DF: The Matrix Awakens: Demo vs UHD Blu-ray Movie, Series S Cutbacks, SSD Speed Tests

Alex explains the point. Many people (on NeoGAF too) were under the impression that UE5 can only run on PS5 because it needs very high SSD speeds. This has now been debunked repeatedly. That's the point.
Again, you and Alex are doing the same mistake as I described. I am sorry to be blunt but it is a very stupid mistake.

It's like if Alex was testing unpatched PS4 Spiderman on PS5 with different SSDs and concluding PS5 I/O was useless for gaming.

I'll explain it to you another time: In all engines, including UE5, you can set a maximum I/O limit. It's obvious that for Matrix demo they set a rather low I/O limit in order to be run by Xbox Series consoles.
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
For what it's worth...
Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.
Edit: It’s a bug.


The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there seems to be more details on PS5 on far away objects, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 and while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.

The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there sena to be more details on PS5 on far away object, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.
DF won't say anything about that.
Or you show or you will wait forever.
 
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Again, you and Alex are doing the same mistake as I described. I am sorry to be blunt but it is a very stupid mistake.

It's like if Alex was testing unpatched PS4 Spiderman on PS5 with different SSDs and concluding PS5 I/O was useless for gaming.

I'll explain it to you another time: In all engines, including UE5, you can set a maximum I/O limit. It's obvious that for Matrix demo they set a rather low I/O limit in order to be run by Xbox Series consoles.
They set it to 300 MB/s so that it can be run by Series consoles? Good joke I guess.
 

Riky

MSFT$




I took these from the XSX version, its seems they dont have noise shown in your video. Perhaps hes using the series S version.

Lots of fanboy accounts faking stuff out there, that's why it's best to stick with the likes of DF who have some credibility.
 

dr guildo

Member
Lots of fanboy accounts faking stuff out there, that's why it's best to stick with the likes of DF who have some credibility.
Not same location, and no proof it is not using photomode instead of dronemode unlike KTG's video.
During photomode, the speed cam is less than 5km/h, and in drone mode it's at least x5 that speed.
 
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Lots of fanboy accounts faking stuff out there, that's why it's best to stick with the likes of DF who have some credibility.
King Thrash is one of the worst console warriors on the internet. Showing the XSS version and claiming it's XSX is something that would perfectly fit his behavior.

He also couldn't bother to use the correct capture settings, so his Xbox footage looks washed out. He does this 100% on purpose.
 

Riky

MSFT$
I really don't understand what's even the point of benchmarking SSDs here. I mean, except in order to create a narrative about the supposed useless (again) PS5 I/O speed.

But again, this demo has being coded to run on slow PC SSDs so it's limited internally by the engine. Whatever the speed of the SSD you test, it will never be faster than the maximum internal speed limit.

We know when they develop a game they set a I/O speed limit. Insomniac used 20MB/s on PS4 Spiderman, which will be the same limit used on the game running on PS5 via BC (without a patch).

The same way we know Ratchet and clank has a software bottleneck as they were far from using all of SSD speed. They had said that (that the PS5 I/O was actually faster than what they could render with it) and it was tested by DF (but of course with all their wrong conclusions).

So it's obvious why DF do this, but their logic is flawed. The same way it's wrong to assume XSS isn't limiting next-gen graphics by doing an analysis based on a game runnning on all hardware as devs will need to restrict their engine (mostly available memory) somehow in order to run on XSS.

So you're happy to accept the PS5 i/o isn't being fully used and that low spec PC parts are a limit but you then go on to rant about Series S where SFS and Mesh Shaders (memory and bandwith saving features) aren't being used and multiplatform games target lower PC specs than the console.
You're as transparent as a very thin piece of ice.
 

elliot5

Member
King Thrash is one of the worst console warriors on the internet. Showing the XSS version and claiming it's XSX is something that would perfectly fit his behavior.

He also couldn't bother to use the correct capture settings, so his Xbox footage looks washed out. He does this 100% on purpose.
Seriously should be a banned source for technical comparisons. If analista de bits is somehow idk how the fuck king trash is greenlit
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.

