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Dozens of States side with Epic in App Store appeal

cormack12

Gold Member
Source: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...eneral-to-support-its-apple-app-store-appeal/

States are siding with Epic Games as the developer appeals a lower court ruling in its antitrust lawsuit against Apple over app store fees and payment processing.

The attorneys general for 34 states and the District of Columbia have filed an amicus brief on behalf of Epic. Utah led the brief, claiming that “Apple’s conduct has harmed and is harming mobile app developers and millions of citizens.”
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
 

reksveks

Member
34 states
Microsoft unsurprisingly
DOJ chimed in to say the judge used the sherman act incorrectly
EFF

All filed briefs yesterday. I wonder who is coming to come out in support of Apple.
 

Zeroing

Banned
34 states
Microsoft unsurprisingly
DOJ chimed in to say the judge used the sherman act incorrectly
EFF

All filed briefs yesterday. I wonder who is coming to come out in support of Apple.
Nobody will support Apple. The max will be companies being quiet about it and not go into that crusade.

Apple had it coming but I also believe that Epic and MS are in it because they have stuff to win over the opening of the Apple ecosystem
 

Fbh

Gold Member
Even their phones still allow other storefronts. Eg. Steam.

Can you buy iOS games or other iOS content on Steam? Can the Steam App actually install stuff on your iPhone?
That's what people are arguing about. If the answer is no then to Apple, Steam is no different than Amazon, Walmart, Pizza Hut or any other store that sells non iOS content.

Ok so what I don’t get, if you don’t agree with the practices of the company then don’t put your product on there.

Second when they signed the agreement originally why were they ok with it then but not now?

I'd like to have this clarified too.
My only guess that since, as far as I know, iOS represents over 50% of the mobile OS share in the USA they are considered too big to just ignore even if they aren't a monopoly.
 
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drotahorror

Member
Can you buy iOS games or other iOS content on Steam? Can the Steam App actually install stuff on your iPhone?
That's what people are arguing about. If the answer is no then to Apple, Steam is no different than Amazon, Walmart, Pizza Hut or any other store that sells non iOS content.
Have you ever used an android phone? You can’t install steam games on it and you can’t install android games on steam. Maybe with rooting but not out of the box.
 
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Fbh

Gold Member
Have you ever used an android phone? You can’t install steam games on it and you can’t install android games on steam. Maybe with rooting but not out of the box.

That's not my point, though.

My point is that Android allows for other storefronts that sell and install Android content, like the Amazon App Store, or SlideME.
Android also allows anyone to install software directly without the need to go through a store. You can make an App, sell it on your site and people can download it from there (usually in APK format) and install it on their device, no root required.

Apple doesn't care about Steam because, just like on android, you can't use it to buy and install content for your phone.
 

Andodalf

Member
Ok so what I don’t get, if you don’t agree with the practices of the company then don’t put your product on there.

Second when they signed the agreement originally why were they ok with it then but not now?
Lamo. Again, imagine if this was Ms.



“Just don’t do any business on Windows”


Idiotic. What if there’s price fixing on water should you just die to make a point?
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
I also believe that Epic and MS are in it because they have stuff to win over the opening of the Apple ecosystem

Apple blocked Gamepass on iOS because it would compete with Apple Arcade. A streaming Gamepass app is absolutely no different than Netlflix (which now offers games on iOS), Amazon Prime, Hulu, etc. Yet Apple blocked it because since it's a gaming subscription it will compete with Apple Arcade. Could you imagine the shitstorm if Apple banned Netflix so Apple TV+ wouldn't have that competition?
 

bitbydeath

Member
Can you buy iOS games or other iOS content on Steam? Can the Steam App actually install stuff on your iPhone?
That's what people are arguing about. If the answer is no then to Apple, Steam is no different than Amazon, Walmart, Pizza Hut or any other store that sells non iOS content.
Web only, thought it was both but I was wrong.
 

sainraja

Member
Apple blocked Gamepass on iOS because it would compete with Apple Arcade. A streaming Gamepass app is absolutely no different than Netlflix (which now offers games on iOS), Amazon Prime, Hulu, etc. Yet Apple blocked it because since it's a gaming subscription it will compete with Apple Arcade. Could you imagine the shitstorm if Apple banned Netflix so Apple TV+ wouldn't have that competition?
No, Apple didn't block Gamepass on iOS due to Apple Arcade.
 
