figure out an ambiguous way forward, by eliminating the way back. The screen Jaffe got stuck on has an unexplored exit on the screen above, implying it might be productive to go upwards somehow. Fortunately for the player, it's simply a matter of shooting the scenery nearby for a clue, which the game tells you beforehand is a good idea.

It's not idiot-proof design, because idiots have gotten stuck on it, and many, many sections like it, long before this game released. It's indirect, but it's not unintuitive or arbitrary. In fact, it's fairly logical. It just requires some willingness to think and trust in the game's design, which is solid throughout.

They don't put a series of destructable blocks above and below you but in order to progress you have to shoot the floor that has no visual cues to shoot.

This happens in Metroid, Metroid II, Super, and Samus Returns. I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure it happens in Fusion and Zero Mission as well. It's a staple of 2D Metroids, always has been.
 
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Kimahri

Member
Oh, I totally got your point, I just don't agree. It's not bad game design. If the player isn't aware of how the game works and isn't paying attention, then it's the player's fault, not the game's.
If you have to randomly spray bullets randomly around you in random areas to progress, that is indeed bad game design.
 
This has nothing to do with holding your hand. I've beat games like Castlevania SOTN, Super Metroid, Axiom Verge, etc. I don't recall any of those games having stuff like this. This is more akin to the original castlevania where you were supposed to duck in a corner and a magical tornado would whisk you away

Someone tell me how it is logical to shoot the highlighted floor here to progress
Because the game demonstrates to you at the very beginning that if there are areas that look like paths beneath blocks, you can and should try shooting them.
And then it tells you in the hint screens to do the same thing, over and over again.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
Seems like a lack of experience really. Feeling lost and explore to find a way forward is a big part of what makes a game a metroidvania, and shooting, hitting, bombing walls has been standard practise for 35 years in this genre. They’re showing more in Dread since the special blocks change once you find them and show on the map as well. There is lots of handholding now compared to Super Metroid where they just turn back into a standard stone in a few seconds and you have fake blocks you can pass through with no visual indicator.
 

kevm3

Member
Because the game demonstrates to you at the very beginning that if there are areas that look like paths beneath blocks, you can and should try shooting them.
And then it tells you in the hint screens to do the same thing, over and over again.
Except at the beginning, those blocks the game has you shoot look distinctive. They don't look like normal ceiling or floor tiles
 

kevm3

Member
And in that screenshot, those 'hidden destructible blocks' are visually distinctive and they are in your path of progress. They aren't normal, typically indestructible ceiling or floor tiles. The example I'm talking about would be more akin to having to shoot the ceiling or the floor in the highlighted areas. "Hey, there's a pillar in the background so you should have known to shoot the ceiling." or "Hey, there's a crystal in the background so you should have known to shoot the floor."
 
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Dr Bass

Gold Member
No, this isn't standard metroid game design. They don't put a series of destructable blocks above and below you but in order to progress you have to shoot the floor that has no visual cues to shoot. Castlevania SOTN never had this problem, nor did Cave Story, nor did Axiom Verge nor did Super metroid.
Dude, you’re just wrong. Super Metroid DID have hidden destructible sections all over the place. Symphony of the Night had destructible walls too, some of them just flat walls in the middle of nowhere. Who cares what Axiom Verge or Cave Story did?

You’re misunderstanding the term “visual cues” to mean “place bomb here” with a giant crack. That’s not using your powers of observation. The cue here is the room layout, the thinness of the floor, and what the map looks like.

You screamers are losing this argument and you don’t even understand why. I’ll repeat it. Again.

The vast majority of people are figuring these sections out within seconds. They are saying so, you can see it on YouTube, and they say why they are figuring it out. This means these sections do in fact have reasoning behind them that people can identify and explain, and they all have the same answer. This means there IS an obvious design here with a puzzle and a solution and people get it. This is GOOD design. Just because there are a select few who do NOT get it, is not the fault of the game.

Some people can’t solve Sudoku puzzles. Not everyone does well on tests or the SATs. Is that the fault of the puzzles or tests? Nope. If most people understand the puzzle and find the answer, not to mention in seconds, the game is not the issue. Period.

Whining and crying like babies over the inability to solve video games that kids can easily figure is an odd look.
 

