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[KungFucius]

This whole thing is stupid. How is an evil character being gay negative to gays anyway? Good lord. Evil straight people don't really matter.

A vocal minority of minorities get to cry foul about anything and everything because they have some delusional persecution complex.The reality is that any offense is created in equal or greater part by the offended,

 

[pelican]

Well thank God no one jumped to conclusions then.

Jesus, that post is ridiculous.

 

[Apdiddy]

For me, the issue isn't really that the character is gay or is not gay, but that he seems to be a combination of Raoul Silva & Stansfield. But with fictional works, there's only so much you can do with creating characters before they begin to remind you of other characters.

 

[daycru]

Jesus, that post is ridiculous.

 

[apocaliptic]

Its so typical that a non white person is the bad guy.

99% of bad guys in video games are all white.

 

[bud]

why can't a villain be gay?

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

I swear, anything can be made into an "issue" in this age.

Issues were not brought up like this in gaming in the past. I swear i hate how it is now a days.

 

[MikeDown]

It is almost like people are trying to create controversy where none exists. :/

 

[CHC]

(Deleted - I was being rude)

 

[OSHAN]

 

[Ilúvatar]

Good. Now we can move onto the REAL controversy of having a white man voice a non-white character!

Spoiler

I'm joking but you know it will happen

 

[davepoobond]

why can't a villain be gay?

Gay people can't be evil, isn't that obvious?

 

[legacyzero]

This debate is so counter-productive to the cause. I just don't understand it. I want diversity and equal rights everywhere! Why can't it be in games?

We can't just shout "We want equality in our games!" And then shout "As long as they're not the villain!"

I mean, I'm straight as an arrow. So I can't claim to know, or even have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand. I support everything that GAF backs in equal rights, diversity, etc. But when we keep posting knee-jerk reactions for seemingly the sake of generating controversy, it just doesn't work.

Perfect example is that thread posted the day Far Cry 4's boxart was revealed. We knew literally NOTHING about the game, the characters, the plot, etc, and people are already digging into it, looking for something to yell about.

Good. Now we can move onto the REAL controversy of having a white man voice a non-white character!

Spoiler

I'm joking but you know it will happen

You know, I honestly didn't know it was Troy Baker until yesterday. Blew my mind. At least he's doing a great job at it LOL

 

[Hyun Sai]

Good. Now we can move onto the REAL controversy of having a white man voice a non-white character!

But is the white man straight or gay ? Seems like to be a crucial issue these days.

 

[davepoobond]

This debate is so counter-productive to the cause. I just don't understand it. I want diversity and equal rights everywhere! Why can't it be in games?

We can't just shout "We want equality in our games!" And then shout "As long as they're not the villain!"

I mean, I'm straight as an arrow. So I can't claim to know, or even have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand. I support everything that GAF backs in equal rights, diversity, etc. But when we keep posting knee-jerk reactions for seemingly the sake of generating controversy, it just doesn't work.

Perfect example is that thread posted the day Far Cry 4's boxart was revealed. We knew literally NOTHING about the game, the characters, the plot, etc, and people are already digging into it, looking for something to yell about.

Its a perfect reason why white, straight, plain looking males are used all the time. There is no controversy so heated as being accused of "racist" or "sexist" or "bigoted" for doing something different that is perceived as negative to whatever group you want.

There is an endless steam of normal white macho men in games, and most of them get by without many accusations. Being accused of lack of representation is a lot easier to shrug off than hot topics that are not so insular to games.

 

[ScOULaris]

He may not be gay, but he is definitely fabulous.

Haha. This is the best possible response.

 

[Windom Earle]

Funny how the two dudes who made those ridiculous threads haven't posted yet.

 

[Syrus]

whats worse?

We thought he was gay
or
He isn't gay

I think both thoughts are wrong or stereotyping

 

[T.O.P]

I would've actually like him to be gay


It's fuckin Troy Baker, who could've made a gay villain anymore badass?

 

[dragonelite]

But is the white man straight or gay ? Seems like to be a crucial issue these days.

So its a gay white man doing the Voice of a indian straight guy?

 

[Black Door]

Seems to be a lot of that these days. People seem to be climbing over each other to express outrage at nothing in order to try and look like they care about...something, I guess.

Getting offended on other people's behalf is incredibly offensive, as it's essentially you telling them, in your infinite wisdom as a middle-class white male, what they should be offended about.

