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European GSD H1 2024: PS5 is -16%, Switch -32% and Xbox Series S/X -37%

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
In Europe PS5 is still ridiculously expensive. This thing costs twice the price of a Switch. Their result by revenue is surely reaching records even accounting for inflation. I think they are going too far there with their pricing strategy. At some point most people will be pushed to PC gaming and they won't go back to consoles. Thankefully for Sony owning a powerful PC is still even more expensive.

I think you inherently don't understand why things are more expensive in Europe and why that ALSO extends to the PC market. The Switch is actually sold at a profit, the PS5 is sold at a loss. As such, Sony has far less flexibility with PS5 pricing in Europe than Nintendo does with the Switch.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism

Page 9

FY2024 Forecast (year-on-year)
Operating Income
Decrease in hardware losses due to lower unit sales
Are we talking about total hardware sales or just the PS5 sales (I assumed it's the latter, considering the topic of the thread).

Hardware here most likely means Portal (which is confirmed not to make a profit) and PS VR 2 (which likely isn't profit-making either). But there has been official confirmation regarding PS5 being profitable, even before the PS5 price increase, so there's no doubt about that.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Are we talking about total hardware sales or just the PS5 sales (I assumed it's the latter, considering the topic of the thread).

Hardware here most likely means Portal (which is confirmed not to make a profit) and PS VR 2 (which likely isn't profit-making either). But there has been official confirmation regarding PS5 being profitable, even before the PS5 price increase, so there's no doubt about that.

There is no way that sony sells enough Portals or PSVR2s to make Sony take a loss on hardware if PS5 was profitable.

Sony has consistently reported hardware sales losses before the PSVR2 launched and before the Portal launched. You're flat out wrong. It's in EVERY financial report.

Edit: Also don't know where you got the idea that the Portal is sold at a loss. There is no way Sony would sell this product at a loss when it doesn't push software sales further. It's hundred percent sold at a profit. Even looking at the components anyone could tell that it is sold for profit.

Imagine being so wrong, that you walk yourself in a circle to try to sound right...
 
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BigLee74

Member
Take a guess BigBrainLee:


And don't take it personally. If somebody told you that Series S wasn't a great idea and they predicted 10:1 sales in favour of PS5 you would have called them concern trolls back then.
Well obviously, duh! Mine was was more a statement about the sadness of trawling through said threads.

I’m honoured you selected one of my posts from the many!

In retrospect though, I don’t think I said anything too outlandish. The strategy was sound, but in practise, nothing quite fell MSs way to allow them to claw back some of those lost users…

- Halo being canned as a release title
- XSX not outperforming the PS5 as raw numbers may suggest
- XSS not quite hitting ‘same but less res’ as initially stated (too many 30 v 60 fps games).
- Generally a very barren first few years

Probably the biggest factor though was losing the Xbox One v PS4 era. This is where most people built up their digital library, and nobody wants to lose that. People are stubborn.
 
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Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Probably the biggest factor though was losing the Xbox One v PS4 era. This is where most people built up their digital library, and nobody wants to lose that. People are stubborn.

I think this is one of the biggest lies ever told.

Phil Spencer said this once and everyone took him at face value. The reality is people started buying digital games a generation before where they had tremendous success. This is just an excuse that's also extremely vague in ignoring WHY they lost that generation and how nothing has changed since then.

The reality is that they never built up a foundation in Japan. They never built up a brand in Europe. They were close to Sony in North America, but games like Uncharted, Spider-Man, The Last of Us, God of War, Horizon... they built a gap in brand awareness.

Even games that failed for Sony like The Order 1886 or weren't super mega hits like Detroit Become Human were still better efforts than what Microsoft was putting out.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
There is no way that sony sells enough Portals or PSVR2s to make Sony take a loss on hardware if PS5 was profitable.

Sony has consistently reported hardware sales losses before the PSVR2 launched and before the Portal launched. You're flat out wrong. It's in EVERY financial report.

Edit: Also don't know where you got the idea that the Portal is sold at a loss. There is no way Sony would sell this product at a loss when it doesn't push software sales further. It's hundred percent sold at a profit. Even looking at the components anyone could tell that it is sold for profit.

Imagine being so wrong, that you walk yourself in a circle to try to sound right...
lol Sony itself said it.

https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2023/11/15/ps5-playstation-portal-not-designed-for-profit/

You're ignoring multiple official statements to believe something that you want to believe.

I've now surfaced 2 official statements that prove both of your assumptions wrong.
 
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BigLee74

Member
I think this is one of the biggest lies ever told.

Phil Spencer said this once and everyone took him at face value. The reality is people started buying digital games a generation before where they had tremendous success. This is just an excuse that's also extremely vague in ignoring WHY they lost that generation and how nothing has changed since then.