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sainraja

Member
Not yet. I imagine that's their end goal with sharing the same silicon.
On the M1 Macs you can still install your own stuff. You don't have to go through the App store.
The experience Apple offers on iOS is a controlled experience and so far they've proven that it is the better experience (IMO). I tried switching to Android and regretted it.

Meanwhile MS is trying to get it so you don't even own your own hardware.

Scary future.
That might be the future they want but there are certain things they can do to get there faster which I haven't seen them do (yet). It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
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sainraja

Member
Web only, thought it was both but I was wrong.
I think having one central area on iOS is overall the better experience. All your purchases are available from one single place — that is the experience Apple wants to offer.
So having different storefronts wouldn't work on iOS, this being the reason I think, Apple pushes back on it.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
I think having one central area on iOS is overall the better experience. All your purchases are available from one single place — that is the experience Apple wants to offer.
So having different storefronts wouldn't work on iOS, this being the reason I think, Apple pushes back on it.
One could still just download apps from the apple store if they choose to stick to the curated products. Having the choice for alternatives would not alter the experience for the user that doesn't want them.

They pushed back because they want ALL of the monies.
 

Fare thee well

Neophyte
I'm no Epic fan, but this is why I never buy Apple products. They want to lock you into their overpriced 'brand,' without any wiggle room. Seriously, it's always some bs. Before it was hipsters w/ Macs having 'no viruses,' and now it's crypto-bros and NFTs.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
I'm no Epic fan, but this is why I never buy Apple products. They want to lock you into their overpriced 'brand,' without any wiggle room. Seriously, it's always some bs. Before it was hipsters w/ Macs having 'no viruses,' and now it's crypto-bros and NFTs.
The whole time gaslighting you that they do it for your own good to save you from the bad guys.
 
I'm no Epic fan, but this is why I never buy Apple products. They want to lock you into their overpriced 'brand,' without any wiggle room. Seriously, it's always some bs. Before it was hipsters w/ Macs having 'no viruses,' and now it's crypto-bros and NFTs.
Umm, but when you decided to buy an apple product you aren’t held at gunpoint so if you don’t like it the way it is just buy the product offered by the competitor.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
I feel like this is some mounting evidences that Apple is right here
 

reksveks

Member
People whom are saying buy Android, do release that Google is getting sued as well for similar practices, right?
 
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phil_t98

Gold Member
Lamo. Again, imagine if this was Ms.



“Just don’t do any business on Windows”


Idiotic. What if there’s price fixing on water should you just die to make a point?

Idiotic? Well wasn’t Epic idiotic putting their game on IOS and agreeing to the terms?

also the point is apple charging the same fee that Sony and Microsoft do on putting games on PlayStation and Xbox.

if a company decides how they want their business to operate why should somebody who wants to use there store dictate how the company should run their store.

the problem you got here is Epic signed the agreement and were happy to have Fortnite on there, if epic end up winning in the long run this will effect consoles because effectively they are also closed store fronts.

befor you know it you credit card details will be stored across multiple store fronts and possibly more vulnerable to fraud
 

reksveks

Member
epic end up winning in the long run this will effect consoles because effectively they are also closed store fronts.
At least one of the bills in the Congress does it by the MAU users within the US so it currently doesn't seem to effect the console manufacturers but Apple And Google. Its not like it has to be a binary switch.
 

Nezzeroth

Member
If Apple is allowed to only let you install apps through their store, then every OS should be allowed to do the same, including Windows. But we all know that will never happen.
 

The_Mike

Gold Member
Its interesting to see how everyone likes this move, but think about what will happen to switch, xbox and PlayStation. They are literally doing the same thing as apple is doing.

I wonder when they get into the same situation.
 

reksveks

Member
Its interesting to see how everyone likes this move, but think about what will happen to switch, xbox and PlayStation. They are literally doing the same thing as apple is doing.

