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DF: The Matrix Awakens: Demo vs UHD Blu-ray Movie, Series S Cutbacks, SSD Speed Tests

Haggard

Member
and what real advantages are you seeing in the engine that most of all had to show these differences. I none
First party games like Ratchet & Clank or Demon`s Souls have been using the ability to drop and repopulate the RAM near instantaneously all the time but you choose to base your opinion solely on a single multiplat engine.....
What exactly is overkill about an actually useful tool that makes developer`s lifes easier?
 
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MonarchJT

Banned
For now… generation is young to judge the 2 TFLOPS of extra sustained performance + VRS + SFS, so why are you so hastily judging the competition’s strengths? If this demo proves Song wrong on the SSD I/O, does it prove them right on the GPU Frequency debate?
because meanwhile the ps5 i/o subsystem is absolutely great ..It is highly tied to GPU performance and to be honest I don't see how the GPU can gain 20% or 30% extra to make the I / O and its throughput a differentiating factor from a graphical point of view. What if Sony simply wanted the console to load all games or whatever faster than any other?
 

MonarchJT

Banned
First party games like Ratchet & Clank or Demon`s Souls have been using the ability to drop and repopulate the RAM near instantaneously all the time but you choose to base your opinion solely on a single multiplat engine.....
What exactly is overkill about an actually useful tool that makes developer`s lifes easier?
so instant loading ? ok
 
Reply Banned
Doubling down? Again, I responded to a part of your post, with your own words and saying that this “SSD magic, GPU does not matter” was arguing against a made up straw man. I did not say your entire set of arguments was a straw man.

Sure, I could have spent a few more words saying the same thing, but you going on the offence (it would have been funny if you also took a dig at hot tempered warriors) still feels uncalled for to me.
You should spend a few more words to save confusion. Regardless there is no strawman. People said that.
Since you go around throwing insults on this “many people saying that” you must have lots of receipts, right?
Now why the fuck would I care enough about internet video game arguments to save quotes for a later date? Just implying that I would do that I consider a far greater insult then dick head.
I'm flabbergasted by the idea of suggesting someone look for specific posts from over a year ago.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes, he found out by running the PC demo which is actually heavier than the PS5 demo. It never used much bandwidth.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps5s...ording-to-epic-games-ceo-tim-sweeney.1541181/

Sweeney is a grade A bullshitter, I'll give him that.

What Tim said there was 100% a fact. How was literally any of it BS?

devs absolutely not ..engineers did a bet that i don't think is paying back enough. These consoles are thought and engineered years in advance, and every developer makes bets on what they think the next "big thing" will be it, often happens that not all bets are 100% winning

I don't know where you read that I think it's a failed bet. I said thats probably not paying them back as they expected...obviously I was speaking from a performance point of view.....honestly after seeing ue5 real perfomance on those machine i absolutely think that the i / o in the PS5 is overkill compared to the GPU perf but this is my personal opinion

It PAINS me to death to see people act as if this current generation of consoles are almost done. We've LITERALLY just started this gen. We haven't even seen 2nd generation games on the console yet. So how can you say the bolded with any confidence?
 
Outside of warping around in sci-fi games what situations would call for 5.5GB/s streaming that wouldn't just overwhelm the PS5 GPU like we see here with drops to 21fps?

I guess we've been limited by slow loading for so long now that it's hard for me to see the potential advantages but I hope it's more than the rifts in R&C that were limited to set pieces or linear levels when you could only trigger rifts by interacting with something.

I guess warping around at will between different worlds or through time would be impossible on a HDD without keeping two or more copies of a level in RAM so we could see something like that which has the potential to add something new to gameplay (I'm thinking a much less limited version of the Effect and Cause level in TF2).

On the other hand the fast loading is game changing enough for me though and I wouldn't go back to a slow HDD now.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
Its stupid. I don't doubt its there but you can't read anything into it. Its just thresholds being set lower for some reason. So it could be a bug as you suggest or even simpler something in a config file that's leaving some variables as set for Series S.

The fuzzy speckles are just denoising being turned off for the object. And given how large they are on-screen it explains why there's no performance variation because the overall frame needs to be pretty simple in order to make them stand out like that. So gains/losses are going to be marginal whether the pass is performed or not.
What’s denoising? Haven’t heard that before.
It’s really odd anyhow, only shows when you look through a window. I don’t understand how Sosokrates Sosokrates don’t see any of this on his XSX though, I literally see it everywhere. Could some console setting remove it? System resolution, hdr, Dolby vision etc etc 🤔
Edit: Sorry. Bug.
 
