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Early this gen we got a game on console with RTGI. Will it be the one and only?

nashman

Member
Are we doomed to future of "pretty" UE5 games at 1440/30 with abit of RT shadows and maybe RT reflections on console? DF saying only reason we got a 60+ mode on GoW is because its cross gen. DF saying console headed to 30 fps is inevitable.


Props to 4A games for RTGI on console and Props to any dev that has or will release a 120 fps game this gen on console!
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Oh No Reaction GIF by BrownSugarApp


Please...no more 30fps....dont remind me the horror.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
Silent Hill Remake 2 running on UE5 is already confirmed to be using Lumen. UE5's built in raytraced lighting system. Respawn has already confirmed they will be using raytraced lighting for Jedi Survivor. They might be using Lumen as well since that game is also UE. You can count on all the other UE5 games like Avowed and Hellblade 2 to also use Lumen.
 

Crayon

Member
The consoles can barely do ray tracing. Look at how hard cyberpunk rt hits a 3060 for frames. Then look at the 6700 gets decimated in comparison.

It's not a problem. Rt is not going to come into it's own until the consoles can do it very well. (Minimal performance hit) Then devs can set up their lighting/shadow with less work and precious time. Bonus: it'll be a *little* better looking than today's masterfully crafted fake n' bake methods.

If I'm wrong, MANY pc games will have rt options that can push a 4080 and eventually a 5070. That would be awesome so I hope I'm wrong about the super slow uptake.
 

Fahdis

Member
The only game that looks moderately next gen this gen is Horizon with how dynamic and real it looks. Even then it has alright physics and animation. Until physics are also compensated for with high framerates, static worlds will always remain trash.
 

rofif

Banned
I am starting to bail out of rt boat. I know it’s future but… it barely does anything in most games. The standard raster techniques catched up.

And in more static games like tlou2 or uc4. Everything is baked. There is no need for rt and it would be difficult to get this level of RTGI looking as good as baked.

In most rt games you enable it and look for a change. It’s never apparent.
Reflections are visible but still barely worth it
 

MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
In most rt games you enable it and look for a change. It’s never apparent.
Reflections are visible but still barely worth it

I recommend to revisit games with RTGI like Cyberpunk 2077 or Dying Light 2.

And in more static games like tlou2 or uc4. Everything is baked. There is no need for rt and it would be difficult to get this level of RTGI looking as good as baked.

Static games is probably the best way to describe titles like The Last of Us Part II or Uncharted 4. I'm definitely stealing this one!
 

rofif

Banned
I recommend to revisit games with RTGI like Cyberpunk 2077 or Dying Light 2.



Static games is probably the best way to describe titles like The Last of Us Part II or Uncharted 4. I'm definitely stealing this one!
There is non rt solution for static games too. Like horizon does. It has few baked time off day presets and that’s it.
and look at uc4 flashlight levels. They look perfect. The light is bouncing similar to rt. neat effects.

I replayed metro rtx edition this year on my pc and it looked great. But I wouldn’t say better. It just looked a tiny bit different
 

TrebleShot

Member
At this point it feels like RT was developed to sell high end graphics cards more than any practical use.

They launch the 3090 and it barely hits 60fps without DLSS RT wow big.

They launch the 4090 and along with it OH LOOK YOULL NEED IT TO RUN CP2077 new shiny RT mode.

The honest truth is the hardware isn’t there yet and most baked in solutions still look incredible and sometimes better than RT solutions such as TLOUp1 and I expect this will get better and better.

Not to mention RT hardly makes that much of a difference RTGI in Dying Light does look bette Ethan non RT but I’m sorry it’s not THAT much better or noticeable
 

01011001

Banned
30FPS makes games more cinematic.

Ray Tracing is barely noticeable and is a waste of resources.

I am starting to bail out of rt boat. I know it’s future but… it barely does anything in most games. The standard raster techniques catched up.

And in more static games like tlou2 or uc4. Everything is baked. There is no need for rt and it would be difficult to get this level of RTGI looking as good as baked.

In most rt games you enable it and look for a change. It’s never apparent.
Reflections are visible but still barely worth it

I recommend to revisit games with RTGI like Cyberpunk 2077 or Dying Light 2.

Static games is probably the best way to describe titles like The Last of Us Part II or Uncharted 4. I'm definitely stealing this one!