I wonder when they get into the same situation.
At least one of the bills in the Congress does it by the MAU users within the US so it currently doesn't seem to effect the console manufacturers but Apple And Google. Its not like it has to be a binary switch.

COVERED COMPANY.—The term ‘‘Covered Company’’ means any person that owns or controls an App Store for which users in the United States exceed 50,000,000


Shit would get funny if MS gets caught cause they are stronger in the US but not Sony. Personally as a consumer, idgaf if I have the option to buy games on my xbox via MS or maybe in the future Valve. I am going to choose the storefront with the better deal/value.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Lamo. Again, imagine if this was Ms.



“Just don’t do any business on Windows”


Idiotic. What if there’s price fixing on water should you just die to make a point?

Windows is the overwhelmingly dominant operating system in the US and the world. The same is not true for iPhone. Windows has always been open platform. iPhone never has been. So yeah, for Microsoft to suddenly close off Windows to competitors would rightfully draw regulatory attention. But comparing this scenario to what is going on with iPhone doesn't make any sense.
 
If Apple is allowed to only let you install apps through their store, then every OS should be allowed to do the same, including Windows. But we all know that will never happen.
Apple doesn't just make the OS. Apple makes a single, integrated device called the iPhone. You can't use any other OS on the iPhone, and you can't use iOS on anything but an iPhone (or something emulating its hardware). The phone, its OS, and the apps for it, are all part of that single integrated device. Just because it's a phone, and therefore ubiquitous and widespread, doesn't mean Apple has to support, or allow, anything but their own software on the device. If you reflash the chipset of your microwave to play Doom on the display, the microwave maker, who made the microwave and the software to go with it, has no obligation to support you in your endeavor, and should not be required to make their microwaves Doom-compatible if you find that you run into difficulties and decide to sue them.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Apple doesn't just make the OS. Apple makes a single, integrated device called the iPhone. You can't use any other OS on the iPhone, and you can't use iOS on anything but an iPhone (or something emulating its hardware). The phone, its OS, and the apps for it, are all part of that single integrated device. Just because it's a phone, and therefore ubiquitous and widespread, doesn't mean Apple has to support, or allow, anything but their own software on the device. If you reflash the chipset of your microwave to play Doom on the display, the microwave maker, who made the microwave and the software to go with it, has no obligation to support you in your endeavor, and should not be required to make their microwaves Doom-compatible if you find that you run into difficulties and decide to sue them.

You have seen Apple becoming more and more restrictive about what apps can offer and how they are allowed to look like as they started to make more and more money on services. Purely coincidental…

Creating the rules, breaking them for their own apps (and some big apps) all the time (hello Xcode on the sandboxed Mac App Store), and launching apps that compete with the other ones they are regulating… no conflict of interests there because… reasons 😂.

It shows how begrudgingly they follow laws sometimes, you can read it when they remind people they “do respect the local laws and regulations”… as if it were optional 😂 and when they comply they make mockery of the intent of the law (see exception in the Netherlands for dating apps and pretending to get a cut of those payments they do NOTHING for).
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Its interesting to see how everyone likes this move, but think about what will happen to switch, xbox and PlayStation. They are literally doing the same thing as apple is doing.

I wonder when they get into the same situation.
Apple is far far far far more controlling than MS, Sony, or Nintendo are. We are literally talking about how your app UI and UX flows can or cannot look like. It is a much bigger thing than IAP.
 

reksveks

Member
:LOL: sure sure…
He was kinda right imo, but they blocked it cause they don't want anything to reduce gaming iap purchases. Good profits there.

I am praying one of the congressional bills goes through and the following court case gets ruled in favour of the government
 

Nezzeroth

Member
Apple doesn't just make the OS. Apple makes a single, integrated device called the iPhone. You can't use any other OS on the iPhone, and you can't use iOS on anything but an iPhone (or something emulating its hardware). The phone, its OS, and the apps for it, are all part of that single integrated device. Just because it's a phone, and therefore ubiquitous and widespread, doesn't mean Apple has to support, or allow, anything but their own software on the device. If you reflash the chipset of your microwave to play Doom on the display, the microwave maker, who made the microwave and the software to go with it, has no obligation to support you in your endeavor, and should not be required to make their microwaves Doom-compatible if you find that you run into difficulties and decide to sue them.
Apple forcing you to use their software only through their own hardware doesn’t make the situation any better, it’s worse if anything.