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Haggard

Member
so instant loading ? ok
Sidestepping and downplaying instead of answering is one way to admit to not actually having facts to base an opinion on.

You could`ve just said "i don`t like the color" would`ve been more honest probably.
 
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Clear

Member
What’s denoising? Haven’t heard that before.
It’s really odd anyhow, only shows when you look through a window. I don’t understand how Sosokrates Sosokrates don’t see any of this on his XSX though, I literally see it everywhere. Could some console setting remove it? System resolution, hdr, Dolby vision etc etc 🤔

Its basically part of ray-tracing where you have insufficient rays to fully construct the object, so a second pass is used to interpolate between the points, fill in the gaps and form a finished object. It looks to me whatever UE5 does is analogous to this and as a result you are seeing the same sort of visual artefacting.
 

MonarchJT

Banned
What else a faster I/O system and SSD supposed to do instead of "instant loading"? Water my plants?
"it will load more and more polygons into the scene and games will look lots better than any other slower i/o" .....this was pretty much what the promoters of all of this said ..... obviously excluding the 100% most important GPU from the equation. Many have tried to explain to these people how things would have turned out instead ..... and now that we have tangible proofs .... what I hear from these people is ... "maybe optimizing" "then you will see the first party" "it's still too early in the gen to show the true power of streaming more data". Now by the way ... I completely agree that an I / O subsystem that has double the performance than another, if matched by a GPU with double the performance will obviously stream and render more stuff. But this is clearly not the case
 
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Bogroll

Likes moldy games
What’s denoising? Haven’t heard that before.
It’s really odd anyhow, only shows when you look through a window. I don’t understand how Sosokrates Sosokrates don’t see any of this on his XSX though, I literally see it everywhere. Could some console setting remove it? System resolution, hdr, Dolby vision etc etc 🤔
I see it clearly on mine too. It seems just like its some bug.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Read the thread. Most people understood it as "even high-end PCs can't run this because their I/O is too slow". That's what Sweeney was selling. And it not only turned out to be bullshit, it wasn't even close. Ten year old SSDs have enough bandwidth to run UE5 stuff, at least at 30 fps.

I read the thread. I would say those people are stupid then and have reading comprehension issues. Or they are console warriors trying to win a dumb argument. Tim never said PCs couldn't run it. He actually literally said the exact opposite. It's right there in that thread in that same post lol. Tim Sweeney said this....

Sony is pioneering here with the PlayStation 5 architecture. It's got a God-tier storage system which is pretty far ahead of PCs, [but on] a high-end PC with an SSD and especially with NVMe, you get awesome performance too."
 
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Boglin

Member
and what real advantages are you seeing in the engine that most of all had to show these differences. I, none apart from the obvious limitations of the gpu
I never put much stock into the idea that UE5 was THE streaming engine that's going to push the limits of the PS5. Sony's best graphical showpieces in the past were done using their own, in-house engines and I imagine that the opinions of those developers who designed those engines carried a lot of weight with the design decisions behind the PS5.

It's pretty reasonable to assume that 1st year, cross-gen, and multiplatform games might not be the best things to show the limits of new hardware with exclusive features.

I think the core of our disagreement will boil down to what I think constitutes better graphics.

My line of thinking could be demonstrated with a hypothetical game similar to The Medium which allowed you to switch worlds at a push of the button without a loading screen. If you're able to stream the second world into memory fast enough, then you would not need to keep both worlds in memory simultaneously. This would double your availability memory for each world.
So then the question becomes, "can these new consoles render a game with better graphics using 16GB vs 8GB of memory?" If yes, then a fast enough SSD can indirectly increase rendering performance by freeing up memory.

If the SSD is too slow in this scenario, you'll have to suffer stuttering or pop-in which I would consider "worse graphics", so the faster SSD would still show a real, visual benefit.
 
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ktg it is exactly like mosterxmedia there is nothing more to say so I would not read even two words lined up by that person and bring it as proof of anything it is a insult to the seriousness of the discussion.


As for VFX and the hatred it attracted from someone, I don't care and I'm not going to side with it ... I support his point of view because I feel exactly like he. If you go back in my post history you will find my pre-launch posts where I write exactly that the GPU will usually be the biggest limit long before reaching the cap of the famous and very fast i/o. All the games simply proved how right he (VFX veteran) was and let's get right on what and how many fantasies people wrote about ue5 in combination with the I / O speed of the PS5. Fantasies that turned out to be simply wishful thinking and that highlighted (the demo clearly shows it) that the limit is the GPU and that even with half or even 1/3 of the PS5 i/o speed the perfomance would not have changed.
close , seem to have imaginary details advantage and an i/o so fast that draw triangles directly into the display even before the gpu think them :D
I think it depends how a scene is built, if more objects can be brought in fast enough while others are moved you essentially have more memory available to display objects at a given time... Or save on LODs with high performance culling.