MidGenRefresh MidGenRefresh do you have multiple personality disorder or what's going on here?
 

MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
There is non rt solution for static games too. Like horizon does. It has few baked time off day presets and that’s it.
and look at uc4 flashlight levels. They look perfect. The light is bouncing similar to rt. neat effects.

I replayed metro rtx edition this year on my pc and it looked great. But I wouldn’t say better. It just looked a tiny bit different

You can only fake and bake so much.

Vz2UH1W.jpeg


and look at uc4 flashlight levels. They look perfect. The light is bouncing similar to rt. neat effects.

It does look good! Not without limitations but good.

I replayed metro rtx edition this year on my pc and it looked great. But I wouldn’t say better. It just looked a tiny bit different
 
I am starting to bail out of rt boat. I know it’s future but… it barely does anything in most games. The standard raster techniques catched up.

And in more static games like tlou2 or uc4. Everything is baked. There is no need for rt and it would be difficult to get this level of RTGI looking as good as baked.

In most rt games you enable it and look for a change. It’s never apparent.
Reflections are visible but still barely worth it
No, static objects are fine everything else including the characters are lit completely wrong. Baked is old tech and needs to be put to bed, it also takes much longer for developers to create games this way. Try to read up a little before posting, DF video on RTGI will enlighten you.
 

Filben

Member
I recommend to revisit games with RTGI like Cyberpunk 2077 or Dying Light 2.
I second this.

If people tried out RT on consoles or in like two games on PC and wouldn't be positive about it, I wouldn't blame them. However, it's not the full picture.

Especially Dying Light 2 with lots of global illumination because it's outside, with many small and one huge light sources and lots of shadows, is really transformative with RT.

Cyberpunk on console? Don't even bother because you only get RT local shadows that are highly speficic and only very specific scenarios and locations benefit from that opposed to tradional shadow maps. But you'll loose 50% performance all the time.

Even in Control, a rather good example, the best effects are the reflections and transparent reflections. It looks great in those cases but there's still many scenarios where you have little to no reflections and you still loose lots of performance. The RT lighting is also very specific and more often changes so little you wouldn't notice.

In Chernobylite you'd better off with RT off on consoles, too. Just look at the examples on DF. When you have to look at the glass cover of a lamp to spot the difference, it's nit something I'd sacrifice performance for. On PC, with outdoor lighting at daytime, however, it's a vastly different picture. It's still a heavy performance hit you'd have to consider. On console though, it's practically a no-brainer what setting to use.

No wonder why people, especially console folks, are sceptical.
 
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rofif

Banned
No, static objects are fine everything else including the characters are lit completely wrong. Baked is old tech and needs to be put to bed, it also takes much longer for developers to create games this way. Try to read up a little before posting, DF video on RTGI will enlighten you.
Dude I know everything about it. I am early adopter who got 2070 on release.
I know it’s the future Asus what it does.
But you cannot discredit raster tech. It really catched up.

And rt will only speed up dev tiny bit. And only if it’s the only version of a game built from ground up. Otherwise you still have to put in lights, cube maps and a ton of stuff if you have lower settings without rt. pointless.

And rt is not fully automatic. It helps to light up the scene but it also changes the scene. You might not want a light from a natural source. This is why hero lighting exists. This is why you don’t shoot movies just as is. Because it’s boring looking.
 
Dude I know everything about it. I am early adopter who got 2070 on release.
I know it’s the future Asus what it does.
But you cannot discredit raster tech. It really catched up.

And rt will only speed up dev tiny bit. And only if it’s the only version of a game built from ground up. Otherwise you still have to put in lights, cube maps and a ton of stuff if you have lower settings without rt. pointless.

And rt is not fully automatic. It helps to light up the scene but it also changes the scene. You might not want a light from a natural source. This is why hero lighting exists. This is why you don’t shoot movies just as is. Because it’s boring looking.
Now you're comparing movies to games? Lighting in games has been completely wrong because of limited technology. RTGI Lighting etc decreases development time significantly, some small problems have to be fixed but it pales in comparison to a baked Lighting solution. Seriously are you talking about this after all the information regarding "Lumen" is out there?
 