Jeeves

Member
And in that screenshot, those 'hidden destructible blocks' are visually distinctive and they are in your path of progress. They aren't normal, typically indestructible ceiling or floor tiles. The example I'm talking about would be more akin to having to shoot the ceiling or the floor in the highlighted areas. "Hey, there's a pillar in the background so you should have known to shoot the ceiling." or "Hey, there's a crystal in the background so you should have known to shoot the floor."
It is a line of terrain one block thick that separates you from progressing. I guess you're hung up because sometimes the same thing happens with horizontal lines of blocks too?
 

kevm3

Member
Dude, you’re just wrong. Super Metroid DID have hidden destructible sections all over the place. Symphony of the Night had destructible walls too, some of them just flat walls in the middle of nowhere. Who cares what Axiom Verge or Cave Story did?

You’re misunderstanding the term “visual cues” to mean “place bomb here” with a giant crack. That’s not using your powers of observation. The cue here is the room layout, the thinness of the floor, and what the map looks like.

You screamers are losing this argument and you don’t even understand why. I’ll repeat it. Again.

The vast majority of people are figuring these sections out within seconds. They are saying so, you can see it on YouTube, and they say why they are figuring it out. This means these sections do in fact have reasoning behind them that people can identify and explain, and they all have the same answer. This means there IS an obvious design here with a puzzle and a solution and people get it. This is GOOD design. Just because there are a select few who do NOT get it, is not the fault of the game.

Some people can’t solve Sudoku puzzles. Not everyone does well on tests or the SATs. Is that the fault of the puzzles or tests? Nope. If most people understand the puzzle and find the answer, not to mention in seconds, the game is not the issue. Period.

Whining and crying like babies over the inability to solve video games that kids can easily figure is an odd look.

The only ones whining and crying are the ones who can't take criticism of their sacred cow game. Shooting completely indistinctive floor and ceiling tiles to progress the game is bad game design period. Post some screenshots of Castlevania SOTN or Super Metroid where you have to hit completely normal ceiling or floor tiles with no visual distinction to progress to the next area
 

Dr Bass

Gold Member
And in that screenshot, those 'hidden destructible blocks' are visually distinctive and they are in your path of progress. They aren't normal, typically indestructible ceiling or floor tiles. The example I'm talking about would be more akin to having to shoot the ceiling or the floor in the highlighted areas. "Hey, there's a pillar in the background so you should have known to shoot the ceiling." or "Hey, there's a crystal in the background so you should have known to shoot the floor."

You're really revealing how short sighted your thinking is with this response, and again this is showing the problem is you.

So "path of progress" only exists from left to right? There is no "path of progress" in a vertical direction? The game moves in every direction, constantly! Do you really need a video game to tell you where to go at ALL TIMES? Destructible blocks in Metroid are peppered throughout the map like sores on a kid with chicken pox. It's not like you find one in one room and it's some esoteric design decision. They are everywhere, so be looking for them! It's part of the game, and it's spelled out from the very beginning.

This sentence here is, again, exactly why you shouldn't even be playing this game:
"Hey, there's a pillar in the background so you should have known to shoot the ceiling." or "Hey, there's a crystal in the background so you should have known to shoot the floor."

You're using the phrase "should have known" ... how is that a puzzle? That is hand holding. You're wanting the designers to have layouts in the environment that are literally like signs saying "DO THIS HERE."

No.

That doesn't require a shred of thought, even the slightest bit of observation, and it doesn't encourage you to explore and make logical deductions about the things you can try. Again, this game is not hard in this sense. By far most gamers are figuring it out, most people are digging the hell out of the game, and it's a tiny, TINY, group of people crying about not having the solution shown to them so they can't engage in the game with some pavlovian response ("I see crack ... me shoot crack then!"), instead of engaging your mind like a thoughtful person to figure it out yourself.

You and Jaffe are objectively wrong here.
 

kevm3

Member
You're really revealing how short sighted your thinking is with this response, and again this is showing the problem is you.

So "path of progress" only exists from left to right? There is no "path of progress" in a vertical direction? The game moves in every direction, constantly! Do you really need a video game to tell you where to go at ALL TIMES? Destructible blocks in Metroid are peppered throughout the map like sores on a kid with chicken pox. It's not like you find one in one room and it's some esoteric design decision. They are everywhere, so be looking for them! It's part of the game, and it's spelled out from the very beginning.

This sentence here is, again, exactly why you shouldn't even be playing this game:
"Hey, there's a pillar in the background so you should have known to shoot the ceiling." or "Hey, there's a crystal in the background so you should have known to shoot the floor."

You're using the phrase "should have known" ... how is that a puzzle? That is hand holding. You're wanting the designers to have layouts in the environment that are literally like signs saying "DO THIS HERE."

No.