I notice that a lot of folks on this forum tend to use this card as a weapon far too frequently to silence folks who may have a differing opinion. The Hyrule Warriors character announcement thread is one really sad example.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

This guy is everything, yet nothing at the same time. He is schrödinger's villian.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

MALE LOOKS FLAMBOYANT AND WEARS PINK; MUST MEAN HOMOSEXUALITY: The "Controversy".

.

If you don't make these assumptions in the first place, you don't end up shocked either way.

 

[jgwhiteus]

Well, even if he's written into the story as being heterosexual / bisexual, I think some of the criticism / controversy was that he was portrayed as being a stereotype "coded" as gay - the colored clothing and fashion, haircut, pose in his artwork (holding another man's head in submission). Yeah, sure, if you go into the script it might say he's in love with a woman, but I believe the concern was the artwork was conveying a shorthand to viewers - "look at this guy and how he doesn't look like a traditional villain, taking on effeminate or stereotypically gay qualities - that's how you know he's bad! Because effeminacy / non-traditional masculinity is bad."

There's a long history of this outside of video games - if you haven't watched it, I recommend the documentary "The Celluloid Closet" about how Hollywood "coded" and sent messages about homosexuality without ever mentioning the word so they could avoid censorship codes. One of the prime examples is Peter Lorre's character in The Maltese Falcon - portrayed as slightly effeminate and obsessed with fondling his walking stick (seriously) - the word "gay" isn't mentioned, but the viewers are meant to understand (consciously or unconsciously) that he's not to be trusted because he's "other".


And on the argument of "well, if you want equality there should be gay villains too!", I think that's a fair argument to make if you can point to all the gay heroes and protagonists as well. This isn't just limited to LGBT people, but also other racial and religious groups - Asians, Muslims, etc. When a minority group is relegated to portraying one type of character, whether positive or negative - the comic relief, the Asian geeky sidekick, the Muslim terrorist, the "black guy who dies first in the movie" - and don't have equal opportunities to portray other types of characters like the romantic lead or the hero, then there's a real concern with unequal and stereotyped representations.

Honestly I don't have a lot of interest in Far Cry 4, I just think arguments saying "equality means being comfortable being portrayed as the bad guy!" are silly when it's difficult if not impossible to point to examples of minorities being portrayed as the good guy.

 

[Santiako]

He's totally going to be the MC's real father isn't he?

 

[neojubei]

Who cares if he is gay. Villains can be gay heck it might even make him more interesting

 

[TetraGenesis]

Finally we get an interesting gay villain and he isn't even homosexual. Way to cop out, Ubisoft.

Hahahahahaha!

 

[Easy_D]

Because most people in Africa aren't black? Capcom adding in a bunch of white and hispanic (I think?) people just made the whole thing even more silly. And there were never any "grass skirt" people in the game that I can remember?

Did you forget the entire swamp village section?

 

[Gav47]

Well thank God no one jumped to conclusions then.

Haha holy shit and that salt on his twitter account.

 

[Mononoke]

Well, even if he's written into the story as being heterosexual / bisexual, I think some of the criticism / controversy was that he was portrayed as being a stereotype "coded" as gay - the colored clothing and fashion, haircut, pose in his artwork (holding another man's head in submission). Yeah, sure, if you go into the script it might say he's in love with a woman, but I believe the concern was the artwork was conveying a shorthand to viewers - "look at this guy and how he doesn't look like a traditional villain, taking on effeminate or stereotypically gay qualities - that's how you know he's bad! Because effeminacy / non-traditional masculinity is bad."

There's a long history of this outside of video games - if you haven't watched it, I recommend the documentary "The Celluloid Closet" about how Hollywood "coded" and sent messages about homosexuality without ever mentioning the word so they could avoid censorship codes. One of the prime examples is Peter Lorre's character in The Maltese Falcon - portrayed as slightly effeminate and obsessed with fondling his walking stick (seriously) - the word "gay" isn't mentioned, but the viewers are meant to understand (consciously or unconsciously) that he's not to be trusted because he's "other".