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rofif

Banned
Now you're comparing movies to games? Lighting in games has been completely wrong because of limited technology. RTGI Lighting etc increases development time significantly, some small problems have to be fixed but it pales in comparison to a baked Lighting solution. Seriously are you talking about this after all the information regarding "Lumen" is out there?
Of course it compares. Look at any behind the scenes of movies and games. It's identical.
Lights are placed behind characters to create good effect, rooms are lighted artificially. You need that at least in cutscenes or fixed angles!

Until you have fully simulated world in a game, it is not possible to purely rely on sky lighting/sun.
You still author pbr texture properties, reflectivity and so on.
We do not have infinite bounces so yet. You still need to take everything into an account.
Lights still need to be placed and given properties. If You want to rely only on RT, you better have everything rendered all around even behind the player. Otherwise how could light interact properly?

Why do you think people wanted hero lighting on Aloy in forbidden west?! Because it looks better. of course it's not realistic.
I am all for RT but it's use till gotta be smart and authored. It is great for reflections and ambient occlusion, shadows and so on as you don't have to line up cube maps and crap.
Maybe some devs should shed some light to us. Which is faster to get "DESIRED" result of a scene. Not which is more realistic. I don't care how realistic it is if I switch between the two modes and it;s 99% the same
 
After we all know that Moore law is dead people still think that "advances in technology" will bring us closer somehow, when a highly non-linear algorithm with a totally random data locality is used.
Eh...😮‍💨
 

MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
I feel like Dying light 2 is a pretty bad example. It's not that the RT is so good, it's that their lighting with no RT is mediocre and leaves a lot to be desired.

We can use Cyberpunk 2077 if you're so sophisticated. Dying Light features dynamic day and night cycle. You can't compare it to a game with baked lighting and say that Dying Light's lighting with no Ray Tracing is mediocre.
 

Skifi28

Member
We can use Cyberpunk 2077 if you're so sophisticated. Dying Light features dynamic day and night cycle. You can't compare it to a game with baked lighting and say that Dying Light's lighting with no Ray Tracing is mediocre.
Games with baked lighting these days also do dynamic time of day. I'm not saying there is no difference with RT GI, but it's nowhere near as pronounced in regular outdoor scenes as it is in Dying Light 2. The biggest difference is usually interiors.
 
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bitbydeath

Member
The consoles can barely do ray tracing. Look at how hard cyberpunk rt hits a 3060 for frames. Then look at the 6700 gets decimated in comparison.

It's not a problem. Rt is not going to come into it's own until the consoles can do it very well. (Minimal performance hit) Then devs can set up their lighting/shadow with less work and precious time. Bonus: it'll be a *little* better looking than today's masterfully crafted fake n' bake methods.

If I'm wrong, MANY pc games will have rt options that can push a 4080 and eventually a 5070. That would be awesome so I hope I'm wrong about the super slow uptake.
PC can barely do Ray-Tracing as well, cause the feature is simply forgettable at the best of times.
 

MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
Games with baked lighting these days also do dynamic time of day. I'm not saying there is no difference with RT GI, but it's nowhere near as pronounced in regular outdoor scenes as it is in Dying Light 2. The biggest difference is usually interiors.

How do you know? How much better Horizon Forbidden West would look with RTGI? Or Red Dead Redemption 2? It's not something you can just claim to know. Dying Light 2 and Cyberpunk 2077 are shining examples that RTGI is the unicorn in the world of graphics.
 

Skifi28

Member
How do you know? How much better Horizon Forbidden West would look with RTGI? Or Red Dead Redemption 2? It's not something you can just claim to know. Dying Light 2 and Cyberpunk 2077 are shining examples that RTGI is the unicorn in the world of graphics.
They are already using RTGI, just pre-calculated. If we want to talk accuracy then yes, real time RTGI is far more accurate. If we want to talk visuals though, the difference is far smaller unless you compare them side by side or take the time to sit and try to calculate how a scene should be lighted based on the position of the sun etc. Video game developers have become experts at "faking" lighting to the point it's both computationally cheap and quite accurate unless you scrutinize it.
 
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MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
Video game developers have become experts at "faking" lighting to the point it's both computationally cheap and quite accurate unless you scrutinize it.

Expertly faked:

Vz2UH1W.jpeg


If we want to talk visuals though, the difference is far smaller unless you compare them side by side

Every scene in games like Dying Light 2 or Cyberpunk 2077 will look better with RT. Some will look slightly better, most will look much, much better. Same graphical preset, RT on Vs. RT off.

w7a1OYt.jpg


bQGAnHj.jpg
 

Skifi28

Member
Expertly faked:

Vz2UH1W.jpeg

You totally didn't find the worst picture possible where there's many things wrong on top of lighting. I don't see much reason to argue if you're just posting in bad faith. Still, like I said, indoor scenes will usually show the biggest difference.

