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DF: The Matrix Awakens: Demo vs UHD Blu-ray Movie, Series S Cutbacks, SSD Speed Tests

Boglin

Member
16gig is not enough, that’s why games still load and stream assets during gameplay.

Processing whether it be general purpose, or gfx is a completely different conversation to the data sets available, yet have a symbiotic relationship.
I'm not saying I agree but he has said before these console's even launched that they're going to be bottlenecked by rendering power.
It implies that he believes the additional video memory won't help with graphics performance, and doesn't think it's going to be a 3GB GTX 1060 vs 6GB GTX 1060 type of situation.

Streaming assets quickly can reduce or eliminate loading times, or it can lower the burden on the memory. The memory benefit is moot if there is already a surplus of memory.

Like I said, I'm not saying that I agree with the premise that 16GB is enough, but if it is, then the conclusion about the SSD's speed being overkill is completely reasonable.
 
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I accept a discussion where ideas are taken from king thrash only if we can also post misterxmedia
Here is the thing, ktg has his issues, but he sees things and call them out, misterxmedia just straight up make up secret xbone GPU rumors, you can see this type of fake technical argumentation from the xbox side to this day, tolerated on this forum... You may disagree with the conclusions, at least he does not constantly concern troll the PS consoles like DF does, so I'm not sure why their analysis it placed above his, I mean he saw things and showed them.

Some may not like how he interprets what is shown, and this is fair game, but he sis not invent anything.
absolutely this.
You accept "analysis" from vfxveteran and you refuse KTG? how ironic, that guy seems to have credentials, but he is so wrong, I would not let him anywhere close to a project I lead.
Don’t pull me into that console war nonsense, I’m just posting because I could see the things the guy talked about in the video that wasn’t allowed here, I would’ve stayed silent if I were trying to disprove him. I have all findings on Twitter untouched directly uploaded from both consoles but I’m not any more qualified or less unproven than that guy, I simply think DF or NX should keep digging into the demo instead of me trying to pretend I know anything about why the differences are there.
I get it, no problem... I'm not talking about the warring stuff (his opinion on what he saw)... but he saw something and showed it, it's not like he made up the pop-ins, noisy images and missing RT effects on the series X.
 

Shmunter

Member
I'm not saying I agree but he has said before these console's even launched that they're going to be bottlenecked by rendering power.
It implies that he believes the additional video memory won't help with graphics performance, and doesn't think it's going to be a 3GB GTX 1060 vs 6GB GTX 1060 type of situation.

Streaming assets quickly can reduce or eliminate loading times, or it can lower the burden on the memory. The second benefit is moot if there is already a surplus of memory.

Like I said, I'm not saying that I agree with the premise that 16GB is enough, but if it is, then the conclusion about the SSD's speed being overkill is completely reasonable.
That sort of conflated conversation only exists in his (and maybe others) heads.

It is correct that access to data does not improve performance, I.e. framerates, pixel counts, effects, scene complexity, etc - they are a product of the processing power.

However scene variety & asset quality, animation, transitions between locations, etc. are a product of memory.

The most powerful GPU can’t render more than a pixel if it has insufficient memory. And a weak GPU can’t render photorealistic images in real-time no matter how much memory it has access to.

It is a combination of both that create the worlds on our screens.
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
I've personally argued with many people that the GPU still needs to render everything and regardless of SSD, io, and everything else is still the limiting factor. People have and do think there is magic in the ps5 somewhere and the GPU doesn't matter.
has been the PR pushing from Cerny and his presentation they moved all the emphasis on the console I / O, leaving out, or rather not delving into, the most important side (the GPU) understandably because it is there (in the I / O) that they had the only net hw advantage. It caused a media short circuit in the console fans where many think, clearly mistakenly, that the GPU becomes an almost secondary part in the console's hardware design. All the games (bar none) clearly show that they are bigly wrong
 

MonarchJT

Banned
Here is the thing, ktg has his issues, but he sees things and call them out, misterxmedia just straight up make up secret xbone GPU rumors, you can see this type of fake technical argumentation from the xbox side to this day, tolerated on this forum... You may disagree with the conclusions, at least he does not constantly concern troll the PS consoles like DF does, so I'm not sure why their analysis it placed above his, I mean he saw things and showed them.