That doesn't require a shred of thought, even the slightest bit of observation, and it doesn't encourage you to explore and make logical deductions about the things you can try. Again, this game is not hard in this sense. By far most gamers are figuring it out, most people are digging the hell out of the game, and it's a tiny, TINY, group of people crying about not having the solution shown to them so they can't engage in the game with some pavlovian response ("I see crack ... me shoot crack then!"), instead of engaging your mind like a thoughtful person to figure it out yourself.

You and Jaffe are objectively wrong here.

What is so hard for you to understand that at the beginning when they have you shooting hisswn blocks those blocks are CLEARLY DISTINCT FROM OTHER BLOCKS?


There's clearly a crack in those blocks. It looks distinctive from the indestructible floor and the ceiling. The path to progress is not tucked away on the side of the screen while two other 'doorways' exist on that same screen.

This following screenshot tells me, hey you probably don't have the weapons needed to progress in this zone. You probably missed something in the previous zone where you haven't even taken out the EMMI out yet. There's nothing here that says, hey, you need to shoot that completely indistinctive floor to progress

 
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The only ones whining and crying are the ones who can't take criticism of their sacred cow game. Shooting completely indistinctive floor and ceiling tiles to progress the game is bad game design period. Post some screenshots of Castlevania SOTN or Super Metroid where you have to hit completely normal ceiling or floor tiles with no visual distinction to progress to the next area
the criticism doesn't work, because the basis of the argument is weak. It's a case of "I'm not getting it, so it's bad"...

Metroid prioritizes exploring and figuring out ways to progress, so "shooting completely indistinctive floor and ceiling tiles to progress the game" isn't bad design at all, especially because the game gives you all the clues and tools necessary. It's the point of the game. Period. Metroid isn't Mega Man or Contra. In Metroid the whole world is a maze and you as the player need to solve this maze to progress. Part of this are environmental puzzles. This puzzle in particular is something most players will solve in a matter of seconds. You may need longer, but please don't motivate the devs to falsify Metroid in order to make the lowest common detonator enjoy the game more. Metroid should stay how it is. Maybe next time you will get an easy mode.
 

Dr Bass

Gold Member
The only ones whining and crying are the ones who can't take criticism of their sacred cow game. Shooting completely indistinctive floor and ceiling tiles to progress the game is bad game design period. Post some screenshots of Castlevania SOTN or Super Metroid where you have to hit completely normal ceiling or floor tiles with no visual distinction to progress to the next area
I'm not gonna do that because I'm not gonna play through the game for hours to grab screenshots for a dude who can't reason, but I can name a few places. There are sections in Brinstar where you need to bomb through walls in the pinkish area to get items and progress. Then there are places where you can bomb through the Chozo item rooms to get even deeper. Same thing with, I think it's still Brinstar, in the green areas where there is kind of a tall room. You need to bomb through the green bubbly looking tiles in both Metroid 1 and Super Metroid in various places. You need to roll around and bomb in places that look suspicious. There are tiles in Super Metroid that require you to shoot them with Super Missles. There is a section in Norfair where you need to use the spin attack to destroy some Chozo statue ruin things to go through the floor and progress. There is a section in Super Metroid where you need to roll up as a ball into a chozo statues hand to get it to come to life and march to an entire unseen area. I think there are some floor sections in that very same area you need to bomb to progress too without any kind of indicator. You need to TRY THINGS. Wanting all this hand holding when the hints are all there is pathetic.

I just recently played through Symphony of the Night, and there is area where there is just a giant wall that you can slash through with no indications thats what you need to do. Also SotN isn't quite as good as Metroid in the sense of needing to use your mind. :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:

Dread is hardly a sacred cow. That's a strawman argument. I have plenty of criticisms. I don't even care if people hate it. But I do mind stupidity and being obtuse. Blaming your own shortcomings on "bad game design" is hilariously absurd.

Again if you can't solve a Sudoku puzzle because you can't make logical deductions, that's not the fault of Sudoku. It's the exact same thing here. I'll refer to the school analogy again. It reminds me of kids crying why a certain homework task "isn't fair" while the rest of the class just shut up and did it and handed it in without issue. But that person keeps screaming and crying why it's not fair and everyone else just looks at them like they are ridiculous.
 

kevm3

Member
the criticism doesn't work, because the basis of the argument is weak. It's a case of "I'm not getting it, so it's bad"...

Metroid prioritizes exploring and figuring out ways to progress, so "shooting completely indistinctive floor and ceiling tiles to progress the game" isn't bad design at all, especially because the game gives you all the clues and tools necessary. It's the point of the game. Period. Metroid isn't Mega Man or Contra. In Metroid the whole world is a maze and you as the player need to solve this maze to progress. Part of this are environmental puzzles. This puzzle in particular is something most players will solve in a matter of seconds. You may need longer, but please don't motivate the devs to falsify Metroid in order to make the lowest common detonator enjoy the game more. Metroid should stay how it is. Maybe next time you will get an easy mode.