Every scene in games like Dying Light 2 or Cyberpunk 2077 will look better with RT. Some will look slightly better, most will look much, much better. Same graphical preset, RT on Vs. RT off.

w7a1OYt.jpg


bQGAnHj.jpg
You're proving my point, this is exactly what I've been saying. They look different, but it's hard to even tell which version has the RT unless you look at the label or stare at the screen for a few seconds to see which is more accurate. Unlike Dying Light 2 where RT off/on looks immediately a generation apart in almost every scene because the game's GI is so bad without RT.
 

MidGenRefresh

*Refreshes biennially
You totally didn't find the worst picture possible where there's many things wrong on top of lighting. I don't see much reason to argue if you're just posting in bad faith. Still, like I said, indoor scenes will usually show the biggest difference.

Game is full of places like this. You know what would fix it? RTGI.

You're proving my point, this is exactly what I've been saying. They look different, but it's hard to even tell which version has the RT unless you look at the label or stare at the screen for a few seconds to see which is more accurate. Unlike Dying Light 2 where RT off/on looks immediately a generation apart in almost every scene because the game's GI is so bad without RT.

Hehe, we're just wasting time here. I'd bet that if you had an option to play with RT ON Vs. OFF (at good framerates) you would pick ON every god damn time. Because it looks so, so, so much better all the time. You don't need to "stop and look". Your brain just knows it feels right.
 

Neo_game

Member
I hope more games have it but they will probably have to do 1080P or use 30fps if they want higher resolution, there should be option for both. Many devs are good to fake it. I think realistic looking games should go for it. Let us see how RDNA3 handles it. This will be a good indication for Pro consoles as well.
 
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Skifi28

Member
Which game had RTGI? OP doesn’t say. What’s the difference between RTGI and other types of ray tracing?
Dying light 2, Metro Exodus (the new gen console and PC enhanced version), Cyberpunk and that Quake 2 remaster/mod from the top of my head. There could be a couple more. It's the most expensive type of ray tracing as it calculates light bouncing multiple types in order to correctly light a scene.
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
PC can barely do Ray-Tracing as well, cause the feature is simply forgettable at the best of times.
The 3000 series of Nvidia gpu's were probably the last generation where you could believably say "pc can barely do ray-tracing". And the feature being forgettable "at best of times" can't be taken seriously. You either misused that sentiment or never have seen ray-tracing at its best.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
You can only fake and bake so much.

Vz2UH1W.jpeg




It does look good! Not without limitations but good.
tbf, thats an engine issue, decima engine lighting does not looks really good internally.
Devs will improve that im sure.
 
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winjer

Gold Member
RT can improve some scenes, but it's not worth it when you lose more than half performance. Unless you have a 4090.
 
Of course it compares. Look at any behind the scenes of movies and games. It's identical.
Lights are placed behind characters to create good effect, rooms are lighted artificially. You need that at least in cutscenes or fixed angles!

Until you have fully simulated world in a game, it is not possible to purely rely on sky lighting/sun.
You still author pbr texture properties, reflectivity and so on.
We do not have infinite bounces so yet. You still need to take everything into an account.
Lights still need to be placed and given properties. If You want to rely only on RT, you better have everything rendered all around even behind the player. Otherwise how could light interact properly?

Why do you think people wanted hero lighting on Aloy in forbidden west?! Because it looks better. of course it's not realistic.
I am all for RT but it's use till gotta be smart and authored. It is great for reflections and ambient occlusion, shadows and so on as you don't have to line up cube maps and crap.
Maybe some devs should shed some light to us. Which is faster to get "DESIRED" result of a scene. Not which is more realistic. I don't care how realistic it is if I switch between the two modes and it;s 99% the same
It's faster than a baked Lighting solution, common sense tells us that, but even if yours doesn't Epic games will tell you. Hero lighting is another rubbish effect that makes everything look wrong and inaccurate. Trust me any game using RTGI is not doing Hero lighting.