How relevant is it? I can't tell if it even has meaningful real-world implications.
People thought he faked it by using a Series S. The black noise is there on my XSX though, RT differences too. I couldn’t notice any pop in though, I’ll have another look.
That was my first thought, but then I remembered that he only has a series X.
 
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Boglin

Member
I think it depends how a scene is built, if more objects can be brought in fast enough while others are moved you essentially have more memory available to display objects at a given time... Or save on LODs with high performance culling.
With more memory you can have an increased quality or variety of animations as well.
In the end, the ways that technical resources are used are decided by creative needs and less barriers will always be better.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This thread shows people are willing to argue about anything. Can't ya'll just be impressed with the UE5 tech and what it brings to the table for all gaming platforms?

 

Sosokrates

Member
What’s denoising? Haven’t heard that before.
It’s really odd anyhow, only shows when you look through a window. I don’t understand how Sosokrates Sosokrates don’t see any of this on his XSX though, I literally see it everywhere. Could some console setting remove it? System resolution, hdr, Dolby vision etc etc 🤔
I literally posted pictures.....
 
I've personally argued with many people that the GPU still needs to render everything and regardless of SSD, io, and everything else is still the limiting factor. People have and do think there is magic in the ps5 somewhere and the GPU doesn't matter.
You can have a billion triangles with one item repeated a million times or a million items repeated 1000 times.

The end result has the same amount of triangles... Yet they don't look the same (imagine a forest with the same tree repeated all over and another one with mostly different trees because the system can stream them on demand... Same for rocks, houses, other vegetation, etc.)
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I literally posted pictures.....
These?




I took these from the XSX version, its seems they dont have noise shown in your video. Perhaps hes using the series S version.
They show no noise at all. I’m just trying to figure out why there is nothing at your end but me and others are seeing exactly what the biased guy showed.
Maybe there is some console setting that can affect it?
Edit: Seems to be a bug related to the explore city option in the main menu.
 
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Sosokrates

Member
These?

They show no noise at all. I’m just trying to figure out why there is nothing at your end but me and others are seeing exactly what the biased guy showed.
Maybe there is some console setting that can affect it?

If we can match the location I will post some more. It could be the lighting, because there is only one light source (the sun) so depending on its position, it will change the lighting.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
If we can match the location I will post some more. It could be the lighting, because there is only one light source (the sun) so depending on its position, it will change the lighting.
Yeah maybe you can show the map. But I’ll restart the game and console first just to rule out simple things, I’ve had it on quick resume and it is a demo after all.

Seems to be a bug. It disappeared when I restarted everything. Doing some researching at the moment lol
 
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Darsxx82

Member
These?

They show no noise at all. I’m just trying to figure out why there is nothing at your end but me and others are seeing exactly what the biased guy showed.
Maybe there is some console setting that can affect it?
I have tried. It seems to happen in some interiors and not in others.
Buildings where everything is correct and others where it is not. That would explain that in his captures it will not be appreciated and they are correct.

In different buildings, specific elements present that black noise and when you move away it appears and disappears without distance being the reason. It looks like a bug and they are not geometric objects.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
The context of all this is that back in 2020, Sweeney sold everyone on the power of the 22GB/s Cerny monster by heavily implying that it is needed to run the first UE5 demo that was shown. Many people (on GAF too) believed him. It turned out to be a blatant lie (classic Sweeney), that's why Alex brought up the topic.

Another one of his "making Sony the hero moments" LOL. Those emails that were released should have opened everyone's eyes to that fact that some marketing was going on there.

With that said, they did say the streaming pool was small on the original demo.

At any rate, Epic seems to make a good engine that developers like and can get quite a bit out of. Should be an exciting time for us. To me this demo looks good on everything, there is some noise on XSS at certain moments, but I wouldn't say it is any worse than WDL (I assume just the way RT is going to work on a 4TF GPU).
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
I have tried. It seems to happen in some interiors and not in others.
Buildings where everything is correct and others where it is not. That would explain that in his captures it will not be appreciated and they are correct.

In different buildings, specific elements present that black noise and when you move away it appears and disappears without distance being the reason. It looks like a bug and they are not geometric objects.
Yup! I just got rid of the noise, restarted the console and game. Gone! Then it came back when I went into the menu, clicked to go back to main menu and then explore city. Going through the Matrix intro again right now to see if it’s the transition from intro to explore that fix it and the quick play to explore that trigger it.
 
