Support NeoGAF

[RedVIper]

Hard to disagree.

The advancements that have been made this gen are mostly in the graphical department, something that I don't find that important anymore.

Actually innovative games seem to be mostly indies on PC.

 

[Mass Shift]

HA! Happens every new generation! Developer looks at the new hardware and throws cold water on everything.

Meanwhile, those AAA studios that know what the fuck they're doing? They're busy pitching and planning the next great games we're going to play.

 

[Fake]

My take is next gen will be just like this gen just with better quality texture, bigger open worlds and more detailed models, you wont see some kind of next revolution in gaming. I'm also type of person that believes unique gameplay and mechanics comes from designers rather than tech. I also believe next gen will be worse for western developers because as they get more powerful tech they will more interested giving us even more hyper realistic graphics for sake of immersion game gameplay and everything else will be afterthought.

I disagree. PS4 gave me Kingdom Hearts Collection, Dragon's Crown? and Nino at 60, so why not PS5 give me a boost on western developers games?
Unless they want to stay in the past like Game Freak with that Pokemon Shield/Sword they don't have anythink to worry about.

I'll sure replaying those games I mention on PS5. PRO already run them in 4k60.

 

[PocoJoe]

Hows faster load speed, a bit faster cpu speed and some better light sources ( even if they can get that to work which is atm highly doubtful in any way ) gamechangers?

It's just a enhancement of what we already got.

What games cannot be done on the PS4 that could be done on the PS5? nothing.

This exactly what they mean.

The whole "oh we love everything, everything is super exciting guys is just your typical filler of please don't hate us because we have a opinion".

It's like saying something critical but first have to list u love everything about the person u say something critical about otherwise u get shit on type of communication on top of it.

First we must define what gamechanger would even be.

IMO we are already past the point that there would be anything radical to be offered.

100% Photorealiastic graphics, some haptic full body suit, brain interface etc would be gamechangers and honestly we arent there yet.

So what we get is what is possible at the moment

 

[Gargus]

Consoles won't change much if the games dont.

We have some motion control in games, little vr, and a couple niche things here and there but really games dont change much anymore. And consoles won't change much unless the market demands it, plus keeping things similar and more uniform allows for easier and more comfortable game development.

 

[Shangounchained]

More memory isn't going to make these systems any more impressive than they already come off as. More GDDR6 is not a game-changing technology.

Also RAM is not really the most important component; CPU features, memory bandwidth, cache, and system documentation/ease-of-access are arguably at least as important if not moreso. PS2 had less RAM than GC and OG Xbox but could do particle effects better than any other system that gen (go see the fog in Silent Hill 2 on PS4 vs. Xbox port; massively cut down). Dreamcast had a weaker CPU than PS2 but had better resolution output and texturing capabilities (Silent Hill 3's one of the few PS2 games that has upper-tier texture work compared to something like Shenmue II). SNES had a weaker CPU and less/slower RAM bandwidth than Genesis but better color palette capabilities and Mode 7 built-in, etc.

RAM's never been the main factor in a console, and it never well. No point loading 48GB of RAM into a system with a processor that won't be fast or efficient enough to make use of all of that steadily.



Debatable. SSD's will speed up loads of assets from storage to memory, but it's not going to "free up" GDDR6 memory because for starters, NAND is magnitudes slower than GDDR6 (or any DRAM really) in latency. Secondly, NAND has lower data bus bandwidth per chip than GDDR6 (8-bit/16-bit vs. 32-bit), let alone most DRAM (with 64-bit data buses). Third, most NAND besides Intel's Optane Persistent Memory is not byte-addressable, so it can't have its code executed from storage (vs. NOR flash, which can), and while it's readable at a page level like DRAM, is magnitudes slower (while still losing the ability to be byte-addressable like DRAM and NOR flash).

We COULD maybe get some 8-16GB or even 24-32GB Persistent Memory-style 3D Xpoint stuff in these systems, but latencies would reduce them to a very large L4/L5 cache since IIRC Persistent Memory latencies are currently around 350ns (for comparison, GDDR6's is around 10ns if not less per chip, and something like L1 cache is within single digits (usually less than 1ns)). But at least this would make them byte-addressable for writes, which is a big step up from traditional SSDs.

Processors have always been efficient problem with 360 and PS3 for example was memory capacity developers wanted to put more stuff but couldn't they had to resolve to tricks, PS1 2mb ps2 32mb PS3 512mb PS4 8gb it's always 16x the memory even Sony wanted to put 4gb on PS4 and changed ideas at the end! And it paid of it doesn't matter what you do you can't escape memory, in graphics memory is king all those textures polygons all that game all that frame exists on memory, ram is the game and it's the only thing that can tell old from new, when the PS4 came out all the bravado was about 8gb and how they have incredible polycounts on character models and so forth
And yes you can have 48gb but it's how fast you deliver the 48gb and don't tell me this bullcrap I hear everyday about next gen can't look much different from current that's a lazy idea and lazy thinking if people thought like that we'd still be playing DOS looking games.