Some may not like how he interprets what is shown, and this is fair game, but he sis not invent anything.

You accept "analysis" from vfxveteran and you refuse KTG? how ironic, that guy seems to have credentials, but he is so wrong, I would not let him anywhere close to a project I lead.

I get it, no problem... I'm not talking about the warring stuff (his opinion on what he saw)... but he saw something and showed it, it's not like he made up the pop-ins, noisy images and missing RT effects on the series X.
ktg it is exactly like mosterxmedia there is nothing more to say so I would not read even two words lined up by that person and bring it as proof of anything it is a insult to the seriousness of the discussion.


As for VFX and the hatred it attracted from someone, I don't care and I'm not going to side with it ... I support his point of view because I feel exactly like he. If you go back in my post history you will find my pre-launch posts where I write exactly that the GPU will usually be the biggest limit long before reaching the cap of the famous and very fast i/o. All the games simply proved how right he (VFX veteran) was and let's get right on what and how many fantasies people wrote about ue5 in combination with the I / O speed of the PS5. Fantasies that turned out to be simply wishful thinking and that highlighted (the demo clearly shows it) that the limit is the GPU and that even with half or even 1/3 of the PS5 i/o speed the perfomance would not have changed.
 
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FrankWza

Member
Alex explains the point. Many people (on NeoGAF too) were under the impression that UE5 can only run on PS5 because it needs very high SSD speeds. This has now been debunked repeatedly. That's the point.
It was made for both systems and is an indicator of what each system is capable of in the near future. The PS5, in this demo, comes out at the very least even but probably slightly ahead. And according to your post it doesn’t even utilize the biggest single advantage the PS5 has in its I/O. You think anyone is upset about that besides you and the ones that thumb up your comments?
 

Darius87

Member
more memory means more details and higher quality assets in a scene, more complexity, more unique objects, more everything, a level designer eventually will need more RAM vs compute of todays HW which have 16GB of RAM, faster SSD's means more RAM.

PS5 is capable of holding a second of data in RAM with it's 5.5GB/s SSD, when devs will utilize streaming we will see games with better GFX then matrix i have no doubt.
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
PS5 actually has hardware advantages due the GPU being clocked higher.
And the I/O is indeed faster.

There is nothing imaginary about that.
i fix for you...advantage compared to a GPU with same capability and cu's configuration with lower clock. And yes the PS5 i/o is absolutely faster but but real data showing that the extra speed over the competition isn't bringing any graphical advantage to the console. At least looking at how ue5 streaming work
 
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ethomaz

Banned
i fix for you...advantage compared to a GPU with same capability and cu's configuration with lower clock. And yes the PS5 i/o is absolutely faster but but real data showing that the extra speed over the competition isn't bringing any graphical advantage to the console. At least looking at how ue5 streaming work
So what you listed before about PS5 was true and not imaginary.
Thanks.

BTW for this Matrix demo the I/O is capped at 10MB/s per frame according to Epic... it doesn't mean it will be for all games make using UE5... devs can choose to go way higher.
 
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Shmunter

Member
i fix for you...advantage compared to a GPU with same capability and cu's configuration with lower clock. And yes the PS5 i/o is absolutely faster but but real data showing that the extra speed over the competition isn't bringing any graphical advantage to the console. At least looking at how ue5 streaming work
I don’t think suggesting Ue5 streaming is capped at 300 meg/s and that’s the end of it forever. That’s today, things move on tomorrow.

Should a 1st party dev use us5 on PS5, they may flex that 10 fold for all we know. The engine is scalable from phones to new gen systems. Nothing ever stays the same.
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
I recall the king guy pointed out the spaceship clipping through the trees on the halo reveal where DF didn’t even notice. Eyebrow raising moment.