The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there seems to be more details on PS5 on far away objects, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.
He will be waiting forever. DF has done two videos on this, one a 50 minute reaction video and found nothing. I dont expect anything more.

NXGamer NXGamer will probably cover this.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
King Thrash is one of the worst console warriors on the internet. Showing the XSS version and claiming it's XSX is something that would perfectly fit his behavior.

He also couldn't bother to use the correct capture settings, so his Xbox footage looks washed out. He does this 100% on purpose.
The black noise is there on Xbox Series X.

XSX


PS5


Edit: It’s a bug. Play through the intro instead of going directly to explore city to fix it.

RT differences, clock tower

 
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Loxus

Member
For anyone not going out and trying to disprove his findings and just jumping to fanboyism.

At the 8:04 mark you can see more detail rooms in the windows on PS5 compared to Xbox.

Also Digital Foundry didn't do much side by side comparisons to know what different between to two.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
For anyone not going out and trying to disprove his findings and just jumping to fanboyism.

At the 8:04 mark you can see more detail rooms in the windows on PS5 compared to Xbox.

Also Digital Foundry didn't do much side by side comparisons to know what different between to two.
He's banned here too lmao
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
UE5 brings some really good tech to the table, and will spawn some amazing multiplat games, no doubt.
But both Sony and (I hope) MS have some cards up their sleeve. If the speed advantage only ends up as slightly faster loading, I'll loose my respect for all the devs. They should exploit all the strong features of the consoles, that's the whole point of having a console.
The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.
 
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Darsxx82

Member
For anyone not going out and trying to disprove his findings and just jumping to fanboyism.

At the 8:04 mark you can see more detail rooms in the windows on PS5 compared to Xbox.

Also Digital Foundry didn't do much side by side comparisons to know what different between to two.
No, there is no more on PS5, only the interiors are random. You can perfectly see that in the closest right building there are more rooms on XSX while it's off on PS5....

Exactly like the moments where there is a lack of loading of details in the distance of buildings sometimes in PS5 and sometimes in XSX
 

elliot5

Member
Arguing about noise when this shows very little effort went into the interiors.
Of course Little effort went in the interiors are illusions and procedurally generated. Doing that for a whole city this scale would be a huge waste of time for something basically nobody is going to look at from the street level
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
Xmas 2021 where there are no games to talk about or play so we discuss graphical issues on an interactive demo.

interesting stuff though, hopefully DF pick upon it.
 

Loxus

Member
No, there is no more on PS5, only the interiors are random. You can perfectly see that in the closest right building there are more rooms on XSX while it's off on PS5....

Exactly like the moments where there is a lack of loading of details in the distance of buildings sometimes in PS5 and sometimes in XSX
Look at the rooms above the middle cup sign.

That's not the same thing as your thinking.
 
Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.

The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there seems to be more details on PS5 on far away objects, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.
That's the problem with your approach, you can even confirm that what is shown in the video and instead of saying "I disagree with his conclusions, but the data is there and can be confirmed" you, and apparently even the board, choose to treat the information as "unproven" until you get told the same thing by DF.

It shows that the board does have a tendency to discourage anything that will criticize xbox or show its weakness, DF often do the same thing as well.

Now what you say may be true about there being some display bugs, but would you have expected the same leniency on DF's part of the PS5 had similar issues? or would we have gotten a day 1 concern video about PS5's rendering and RT capabilities?... If I was the gambling type I would put a lot of money on DF covering the PS5's problems in a 5 hour long special video cast.

It may be bugs, but this is not the information we have at the moment, we can't make deductions on wishful thinking.
 

Shmunter

Member
The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.
Holy crap. 20gig/s ssd is too fast for a GPU? Let’s cancel 400+gig/s gddr ram then, GPU can’t use it. 😂

You’re forever confounded by GPU vs memory aren’t you.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
That's the problem with your approach, you can even confirm that what is shown in the video and instead of saying "I disagree with his conclusions, but the data is there and can be confirmed" you, and apparently even the board, choose to treat the information as "unproven" until you get told the same thing by DF.

Read his post again. He's saying the 'forum' deemed it unproven but his results show otherwise.

Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.
 

jose4gg

Member
NXGamer NXGamer Can you please take a look at the video of King and confirm or deny its findings?

And btw, WTF is this forum?

Like I get King isn't playing to be an unbiased character, he likes PlayStation more, he let everyone notice it, but in his video, there are multiple recordings of his findings. Do we need to wait until DF or NXGamer, TO EVEN DISCUSS IT?

This shit sounds like we need to wait for CNN, FOX, OR any major news to report on something we can look at with our own eyes...

Do we need to make every thread include a "reputable" game magazine in order to comment on a look of a game or the fun of it?
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
That's the problem with your approach, you can even confirm that what is shown in the video and instead of saying "I disagree with his conclusions, but the data is there and can be confirmed" you, and apparently even the board, choose to treat the information as "unproven" until you get told the same thing by DF.

It shows that the board does have a tendency to discourage anything that will criticize xbox or show its weakness, DF often do the same thing as well.

Now what you say may be true about there being some display bugs, but would you have expected the same leniency on DF's part of the PS5 had similar issues? or would we have gotten a day 1 concern video about PS5's rendering and RT capabilities?... If I was the gambling type I would put a lot of money on DF covering the PS5's problems in a 5 hour long special video cast.

It may be bugs, but this is not the information we have at the moment, we can't make deductions on wishful thinking.
Don’t pull me into that console war nonsense, I’m just posting because I could see the things the guy talked about in the video that wasn’t allowed here, I would’ve stayed silent if I were trying to disprove him. I have all findings on Twitter untouched directly uploaded from both consoles but I’m not any more qualified or less unproven than that guy, I simply think DF or NX should keep digging into the demo instead of me trying to pretend I know anything about why the differences are there.
 
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Boglin

Member
Holy crap. 20gig/s ssd is too fast for a GPU? Let’s cancel 400+gig/s gddr ram then, GPU can’t use it. 😂

You’re forever confounded by GPU vs memory aren’t you.
I think he's saying in a roundabout way that 16GB of memory is already far more than what is usable by these GPUs.
If there is already memory sitting idle because the GPUs are too weak to utilize it then being able to swap out assets quickly with a fast SSD won't offer much benefit.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.
absolutely this.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
NXGamer NXGamer Can you please take a look at the video of King and confirm or deny its findings?

And btw, WTF is this forum?

Like I get King isn't playing to be an unbiased character, he likes PlayStation more, he let everyone notice it, but in his video, there are multiple recordings of his findings. Do we need to wait until DF or NXGamer, TO EVEN DISCUSS IT?

This shit sounds like we need to wait for CNN, FOX, OR any major news to report on something we can look at with our own eyes...

Do we need to make every thread include a "reputable" game magazine in order to comment on a look of a game or the fun of it?
I accept a discussion where ideas are taken from king thrash only if we can also post misterxmedia
 

RaySoft

Member
The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.
Not everything that's streamed is GPU data though, but yeah, there are more than enough bandwith left to fill any render pipeline.
For a long time devs have been constrained with flipping data bugets and making compromises everywhere resulting in ideas ending on the cuttingroom floor for one or many reasons, but now you have more than enough headroom to make you imagination run wild... and it's this imagination I want to see this gen.
 

Shmunter

Member
I think he's saying in a roundabout way that 16GB of memory is already far more than what is usable by these GPUs.
If there is already memory sitting idle because the GPUs are too weak to utilize it then being able to swap out assets quickly with a fast SSD won't offer much benefit.
16gig is not enough, that’s why games still load and stream assets during gameplay.

Processing whether it be general purpose, or gfx is a completely different conversation to the data sets available, yet have a symbiotic relationship.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Holy crap. 20gig/s ssd is too fast for a GPU? Let’s cancel 400+gig/s gddr ram then, GPU can’t use it. 😂

You’re forever confounded by GPU vs memory aren’t you.
The GPU is bottlenecked by memory bandwidth not memory size. It has nothing do with how fast you can pull assets. The GPU still has to render everything. For example, the Series S has the same 2.4 GBps of SSD speeds but it is tflops and bandwidth starved. It will never outperform a 6 or 8 tflops GPU just because it has a 2.4 GBps ssd. I mean if that were the case, the series s wouldve been running BC X1 games at X1x settings, not X1s settings like it does today.