 

[Shangounchained]

I'm not talking about the jump from Ps4 to Pro.
I'm talking about the Jump from Ps3 to 4.

Which means nicer looking games, better graphics, better resolutions, more consistent framerates (hopefully more 60fps stuff), faster loading times and devs being able to accomplish things they couldn't do on consoles before (just like Battlefield finally being able to bring 64 player matches to consoles this gen).

But much like the jump from Ps3 to 4 I don't expect it to be this mind melting leap forward. People complained about PS4 not being a big enough jump from Ps3 and I expect the same will happen with Ps5, specially early on with cross gen games and ports.

PS3 to PS4 was a convincing jump because it was 512mb to 8gb ram 16xthe rumours now are 16gb ram, the games look good already so they think they don't need 16x the memory to sell a console and I think this is will be the Achilles on the next gen consoles it's ram and all companies don't want to talk about it, they just keep throwing banter about SSD and loading times out there.

 

[Shangounchained]

I don't remember anybody since I was a kid cared about loading times as a special something I mean who are this rainbow looking clowns who give a fuck about loading times,
They showed Spiderman loading at 8 seconds difference and everybody starts yapping about it being the holy grail,
seriously we have a big problem, Sony and ms are laughing you clowns off at how gullible you are there's more important stuff than loading times talk about pixels and polygons, you can load an ugly looking game quick it's still an ugly looking game!

I don't care how long it loads.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

PS3 to PS4 was a convincing jump because it was 512mb to 8gb ram 16xthe rumours now are 16gb ram, the games look good already so they think they don't need 16x the memory to sell a console and I think this is will be the Achilles on the next gen consoles it's ram and all companies don't want to talk about it, they just keep throwing banter about SSD and loading times out there.

Dude, do you even check on the pricing for these things? They can't PUT 128GB of RAM into these systems. Even at half the going rate of a single GGDR6 chip, they would be paying $1280 for 128 1GB (8 Gbit) GDDR6 RAM chips. Even with 16Gbit (2GB) chips, they'd be paying north of $960.

Do you see how ridiculous this idea of there needing to be 16x RAM over this gen is yet? Sony and MS aren't taking that big a bath on these systems. Also PS4 lucked out with 8GB of GDDR5 RAM, they were perfectly willing to go ahead with 4GB (which would've still be 16x over the VRAM in PS3).

You. Are. Not. Getting. 128. GB. Of. GDDR6. Memory. For. Next. Gen. You're gonna get 16-24GB at most. And like it. Unless you wanna pay $1500 for a PS5 or Scarlett (I sure as hell don't).

 

[Shangounchained]

Dude, do you even check on the pricing for these things? They can't PUT 128GB of RAM into these systems. Even at half the going rate of a single GGDR6 chip, they would be paying $1280 for 128 1GB (8 Gbit) GDDR6 RAM chips. Even with 16Gbit (2GB) chips, they'd be paying north of $960.

Do you see how ridiculous this idea of there needing to be 16x RAM over this gen is yet? Sony and MS aren't taking that big a bath on these systems. Also PS4 lucked out with 8GB of GDDR5 RAM, they were perfectly willing to go ahead with 4GB (which would've still be 16x over the VRAM in PS3).

You. Are. Not. Getting. 128. GB. Of. GDDR6. Memory. For. Next. Gen. You're gonna get 16-24GB at most. And like it. Unless you wanna pay $1500 for a PS5 or Scarlett (I sure as hell don't).

As I said they can't put 128gb but that's not my problem it's their problem. Talking about SSD loading times and a and CPU isn't solving it graphics need ram games need ram a fucking next generation console has to have next generation ram capacity, forget the other stupid shit they convince you about it's all a load of shit. It's ram and ram and ram until they talk about it then I'll listen. There's no point of a hypersonic processor with less ram it's a fart........

 

[prag16]

As I said they can't put 128gb but that's not my problem it's their problem. Talking about SSD loading times and a and CPU isn't solving it graphics need ram games need ram a fucking next generation console has to have next generation ram capacity, forget the other stupid shit they convince you about it's all a load of shit. It's ram and ram and ram until they talk about it then I'll listen. There's no point of a hypersonic processor with less ram it's a fart........