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Heads up, the thread about that video got closed because he was deemed to be unproven and biased.

For what it’s worth I double checked at home and the black noise he talk about is there, in every window, on Xbox. Like this guy I have videos but wait for DF. Or look yourself, free demo and it’s easily seen. My highly uneducated guess is that it has to do with transparency, the noise sits on the window glass somehow, and is easily seen on bright object inside a room. It’s there occasionally on PS5 too but only slightly seen at the edges on objects when you move the camera. Maybe it’s related to the motion blur? If the camera is still things look alright on PS5 while it’s noisy ”ants war” on Xbox.

The ray-tracing issues he talks about, yeah there seems to be more details on PS5 on far away objects, I have pics on this but wait for DF.

I also noticed reflections breaking up on Xbox but not on PS5. Again I have videos but DF has to get food on the table too.

All this could be simple graphics bugs or something else, we’ll see what DF or maybe NX has to say.
DF won't want to show any of those differences. They already decided both versions were virtually identical except "denoising" difference. You won't get anything more from them.

By the way the transparency stuff is interesting because an ex PS5 software engineer Matt Hargett specifically talked about that when talking about RDNA2.

 

Fredrik

Gold Member
The black noise is a bug, confirmed.



The only thing I’ve done here is going back to the main menu and choosing explore city.

That triggers the black noise.

If you go back to the main menu and go through the intro with the shooting it’ll be gone.

I’m guessing it’s that denoiser thing that don’t get set up properly when you choose explore city, a messed up settings file or something.

Edit: Only show how easy it is for misinformation the spread when the consoles are this close, a bug is all it takes for videos and picture comparisons to flood the discussions and give birth to all kinds of tech explanations.
I’ve edited my previous posts. I’ll look into the other differences now. 👍

 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
The GPU is bottlenecked by memory bandwidth not memory size. It has nothing do with how fast you can pull assets. The GPU still has to render everything. For example, the Series S has the same 2.4 GBps of SSD speeds but it is tflops and bandwidth starved. It will never outperform a 6 or 8 tflops GPU just because it has a 2.4 GBps ssd. I mean if that were the case, the series s wouldve been running BC X1 games at X1x settings, not X1s settings like it does today.

What Cerny's IO allows them to do is create different experiences like ratchet. But trust me, ratchet's graphics are still limited by what the GPU can do. You arent going to get 1000 more NPCs and objects on screen just because the SSD can stream them in and out really fast. The GPU still has to render whats on screen at any given moment, it really doesnt matter if the SSD can load the next 1000 items in a second, it still has to render whats there first.
Glad to see your comment Snake. It's all really been the reality of the situation I've argued. It's really simple if one can understand the graphics pipeline and how it works.
 

Stooky

Member
"it will load more and more polygons into the scene and games will look lots better than any other slower i/o" .....this was pretty much what the promoters of all of this said ..... obviously excluding the 100% most important GPU from the equation. Many have tried to explain to these people how things would have turned out instead ..... and now that we have tangible proofs .... what I hear from these people is ... "maybe optimizing" "then you will see the first party" "it's still too early in the gen to show the true power of streaming more data". Now by the way ... I completely agree that an I / O subsystem that has double the performance than another, if matched by a GPU with double the performance will obviously stream and render more stuff. But this is clearly not the case
you dont have tangible proof. you have a few cross gen titles. You know how this goes, it happens every gen.
 
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Riky

Banned
DF won't want to show any of those differences. They already decided both versions were virtually identical except "denoising" difference. You won't get anything more from them.

By the way the transparency stuff is interesting because an ex PS5 software engineer Matt Hargett specifically talked about that when talking about RDNA2.


There is no difference, I've just posted a screen showing it and I've got more if you want.
 

Sosokrates

Member
DF won't want to show any of those differences. They already decided both versions were virtually identical except "denoising" difference. You won't get anything more from them.

By the way the transparency stuff is interesting because an ex PS5 software engineer Matt Hargett specifically talked about that when talking about RDNA2.


Cerny confirmed at the road to PS5 that there RT is the same as RDNA2.
 

Clear

Member
The black noise is a bug, confirmed.



The only thing I’ve done here is going back to the main menu and choosing explore city.

That triggers the black noise.

If you go back to the main menu and go through the intro with the shooting it’ll be gone.

I’m guessing it’s that denoiser thing that don’t get set up properly when you choose explore city, a messed up settings file or something.