Edit : Just watched his Matrix comparison posted above. If he hasn't fudged this by e.g using xss footage, then oh boy shit is gonna be spicy for DF to brush this under the carpet.
He’s exaggerating some things but yeah there are differences easily seen if you have both consoles and can do quick HDMI A-B switching. The black noise is not pretty, small pixels moving around, essentially looks like severe GPU issues but only appears on objects behind a window.
Edit: It’s a bug that seems to appear if you choose explore city directly. I could trigger it with explore city and remove it with the chase intro sequence.
 
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Snake29

Member
Alex explains the point. Many people (on NeoGAF too) were under the impression that UE5 can only run on PS5 because it needs very high SSD speeds. This has now been debunked repeatedly. That's the point.

So you are saying people were claiming that UE5 was PS5 exclusive?

Are you really trying to say that? The demo was exclusively developed for the PS5. Nobody ever said that this whole engine was only developed for the PS5 and nothing more. Was the first UE exclusive for any PS console? Were UE3 and 4 exclusive? Back the. They showed the demos also only on the PS consoles.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I get it, no problem... I'm not talking about the warring stuff (his opinion on what he saw)... but he saw something and showed it, it's not like he made up the pop-ins, noisy images and missing RT effects on the series X.
People thought he faked it by using a Series S. The black noise is there on my XSX though, RT differences too. Edit: Bug.
I couldn’t notice any pop in though, I’ll have another look.
 
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It was made for both systems and is an indicator of what each system is capable of in the near future. The PS5, in this demo, comes out at the very least even but probably slightly ahead. And according to your post it doesn’t even utilize the biggest single advantage the PS5 has in its I/O. You think anyone is upset about that besides you and the ones that thumb up your comments?
The context of all this is that back in 2020, Sweeney sold everyone on the power of the 22GB/s Cerny monster by heavily implying that it is needed to run the first UE5 demo that was shown. Many people (on GAF too) believed him. It turned out to be a blatant lie (classic Sweeney), that's why Alex brought up the topic.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
I don’t think suggesting Ue5 streaming is capped at 300 meg/s and that’s the end of it forever. That’s today, things move on tomorrow.

Should a 1st party dev use us5 on PS5, they may flex that 10 fold for all we know. The engine is scalable from phones to new gen systems. Nothing ever stays the same.
yeah they could stream whatever they want with that i/o but maybe with the next console....the PS5 GPU drop already to 21 fps at 1080p with the "slow" ue5 streaming . And that's where VFX veteran and many other was right
 

FrankWza

Member
The context of all this is that back in 2020, Sweeney sold everyone on the power of the 22GB/s Cerny monster by heavily implying that it is needed to run the first UE5 demo that was shown. Many people (on GAF too) believed him. It turned out to be a blatant lie (classic Sweeney), that's why Alex brought up the topic.
Alex found out that the first UE5 demo didn’t utilize the PS5 I/O more than the Matrix demo? How? He has access to the first demo?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I've personally argued with many people that the GPU still needs to render everything and regardless of SSD, io, and everything else is still the limiting factor. People have and do think there is magic in the ps5 somewhere and the GPU doesn't matter.


wizard of oz dorothy GIF
 

MonarchJT

Banned
So what you listed before about PS5 was true and not imaginary.
Thanks.

BTW for this Matrix demo the I/O is capped at 10MB/s per frame according to Epic... it doesn't mean it will be for all games make using UE5... devs can choose to go way higher.
true If you compare the gpu with the same GPU with a lower clock yes .

about the demo : with that GPU? Did you saw how the demo run on these console ? yes you can stream more probably if you want lower the res to 720p and want a true cinematic experience locked a 24fps lol
 
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ethomaz

Banned
with that GPU? Did you saw how the demk run on these console ? yes probably if they want lower the res to 720p and want a true cinematic experience locked a 24fps lol
Or they could optimize it like they said they have very little time to make the demo run.
Each game is a different game after all... you will see lower resolutions/framerate ones and you will higher resoltuions/framerates ones just like you will some using more or less I/O.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The context of all this is that back in 2020, Sweeney sold everyone on the power of the 22GB/s Cerny monster by heavily implying that it is needed to run the first UE5 demo that was shown. Many people (on GAF too) believed him. It turned out to be a blatant lie (classic Sweeney), that's why Alex brought up the topic.