The reality is that they never built up a foundation in Japan. They never built up a brand in Europe. They were close to Sony in North America, but games like Uncharted, Spider-Man, The Last of Us, God of War, Horizon... they built a gap in brand awareness.

Even games that failed for Sony like The Order 1886 or weren't super mega hits like Detroit Become Human were still better efforts than what Microsoft was putting out.
Disagree.

People may have started their digital library in the 360/ps3 era, but it didn’t really fly until X1/PS4.

XSX and PS5 being backwards compatible day 1 also made it more lucrative to stay (for those that were ever on the fence).

That X1/PS4 gen was critical, and MS blew it there in many many ways.
 
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Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Disagree.

People may have started their digital library in the 360/ps3 era, but it didn’t really fly until X1/PS4.

XSX and PS5 being backwards compatible day 1 also made it more lucrative to stay (for those that were ever on the fence).

That X1/PS4 gen was critical, and MS blew it there in many many ways.

It's making a massive assumption that I don't think is actually backed by fact that people are out here playing their old games from previous generations. I just don't think there is any real evidence that it works like that.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
lol Sony itself said it.

https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2023/11/15/ps5-playstation-portal-not-designed-for-profit/

You're ignoring multiple official statements to believe something that you want to believe.

I've now surfaced 2 official statements that prove both of your assumptions wrong.

No, what you do is take vague comments in articles pulling translations from Japanese that don't even say what you think they say.

What I gave you is actually from financial reports, which YOU'RE actively ignoring.

The statement does not confirm a product is sold at a loss even in the translation. You've got no idea what you're talking about here.

And it's hilarious that you think the PS Portal sold at 200 dollars with the components it has is sold at a loss. It's a Dual Sense with a cheap LCD, 6gb of storage, and minimal processing/memory.
 

KaiserBecks

Member
I just don't understand how the Xbox keeps having the biggest drops, while already being at rock bottom.

ORExGyE.gif
Thank you so much for instantly putting the theme melody in my ear 💀
 

BigLee74

Member
It's making a massive assumption that I don't think is actually backed by fact that people are out here playing their old games from previous generations. I just don't think there is any real evidence that it works like that.
There is no assumption.

The numbers and percentages are there if you want to search for them. A quick chatGPT came back with 47% of people use XSX backwards compatibility to play their old games.

You don’t?

I certainly do.

Even for those that don’t, it’s not so much the playing as the thought of not being able to play the 100s of games they’ve digitally acquired (whilst also not being able to ‘sell on for cash’ to soften any blow) that will likely influence their buying decision. It’s in the head.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
There is no assumption.

The numbers and percentages are there if you want to search for them. A quick chatGPT came back with 47% of people use XSX backwards compatibility to play their old games.

You don’t?

I certainly do.

Even for those that don’t, it’s not so much the playing as the thought of not being able to play the 100s of games they’ve digitally acquired (whilst also not being able to ‘sell on for cash’ to soften any blow) that will likely influence their buying decision. It’s in the head.

Chatgpt? You can't be serious.

I don't think you know how difficult it would be to get accurate market data on this.

It's not just seeing how many people are playing previous generation games, it's when they bought them AND that the existence of said library was a major factor in them keeping within a specific ecosystem.

You'd have to do a massive study to get this and if that were public, we'd know about it.

The Xbox One actually had BC with some 360 games unlike the PS4 that could not play PS3 games. If that were at all true, we would have seen more people stick with the X1 last generation than we did.
 
I think this is one of the biggest lies ever told.

Phil Spencer said this once and everyone took him at face value. The reality is people started buying digital games a generation before where they had tremendous success. This is just an excuse that's also extremely vague in ignoring WHY they lost that generation and how nothing has changed since then.

The reality is that they never built up a foundation in Japan. They never built up a brand in Europe. They were close to Sony in North America, but games like Uncharted, Spider-Man, The Last of Us, God of War, Horizon... they built a gap in brand awareness.

Even games that failed for Sony like The Order 1886 or weren't super mega hits like Detroit Become Human were still better efforts than what Microsoft was putting out.
I remember when Phil said that last year in a podcast and can't believe how many people believe it as gospel. People aren't dropping $500 on a new console to play old games. Maybe a good amount of people on this site, as it's a video game enthusiast board but not practically in the real world.

Even the proof is in the pudding here. Xbox had/has a better BC capabilities compared to PS and Switch, yet they are tracking worse than Xbox1 and 360. How are they losing market share if that's the case? Why are people abandoning their old Xbox libraries? Then we just had a thread showing TLoU2 remake, is a top 2 selling game in the EU. But yea, people REALLY care about BC and their old digital libraries. Its just another Phil lie to try and save face for all of his shortcomings
 

BigLee74

Member
Chatgpt? You can't be serious.