I don't need an easy mode. I need game design that makes sense. An easy mode would make enemies and bosses easier with low HP. I've played several metroidvanias and beat them including super metroid, castlevania: SOTN, axiom verge among others and I haven't encountered anything like this, so I don't need your explanation on what a 'true metroidvania is'. This sort of game design decision has nothing to do with metroidvania game design
 

Jeeves

Member
This following screenshot tells me, hey you probably don't have the weapons needed to progress in this zone. You probably missed something in the previous zone where you haven't even taken out the EMMI out yet. There's nothing here that says, hey, you need to shoot that completely indistinctive floor to progress

How long were you stuck here? This part had me fooled too for about 3 minutes. I was like "guess I need to come back later", but then I quickly realized there wasn't much else to do, so without looking at a guide I naturally came back to give this room a second pass, and I found the way.

You keep calling that part of the floor indistinct. But it's distinct in that it's thin and directly between you and progression to the rest of the room. Yes, the more obvious blocks to the right are the same way. Just a red herring until you revisit this room later.
 
I don't need an easy mode. I need game design that makes sense. An easy mode would make enemies and bosses easier with low HP. I've played several metroidvanias and beat them including super metroid, castlevania: SOTN, axiom verge among others and I haven't encountered anything like this, so I don't need your explanation on what a 'true metroidvania is'. This sort of game design decision has nothing to do with metroidvania game design
The design makes perfect sense. It's motivating to figure out a way to progress. The whole fun of the series stems from this design. The easy mode in the scenario wouldn't only make the enemies weaker and give you more HP, but also make the progression easier/more obvious.

This sort of game design decision has nothing to do with metroidvania game design

So you have never played Metroidvania because that is blatantly false. If you have honestly never encountered this then you are lying. Those games are full of those scenarios. In Super Metroid there is one of those moments right in the first 30 minutes of gameplay. What are you talking!?
 
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Dr Bass

Gold Member
What is so hard for you to understand that at the beginning when they have you shooting hisswn blocks those blocks are CLEARLY DISTINCT FROM OTHER BLOCKS?


There's clearly a crack in those blocks. It looks distinctive from the indestructible floor and the ceiling. The path to progress is not tucked away on the side of the screen while two other 'doorways' exist on that same screen.

This following screenshot tells me, hey you probably don't have the weapons needed to progress in this zone. You probably missed something in the previous zone where you haven't even taken out the EMMI out yet. There's nothing here that says, hey, you need to shoot that completely indistinctive floor to progress


I'm almost done responding here because this is silly, but I can't believe you're posting these two screen shots in DEFENSE of your position. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

That block is a PRIME suspect for shooting and looks EXACTLY like the type of situational destructible block in the first shot. It's a thin section of floor that leads to something below. Why on EARTH would there be a need for there to be a gap below the floor there, in that context, if you couldn't possibly do something to the blocks there? How can you NOT see that? Again, TRY THINGS. That is literally a 1:1 situation of the tutorial and you're using it to support your position! Again, that kind of layout isn't a guarantee that it's destructible but it's begging you to try it!

I think I'm good here. But you just keep on thinking this is "bad" when gamers all over the world understand it, solve it, get through it with no problems, and love it! Yeah. The problem is Metroid all right! The entire world is wrong. You and a guy who made a hack and slash 15 years ago are right.
 
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Dr Bass

Gold Member
How long were you stuck here? This part had me fooled too for about 3 minutes. I was like "guess I need to come back later", but then I quickly realized there wasn't much else to do, so without looking at a guide I naturally came back to give this room a second pass, and I found the way.

You keep calling that part of the floor indistinct. But it's distinct in that it's thin and directly between you and progression to the rest of the room. Yes, the more obvious blocks to the right are the same way. Just a red herring until you revisit this room later.
Hey, hey now. No deductive reasoning in MY video game! :messenger_pouting:

Just kidding, well done. This game was pretty good eh?
 

Dr Bass

Gold Member
I'd be right there with the criticisms if they were about the fake lava from Metroid 1. Anyone remember that?
Yeah totally. And some of the floors you bomb in that game were absolutely harder to find than any subsequent Metroid game ever had. But I think that's part of the fun of the game type. You should literally "feel" like you're on an alien planet exploring and trying to figure things out. From that sense, Dread is dead simple and too easy IMO. Metroid 1 and Super required more experimentation and had more esoteric puzzles. But you know, I beat Metroid 1 when I was like 6 and Super as an early teen, without hints, and without guides. And Dread is easier. Hearing old men literally cry about the "bad design" of Dread blows my mind, when it's easier, and far more "hand holding" than what 6 year old me figured out oh so long ago in the same series. And I think most everyone is in the same bucket.