Microsoft has been sued multiple times for monopoly concerns for shit much smaller than this like Internet Explorer, when you were always free to use something else. Meanwhile Apple can forbid you to use any app they want and that’s fine.

If people were so bothered about Microsoft practices with Windows, they could always install Linux on their hardware and use that instead. You can’t do that on an Apple device. That makes the situation worse, not better.
 
Apple forcing you to use their software only through their own hardware doesn’t make the situation any better, it’s worse if anything.

Microsoft has been sued multiple times for monopoly concerns for shit much smaller than this like Internet Explorer, when you were always free to use something else. Meanwhile Apple can forbid you to use any app they want and that’s fine.

If people were so bothered about Microsoft practices with Windows, they could always install Linux on their hardware and use that instead. You can’t do that on an Apple device. That makes the situation worse, not better.
Apple does not make the only smartphone. Microsoft makes the only PC OS in widespread consumer use. If you get tired of Apple, you can easily move to Android next time you upgrade, and retain all of the basic necessities and functions. If you get tired of Windows, you don't really have anywhere to go for anything approaching the same level of usability - even if Linux made great strides in recent years, it still has a long way to go.

You can't tell a company that they must give up control over their product. Apple makes the iPhone, it distributes it, supports it, everything in the iPhone is Apple, top to bottom. You can't say that about just any PC. Microsoft makes and distributes Surfaces, and they definitely have the final say of what is included in the package there. You can tell Microsoft what the generally available builds of Windows must be like, to conform to competitive law and fairness and whatnot. But you can't tell them what build to install on the PCs they make and distribute themselves. They could make a completely locked-down build of Windows for their Surface devices, and they'd suffer no repercussions. I don't see why Apple is different. On an individual-to-individual level, nothing prevents an iPhone user from giving up their iPhone in favor of an Android.

Now, if there is something that prevents an iOS user from easily migrating to Android, that's a different story. You should be able to transfer your contacts, messages, files, etc, easily, with no obstacles. I'm all for interoperability of platforms, as that empowers users to choose more freely. You can force Apple to support that, and you'll get no complaints from me. But even if Apple is the evil megacorp people like to paint it as, I don't want there to be precedent where the creator of a product can be forced to give up control over it.
 

Zeroing

Banned
Apple blocked Gamepass on iOS because it would compete with Apple Arcade. A streaming Gamepass app is absolutely no different than Netlflix (which now offers games on iOS), Amazon Prime, Hulu, etc. Yet Apple blocked it because since it's a gaming subscription it will compete with Apple Arcade. Could you imagine the shitstorm if Apple banned Netflix so Apple TV+ wouldn't have that competition?
Like I said, Apple had it coming and only now Epic and MS done a lawsuit because they have something to win. Before that, developers complained about Apple closed ecosystem but nothing was done.
 

Andodalf

Member
Idiotic? Well wasn’t Epic idiotic putting their game on IOS and agreeing to the terms?

also the point is apple charging the same fee that Sony and Microsoft do on putting games on PlayStation and Xbox.

if a company decides how they want their business to operate why should somebody who wants to use there store dictate how the company should run their store.

the problem you got here is Epic signed the agreement and were happy to have Fortnite on there, if epic end up winning in the long run this will effect consoles because effectively they are also closed store fronts.

befor you know it you credit card details will be stored across multiple store fronts and possibly more vulnerable to fraud



 

sainraja

Member
One could still just download apps from the apple store if they choose to stick to the curated products. Having the choice for alternatives would not alter the experience for the user that doesn't want them.

They pushed back because they want ALL of the monies.
If everyone didn't have to go through the same door, the apps would be available via other methods or through other stores — no guarantee that they will be made available via the App store.
 
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