I don't think you know how difficult it would be to get accurate market data on this.

It's not just seeing how many people are playing previous generation games, it's when they bought them AND that the existence of said library was a major factor in them keeping within a specific ecosystem.

You'd have to do a massive study to get this and if that were public, we'd know about it.

The Xbox One actually had BC with some 360 games unlike the PS4 that could not play PS3 games. If that were at all true, we would have seen more people stick with the X1 last generation than we did.

ChatGPT v What You Think On A Forum.

Fact is, people play older games using BC.

Your existing library may influence your next platform.

As to why the X1 didn’t maintain user base if it had BC support for X360 games? Thats because a) it didn’t, BC support came much later, b) people’s digital libraries would still have been smallish for the X360 gen [myself, some arcade live titles and that was it] and c) TV TV TV + drm/always online.
 
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You're still thinking short term though. Sony doesn't need to be competitive with Nintendo in the family market right away. They can wait until 2026 to drop the price of the PS5 digital to 300-350 dollars. Building that family friendly catalog BEFORE then will pay dividends. Especially if you do something and release an Astrobot movie and do transmedia marketing for the game that is already on the market. So you build the library now and sell those games down the line.

PS Portal also an option to push for kids. Metrics probably show that kids mostly play the Switch at home anyways. Once they update it to support cloud gaming, you won't even need to buy a PS5. Just subscribe to PS+ and play via cloud. Nishino did mention that cloud could come to Portal, but I'm confused on what the hold up is.

I did bring up PS Portal as a lower-priced entry point once they do cloud gaming for it. The reason it's probably taking so long is because they'd need to increase the number of deployed servers globally to facilitate demand for Portals accessing via cloud (vs Remote Play) and doing so at PS5 quality settings. SIE's cloud network probably only has enough systems deployed to handle cloud streaming for current PS5 console owners, which would cover current and some future PS+ Premium subscribers for cloud gaming.

PS Portal stock is fine. The demand isn't nearly that high, though as I said cloud might change that. It also gives us an idea of how much a PS Portable might cost. We're looking at probably 450-500 which probably isn't family friendly from day 1.

I think you're underestimating demand for PS Portal because it'd seem in several markets supply wasn't enough when it could've clearly sold more. As for its showing where a PS handheld would fall at pricing-wise, well keep in mind the Portal probably has a higher profit margin on it than a PS handheld would have from Day 1; a PS handheld wouldn't need as high a profit margin because it'd have a larger volume of units to sale to make up that difference.

A PS handheld selling for $449 or $499, IMHO that'd basically have to be something capable of natively playing base PS5 games on the go, at base PS5 settings or slightly scaled down using AI-based tech like PSSR. Or something that can play PS6 games at lowered settings through same use of technologies, where developers don't have to do much of the work themselves if any.

A handheld coming out 2026 or later that can only play PS4 games natively isn't going to cut the mustard at a $449 or $499 price point.


Page 9

FY2024 Forecast (year-on-year)
Operating Income
Decrease in hardware losses due to lower unit sales

That doesn't necessarily mean they're losing money on PS5s, though. It just means they're making less money per PS5 than they were making at some point earlier, due to changes like component pricing increases.

Also I don't know how else to interpret decreases in losses due to lower unit sales other than that meaning less losses due to manufacturing less units. Which is something they have said was going to be the case anyhow.

Otherwise if they made the same number of units this FY as last FY but sold less than last FY, assuming component pricing and inflation don't massively subside, that'd increase their losses substantially.

Given they (SIE) just went through phasing out older PS5s for the new revision (with the detachable disc drive) late last year, which was done to help save costs, they are very likely profitable selling PS5s thanks to the streamlining of their production pipeline alone. They don't need to make two distinct PS5 models anymore; just one and then for the Disc SKU, throw the disc drive in there pre-installed. Simple.

However I'm certainly willing to believe that due to market conditions and whatnot, absolute profit margins for PS5s may not be as high as they were in back half of FY '22 or first half of FY '23.
 
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laynelane

Member
I think this is one of the biggest lies ever told.

Phil Spencer said this once and everyone took him at face value. The reality is people started buying digital games a generation before where they had tremendous success. This is just an excuse that's also extremely vague in ignoring WHY they lost that generation and how nothing has changed since then.

The reality is that they never built up a foundation in Japan. They never built up a brand in Europe. They were close to Sony in North America, but games like Uncharted, Spider-Man, The Last of Us, God of War, Horizon... they built a gap in brand awareness.

Even games that failed for Sony like The Order 1886 or weren't super mega hits like Detroit Become Human were still better efforts than what Microsoft was putting out.