And on the argument of "well, if you want equality there should be gay villains too!", I think that's a fair argument to make if you can point to all the gay heroes and protagonists as well. This isn't just limited to LGBT people, but also other racial and religious groups - Asians, Muslims, etc. When a minority group is relegated to portraying one type of character, whether positive or negative - the comic relief, the Asian geeky sidekick, the Muslim terrorist, the "black guy who dies first in the movie" - and don't have equal opportunities to portray other types of characters like the romantic lead or the hero, then there's a real concern with unequal and stereotyped representations.

Honestly I don't have a lot of interest in Far Cry 4, I just think arguments saying "equality means being comfortable being portrayed as the bad guy!" are silly when it's difficult if not impossible to point to examples of minorities being portrayed as the good guy.

Great post. I agree it becomes a problem when a stereotype is used to represent an entire group in all representations of said group in the media. But on the other hand, there are people out there (gay or straight) who are flamboyant, eccentric and wear clothes such as that. People like that do exist.

My issue is that I think it's absurd to say that NO fictional character can ever exist with these traits, because they have been used to stereotype in the past. Again, if it's something that is commonly used in the media, then I think it can be offensive. But what if the character isn't even gay? (Why can't he have those traits, why does he have to be gay). I get it, it's because in the past the media has used these traits exclusively to portray gay characters.

But I guess where I'm really trying to go with this is, I think a character should be judged on how they are actually written. And as of now, we don't know if the guy is well written or not. We know nothing about him. I said this earlier, I have no issue DISCUSSING these things. I think it's great to talk about these issues. I don't even have an issue with us discussing how these traits could be offensive. I just don't agree we should be saying it's 100% offensive or condemn Ubisoft until we actually see the product.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

So he's not gay and he's not white.

A certain someone should apologize

He is half-white if my info is correct.

This whole thing is stupid. How is an evil character being gay negative to gays anyway? Good lord. Evil straight people don't really matter.

I guess the complaining was because if he was gay, then it would hugely sterotypical of certain relationships.

I still don't understand why this is a controversy. Seems as contrived as the RE5 nonsense.

I thought the RE5 was justified in causing people to become a bit mad.

Overall IMO Ubisoft was just being sneaky and smart. They never would made the villan the sterotypical white gay man and leave it at that. They would have gone against the stetotypes (As they have done) This is them creating contreversy on purpose and them trying to create a defensive aura around this game. Pardon me for being cynical, but Ubisoft could have avoided this if they released that snippet of summary.

Because most people in Africa aren't black? Capcom adding in a bunch of white and hispanic (I think?) people just made the whole thing even more silly. And there were never any "grass skirt" people in the game that I can remember?

Then replay the game. Why post when you don't have any information.

There are grass skirt guys in the swamp section of the game. However do I recall people already complaining after the first trailer which didn't show any of the grass skirt people

Well I was one where I was defending the game to everyone. Then I play the (terrible) game. I was smug that indeed I was right, there wasn't any racism. Then I got to the section. Twas a terrible day for my internet pride.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Edit: Dammit double post sorry.

 

[Kinyou]

This is them creating contreversy on purpose and them trying to create a defensive aura around this game. Pardon me for being cynical, but Ubisoft could have avoided this if they released that snippet of summary.

 

[WarpathDC]

hes not Gay, hes just Fabulous

And super, thanks for asking

 

[breakfuss]

He may not be gay, but he is definitely fabulous.

Haha!

But, yeah, I never assumed the guy was gay.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Bro you know they're all around us man, I'm just showing the sheeple the light.

Spoiler

I do seriously believe that it was a tactical PR move regardless.

 

[Zombine]

I don't really care about whatever his orientation is supposed to be, just as long as we get another complex character. I was hoping that instead of saying "He's gay" or "he's straight." They make it known that he's such a little shit that he will impose his will on anyone using any means necessary, man or woman.

 

[antitrop]

so we have gone back to wearing pink makes you gay stereotype ....

I thought it was more the combed over, frosted hair.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Ironically, these people were also jumping to conclusions that the character was gay due the box art, how he is dressed, his hair, and his attitude to the main character Ajay in the first 5 minutes of the game.

How is that ironic?
That is a pretty standard base of knowledge to make an assumption from.

Also, it's interesting that they can give this character many stereotypical outward signs of being gay, but as long as Ubisoft says, "Don't worry, he likes girls. He sucks dicks ironically," it suddenly isn't a potentially offensive representation of the gay community?