Edit: Only show how easy it is for misinformation the spread when the consoles are this close, a bug is all it takes for videos and picture comparisons to flood the discussions and give birth to all kinds of tech explanations.
I’ve edited my previous posts. I’ll look into the other differences now. 👍


Yeah its probably nothing more than a range threshold not being correctly reset. Anyone checked for similar effects with the reflection/object culling range changing at the same time this effect appears?

Is it the exact same executable on Series S and X or two different builds? Because if the former is true they might be tweaking settings at run-time, so a bug in that mechanism (or in the engine even) could explain it.
 

Darsxx82

Member
The black noise is a bug, confirmed.



The only thing I’ve done here is going back to the main menu and choosing explore city.

That triggers the black noise.

If you go back to the main menu and go through the intro with the shooting it’ll be gone.

I’m guessing it’s that denoiser thing that don’t get set up properly when you choose explore city, a messed up settings file or something.

Edit: Only show how easy it is for misinformation the spread when the consoles are this close, a bug is all it takes for videos and picture comparisons to flood the discussions and give birth to all kinds of tech explanations.
I’ve edited my previous posts. I’ll look into the other differences now. 👍


Indeed. It is a 100% bug.

And I have also verified that this bug, in addition to the "black noise objets" indoors, also had effects on reflections from windows and cars, causing "flickers" that are also resolved.

As you say, the controversial video is comparing the XSX version with the active bug and, of course, generating misinformation that I dont Know if was the intention of its author seen its history ...

It would be good if it came to the knowledge of Epic or The Coalition because it is very heavy to have to restart every time you try the demo in XSX to play it without a bug. But being a free technical demo, I doubt they are interested in solving.
 
Indeed. It is a 100% bug.

And I have also verified that this bug, in addition to the "black noise objets" indoors, also had effects on reflections from windows and cars, causing "flickers" that are also resolved.

As you say, the controversial video is comparing the XSX version with the active bug and, of course, generating misinformation that I dont Know if was the intention of its author seen its history ...

It would be good if it came to the knowledge of Epic or The Coalition because it is very heavy to have to restart every time you try the demo in XSX to play it without a bug. But being a free technical demo, I doubt they are interested in solving.
If you go through the intro sequence, do car windows have proper RT reflections or are they still stuck with screen space only?
 

ABnormal

Member
"it will load more and more polygons into the scene and games will look lots better than any other slower i/o" .....this was pretty much what the promoters of all of this said ..... obviously excluding the 100% most important GPU from the equation. Many have tried to explain to these people how things would have turned out instead ..... and now that we have tangible proofs .... what I hear from these people is ... "maybe optimizing" "then you will see the first party" "it's still too early in the gen to show the true power of streaming more data". Now by the way ... I completely agree that an I / O subsystem that has double the performance than another, if matched by a GPU with double the performance will obviously stream and render more stuff. But this is clearly not the case
You are somewhat confused about data management and rendering. The PS5 I/O system doesn't help in any way to improve rendering (which is entirely done by the GPU). What it allows is fast movement of the highest detail assets possible. Look, it's simple to understand: just imagine the best possible graphic quality the PS5 could render, in most detailed, closed space, on rail game possible (so, all the GPU resources used to render the maximum level assets with the most possible quality). Now, in the past generations, the weight of the most detailed assets would be too high to be possibly used in an open world, because they fill RAM with only few detailed assets and the streaming capabilities of the previous generation cannot load those assets quickly enough to move in an open world at a reasonable speed.
In this generation, the I/O didn't simply grow proportionally to GPU power, but ten times more. There is now the possibility to stream the most detailed assets and geometries on the fly (even Z-brush ones, if one wants), allowing to have the maximum graphical quality of closed, on rail games, on open worlds also. That in theory, though, because an antire open world with super detailed assets would have a final dimension weighting on the terabytes, so trade offs will always be necessary. The point is, that data management speed in no more a limiting factor on the level of detail. And that it's only one possibility: you can link seamelessly different kind of gameplays (for example, maximum detailed flught combat, going seamelessly to ground, on feet combat, or looking from above on an entire 3d map like Skyrim one, and diving directly on a spot being able to play from the sky to the ground; or freeing game design from elevators, door bumpings, or other trick necessary to hide the loading of the next area (which also forces gameplay to be limited to the area present in Ram - a thing that made me furious, when I discovered that GOW Ragnarock will come out on ps4 also).
Rendering detail is no more the limit, now (as some wonderful games and the Matrix demo already showed). This gen limit is the mass storage memory. But if the developers want, they can create games with virtually any level of detail. Graphical level can reach nearly photorealism anyway.
 
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