I'm all for deriding consoles as potato boxes (the Jaguar nonsense this gen was horrendous), but to claim that PS5 needs too have 128GB GDDR6 in order to be considered a legitimate upgrade... is truly deranged.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

This is not a slight, but most of their games would work just fine on the ps360.

I loved the serious sam games, the hotline miami series and probably more, but these aren't the most demanding games, so obviously there aren't much benefits to beefier consoles.

 

[existensmaximum]

They are right, next gen is pretty much a PS4 + or a budget PC.

And still, the next God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted and The Last of Us will look better than anything on PC!

 

[Bkdk]

That’s what I think as well. Coming gen will have the smallest difference compared to this one. At least the new consoles should become more affordable then ever. Will upgrade my PC first and see if I’ll buy the new consoles afterwards.

 

[Shangounchained]

I'm all for deriding consoles as potato boxes (the Jaguar nonsense this gen was horrendous), but to claim that PS5 needs too have 128GB GDDR6 in order to be considered a legitimate upgrade... is truly deranged.

They said 8gb on PS4 was deranged

 

[DanielsM]

We are way past the point of diminishing returns. I would not be surprised by new games coming out for the PS5 in 2033-2035. Once you factor in moore;s law going the way of the dinosaur people better start checking themselves at the door.

 

[prag16]

They said 8gb on PS4 was deranged

I doubt many if any would have referred to it that way. Yes, it was more than most people expected. But it was double what most people expected. Not 4-5x what most people expected, as with the absurd post I was responding to.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Hard to disagree.

The advancements that have been made this gen are mostly in the graphical department, something that I don't find that important anymore.

Actually innovative games seem to be mostly indies on PC.

Do you have some examples of innovative PC games? I'm not even sure what that means anymore when it comes to games. This gen has seen a plethora of good games on consoles. When people are worried about innovation I don't usually agree. If innovation means extra accessories and peripherals to manage while playing then I'm out. I'm not interested in playing Nintendo Labo and I'm not a VR person. I just want good games and yes visuals are an important part of that. But I also want want compelling and fun gameplay, well thought out and implemented level design, and a story that gives me a reason to care. Lastly I want to be surprised and have some freedom to explore. Those can be in any genre and don't need innovation to be good imo.

Some of the most pleasant surprises for me this gen were indie games: Inside, Little Nightmares, Rime, The Sexy Brutale and Unravel. I also really enjoyed Ori and the Blind Forest and Sunset Overdrive. Mario Kart 8 is nearly the perfect Mario kart game and I'd argue the tracks are as innovative as they come. I'd also argue that Sea of Thieves and Quantum Break are innovative but people see what they want to see.

 

[RedVIper]

Do you have some examples of innovative PC games? I'm not even sure what that means anymore when it comes to games. This gen has seen a plethora of good games on consoles. When people are worried about innovation I don't usually agree. If innovation means extra accessories and peripherals to manage while playing then I'm out. I'm not interested in playing Nintendo Labo and I'm not a VR person. I just want good games and yes visuals are an important part of that. But I also want want compelling and fun gameplay, well thought out and implemented level design, and a story that gives me a reason to care. Lastly I want to be surprised and have some freedom to explore. Those can be in any genre and don't need innovation to be good imo.

Some of the most pleasant surprises for me this gen were indie games: Inside, Little Nightmares, Rime, The Sexy Brutale and Unravel. I also really enjoyed Ori and the Blind Forest and Sunset Overdrive. Mario Kart 8 is nearly the perfect Mario kart game and I'd argue the tracks are as innovative as they come. I'd also argue that Sea of Thieves and Quantum Break are innovative but people see what they want to see.

Well everything is derivative to a degree.

No I don't mean accessories, although VR is definitely innovation and there have been some interesting games that make use of it coming out.

My favorite game right now is probably factorio, the game is without a doubt innovative, sure the developers had some inspiration from some minecraft but it's really not even close.

Yes most innovation is going to come from indie/smaller devolopers, risk taking and multi million dollars AAA projects just aren't compatible.

I really fail to see how quantum break is innovative ( Never played it though)

 

[hunthunt]

Its normal to find last gen and next gen identical if your better looking game looks like a flash cartoon from 1998. My 10 years old Toshiba Satellite could aswell be compared with a Nasa supercomputer because I only use Office, FIrefox and Gmail.

 

[Shangounchained]

I doubt many if any would have referred to it that way. Yes, it was more than most people expected. But it was double what most people expected. Not 4-5x what most people expected, as with the absurd post I was responding to.