That said, I think it's fine to have a gay villain and flamboyant antagonists are certainly not a new thing. It is my opinion that they can exist not to vilify homosexuality or flamboyance and whether this character is fictionally gay or not, I don't find his appearance as socially vilifying.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Well thank God no one jumped to conclusions then.

i remember that. what a lemon.

 

[BeforeU]

Why are we arguing over this is beyond me lol
Was everyone so convinced that he was gay, that they have to clarify this.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

I still don't understand why people assumed Pagan Min was gay - which is what I really found offensive in the whole 'controversy' : flamboyant, deranged evil dandy = gay ?
How people can be that retarded ?

 

[Tacitus_]

I thought it was more the combed over, frosted hair.

I saw that all the time when I lived on the coast and next to a bunch of swedish people. For some reason they love it.

 

[Spazznid]

This issue...

It reminds me of when Resident Evil 5 was coming out.

An American agent, and an African agent, in Africa, fighting infected natives, in Africa, where the majority of the population (in that region) are African... And people (press) yelled, "Oh no! RE5 is racist, and there's not enough diversity!"

Despite RE4 taking place in Europe and including 99% European characters, not many (Any?) of which were black, or even dark-skinned.

People like to assume that anthills are molehills, and then try to turn them in to mountains.

Or how Whore of the Orient is getting hate for including the word Orient, even though it's the Artistic Vision of the studio. I can make a painting called Whore of the Orient, and it won't get ridiculed, because of that very reason.

If one feels that the sexual preference and race of a character is that important, I think that says more about one's self.

 

[llamarawk]

this was a crafty design by ubi

 

[Jado]

The worry was that since there are so few gay characters in games and other media already (though we've been making some progress within the past few years) there would be negative connotations to having a gay character in a widely-played AAA game also be a badly-written psychopath.

You also have to consider that equating homosexuality with villainy is a pretty old trope in fiction. There's a common trend in media where being gay is treated as a "symptom" of villainy - as if being gay makes you inherently more perverted and immoral than straight folk... Incidentally, there's also a common trend to emphasize feminine traits in villainous characters. Since being gay is commonly misunderstood as making men more effeminate the two see a lot of overlap.

People calling out those who did jump to conclusions might understand things better if they considered how common these stereotypes are. Those who are often subjected to baseless stereotypes about themselves tend to be more sensitive to even the slightest suggestion of them... Yeah, it led to wild and baseless speculation here but that sensitivity is a direct result of living in a social climate that is often misunderstanding and prejudiced against a crucial and inseverable part of your identity... I don't even think I participated in that conversation but I won't apologize for worrying that he was gay and I don't think others should either.

Oh my god, will yall stop it with this?

LGBT folks have a history of being represented poorly in media. It doesn't make anyone a homophobe to see those common stereotypes and assume the creator was going to make the character gay.

This point of view reminds me of the people who respond to allegations of racism by saying "if you thought it was racist then you're the real racist!".

Thank you both for this. The base level assumptions that this is all about a pink suit, that gay people can't be evil, plus the sheer number of people in this thread applauding and patting themselves on the back for "winning" their brain-dead simplistic,warped interpretation of the argument is disturbing. I always felt there were two discussions at play here, and the bulk of GAF was jumping onto the dumber one not reflected by the above quoted posts.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Or how Whore of the Orient is getting hate for including the word Orient, even though it's the Artistic Vision of the studio. I can make a painting called Whore of the Orient, and it won't get ridiculed, because of that very reason.

If one feels that the sexual preference and race of a character is that important, I think that says more about one's self.

'Whore of the Orient' was the nickname of Shangai during late XIX/early XX. Understandably not an era Chinese people have a lot of affection for.

 

[SketchTheArtist]

This is them creating contreversy on purpose and them trying to create a defensive aura around this game. Pardon me for being cynical, but Ubisoft could have avoided this if they released that snippet of summary.

Or, you know, it could be them trying to show how mob mentality works on the web.

 

[endresults]

Thanks LGBT community, but we already know that gay =/= evil. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Jado]

Thanks LGBT community, but we already know that gay =/= evil. Thanks for your concern.

Yeah. Let's pat ourselves on the back for winning our self-created strawman arguments. Never mind the validity of being the least bit concerned and asking questions about suspect media content. Now those pesky LGBTers can shut the fuck up and leave our precious vidya games alone.