I don't think the bolded happened at all! Like it literally NEVER happened!
 

FrankWza

Member
You first stop making dumb replies. Some of you guys are speaking to a handful of people and then making it seem like 50% of NeoGaf were making those statements. It's the definition of a strawman.
Yeah like the one guy who said something in the forza thread about how the reason there were so many players were review copies. Still gets mentioned with a wink emoji.
 

jose4gg

Member
I recall the king guy pointed out the spaceship clipping through the trees on the halo reveal where DF didn’t even notice. Eyebrow raising moment.

Edit : Just watched his Matrix comparison posted above. If he hasn't fudged this by e.g using xss footage, then oh boy shit is gonna be spicy for DF to brush this under the carpet.

Exactly, his whole video about how previous Halos have visual elements that are better than the Infinite is completely backup by video comparisons. Clip after clip.

He isn't saying something "an engineer at Sony told him", nor trying to pass as an Insider...
 

MonarchJT

Banned
Or they could optimize it like they said they have very little time to make the demo run.
Each game is a different game after all... you will see lower resolutions/framerate ones and you will higher resoltuions/framerates ones just like you will some using more or less I/O.
Optimize to a point where you magically go from 21fps @ 1080p to stable 30fps at 4k while streaming double polygons? As I have already said .... it will simply not happen and you better start accepting it before you are further disappointed. The GPU of the PS5 (and of the xsx as much as it is important) have already been brought to their knees by this demo where fundamental parts are still missing like dynamics lighting , ai, weather, particles effects etc etc etc stuff that further deteriorates performance (already very low) but indispensable in today's AAA titles. There will be developers who are smart enough to make less stuff look simply more beautiful on screen (naughty dog and SSM first among all Sony first parties) the obsession with the PS5 i / o and wanting to see a stream of data in a game not possible on other devices has given the head of many. But the GPU power of these consoles is what it is and the I / O won't make a 10tf variable GPU a 20tf one
 
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Shmunter

Member
Exactly, his whole video about how previous Halos have visual elements that are better than the Infinite is completely backup by video comparisons. Clip after clip.

He isn't saying something "an engineer at Sony told him", nor trying to pass as an Insider...
Funny enough NX just released a video on halo comparing reveal vs retail. Pretty much inline with kings observations all the way back then even. 🤔
 
Alex found out that the first UE5 demo didn’t utilize the PS5 I/O more than the Matrix demo? How? He has access to the first demo?
Yes, he found out by running the PC demo which is actually heavier than the PS5 demo. It never used much bandwidth.
I don't think the bolded happened at all! Like it literally NEVER happened!
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps5s...ording-to-epic-games-ceo-tim-sweeney.1541181/

Sweeney is a grade A bullshitter, I'll give him that.
 
You first stop making dumb replies. Some of you guys are speaking to a handful of people and then making it seem like 50% of NeoGaf were making those statements. It's the definition of a strawman.
You
No one has ever said that
Me
I have personally experienced many people saying that
You
Strawman

I'm quite confident you don't know the definition of strawman argument.

Also if you look at these tech threads it's the same 50 people commenting in every one. So yes if 5 people said it that's 10% of the gaf community that comments in these threads said it.
 
Funny enough NX just released a video on halo comparing reveal vs retail. Pretty much inline with kings observations all the way back then even. 🤔
Trash warrior made a video about how the release version looks better than the 2020 reveal version? No way.

I just realized this reads like I'm dissing NXG while I actually mean Trash dude and his Trash videos :messenger_beaming: NXG is dope.
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
My problem with this line of thinking that Sony's I/O makes no difference is that it would mean Sony's developers and engineers are retarded.
devs absolutely not ..engineers did a bet that i don't think is paying back enough. These consoles are thought and engineered years in advance, and every developer makes bets on what they think the next "big thing" will be it, often happens that not all bets are 100% winning
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
No insult. Is it an insult to call a duck a duck?
Doubling down? Again, I responded to a part of your post, with your own words and saying that this “SSD magic, GPU does not matter” was arguing against a made up straw man. I did not say your entire set of arguments was a straw man.