You can never have enough ram the idea that you think 128gb is deranged is astonishing, nothing is impossible, big problem is people get used to 8gb and think there's little improvement to be done, there's alot of room to improve volumetric rendering smoke fire and so forth fluids, destructible environments, there's alot,. Your too accustomed to 8gb and that's your loss

 

[prag16]

You can never have enough ram the idea that you think 128gb is deranged is astonishing, nothing is impossible, big problem is people get used to 8gb and think there's little improvement to be done, there's alot of room to improve volumetric rendering smoke fire and so forth fluids, destructible environments, there's alot,. Your too accustomed to 8gb and that's your loss

You probably mean "you can never have too much RAM". Not "you can never have enough". Of course you can have enough. On a PC currently, 16GB is "enough" for at least 95% of gaming situations. 32GB is "enough" for 100%. If you're rolling with 128GB in your PC rig right now, hey, whatever floats your boat. You can tell yourself it's 'necessary' if you like.

But any expectation that a home console released in 2020 "should" have 128GB of RAM (or that it's even feasible for this to be done at that time) is, yes, deranged.

 

[diffusionx]

They said 8gb on PS4 was deranged

No, they didn't. Let's put it into perspective. One of the best looking games around that time was Crysis 3 (it's still one of the best looking games, which says a lot about how this gen has gone). That game's recommended specs were 4GB. So the PS4 had 2x the RAM of what a high-end game at the time was recommending, and as others have said, they were ready to go with the same amount.

Right now, some games are coming out with recommended specs of 16GB, and you're saying the next console needs 8x what a high-end, 2019 PC game running on max settings needs. Keep in mind that the next round of consoles are almost certainly going to be less powerful than a high-end PC running one of those games.

The max this system will have is 32GB, but as low as 16.

 

[Shangounchained]

You probably mean "you can never have too much RAM". Not "you can never have enough". Of course you can have enough. On a PC currently, 16GB is "enough" for at least 95% of gaming situations. 32GB is "enough" for 100%. If you're rolling with 128GB in your PC rig right now, hey, whatever floats your boat. You can tell yourself it's 'necessary' if you like.

But any expectation that a home console released in 2020 "should" have 128GB of RAM (or that it's even feasible for this to be done at that time) is, yes, deranged.

The reason pc games don't require more than 16gb is because current consoles can only handle 5-6gb of vram per frame so it's pointless to have 16gb as the games are made to use 5gb on consoles and ported to pc, when next gen consoles come out with 16gb then that'll be the norm if they come out with 128gb then that will be the norm in the industry, you can't say "have enough ram" there's alot of improvement to be done in games maybe to u current graphics are enough but not me.

 

[Three]

I've always talked about memory but idiots online keep talking about SSD, die size, CPU GPU teraflops.... The most important component in a game is ram and both Sony and Microsoft never talk about it because they know it's a sensitive issue ram capacity is what differentiates old consoles from new, I don't care about silly ssd loading times and raytracing shadows.

No, its the bits! My SNES is 16bit and destroys any 8bit console.

 

[prag16]

The reason pc games don't require more than 16gb is because current consoles can only handle 5-6gb of vram per frame so it's pointless to have 16gb as the games are made to use 5gb on consoles and ported to pc, when next gen consoles come out with 16gb then that'll be the norm if they come out with 128gb then that will be the norm in the industry, you can't say "have enough ram" there's alot of improvement to be done in games maybe to u current graphics are enough but not me.

True, to an extent, however that's not entirely how that works. Nevertheless, do you have any idea how much 128GB RAM costs? Way too fucking much for a living room box. And the 8GB in the consoles is a unified pool. I can guarantee that NO game is using 5-6GB for the frame buffer alone.

 

[Shangounchained]

True, to an extent, however that's not entirely how that works. Nevertheless, do you have any idea how much 128GB RAM costs? Way too fucking much for a living room box. And the 8GB in the consoles is a unified pool. I can guarantee that NO game is using 5-6GB for the frame buffer alone.

They do use 5gb you can put any pc game that's on console aswell and check the vram usage it's always 5-6 nothing above 8, unless for special cases like pc only games, this is also why even gpus from both nvidida and and are still 8gb, it's consoles which are pulling the industry down to 8gb and besides I know they can't afford 128gb gddr6 but why do you think they said they'll use the ssd as virtual ram and rumours point to 64-80gb of ssd virtual ram there's something about that ssd and how they'll engineer it to be close to 128gb of total ram, it's always a console tradition that new hardware should have 16x the ram

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

Honestly, I'm excited about the new controller. One of the things that really pulled me in with the Modern Warfare beta was the punch I felt in my controller each time I shot. I think that this may have been a sign of things to come, and that excites me a lot. It feels so much more immersive, and I hope they hit it out of the park with that one.