A movie is shot to make everything look as good as possible and is comparable to a cutscene in a game, but not gameplay. There is no comparison to be made here as we are talking about in game RTGI in comparison to baked Lighting in game. One is by any yardstick better and faster to implement, unfortunately the better one is also far more computationally expensive.
 

rofif

Banned
It's faster than a baked Lighting solution, common sense tells us that, but even if yours doesn't Epic games will tell you. Hero lighting is another rubbish effect that makes everything look wrong and inaccurate. Trust me any game using RTGI is not doing Hero lighting.

A movie is shot to make everything look as good as possible and is comparable to a cutscene in a game, but not gameplay. There is no comparison to be made here as we are talking about in game RTGI in comparison to baked Lighting in game. One is by any yardstick better and faster to implement, unfortunately the better one is also far more computationally expensive.
You don't get this with just rtgi. You need special lighting setup.
And hero lighting is awesome. I don't want realistic graphics. I want good graphics!
Even if implementing RTGI is faster (of course epic would say that, they sell it), then it does not change the fact you have to setup special lighting rigs.
Even so IN GAMEPLAY since you want scenes and rooms lit in certain ways... maybe not according to sun or lights position. example of two gameplay screenshots with purposeful lighting :
wsR3np5.jpg

Q79Cobw.jpg



some my older screenshots to show what I mean. This is not natural light but it's fantastic light.
yzOdlbJ.jpg

eevm7tZ.jpg


I am not saying this is not possible with RTGI. It absolutely is. maybe even easier. but you would need to change artificial rtgi light sources around.
 

kyliethicc

Member
Are we doomed to future of "pretty" UE5 games at 1440/30 with abit of RT shadows and maybe RT reflections on console? DF saying only reason we got a 60+ mode on GoW is because its cross gen. DF saying console headed to 30 fps is inevitable.


Props to 4A games for RTGI on console and Props to any dev that has or will release a 120 fps game this gen on console!
lumen is RTGI
 
You don't get this with just rtgi. You need special lighting setup.
And hero lighting is awesome. I don't want realistic graphics. I want good graphics!
Even if implementing RTGI is faster (of course epic would say that, they sell it), then it does not change the fact you have to setup special lighting rigs.
Even so IN GAMEPLAY since you want scenes and rooms lit in certain ways... maybe not according to sun or lights position. example of two gameplay screenshots with purposeful lighting :
wsR3np5.jpg

Q79Cobw.jpg



some my older screenshots to show what I mean. This is not natural light but it's fantastic light.
yzOdlbJ.jpg

eevm7tZ.jpg


I am not saying this is not possible with RTGI. It absolutely is. maybe even easier. but you would need to change artificial rtgi light sources around.
I absolutely agree it looks fantastic 👌 but surely we must embrace the newer tech as these new machines get more powerful? I think it was Alex DF who showed how inaccurate and limited the lighting is in TLOU2, still an amazing looking game. However I respect your opinion on this and currently the consoles seem underpowered to deliver on RTGI in most games.
 

bitbydeath

Member
The 3000 series of Nvidia gpu's were probably the last generation where you could believably say "pc can barely do ray-tracing". And the feature being forgettable "at best of times" can't be taken seriously. You either misused that sentiment or never have seen ray-tracing at its best.
It’s NEVER worth the performance loss.
 

rofif

Banned
I absolutely agree it looks fantastic 👌 but surely we must embrace the newer tech as these new machines get more powerful? I think it was Alex DF who showed how inaccurate and limited the lighting is in TLOU2, still an amazing looking game. However I respect your opinion on this and currently the consoles seem underpowered to deliver on RTGI in most games.
thanks. Yeah, for sure next gen.
Until then Devs will have to make 2 versions. raster/hybrid for consoles and rt for ultra pc. So more work in transition years.
 

Grildon Tundy

Gold Member
At this point it feels like RT was developed to sell high end graphics cards more than any practical use.

They launch the 3090 and it barely hits 60fps without DLSS RT wow big.

They launch the 4090 and along with it OH LOOK YOULL NEED IT TO RUN CP2077 new shiny RT mode.

The honest truth is the hardware isn’t there yet and most baked in solutions still look incredible and sometimes better than RT solutions such as TLOUp1 and I expect this will get better and better.

Not to mention RT hardly makes that much of a difference RTGI in Dying Light does look bette Ethan non RT but I’m sorry it’s not THAT much better or noticeable
I don't want to agree with you, but I think you're right
 
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