Sure, I could have spent a few more words saying the same thing, but you going on the offence (it would have been funny if you also took a dig at hot tempered warriors) still feels uncalled for to me.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
devs absolutely not ..engineers did a bet that i don't think is paying back enough. These consoles are thought and engineered years in advance, and every developer makes bets on what they think the next "big thing" will be it, often happens that not all bets are 100% winning
I think you are a bit too quick to call it a failed bet. So far their smaller and quite similarly performant chip (higher frequency over bigger chip) is allowing them to ship a single SoC specs to many customers without segmenting the market in performance tiers. This even with them spending more Silicon on the I/O… a bet you are quite eager to call a losing one a bit too quickly…
 

MonarchJT

Banned
I think you are a bit too quick to call it a failed bet. So far their smaller and quite similarly performant chip (higher frequency over bigger chip) is allowing them to ship a single SoC specs to many customers without segmenting the market in performance tiers. This even with them spending more Silicon on the I/O… a bet you are quite eager to call a losing one a bit too quickly…
I don't know where you read that I think it's a failed bet. I said thats probably not paying them back as they expected...obviously I was speaking from a performance point of view.....honestly after seeing ue5 real perfomance on those machine i absolutely think that the i / o in the PS5 is overkill compared to the GPU perf but this is my personal opinion
 
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SlimySnake

Member
You
No one has ever said that
Me
I have personally experienced many people saying that
You
Strawman

I'm quite confident you don't know the definition of strawman argument.

Also if you look at these tech threads it's the same 50 people commenting in every one. So yes if 5 people said it that's 10% of the gaf community that comments in these threads said it.
Since you go around throwing insults on this “many people saying that” you must have lots of receipts, right?
Its time you two took this to PMs.
 

Boglin

Member
devs absolutely not ..engineers did a bet that i don't think is paying back enough. These consoles are thought and engineered years in advance, and every developer makes bets on what they think the next "big thing" will be it, often happens that not all bets are 100% winning
But surely the engineers who are guided by the input of devs, and some of which are devs themselves, would know years in advance if it was possible to make use of the extra speed.

It just doesn't seem likely to me that they would spend the millions on R&D, design the I/O block on the APU which takes additional die space, design a custom SSD controller, add 512MB of DRAM cache, and give up nearly 200GB of storage space vs an off-the-shelf storage solution, only to find out it literally offers zero benefits outside of reducing load times by a couple of seconds.

I find it far more believable to take the lead engineer at his word about why they did it,
which was clearly laid out in the road to PS5.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
But surely the engineers who are guided by the input of devs, and some of which are devs themselves, would know years in advance if it was possible to make use of the extra speed.

It just doesn't seem likely to me that they would spend the millions on R&D, design the I/O block on the APU which takes additional die space, design a custom SSD controller, add 512MB of DRAM cache, and give up nearly 200GB of storage space vs an off-the-shelf storage solution, only to find out it literally offers zero benefits outside of reducing load times by a couple of seconds.

I find it far more believable to take the lead engineer at his word about why they did it,
which was clearly laid out in the road to PS5.
and what real advantages are you seeing in the engine that most of all had to show these differences. I, none apart from the obvious limitations of the gpu
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
and what real advantages are you seeing in the engine that most of all had to show these differences. I none
For now… generation is young to judge the 2 TFLOPS of extra sustained performance + VRS + SFS, so why are you so hastily judging the competition’s strengths? If this demo proves Song wrong on the SSD I/O, does it prove them right on the GPU Frequency debate?
 
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Clear

Member
Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.

The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there seems to be more details on PS5 on far away objects, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.

Its stupid. I don't doubt its there but you can't read anything into it. Its just thresholds being set lower for some reason. So it could be a bug as you suggest or even simpler something in a config file that's leaving some variables as set for Series S.

The fuzzy speckles are just denoising being turned off for the object. And given how large they are on-screen it explains why there's no performance variation because the overall frame needs to be pretty simple in order to make them stand out like that. So gains/losses are going to be marginal whether the pass is performed or not.
 
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