Thank you. That statement is right up there with his great games won't shift Xbox sales bullshit. Just the usual excuses and blaming everything but himself for Xbox's woes.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
I did bring up PS Portal as a lower-priced entry point once they do cloud gaming for it. The reason it's probably taking so long is because they'd need to increase the number of deployed servers globally to facilitate demand for Portals accessing via cloud (vs Remote Play) and doing so at PS5 quality settings. SIE's cloud network probably only has enough systems deployed to handle cloud streaming for current PS5 console owners, which would cover current and some future PS+ Premium subscribers for cloud gaming.



I think you're underestimating demand for PS Portal because it'd seem in several markets supply wasn't enough when it could've clearly sold more. As for its showing where a PS handheld would fall at pricing-wise, well keep in mind the Portal probably has a higher profit margin on it than a PS handheld would have from Day 1; a PS handheld wouldn't need as high a profit margin because it'd have a larger volume of units to sale to make up that difference.

You're overestimating the demand for cloud service.

A PS handheld selling for $449 or $499, IMHO that'd basically have to be something capable of natively playing base PS5 games on the go, at base PS5 settings or slightly scaled down using AI-based tech like PSSR. Or something that can play PS6 games at lowered settings through same use of technologies, where developers don't have to do much of the work themselves if any.

A handheld coming out 2026 or later that can only play PS4 games natively isn't going to cut the mustard at a $449 or $499 price point.

No handheld released today is going to "natively" play PS5 games. Once you have to scale the games down they're no longer running natively and that is going to be a requirement for YEARS.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're losing money on PS5s, though. It just means they're making less money per PS5 than they were making at some point earlier, due to changes like component pricing increases.

It literally means that. I know reading can be rough for you sometimes. But if you're operating income increases because you are selling fewer hardware units and your losses from hardware units is lower, that means you are losing money on hardware sales. Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand. It's like they saw this article and decided it was the gold standard and was more relevant than you know actual financial reports.

Also I don't know how else to interpret decreases in losses due to lower unit sales other than that meaning less losses due to manufacturing less units. Which is something they have said was going to be the case anyhow.

If lower unit sales decreases your losses, that means that you're taking a loss on hardware and the less hardware you sell, the less total losses...
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No handheld released today is going to "natively" play PS5 games. Once you have to scale the games down they're no longer running natively and that is going to be a requirement for YEARS.

Hence why Sony shouldn't focus on a handheld. You're right!
 

jm89

Member
Allegedly leaked numbers for Europe hardware posted over at installbase.

Those Xbox numbers 🤐

EU Hardware YTD (July 2024)

PS5 - 1.50M (-23%)
NSW - 0.78M (-32%)
XBS - 0.21M (-38%)

EU Hardware YTD (June 2024)

PS5 - 1.3M (-16%)
NSW - 0.7M (-32%)
XBS - 0.2M (-37%)

As usual:
Console hardware sales cover Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Italy, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.
 
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Hookshot

Banned
If the Xbox is doing worse than the switch then it’s toast. Switch collapsing slower when it has its successor peaking over the horizon is crazy. When would the Xbox even be replaced 2027/28?
 

Tsaki

Member
EU Hardware YTD (July 2024)

PS5 - 1.50M (-23%)
NSW - 0.78M (-32%)
XBS - 0.21M (-38%)

EU Hardware YTD (June 2024)

PS5 - 1.3M (-16%)
NSW - 0.7M (-32%)
XBS - 0.2M (-37%)
So in the month of July:
PS5: 200,000
NSW: 80,000
XB: 10,000

Eager to see the August results with the Wukong boon
 

Woopah

Member
Allegedly leaked numbers for Europe hardware posted over at installbase.

Those Xbox numbers 🤐

EU Hardware YTD (July 2024)

PS5 - 1.50M (-23%)
NSW - 0.78M (-32%)
XBS - 0.21M (-38%)

EU Hardware YTD (June 2024)

PS5 - 1.3M (-16%)
NSW - 0.7M (-32%)
XBS - 0.2M (-37%)

As usual:
Console hardware sales cover Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Italy, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.
Will be interesting to see if the PS5 decline is over or under 20% by the end of the year. Will depend on whether the Pro boost is greater than the Spiderman 2 boost.
 
Not surprised

Was on holiday in Spain a few weeks back and checked out one of the game stores.

Healthy selection of Switch, PS4 and PS5 titles and even a retro section.

Absolutely nothing for Xbox One or Series X (I did spot a couple of 360 games though).
 
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Crazy seeing Nintendo do so well with such an old system. Sony only dropping a little after the massive 2023 year is good. Microsoft still declining and falling behind Xbox One sales, need to add life into that system.
Xbox needs to look in the mirror and realize it's over.
 
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