The fake lava though ... yeah .. that was a tough one. :messenger_tongue: I seem to remember though, couldn't you see "below" it? Like it was hovering, so might not actually be lava? Maybe that's after you already jump into it. Either way, still totally solvable and beatable.
 
The fake lava though ... yeah .. that was a tough one. :messenger_tongue: I seem to remember though, couldn't you see "below" it? Like it was hovering, so might not actually be lava? Maybe that's after you already jump into it. Either way, still totally solvable and beatable.
the same argument for the lava I could totally understand, Metroid 1 in general is brutal, even required me to draw a map as the game's layout is rather confusing...

... but this??? lol
Kinda worrying that some players seem to don't put any attentiveness to the game they're playing.
 

Jeeves

Member
Hey, hey now. No deductive reasoning in MY video game! :messenger_pouting:

Just kidding, well done. This game was pretty good eh?
I'm still working my way through the game but I've been very impressed with it. It doesn't lead you by the nose and sometimes I have to stop and think about where I need to go or how to apply my abilities. But without any guide or hints I'm almost at the end of the game now and haven't gotten stuck once. The balance and pacing is masterful and it's obvious the game was play-tested to hell and back. There's not even a day 1 patch for this game.

With the level of care that clearly went into crafting the game world, it's kind of absurd to watch people ranting about it being an example of poor game design. And then accusing fans of treating Metroid as a sacred cow when in reality Metroid fans are historically the first to rip apart any game in the series that they feel doesn't live up to the name.
 

Xellos

Member
I agree with Jaffe on this. The blocks are a lighter color than the rest but it's not obvious that they're breakable. Previous Metroid games (Super and later) did this too but near the start of the game the breakable blocks usually had a completely different tile than the rest. You can see the cracked/bomb tiles from Super and on here and here.

Would have been better to give stronger visual clues until the scan ability is available. I'm a bit surprised that the ability isn't given sooner, considering how early it is handed out in Samus Returns. This is not a major complaint, just something that could have been handled better.
 

Jeeves

Member
I have yet to find anything in Dread as obscure as this:



...and Super Metroid is still my favorite game ever, so...
I remember this. Super's a great game but this moment is just about indefensible. The screen doesn't scroll to the other side of the room before you break this and there is truly no cue anywhere in the room to try attacking that wall. You can see on the map that there's an adjacent room and that's it. This is much more in line with the misplaced complaints in this thread.
 

tygertrip

Member
It's not a dead end though. And after backtracking a bit you probably forget what the latest room you unlocked was, so you don't know which room in the maze is the one that is the dead-end. And a lot of people just skim text and don't read, or forget since you would have been told this at the very least 30 minutes ago - or at the worst a week, months, years earlier if the player put the game down for a time. Or the player might not know English very well and are trying to learn it, or are too young to effectively read. Good design is intuitive. It shouldn't take a text box.
Plenty of games hold your hand for you. Heaven forbid us old-timers have a series from our youth, that keeps the defining elements of that series.
 

tygertrip

Member
A lot of people have beat Metroid now without the need or want for a guide.
it doesn’t seem to be an issue. The whole point is exploration and reaching new areas when you receive new power ups.

it’s like games use to be about REALLY solving puzzles not super guided way points and hand holding.
My man. I beat the original Metroid with no maps or guides when it was new. These kids nowadays need to follow an arrow everywhere, LOL. TBF, I would never put that much effort into a game now, but I'm not 12 years old anymore either....
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I don't need an easy mode. I need game design that makes sense. An easy mode would make enemies and bosses easier with low HP. I've played several metroidvanias and beat them including super metroid, castlevania: SOTN, axiom verge among others and I haven't encountered anything like this, so I don't need your explanation on what a 'true metroidvania is'. This sort of game design decision has nothing to do with metroidvania game design
Super Metroid is littered with regular blocks you have to shoot or bomb to go forward, it’s throughout the whole game, there are fake blocks as well where you pass through walls/roof/floor. But you wanted screens so here are some quick screen grab from a youtube playthrough, I could very likely post 100 of these examples but you get the idea.








 

Jeeves

Member
I'm pretty sure people would foam at the mouth if Super was released today.



And that was enough for me to figure it out 27 years ago.
I got it too, but...that instance feels more like a dirty trick compared to Dread's similar situations.
 
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