What Cerny's IO allows them to do is create different experiences like ratchet. But trust me, ratchet's graphics are still limited by what the GPU can do. You arent going to get 1000 more NPCs and objects on screen just because the SSD can stream them in and out really fast. The GPU still has to render whats on screen at any given moment, it really doesnt matter if the SSD can load the next 1000 items in a second, it still has to render whats there first.
 
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Darius87

Member
The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.
This is such a nonsense it doesn't even makes sense :messenger_grinning_smiling:
GPU's renders per frame basis, data needed for modern GPU is way larger then what any SSD can stream per frame.
 

Shmunter

Member
NXGamer NXGamer Can you please take a look at the video of King and confirm or deny its findings?

And btw, WTF is this forum?

Like I get King isn't playing to be an unbiased character, he likes PlayStation more, he let everyone notice it, but in his video, there are multiple recordings of his findings. Do we need to wait until DF or NXGamer, TO EVEN DISCUSS IT?

This shit sounds like we need to wait for CNN, FOX, OR any major news to report on something we can look at with our own eyes...

Do we need to make every thread include a "reputable" game magazine in order to comment on a look of a game or the fun of it?
I recall the king guy pointed out the spaceship clipping through the trees on the halo reveal where DF didn’t even notice. Eyebrow raising moment.

Edit : Just watched his Matrix comparison posted above. If he hasn't fudged this by e.g using xss footage, then oh boy shit is gonna be spicy for DF to brush this under the carpet.
 
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jumpship

Member
Yup. Some people got crucified for speaking about how GPU rendering was more important than "SSD rendering".

I’m not sure you’ll find a single post with someone claiming the PS5 has ‘SSD rendering’ whatever that means or that it’s more important than GPU rendering. You may have interpreted this way as there was a lot of excitement surrounding the ssd at the time but it was never about it rendering anything directly (obviously)


The rate at which data can be streamed to the GPU is overkill for what the GPU can render. The bottleneck has always been the GPU from day 1. A lot of people just failed to accept that and now here we are.

In the future, gamers should put more emphasis on what the GPU can do as opposed to any other hardware piece on the consoles/PC. Now that we are doing full on ray-traced lighting, it becomes even more important.

Both Sony and Microsoft mention one of the reasons for only doubling the Ram from last gen (8-16GB we normally expect an 8x increase) is due to the ssd installed in the systems. The ssd will effectively be used as a ram multiplier. Yes the GPU can only render what’s available in ram at any given time but the ssd can be used to load data in and out of ram far far faster than ever before. You’re right this doesn’t make the GPU itself any better but will allow games to appear to have more Ram than if there was no ssd.
 

Shmunter

Member
The GPU is bottlenecked by memory bandwidth not memory size. It has nothing do with how fast you can pull assets. The GPU still has to render everything. For example, the Series S has the same 2.4 GBps of SSD speeds but it is tflops and bandwidth starved. It will never outperform a 6 or 8 tflops GPU just because it has a 2.4 GBps ssd. I mean if that were the case, the series s wouldve been running BC X1 games at X1x settings, not X1s settings like it does today.

What Cerny's IO allows them to do is create different experiences like ratchet. But trust me, ratchet's graphics are still limited by what the GPU can do. You arent going to get 1000 more NPCs and objects on screen just because the SSD can stream them in and out really fast. The GPU still has to render whats on screen at any given moment, it really doesnt matter if the SSD can load the next 1000 items in a second, it still has to render whats there first.
Correct. Ssd doesn’t enhance the GPU, it it enhances the memory size. More memory and all that entails.
 

ParaSeoul

Member
I recall the king guy pointed out the spaceship clipping through the trees on the halo reveal where DF didn’t even notice. Eyebrow raising moment.
On their main videos they try not to be to negative I noticed,on their podcast thing they're a lot more candid calling the new Pokemon just a mess on all aspects.
 
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